Barbarians v New Zealand 1973

I just wanted to acknowledge that it is the 40th anniversary of that memorable game and that memorable try today. I was at the game as an11 year old with my mate David Howells from Glynneath. First ever game of international rugby I ever watched. Stuck at the front of the South Enclosure up against the green railings - surreal. I remember Grant Batty trying to fight 1/2 the Baa Baas right in front of us. Great memory of a Brian Williams tackle in full flight. I remember me and Dai watching the players walk to the ground with their kit bags on their backs.What a day and "what a score"

I didn't realise you were that old Ruby!

A lot of people say that Cyril - I pass for about 43 quite easy but thankfully my enthusiasm and immaturity keep me young

Cheers!

Two things that stick out for me in that match.

The AB almost paid lip service to the Haka, when you compare it to the great occasion the Haka is today, it almost makes you cringe when you watch thw 1973 effort.

There was a 'better' try scored by the Baa Baas, than 'that try' that came later in the match but was disallowed.

A brilliant Barbarians win against the WORST [by the record]All Blacks touring Team. THE Last full length Tour by them of this country
incidentally The Haka was abandoned in the !970`s.BUT was revived by poular demand by the opposing sides

Sorry folks escaped from the instituition again they`ll never catch me

Jimpy wrote:Two things that stick out for me in that match.

The AB almost paid lip service to the Haka, when you compare it to the great occasion the Haka is today, it almost makes you cringe when you watch thw 1973 effort.

There was a 'better' try scored by the Baa Baas, than 'that try' that came later in the match but was disallowed.

I watched the full match last year, and agree with you on the disallowed one.

Something I didn't know until I read the big write up on "the try" in the Time last week was that that game was the only match on tour in 1973 where the ABs did the Haka - they'd been criticised widely in the UK media for not doing it (and for generally being grumpy ****s)

I think the grumpy part was elevated after the stamping on JPR's face in one of the early games. That was a magnificent All Blacks side IMO - A complete team with Kirkpatrick at the helm - What a magnificent game all round. Sid Going v Edwards was a great tussle. The stuff of legends

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Jimpy wrote:There was a 'better' try scored by the Baa Baas, than 'that try' that came later in the match but was disallowed.

I watched the full match last year, and agree with you on the disallowed one.

Are you talking about the try 'scored' by John Dawes that was ruled out for a forward pass?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Jimpy wrote:There was a 'better' try scored by the Baa Baas, than 'that try' that came later in the match but was disallowed.

I watched the full match last year, and agree with you on the disallowed one.

Are you talking about the try 'scored' by John Dawes that was ruled out for a forward pass?

That is the one.

RubyGuby wrote:I think the grumpy part was elevated after the stamping on JPR's face in one of the early games. That was a magnificent All Blacks side IMO - A complete team with Kirkpatrick at the helm - What a magnificent game all round. Sid Going v Edwards was a great tussle. The stuff of legends

The Keith Murdoch incident didn't help much either - I gather the feeling in the ABs camp was that the incident had been blown out of proportion, and the team blamed the media & home unions for pressurising ABs management into sending him home.

Jimpy wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Jimpy wrote:There was a 'better' try scored by the Baa Baas, than 'that try' that came later in the match but was disallowed.

I watched the full match last year, and agree with you on the disallowed one.

Are you talking about the try 'scored' by John Dawes that was ruled out for a forward pass?

That is the one.

Here it is, from 36m on the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXBIXqvNfwA&playnext=1&list=PL19BA3FE14144BC4A&feature=results_video

I wish there was more footage of David Duckham on Youtube than there is.

Luckless,
thanks I'd forgotten how well Duckham could play. The lead up to the Dawes 'try' showed some marvellous interplay by all concerned.
I was also a bit surprised to see how well the ABs scrummaged at 36 mins. Kicking off that, was a stupid waste of quality ball off the advancing scrum.
But great memories from back in the day.

Duckham plays a great part in JPR's try near the end of the match, too. Hell of a player.

He was Dai Duckham that day - great bodyswerve

I remember the dummy that Duckham threw...not only was it bought by the All Blacks, it bought the cameraman too

Was Derek Quinnell's pass to Gareth Edwards not forward for "that try"?

Duckham was an absolute legend.

I think it looked like Quinnell kicked ahead, but straight into an AB and Edwards picked up the ricochet.

emack2 wrote:A brilliant Barbarians win against the WORST [by the record]All Blacks touring Team. THE Last full length Tour by them of this country
incidentally The Haka was abandoned in the !970`s.BUT was revived by poular demand by the opposing sides

I was at the match. Almost as good as the win was Kirkpatrick's remark afterwards that the Baa-Baas had 'pulled the wool over our eyes' - not just outplayed but outthought.

Great comments from Kirkpatrick

hello new poster to the site tonight only. followed in a link searching for the kick off times and feel like i might have found some likewise spirits from reading your comments. what a breathe of fresh air after after some of the rugby sites that look like a mire of childish squabbling. so as a fellow of some age myself i can say i wasnt lucky enough to be at the game but "those were the days" not so much rugby to satisfy the appetite and these matches really had some atmosphere. they really got the blood pumping. those days the raw talent of the players showed thru more space to move and less high tech analysing of the games let the flair of individuals show thru. i put that game up there with some of the top legends of all time with the england triumph in 2003 and the 1971 lions. in those days no doubt about it the welsh boyos had the best players in the world and we looked on with green eyed envy! today the level of professional systems in england put paid to that and level the field. as i said "those were the days"

2 of Wales great legends of the 1970's Mervyn Davies and Gerald Davies both had to miss that particular match. I just wonder now what the final score would have been had they both played as although that was still a fine Barbarians side that took the field V NZ that day, I would rather still have Gerald Davies instead of John Bevan and Mervyn Davies instead of Derek Quinnell any day of the week.

Interesting perspective gboycottnut.

Here in New Zealand the game wasnt regarded as all that important as it wasnt a test match. it probably explains some of the selections in the New Zealand team.
For example Graham Whiting for Keith Murdoch,Ron Urlich for Tane Norton Alister scown for Alaster Sutherland, Bob Burgess for either Stevens or Dougan, Ian Hurst for anyone. Plus Sid Going played most of the game on one leg.

Auckland - you need to move on from this defeat mate

I just have a lot of difficulty adjusting to defeat(s). I know I must learn how to accept it in the future should the situation arise again.

Trouble for you Auckland is you dont get much practice at it -

Oh yes I do, take a look at Auckland in the Super xv....

I watched a few minutes up to the Dawes disallowed try. Two things struck me. Players today would never be that cavalier with possession. Secondly, the standard of hymns (yes hymns not just choruses) from the stands was outstanding. In Welsh, tenors and bass. Makes you proud, but also sad that such a rich culture is lost.

Did you see me in the crowd Glas

And talking of lost cultures that was the All Blacks 28 th match of a 32 match tour...

Working men who earned a wage by toil, could afford to attend internationals, had a Sunday School upbringing and left the wife at home. And a young Guby.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Interesting perspective gboycottnut.

Here in New Zealand the game wasnt regarded as all that important as it wasnt a test match. it probably explains some of the selections in the New Zealand team.
For example Graham Whiting for Keith Murdoch,Ron Urlich for Tane Norton Alister scown for Alaster Sutherland, Bob Burgess for either Stevens or Dougan, Ian Hurst for anyone. Plus Sid Going played most of the game on one leg.

Well the All Blacks backrow that day lacked a flanker who had pace. I mean having Alister Scown, Ian Kirkpatrick and Alex Wyllie as your backrow trio V a team of great players that are going to run the ball at you from everywhere on the pitch was a disaster that was waiting to happen that day to the All Blacks. I'm sure that Ken Stewart was on that 1972 tour and if so he should have played V the Baabaas. As should Bruce Robertson who did play V the Baabaas the following year at Twickenham.

gboycottnut wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Interesting perspective gboycottnut.

Here in New Zealand the game wasnt regarded as all that important as it wasnt a test match. it probably explains some of the selections in the New Zealand team.
For example Graham Whiting for Keith Murdoch,Ron Urlich for Tane Norton Alister scown for Alaster Sutherland, Bob Burgess for either Stevens or Dougan, Ian Hurst for anyone. Plus Sid Going played most of the game on one leg.

Well the All Blacks backrow that day lacked a flanker who had pace. I mean having Alister Scown, Ian Kirkpatrick and Alex Wyllie as your backrow trio V a team of great players that are going to run the ball at you from everywhere on the pitch was a disaster that was waiting to happen that day to the All Blacks. I'm sure that Ken Stewart was on that 1972 tour and if so he should have played V the Baabaas. As should Bruce Robertson who did play V the Baabaas the following year at Twickenham.

I thought Bruce Robinson did play?

Glas a du wrote:Working men who earned a wage by toil, could afford to attend internationals, had a Sunday School upbringing and left the wife at home. And a young Guby.

Tickets were cheaper Glas - me and Dai lived on a nice council estate - old man worked in the steelworks

That was my point Guby. Even when I was school decades later ( ) I could get an East Terrace for £12. My pocket money for a week was £5. A pint of beer was £1.25. Ten pints for a ticket. There are no £25 tickets now and beer has gone up more than most things.

Glas a du wrote:That was my point Guby. Even when I was school decades later ( ) I could get an East Terrace for £12. My pocket money for a week was £5. A pint of beer was £1.25. Ten pints for a ticket. There are no £25 tickets now and beer has gone up more than most things.

Sounds like a sketch from Monty Mython

Before my thyme

I thought it was a great match. You have to watch it in full to appreciate that Baa baas side- same with the one in 74 at twickers- that was great as well. David Duckham really stands out if you take the time to view them both in full.

The AB's had been on a bit of a downer after the Murdoch affair and even though I was a kid at the time kiwis were just wanting the tour to end. But no taking it away from that Baa baas side, particularly the way they played- pity the next 20 odd years didnt have anything like it.

No surprise it was the last of the big tours- the 1977 Lions perhaps the VERY last one with 26 matches including Fiji (where they lost alsoprobably trying to holiday, win and get over the 4th test bruises at the same time).

One of the things you have to remember back in the days of major tours 1972-3 was THE Last full length NZ one.
Barbarian matches were treated as a festival game running from everywhere,long cutout passes NO Penalty kicks at Goal.
THE Game was more important than the result,NO AB likes losing ANY Match BUT these were`nt played as test Matchs then.[1961 Boks match excepted].
The All Blacks sides of the early 1970`s tried to apply the Running Game Of Fred Allen .WITHOUT establishing the Forward platform first the hard men had gone Meads [Both],Tremain,Grey,Lochore,Laidlaw etc.
HAD Colin Meads managed one last Tour as Senior Pro the results may have been better.
Where as in the 50`s and 60`s there was no loose trio as such more tight-loose .In the 1970`s loose forwards came into there own but the Tight forwards were`nt deployed in the same way.
For example Peter Whiting and Andy Haden the prime Line forwards seldom played together.Hamish Macdonald virtually a Non -Jumper at 4 shades of Brad Thorn.

Taylorman wrote:I thought it was a great match. You have to watch it in full to appreciate that Baa baas side- same with the one in 74 at twickers- that was great as well. David Duckham really stands out if you take the time to view them both in full.

The AB's had been on a bit of a downer after the Murdoch affair and even though I was a kid at the time kiwis were just wanting the tour to end. But no taking it away from that Baa baas side, particularly the way they played- pity the next 20 odd years didnt have anything like it.

No surprise it was the last of the big tours- the 1977 Lions perhaps the VERY last one with 26 matches including Fiji (where they lost alsoprobably trying to holiday, win and get over the 4th test bruises at the same time).

It is interesting comparing the Baabaas side of 1973 and the one that played at Twickenham in 1974. The one in 1974 had a better forward pack as it had all 8 of the forwards that played for the British Lions V SA earlier that year (including hard men like Gordon Brown, Roger Uttley, Ian McLauchlin). The backs of the 1973 side were better than those of the 1974 side as the 1974 side had 2 average centres in Englishmen Priest and Warfield with the flyhalf being John Bevan and Andy Irvine at full-back, whereas the 1973 side had backs which were basically loaded with players from the 1971 British Lions side apart from Phil Bennett at flyhalf who was in the Wales team at that time as the natural successor for the retired Barry John, with the centres in that 1973 Baabaas side being the great Mike Gibson and the captain of the 1971 British Lions John Dawes who had retired by the start of 1972 (would have been great and interesting to see Barry John also come out of retirement just for that Baabaas match V NZ in 1973, sadly this never happened and I do wonder whether anyone bothered to ask Barry if he wanted to play just for that match).

aucklandlaurie wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Interesting perspective gboycottnut.

Here in New Zealand the game wasnt regarded as all that important as it wasnt a test match. it probably explains some of the selections in the New Zealand team.
For example Graham Whiting for Keith Murdoch,Ron Urlich for Tane Norton Alister scown for Alaster Sutherland, Bob Burgess for either Stevens or Dougan, Ian Hurst for anyone. Plus Sid Going played most of the game on one leg.

Well the All Blacks backrow that day lacked a flanker who had pace. I mean having Alister Scown, Ian Kirkpatrick and Alex Wyllie as your backrow trio V a team of great players that are going to run the ball at you from everywhere on the pitch was a disaster that was waiting to happen that day to the All Blacks. I'm sure that Ken Stewart was on that 1972 tour and if so he should have played V the Baabaas. As should Bruce Robertson who did play V the Baabaas the following year at Twickenham.

I thought Bruce Robinson did play?

That was Duncan Robertson who partnered Ian Hurst at centre, with Bob Burgess at flyhalf and Joe Karam at fullback.

gboycottnut wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Interesting perspective gboycottnut.

Here in New Zealand the game wasnt regarded as all that important as it wasnt a test match. it probably explains some of the selections in the New Zealand team.
For example Graham Whiting for Keith Murdoch,Ron Urlich for Tane Norton Alister scown for Alaster Sutherland, Bob Burgess for either Stevens or Dougan, Ian Hurst for anyone. Plus Sid Going played most of the game on one leg.

Well the All Blacks backrow that day lacked a flanker who had pace. I mean having Alister Scown, Ian Kirkpatrick and Alex Wyllie as your backrow trio V a team of great players that are going to run the ball at you from everywhere on the pitch was a disaster that was waiting to happen that day to the All Blacks. I'm sure that Ken Stewart was on that 1972 tour and if so he should have played V the Baabaas. As should Bruce Robertson who did play V the Baabaas the following year at Twickenham.

I thought Bruce Robinson did play?

That was Duncan Robertson who partnered Ian Hurst at centre, with Bob Burgess at flyhalf and Joe Karam at fullback.

Gboycott:
I went to check it out in my trusty "men in Black" but it was no use as the game doesnt appear in there because it wasnt a test match. But from another source I find that Bruce Robertson broke his thumb and didnt play against the Barbarians.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Interesting perspective gboycottnut.

Here in New Zealand the game wasnt regarded as all that important as it wasnt a test match. it probably explains some of the selections in the New Zealand team.
For example Graham Whiting for Keith Murdoch,Ron Urlich for Tane Norton Alister scown for Alaster Sutherland, Bob Burgess for either Stevens or Dougan, Ian Hurst for anyone. Plus Sid Going played most of the game on one leg.

Well the All Blacks backrow that day lacked a flanker who had pace. I mean having Alister Scown, Ian Kirkpatrick and Alex Wyllie as your backrow trio V a team of great players that are going to run the ball at you from everywhere on the pitch was a disaster that was waiting to happen that day to the All Blacks. I'm sure that Ken Stewart was on that 1972 tour and if so he should have played V the Baabaas. As should Bruce Robertson who did play V the Baabaas the following year at Twickenham.

I thought Bruce Robinson did play?

That was Duncan Robertson who partnered Ian Hurst at centre, with Bob Burgess at flyhalf and Joe Karam at fullback.

Gboycott:
I went to check it out in my trusty "men in Black" but it was no use as the game doesnt appear in there because it wasnt a test match. But from another source I find that Bruce Robertson broke his thumb and didnt play against the Barbarians.

Well Bruce Robertson was definitely on that 1972 tour of the UK as he played V Scotland,England and Ireland on that tour. However I have just watched the beginning of that particular 1973 match that I have on video tape and there is a Robertson named at centre as B.J.Robertson when they showed the starting lineups for each team. Anyway this could be wrong as the Barbarians lineup named by the BBC was wrong that day in that David Duckham was named at 11 with John Bevan at 14 when in actual fact Duckham played at 14 with Bevan at 11.

Found out now that Bruce Robertson did indeed play in that match as the BBC camera caught a glimpse of him running back to his backline after he had kicked the ball into touch. Anyway for you aucklandLaurie, the All Blacks team that day was as follows:-

15 Joe Karam
14 Bryan Williams
13 Bruce Robertson
12 Ian Hurst
11 Grant Batty
10 Bob Burgess
9 Sid Going
1 Graham Whiting
2 Ron Urlich
3 Kent Lambert
4 Hamish McDonald
5 Peter Whiting
6 Alister Scown
7 Ian Kirkpatrick
8 Alex Wyllie

Replacement :- Lindsay Colling for Sid Going

Apart from the the backrow which lacked a real openside flanker who had pace like a Ken Stewart, it was a pretty good All Blacks side. Interestingly the great NZ lineout forward Sam Strahan who toured the UK in 1967 didn't tour the UK with the All Blacks in 1972 although he did play one more match for NZ V England later in 1973.

I had 3 tickets through my rugby club, for Twickenham main West Stand for the November 1983 England NZ match.
Me and my father in law were going but the 3rd ticket was not taken. I stood on the road hollering out for a buyer. Took a while, a guy slid up and asked me the price, and was happy I only wanted face value to offload it. I think it was about £7.50 ?
This was NZ at Twickenham. Today you can't even get a ticket anywhere outside corp hospitality, so popular had rugby become.

Is that due to popularity Greg or just corporate hospitality entertaining non-rugby folk out for a jolly wheeze

Ruby,
yes, loadsa London suits invited to quaff champers at HQ who know nothing about rugby. Tragic, but there it is.
I prefer to watch it in a pub, with good camera angles, close ups, and some commentary. If that does not sound like sour (champers) grapes. Oh well. Where is HERSH and his range rover when you need him ?

Gregor, that's a great point. But I was in Dublin in the fist game last year. I wouldnt swap the experience for the World. Every now and again you just can not beat a live game, especially a belter like that. OK you have to sit through occasional dross, but that just emphasises the great games. Having said that I would prefer to travel than go to Cardiff. Paris this year, depending on the schedule for next year (as I have to go to the first game) to accomodate lambing.

I'm with Gregor on this Glas but I respect your opinion etc (for a change) - I remember getting over excited at the Millenium a few years ago and the people next to me didn't seem pleased (they were welsh) - A pub in Glynneath is just fine - in fact its fecking great