Fisticuffs In The Fourth / What Did Roger Say?

by hawkeye Fri 25 Jan 2013, 4:04 pm

First topic message reminder :

I was unable to watch today's semi between Federer and Murray (although I do have it on record) but reading match reports there is a lot of discussion of this incident in the fourth set when Federer said something to Murray. I'm curious to know what was said and the context. We are always hearing about how all the players are best of buddies but with these two I've never been convinced. Does anyone know what happened?

Here is a video. But it isn't clear what was said and we cannot see the context.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJatAb1IWAs

This is what Federer had to say afterwards about it

Q. You spoke earlier in the week about the good manners that exist between the players. There definitely seemed to be a bit of feeling between the two of you after 6 5 in the fourth. Can you talk about that. Was there an exchange between you?
ROGER FEDERER: I mean, it wasn't a big deal anyway. We just looked at each other one time. That's okay, I think, in a three and a half hour match. We were just checking each other out for bit.
No, I mean, that wasn't a big deal for me. I hope not for him.

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/news/interviews/2013-01-25/201301251359121946973.html

And what Murray says is even more intriguing

Q. How surprised were you by what he shouted when you were at the net at 6 5 in the fourth? You had a funny look on your face at that point.
ANDY MURRAY: I mean, I wasn't that surprised. I mean, stuff like that happens daily in tennis matches. You know, in sport, the stuff that some people say on football pitches and in basketball and all sorts of sports. I mean, it was very, very mild in comparison to what happens in other sports. It's just one of those things.

Q. Did it rattle you at all?
ANDY MURRAY: No. I think it didn't rattle me. I think he raised his game, you know, and that's what happens. Sometimes guys need to get, you know, emotion into the match.
He definitely raised his level and played in that game I think he hit two balls onto the line and was extremely aggressive after that.

Q. Can you repeat what he said?
ANDY MURRAY: It's not relevant what he said. You know, it doesn't really matter. It's something that happens, like I say, all the time on tennis courts, in sport, all the time.
Especially when it's a one on one sort of individual combat. It's not relevant. There's no hard feelings.

Q. Was it a word that we might struggle to get in our newspapers?
ANDY MURRAY: It's not relevant what was said, you know. I'm sure Roger won't talk about it and I have no interest in discussing it either, because, like I say, it happens all the time.
People will want to make a big deal of it and it isn't really a big deal.

My first thought was that Murray had tried to hit Federer with a ball as he did at Wimbledon. But I was wrong. So what did happen?

Have just found a description of what was going on from Kevin Mitchell from the Guardian

Serving for the match at 6-5 in the fourth, Murray stopped in mid-rally then passed Federer on his backhand side. Federer, irked at what he perceived to be gamesmanship, said something that provoked Murray into an ugly sneer in reply. From there until the end, it was no tea party.

When Federer forced a tie-break and took the match into a fifth set, the feelings did not subside. At 15-0 in the second game, Murray had the simple option of passing down the line with a backhand volley but drilled it at Federer, who celebrated when it went long. He was not so happy when he framed a backhand and again Murray broke, for 2-0. They went punch for punch to the final bell and indulged in the most rudimentary of pleasantries at the net after Federer had sent his final forehand long.

Federer smiled. Murray did not. Nobody present could remember such naked antagonism between them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jan/25/andy-murray-roger-federer-australian-open

Not nice! Not nice at all... Mitchell sums up by saying It is one they will want to forget and no doubt they will gloss over it but it was real, all right.

by bogbrush Fri 01 Feb 2013, 8:49 pm

God they're all at it.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=d4c95Oqz_tg

Wayne Rooney is looking positively role model.

by carrieg4 Fri 01 Feb 2013, 8:50 pm

It was a argument the players had way back during a clay match, maybe '06? During the course of it Del Po is alleged to have said something about Murray's mother which obviously did not down well. Got AM nice and fired up to take the match though so cheers Juan Bubbly

by socal1976 Fri 01 Feb 2013, 8:52 pm

If anything Novak's game crumbled as a result of federer's abusive conduct. If anyone benefitted from gamesmanship and rudeness it was one Roger federer, not team Djokovic.

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri 01 Feb 2013, 8:55 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:The idea that it's the worst thing any player's done for years is baffling to me and to most people I suspect.

That's not what I said at all?
I said can you remember anyone aiming comments towards the opponents parents, because I certainly can't.

No, I know it wasn't what you said. Not everything I post refers to something you've posted.

by Haddie-nuff Fri 01 Feb 2013, 8:57 pm

OK I knew there was something involving Andy´s Mum couldn´t remember what

by bogbrush Fri 01 Feb 2013, 8:58 pm

socal1976 wrote:If anything Novak's game crumbled as a result of federer's abusive conduct. If anyone benefitted from gamesmanship and rudeness it was one Roger federer, not team Djokovic.

I thought he retired injured. How many excuses do we need?

I hope it was injury anyway, what kind of mental midget would get put off by that? I'd hesitate to raise the thought that such a guy might crumble in the face of a bye too!

by Danny_1982 Fri 01 Feb 2013, 9:04 pm

carrieg4 wrote:It was a argument the players had way back during a clay match, maybe '06? During the course of it Del Po is alleged to have said something about Murray's mother which obviously did not down well. Got AM nice and fired up to take the match though so cheers Juan

Yeah Carrie, they were having a bit of a bicker with each other when Delpo said "you've always been the same, you and your mother!".... Or something like that. Didn't go down too well as you can imagine.

by HM Murdock Fri 01 Feb 2013, 9:06 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:OK I knew there was something involving Andy´s Mum couldn´t remember what

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muM-UQc_Tnk
About 40 secs in.

I think it was just "you and your mother are always the same".

by carrieg4 Fri 01 Feb 2013, 9:07 pm

I liked AMs reaction though. His tennis was much more aggressive after that point in the match. At one point I was thinking his coach should tell him his opponent had said something about his Mum before every match Laugh

by Danny_1982 Fri 01 Feb 2013, 9:21 pm

Delpo shouldn't really have broght his mom into it... But I remember watching that match and the intensity went up a few notches after that and it was great.

Plus I must say, I love a bit of trash talking. It livens things up a bit.

by HM Murdock Fri 01 Feb 2013, 9:25 pm

carrieg4 wrote:I liked AMs reaction though. His tennis was much more aggressive after that point in the match. At one point I was thinking his coach should tell him his opponent had said something about his Mum before every match

The cause of the argument was Andy thought it was out of order that Del Po hit the ball at him!
Oh, how times have changed!

by carrieg4 Fri 01 Feb 2013, 9:28 pm

HM Murdoch wrote:
carrieg4 wrote:I liked AMs reaction though. His tennis was much more aggressive after that point in the match. At one point I was thinking his coach should tell him his opponent had said something about his Mum before every match
The cause of the argument was Andy thought it was out of order that Del Po hit the ball at him!
Oh, how times have changed!

I think he thought he hit a ball at him then laughed about it which is not very sporting. At least AM apologised when he accidentally caught JWT in a somewhat delicate area Shocked

by Danny_1982 Fri 01 Feb 2013, 9:30 pm

HM Murdoch wrote:
carrieg4 wrote:I liked AMs reaction though. His tennis was much more aggressive after that point in the match. At one point I was thinking his coach should tell him his opponent had said something about his Mum before every match
The cause of the argument was Andy thought it was out of order that Del Po hit the ball at him!
Oh, how times have changed!

Yes Murdoch, and Andy shouldn't have had a problem with a ball being hit at him! A ball hit hard at your opponent is not only a good play, it's a good way to get up in the mental battle.

I've seen Andy deploy the same tactic himself in recent years, and have it fone to him witjout complaint... So I'm glad he's toughened up a bit.

by carrieg4 Fri 01 Feb 2013, 9:34 pm

Yes but it is sporting to at least pretend to look contrite afterwards. Del Potro needs to practice his acting skills

by **laverfan** Fri 01 Feb 2013, 10:02 pm

Carrie/HM ... if you listen to Goodall's comments, the altercation makes a bit more sense. Goodall says that DelPo hit the ball at the net not at Andy. Please listen and let me know if I am misinterpreting Goodall. Fergus tries to keep them apart, which I think was handled well.

by **laverfan** Fri 01 Feb 2013, 10:03 pm

Perhaps Hanescu should get the Edberg award too. Run

by carrieg4 Fri 01 Feb 2013, 10:06 pm

laverfan wrote:Carrie/HM ... if you listen to Goodall's comments, the altercation makes a bit more sense. Goodall says that DelPo hit the ball at the net not at Andy. Please listen and let me know if I am misinterpreting Goodall. Fergus tries to keep them apart, which I think was handled well.

Will do LF. Fergus was a brave man - getting between 6'3" of angry Scotsman and 6'6" of angry Argentinian Yikes

.

I always thought that the incident itself was something and nothing really. AM appears to play well when he is angry at his opponent though...........

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri 01 Feb 2013, 10:09 pm

laverfan wrote:Perhaps Hanescu should get the Edberg award too.

I never blamed Hanescu for that - someone has got to stand up to that sort of thing from yobs.

by **laverfan** Fri 01 Feb 2013, 11:38 pm

carrieg4 wrote:Will do LF.

by **JuliusHMarx** Sat 02 Feb 2013, 12:01 am

This was all a good debate today. Enjoyed it.

by socal1976 Sat 02 Feb 2013, 12:24 am

bogbrush wrote:
socal1976 wrote:If anything Novak's game crumbled as a result of federer's abusive conduct. If anyone benefitted from gamesmanship and rudeness it was one Roger federer, not team Djokovic.
I thought he retired injured. How many excuses do we need?

I hope it was injury anyway, what kind of mental midget would get put off by that? I'd hesitate to raise the thought that such a guy might crumble in the face of a bye too!

A yes, when seeking to change the subject from Federer's public verbal abuse and humiliation of another players mother bring up MTOs and fogninni. Even fair Julius and his pitbull like defense of Federer admits that it was a minor transgression, you claim it was a public service, I didn't know yelling and humiliating women in public is such a virtue. But good attempt to change the subject from federer's aggression.

by socal1976 Sat 02 Feb 2013, 12:26 am

carrieg4 wrote:
laverfan wrote:Carrie/HM ... if you listen to Goodall's comments, the altercation makes a bit more sense. Goodall says that DelPo hit the ball at the net not at Andy. Please listen and let me know if I am misinterpreting Goodall. Fergus tries to keep them apart, which I think was handled well.

Will do LF. Fergus was a brave man - getting between 6'3" of angry Scotsman and 6'6" of angry Argentinian .

I always thought that the incident itself was something and nothing really. AM appears to play well when he is angry at his opponent though...........

Yes at least Del Po picked on someone nearly his size and of the appropriate gender.

by **laverfan** Sat 02 Feb 2013, 12:31 am

socal1976 wrote:Yes at least Del Po picked on someone nearly his size and of the appropriate gender.

Be careful. I know 5'8" women, who will break a man 6'6" in half in 30 seconds or less, never to be able to walk or talk again. Wink

Remember Serena has bigger muscles than Roddick.

by socal1976 Sat 02 Feb 2013, 12:39 am

laverfan wrote:
socal1976 wrote:Yes at least Del Po picked on someone nearly his size and of the appropriate gender.

Be careful. I know 5'8" women, who will break a man 6'6" in half in 30 seconds or less, never to be able to walk or talk again.

Remember Serena has bigger muscles than Roddick.

Yes, true that Laverfan, but I would expect a modicum of chivalry from an 8 time edberg award winner.

by Mad for Chelsea Sat 02 Feb 2013, 12:42 am

socal m'boy, while I admire your perseverance, I can't help but think that trying to convince the Fed fanatics on here that their hero is anything less than perfect is rather like trying to cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with a herring

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQwBq0PcZQA

by **laverfan** Sat 02 Feb 2013, 12:43 am

socal1976 wrote:
laverfan wrote:
socal1976 wrote:Yes at least Del Po picked on someone nearly his size and of the appropriate gender.

Be careful. I know 5'8" women, who will break a man 6'6" in half in 30 seconds or less, never to be able to walk or talk again.

Remember Serena has bigger muscles than Roddick.

Yes, true that Laverfan, but I would expect a modicum of chivalry from an 8 time edberg award winner.

Quite agree. It is rude and uncivilised, no matter what the provocation might have been.

by socal1976 Sat 02 Feb 2013, 12:49 am

Thank you Laverfan, at least it can not be sold to us as a public service. And I can fully see why the man would be tense in regards to the stupid comments she made about the king being dead. But when provoked all manner of behavior does not automatically become acceptable regardless of who you are and what you have accomplished.

by **laverfan** Sat 02 Feb 2013, 12:52 am

This is why I harken back to era of Roger Taylor, et al. (I used the 'era' again... Doh

).

by socal1976 Sat 02 Feb 2013, 12:53 am

Mad for Chelsea wrote:socal m'boy, while I admire your perseverance, I can't help but think that trying to convince the Fed fanatics on here that their hero is anything less than perfect is rather like trying to cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with a herring

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQwBq0PcZQA

MFC, I know that feat is impossible, but I just find it galling that a man can publically use his position in the game to go after this woman and everyone cheers on his conduct and thinks he is the paragon of virtue. I have long since written off being able to convince the fed fans of the questionable sportsmanship of the diva in a cream colored leisure suit. But at least the neutrals see it, and the truth matters despite what the PR team tells us.

by **JuliusHMarx** Sat 02 Feb 2013, 1:14 am

socal1976 wrote:But at least the neutrals see it, and the truth matters despite what the PR team tells us.

By neutrals, I assume you mean MfC, not yourself?

by socal1976 Sat 02 Feb 2013, 1:23 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:
socal1976 wrote:But at least the neutrals see it, and the truth matters despite what the PR team tells us.

By neutrals, I assume you mean MfC, not yourself?

Oh there is no question, since that day I have not been neutral to federer at all. I did like him before that incident, but lets just say I have never been able to see the man with the same uncritical eye I had before. I lost a lot of respect for him, but I think MFC and Laverfan are generally considered neutral. I am not neutral but certainly very objective. And at least you agree that at least it was a transgression, although you try to spin it into something minor. Yes publically humiliating another players mother and yelling at her, using your power position in the game to kick her publically is not a minor transgression despite the provocation. Although I will tell you I was watching that match and I didn't hear anything during the points in terms of noise coming from that box. They were sitting right behind federer and were cheering very intensely. But even if the supposed justification that later came out happened his conduct was way, way, overboard especially since other more appropriate avenues existed for redress.

by **JuliusHMarx** Sat 02 Feb 2013, 1:26 am

And how can you be sure, if, as you say, all they were doing was cheering, that Fed was talking to Djoko's mother? Maybe he was he was talking to his dad or his coach? You seem certain it was directed at his mother.

by socal1976 Sat 02 Feb 2013, 1:36 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:And how can you be sure, if, as you say, all they were doing was cheering, that Fed was talking to Djoko's mother? Maybe he was he was talking to his dad or his coach? You seem certain it was directed at his mother.

I think the bad blood from the king is dead comments come into the picture. And the fact of the matter even if it was his father it would have been disgusting all the same. Plus Marjan Vajda is hardly has a history of bad blood and not many people have found fault with his conduct during matches, and my first reaction and everyone else was that from his court position he was talking to the mother or the parents in general. It was payback for the king is dead comments, and it was public and nasty, even all the federer fans on this thread felt like he directed it at the person in question. Either way going after the father or the mother is equally sick when he could have easily done what every other player would have done and just lodged a complaint to the umpire and seen if that would have worked. I saw it happen in real time and at that time I was cheering for Novak but did not have any dislike of federer, the place he directed the comments it was the logical assumption to make.

by socal1976 Sat 02 Feb 2013, 1:42 am

By the way they zoomed in on the box after fed did that and the woman was visibly upset, she seemed to think it was directed at her. After the incident they were showing the parents on the broadcast, the camera man seemed to have the same instinct I had.

by bogbrush Sat 02 Feb 2013, 7:18 am

On the clip I put up (i) it zoomed on the pair not just her, and (ii) she wasn't upset.

As for your comments they are mostly opinion; "my first reaction", "it was payback". You're mixing up words like "the truth" with your made up stuff. Hardly evidence standard is it?

You always forget the round of applause. Thats a fact. People seemed to believe it was warranted. Perhaps it had been going on in the games preceding the incident? That possibility isn't unrealistic.

by bogbrush Sat 02 Feb 2013, 7:29 am

Mad for Chelsea wrote:socal m'boy, while I admire your perseverance, I can't help but think that trying to convince the Fed fanatics on here that their hero is anything less than perfect is rather like trying to cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with a herring

Bit silly, but not unexpected.

A quick check on the thread will see me criticise his behaviour post W 09, just thrown in as n example.

His on court behaviour, overall, is at least as good as his peers. In particular the absence of habitual gamesmanship.

by socal1976 Sat 02 Feb 2013, 7:45 am

Except I watched the match BB, and the wizard of Oz that is federer's sportsmanship was exposed to me on that day, I don't care what the provocation was. Like a civilized human being address you comments to the officials and see if tha works. I watched the match, didn't notice anything out of place until federer decided to go postal on the woman. Funny you claim that she wasn't upset but earlier in thread you were chuckling up how much of a yob she is and how federer did a public service by bringing her down a peg. As I said before even assuming the provocation in question, which I don't remember from watching that match, his conduct was beyond the pale. He does that crap to my mother in some setting, I lay his ass out, and spend a night in jail. Maybe that is my hyper protective middle eastern man attitude but that sheet don't fly with me, I don't care if you are the diva cream colored leisure suit or not.

by Haddie-nuff Sat 02 Feb 2013, 7:45 am

bogbrush wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:socal m'boy, while I admire your perseverance, I can't help but think that trying to convince the Fed fanatics on here that their hero is anything less than perfect is rather like trying to cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with a herring
Bit silly, but not unexpected.

A quick check on the thread will see me criticise his behaviour post W 09, just thrown in as n example.

His on court behaviour, overall, is at least as good as his peers. In particular the absence of habitual gamesmanship.

I wondered how long it would take you !!! Never to disappoint BB so predictable. Well if you are clutching at straws you wont have to wait much longer picard

by hawkeye Sat 02 Feb 2013, 8:05 am

What should a sporting person do when faced with behavior that is unsporting?

a) Say nothing

b) Say something

Of course if a sporting person is brave enough they should say something.

by socal1976 Sat 02 Feb 2013, 8:08 am

Yes say something to the umpire and tournament officials the proper channels that all civilized people are expected to follow. Somehow at that time in question Hawkeye dozens of other players including the supposed hothead Andy murray managed to play many matches with Djokovic's parents in the stands without going postal on his box, imagine that.

by bogbrush Sat 02 Feb 2013, 8:18 am

socal1976 wrote:Except I watched the match BB, and the wizard of Oz that is federer's sportsmanship was exposed to me on that day, I don't care what the provocation was. Like a civilized human being address you comments to the officials and see if tha works. I watched the match, didn't notice anything out of place until federer decided to go postal on the woman. Funny you claim that she wasn't upset but earlier in thread you were chuckling up how much of a yob she is and how federer did a public service by bringing her down a peg. As I said before even assuming the provocation in question, which I don't remember from watching that match, his conduct was beyond the pale. He does that crap to my mother in some setting, I lay his ass out, and spend a night in jail. Maybe that is my hyper protective middle eastern man attitude but that sheet don't fly with me, I don't care if you are the diva cream colored leisure suit or not.

(i) you didn't hear what was said, so your understanding of the incident is incomplete
(ii) 'go postal' = say "be quiet"? Ridiculous exaggeration is your friend if it allows you to misrepresent a stern instruction as threatening.*
(iii) my approval of yobbishness being put does down not require that she be upset, you have put forward a non sequitur there.
(iv) your inclination to violence is often advertised on here but not really relevant.
(v) is it really ok to attribute characteristics to racial background like that? I've heard you make serious allegations to people on here for that behaviour.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_postal

It's hard to know whether your posts on this subject are trolling or just a bit emotionally distorted. At the very least you don't seem in the best place to comment about calm discourse.

by bogbrush Sat 02 Feb 2013, 8:27 am

Haddie-nuff wrote:
I wondered how long it would take you !!! Never to disappoint BB so predictable. Well if you are clutching at straws you wont have to wait much longer

If you have a point to make, deecoco, could you write it in a way that is comprehensible?

by socal1976 Sat 02 Feb 2013, 8:29 am

BB, I have no inclination to violence in fact I abhor it, but there are things in life that are sacred and beyond the pale. Like verbally yelling at another competitors mother. I heard federer yell be quiet at her in a wildly aggressive manner in a setting that would be humiliating and furthermore abusive. I watched the match and even you admitted that after said conduct by federer his family dissappeared from tennis matches, I wonder why? Maybe she didn't want to be targeted for humiliation and public scorn by the beloved goat. And as I said I don't care what the provocation was, address your complaints to the umpire somehow every other opponent djokovic has had managed to avoid humiliating his mother in public and yelling at her, maybe they should get some edberg awards because federer certainly isn't setting the bar very high.

PS I would take it as a point of honor following that conduct to either get my assed kicked or kick some ass, no wonder Djokovic was discombobulated from said conduct. It was visible everyone in his box was disturbed and so was he, he just wanted to get off the court and I dont' blame him.

by Haddie-nuff Sat 02 Feb 2013, 8:30 am

my name is haddie Mac as you well know... I dont think I have to make it any clearer you know what your implying and I understand it.. simples

by socal1976 Sat 02 Feb 2013, 8:33 am

It worked for federer though he won the match, but lost my respect forever it isn't worth much as you would say he doesn't even know I exist, but I know exactly what happened on that day and won't let it be pawned off as a public service.

by bogbrush Sat 02 Feb 2013, 8:36 am

socal1976 wrote:BB, I have no inclination to violence in fact I abhor it, but there are things in life that are sacred and beyond the pale. Like verbally yelling at another competitors mother. I heard federer yell be quiet at her in a wildly aggressive manner in a setting that would be humiliating and furthermore abusive. I watched the match and even you admitted that after said conduct by federer his family dissappeared from tennis matches, I wonder why? Maybe she didn't want to be targeted for humiliation and public scorn by the beloved goat. And as I said I don't care what the provocation was, address your complaints to the umpire somehow every other opponent djokovic has had managed to avoid humiliating his mother in public and yelling at her, maybe they should get some edberg awards because federer certainly isn't setting the bar very high.

PS I would take it as a point of honor following that conduct to either get my assed kicked or kick some ass, no wonder Djokovic was discombobulated from said conduct. It was visible everyone in his box was disturbed and so was he, he just wanted to get off the court and I dont' blame him.

"Wildly aggressive"

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fpd23dTcT6c

God, the man is incoherent! Laugh

So you have no propensity to violence, yet refer to it repeatedly on the forum and again in your rebuttal post regard it as a point of honour. Would you "go postal"?

by bogbrush Sat 02 Feb 2013, 8:36 am

socal1976 wrote:It worked for federer though he won the match, but lost my respect forever it isn't worth much as you would say he doesn't even know I exist, but I know exactly what happened on that day and won't let it be pawned off as a public service.

He must be devastated.

Actually, Djokovic retired injured.

by bogbrush Sat 02 Feb 2013, 8:37 am

Haddie-nuff wrote:my name is haddie Mac as you well know... I dont think I have to make it any clearer you know what your implying and I understand it.. simples

You're deecoco though, aren't you?

You certainly write like you used to.

by Haddie-nuff Sat 02 Feb 2013, 8:42 am

Why because I hit a raw nerve Mac... (and you certainly write like you used to)

Dont try scoring points by trying to wind me up BB you are just making yourself look childish and rude.. aim your tantrums at the one who is REALLY upsetting you.

by socal1976 Sat 02 Feb 2013, 8:46 am

Like I said, I have no propensity for violence, haven't hit a man in anger since I was 16 years old, that is 20 years and counting and I plan on never doing it again. I just don't understand why federer didn't address his comments to the official sitting in the high chair. I also don't understand why every other opponent Djoko has had managed to avoid going wild eyed into his box. Maybe they are all just better behaved than the 8 time edberg award winner.

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