Djokovic in Nadals rear-view mirror

First topic message reminder :

For the last few years it has been discussed whether Nadal can catch Federer in terms of greatness, can he catch his slam record?

Just 5 slams separated them them after the 2012 French Open and with the Spaniard being 5 years younger it was looking increasingly likely.

Of course there was still weeks at Number 1 but with 5 years to make up ground and with his superior head 2 head it had been said that perhaps Nadal only needed to make it close in terms of statistics to go down as the greater player, and perhaps the greatest of them all.

Fast forward 7 months, Federer has managed to widen the gap to 6 slams, added another chunk of weeks at World Number 1, and in the meantime a certain Serb collected a sixth grand slam, moving him within 5 slams of Nadal.

As is stands, the Spaniard has 102 weeks at Number 1 falling very short of Federer's new tally of 302. However, the Serbian has snuck up to 66 weeks just 36 weeks shy of Nadal.

At the end of 2012 Novak achieved his second successive year end Number 1, equalling him with Rafa, and in the mean time collected his 2nd year end end championship, a title that has so far eluded the Spaniard.

Quite incredibly, for so long the talk was if Rafa could surpass Roger, in the mean time Novak has snuck up on Rafa and is gaining on him at a much faster pace than Nadal is on Federer.

Their head to head is at the moment 19-14 to the Spaniard, but over the coming years were that to change and the likelihood that Novak will have more weeks at number 1 than Rafa when their careers are done, it could be quite conceivable Djokovic eventually eclipses Nadal's career. Especially if he were to get the French Open before his career is out.

It had been refuted by many Federer fans that Nadal could surpass Federer citing Weeks at Number 1 and 5-Year end Number 1 rankings.

The amazing thing is, Djokovic could come within just a few slams of Nadal, and when all is said and done could have a superior head 2 head record over him. And unlike Federer, Nadal may not be able to boast a longer period at Number 1 with Djokovic looking likely to surpass Nadal in that department also.

Seems quite inconceivable a few years ago, but Djokovic still has a few things to do but if he does we could be looking back on Djokovic being the better player almost out of nowhere. It could be quite similar to Lendl, McEnroe and Borg, with McEnroe chasing down Borg before actually being caught himself by Lendl.

As it stands, Nadal is more at risk of being caught by Djokovic than Federer is by Nadal. However, Nadal may have one final say in the matter in the coming years himself

I feel very dull having just had the one name!

606v2 is a new beginning for all of us Haddie. Much better moderated than 606 so we can all enjoy the tennis and the debate. Good to have you here under any user name.

bogbrush wrote:Predictive text moment. See edit.

I very nearly did... my God there was one on there I could have swung for

carrieg4 wrote:I feel very dull having just had the one name!

606v2 is a new beginning for all of us Haddie. Much better moderated than 606 so we can all enjoy the tennis and the debate. Good to have you here under any user name.

Thank you carriege ... nice to have you too.. and having only one name is easier though I think Ill stick with Haddie now.

bogbrush wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Look at my name .. I quit 606 because of the vitriol that was on there at the time especially when you were a Nadal fan.. I quit forum´s for some while until I came here. New beginnings I thought.

It's not like you killed anyone.

Though andy did disappear very suddenly. Unless....... is he here too?

Andy1073?? I doubt it.. He had stopped posting on old 606 long before it was closed down...

bogbrush wrote:Predictive text moment. See edit.

Yeah, bloody predictive testicles

i have only known BB as bogbrush, and our interactions have been most eventfull. It would be nice if some others came to our humble abode. I have to say that we got some of the better members, but could always use a little more. Old 606 was fun battleground for certain.

BTW anyone remember glancing blow and Sampras11? They had an obsession with Murray being too old to win a first slam. I remember one (or maybe both) of them stating that they had a large bet on Murray never winning a slam

It made the victory all the sweeter

JuliusHMarx wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Predictive text moment. See edit.

Yeah, bloody predictive testicles

JULIUS and you a Mod too... Im quite

Almost as many posts off topic now than on it ......!!....

Haddie-nuff wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Predictive text moment. See edit.

Yeah, bloody predictive testicles

JULIUS and you a Mod too... Im quite

It wasn't me, it was the predictive tenement!

carrieg4 wrote:BTW anyone remember glancing blow and Sampras11? They had an obsession with Murray being too old to win a first slam. I remember one (or maybe both) of them stating that they had a large bet on Murray never winning a slam

It made the victory all the sweeter

There was another called murray_slamless_no hoper and stretford-ender. Two who were adamant Murray would never win a slam and virtual match point who is here now.

Mac definitely had a knife edge when I first knew him.. somewhat "cutting" at times if you will pardon the pun. Mellowed somehat BB

CaledonianCraig wrote:....and virtual match point who is here now.

Why do I feel like I don't know anything all of a sudden?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Predictive text moment. See edit.

Yeah, bloody predictive testicles

lol

I had forgotten about the first two (or maybe repressed). I hope they put large bets on too

JuliusHMarx wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:....and virtual match point who is here now.

Why do I feel like I don't know anything all of a sudden?

That one's easy.

Repetitive strain injury

Nobody even cared much to criticize Djokovic, he was way under the radar at 606, there were the murray bashers, the fed bashers, and a giant cabal of Nadal haters. But djokovic was not even on anyone's radar other than Nitb and me and I didn't post there quite as often as I do here.

emancipator wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:....and virtual match point who is here now.

Why do I feel like I don't know anything all of a sudden?

That one's easy.

Repetitive strain injury

No, that's why my wrist hurts.

Haddie-nuff wrote:Mac definitely had a knife edge when I first knew him.. somewhat "cutting" at times if you will pardon the pun. Mellowed somehat BB

Yes he even cheered for Nadal in last years FO and talked about what a wonderful accomplishment 7 RG titles was, quite an evolution.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

emancipator wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:....and virtual match point who is here now.

Why do I feel like I don't know anything all of a sudden?

That one's easy.

Repetitive strain injury

No, that's why my wrist hurts.

Julius I would like to think that there is a suitable response to that remark but I can´t think of one this minute

socal1976 wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Mac definitely had a knife edge when I first knew him.. somewhat "cutting" at times if you will pardon the pun. Mellowed somehat BB

Yes he even cheered for Nadal in last years FO and talked about what a wonderful accomplishment 7 RG titles was, quite an evolution.

Everything I do has a purpose.

Bb I took your cheering for nadal as a big compliment to djoko was I wrong to make that assumption

socal1976 wrote:Bb I took your cheering for nadal as a big compliment to djoko was I wrong to make that assumption

Mostly, yes. I did actually want him to get it for good reasons. Seriously. I reckon he 'deserved' it.

Thought his time was running out.

And maybe djoko didn't deserve to accomplish 4 slams in a row something the even the maestro failed to accomplish that didn't have anything to do with your decision making

If you can make bb cheer for nadal as a player you know you are doing something right

I didn't want that, true, but it was maybe 35% of it.

Not necessarily Socal.. it takes some, longer than others, to see what was blatantly obvious to us Nadal fans

Haddie, Nadal is a deserving champion no question and the greatest clay courter and one of the greatest players of all time, but I stand by my position it is a big compliment to Novak to have our esteemed collegue cheer for Nadal in order to stop the Djokovic grandslam freight train.

Come on BB, isn't more like 70 percent of the reason why you cheered for Nadal in that grandslam to keep Djoko from 4 in a row? I don't want to question your intentions, but I already took as a huge compliment anyway 35 percent or otherwise.

Haddie-nuff wrote:

bogbrush wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:What was my name on the orignial 606?
While we're at it.

Other than amrit?

Haddie, sorry if it was secret but you did get called it on here the other day.

Now who is debsonthesofa?

Yes BB but you were the only one that picket up on it.. I ignored it.

Ah Haddie....

Just to clarify, when you say that Bogbrush was the 'only one that picked (no need to thank us for correcting your spelling) up on it', we hope you mean that dear old Bogbrush was the only one that picked up on The Main Event Lads revealing your true identity - as we did at 7:39 pm on the 21st of November last year with the following comment:

'Dear sweet Haddie...

The unbridled fervor with which you love Rafael Nadal and your irrational blindness to the truths we tell, is reminiscent of someone from ye Olde 606....

Are you in fact the infamously short-tempered.... Deecoco?'

There's no shame in hiding your identity, Haddie, only in being a Nadal-apologist.

Djoko of 2012 AO looked more invincible than AO 2013, yet DJoko won just 1 GS for that year, it would be false alarm to expect DJoko will run through this year let alone the rest of his career, I won't be surprised if Murray or other player catch him up the standings sooner or later.

dont agree, bar the wawrinka match I thought nole played one of his best ever slams.
aus 2012 he scraped through, this time was more convincing.

LuvSports! wrote:dont agree, bar the wawrinka match I thought nole played one of his best ever slams.
aus 2012 he scraped through, this time was more convincing.

I see the other way, in AO 2012 everybody was in form yet Djoko prevailed, in 2013 nobody was in form yet Djoko struggled.

I joined in 2006...had a diff name for about 12 months before moving to this name (guitar scale).

Re: Djokovic, well it's no surprise he's in Nadal's rear view is it since he's moved up a couple of gears to potentially become a likely all time great. At the same time Nadal has been plagued by injury, he's missed something like 2-3 years out of his career due to the foot pretty much. But that's the way it goes, Nadal gets his chance to start adding to his tally from next week.

The next 3-4 years will be interesting...there are upwards of 16 slams in that period. We see no major breakthroughs yet (although someone will come through surely) and I don't see Fed winning any more. So how will the next 16 slams be distributed? It's a lot of slams to spread between 3 guys...who knows there the top 3-4 will end up slam wise by the time they're all 30...particularly so if Rafa drops out from early retirement. You Federer fans better hope Nadal is the brake to Djokovic racking up another 10+ slams...Murray may get a few but I think Djokovic largely has the measure of him wind aside. Then again, things never go to plan...as Stan nearly showed at AO.

Hmm how peculiar lydian? I suppose the wind caused Murray to beat Djokovic in the Olympic semis in straight sets and account for his other six wins over Djokovic. Sorry but I find it all quite pathetic. Prepare for a rant folks so stop reading now......

Murray has reached the last three slam finals and still fails to get the recognition he fully deserves.

We are told the only reason he beat Federer is because Federer is way past his best....end of story. We are also told he only won a slam beating Djokovic because of high winds. Saints preserve us please.

Yeah I don't buy into this "Murray only won because of the wind" either. Murray said himself that the wind was a big factor in the first set, but died down almost completely early in the second.

I haven't heard a single Murray fan say that "Novak only won on Sunday because of Murray's blister" and to be fair to Novak fans I've not heard them throw the wind as an excuse, but some appear keen to put a wind * next to Murray's slam.

And I don't agree Novak has the measure of him either. Sunday was was the first match they've had in 7 months that hasn't gone right to the wire!

Each to their own though...

These discussions get problematic when they veer into emotional stuff like "credit".

lydian believes that the high wind prevented Djokovic playing the short angled, close to the line shots that serve a purpose of working an opponent over. Remember how that final was played two yards from the lines most of the time? I think he has a good point.

That said, wind at the USO is hardly unexpected and so could easily be a factor for the next 4 years, and in those conditions I make Murray the best player of all as he has the best combination of variety, patience and willingness to hack through it. Rather than it discounting his prospects I think affirms them, most certainly at that event.

Good points BB.
Wind (and weather conditions in general) are part and parcel of tennis. You could quite easily say that the only reason Djoko beat Murray at the AO was because of the still conditions.

The point is though in all honesty that wasn't the reason. Unless I am mistaken Murray beat Djokoic in straight sets at a calm Wimbledon in the Olympic semis. Their head-to-head record is Djokovic 11 Murray 7 (I do believe) and some if Murray's wins have been indoors but hey I suppose the cooling fans built up a bit of wind. As has been pointed out Djokovic fans didn't hold the wind issue up as an excuse and gave credit where it is due. I just wonder what Murray has got to do to get the recognition he has worked so hard for and deserves. After all six slam finals, one slam win, an Olympic Gold and closer than Federer, Nadal or Djokovic to winning his first two slams back-to-back is some pretty damned impressive stats to be so easily written off.

CC, rant all you like but I'm firmly of the opinion that the wind devastated Djokovic's (and Berdych's too in the previous round) game against Murray. You could see how it affected him against Ferrer in the semis before it died down...since when did he ever lose a first set 6-2 to Ferrer on HC? The emotional turmoil of battling the wind burnt his energy far quicker. Anyway, my point is that I don't think Murray will evenly split slams with Djokovic, I'm not saying he won't add t his tally as everyone has good/bad days but in general I think it will be 80:20 split at best. My opinion granted...we'll see of course.
BB, yes maybe but the level of wind at USO12 was exceptional to say the least because of Hurricane Isaac.
JHM, but still(er) conditions are the norm...has anyone on here tried playing in 25-30 MPH winds? Reduces a match to a game of Russian Roulette...brings it down to a level playing field where precise skills are nullified. Sure, some players are better at handling wind than others but for those that honed their games playing to the lines, and having the guts to go near the lines, their advantage that they've developed over others is taken away as they all play within 2-3 feet of the tramlines.

CaledonianCraig wrote:The point is though in all honesty that wasn't the reason. Unless I am mistaken Murray beat Djokoic in straight sets at a calm Wimbledon in the Olympic semis. Their head-to-head record is Djokovic 11 Murray 7 (I do believe) and some if Murray's wins have been indoors but hey I suppose the cooling fans built up a bit of wind. As has been pointed out Djokovic fans didn't hold the wind issue up as an excuse and gave credit where it is due. I just wonder what Murray has got to do to get the recognition he has worked so hard for and deserves. After all six slam finals, one slam win, an Olympic Gold and closer than Federer, Nadal or Djokovic to winning his first two slams back-to-back is some pretty damned impressive stats to be so easily written off.

Timmy had similar problems with the weather, hence the reason he never made a final lol

Djokovic was horrible around Wimb/OG last year...don't know why but he was, there were rumours of personal family stuff affecting him but no idea why he fell so tamely to Federer and Murray at those 2 events.

TBF Craig, I don't think lydian is offering up an excuse, he is simply stating his opinion that the wind played a part in reducing the effectiveness of some of Djokovic's shots and therefore if you are assessing form you might take that into consideration before placing a bet on either of the players next time they meet at a slam. It is very similar to the speculation that closing the roof at Wimbledon aided Federer's audacious game more that it aided Murray's.

lydian wrote:Djokovic was horrible around Wimb/OG last year...don't know why but he was, there were rumours of personal family stuff affecting him but no idea why he fell so tamely to Federer and Murray at those 2 events.

He was considerably worse on the clay in all fairness. Well below the level of 2011. Even if Nadal is back in form by the main clay season, I expect Novak to be back in 2011 form and beat him fairly comfortably. I actually though Novak played reasonably well on the grass.

Well lydian until you can explain away Murray’s six other wins over Djokovic (some indoors with no wind) then sorry I am not buying it. Likewise I’d hazard a guess if you look at some of Djoko’s wins over Murray they came in windy conditions. I would certainly see where you were coming from if that were Murray’s only win over Djokovic but it isn’t .....far from it.

B-S, remember Nadal and Murray both took Djoko to 5 sets at AO 2012, so considering Djoko doesn't prefer clay or grass compared to HC it's not suprising he lost to Nadal on clay; Federer and Murray on grass.

It could be argued that we were within a few second set points of Nole becoming (rather cruelly) 'a slamless wonder' - so it shows even for a player of his talents how hard it is to win more than one per annum

However, I'm not certain that Rafa will be unbeatable on Clay and would put Nole as a clear favourite on the dirt, as this stage - i.e. he should complete the Slam

But I'm not convinced that he's better than Murray at the slightly faster New York or Wimbledon and Roger should still be a threat for as long as he wants to be

I think predictions of such things are not on. At one time Agassi looked like a two slam waster of talent, with everyone getting ready to shovel more dirt in his grave - look what happened

i.e. who knows

lydian wrote:Djokovic was horrible around Wimb/OG last year...don't know why but he was, there were rumours of personal family stuff affecting him but no idea why he fell so tamely to Federer and Murray at those 2 events.

I seem to remember that the Murray Djokovic match at the Olympics was pretty high quality (7-5,7-5) with only one break of serve at the very end of each set. I wouldn't call that losing tamely.

lydian wrote:Djokovic was horrible around Wimb/OG last year...don't know why but he was, there were rumours of personal family stuff affecting him but no idea why he fell so tamely to Federer and Murray at those 2 events.

I wouldn't go as far as 'horrible' but he was definitely a bit fragile in that period.

His grandfather died at the start of the clay swing, his father was quite seriously ill during the summer and I also think he started to feel the pressure of being 'the hunted' and always having loads of points to defend.

He wasn't a happy chappy for those few months. Lots of racquet smashing (and hacksawing after the Olympics!), we had the double fault horror shows at RG v Rafa and Cincy v Fed (inc a first set bagel), a very meek performance in the Wimbledon semi... it was a strange period.

I'm not sure it affected the head-to-heads much though. Roger and Andy would both be favourites against him on grass and by the USO he seemed to be getting back to his old self, so I don't think form was really an issue there. Andy just played the smarter game that day.

Nobody has any idea what will happen but thankfully this will not prevent them ripping the throats out of posters with a different opinion to that which they hope to see happen.

All is as it should be.

With all due respects BB nobody is ripping any posters throats out. I was merely, correctly pointing out that Murray has beaten Djokovic in still and windy conditions so cannot see how wind can be solely contributed to Murray’s win. In crunch matches between the pair in the past year it stands at two wins each.....better I would guess than Rafa’s last four big matches against Djoko I would guess and Rafa is regarded as a legend whilst Murray is regarded as......well I shudder to think.

Lol BB.

CC, I don't need to explain away anything when offering an opinion. I'm talking about slams here not "ordinary" tour matches where we know he does well. He has 8 Masters yet 1 slam...so ordinary H2Hs aren't important when it comes to his slams.
Seen as you look backwards as well, in slams he's 1-3 to Djokovic, 1-3 to Federer and 2-6 to Nadal. That 4-12 in total. Given thats a 33% winning rate and they have 34 slams between them you'd expect he'd be on a few slams by now. Yet he isnt. His only slam win up to the age of 26 is last year, where yes IMO the high winds threw Djokovic's game out of the window completely, it was obvious to see. Otherwise he's lost his 5 other slam finals. Clearly his chances will improve given how the landscape around him is changing, plus I don't deny he made improvements as well...but I don't (yet) buy he's of typical multi-slam winner quality to be judged as on a par with Djokovic, which is what you're implying by pointing to the 6 wins. My point is that it's slam wins that count...in normal conditions.