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The Six Nations is an anachronistic competition featuring under-prepared, poorly coached test sides playing average rugby in front of large crowds of fans who only follow the sport for two months a year.

Thats my broadside, my abstract if you will. What do you make of that? As a dyed in the wool rugby fan I'm finding it increasingly hard to get excited by this the way I get excited about the World Cup, or Lions Tours, or the Summer tours or Autumn Internationals- or even the knockout stages of the Heineken Cup or Pro12.

For me, the magic is gone. I feel like in an era when only three of the competing nations are in the Top 8 of the IRB World Rankings and teams get such a limited amount of time together to bond and prepare the appeal is slowly ebbing away. I find myself increasingly pondering what should replace the tournament in the calendar. Sentiment can't sustain it for me if it isn't backed up by quality rugby.

I'm interested to hear what other people think.

Notch wrote:Interesting that the traditionalists still hold sway. I can't be the only one whose felt like scouring out their eyes at the dour spectacle of yet another low-scoring Calcutta Cup match at a frozen Murrayfield or rolled their eyes at yet another predictable Welsh/Irish implosion and under-performance.

I hear some of you defending the competition, but not giving me actual reasons to give a stuff. After all, I was reared on this tournament. Before going to watch provincial rugby was even a thing my family watched the Six Nations religiously. I think I've been to at least one Six Nations game in the flesh every year since about 2006 and obviously I watch all of it on TV, as I do pretty much all rugby. It has tradition in its favour- but why should tradition alone sustain it if it's falling behind in terms of atmosphere, entertainment, enterprise and quality?

Most of the games don't involve my team so I largely look upon it as a neutral; and my team is a dour, dispiriting mess that can't summon a tenth of the passion reserved for provincial rugby in Ireland anyway. And what I see are sides with little cohesion or ambition grinding out results in dull matches. Obviously the Tri-Nations shows it up, but now I've seen test rugby involving the likes of Argentina, Tonga and Samoa in the autumn that has left me more invigorated than the same old suspects. The introduction of bonus points has become more than necessary to give this old show a shot in the arm but even now the traditionalists resist.

And I make the point about fans, Jen, to illustrate one point; when you go to a test match in Ireland or Scotland (I can't speak for the other 4 countries yet sadly) the atmosphere is so utterly dead compared to the atmosphere in a Heineken Cup match of any importance. A lot is made of the atmosphere in selling the tournament at games, but go to a Heineken Cup Final and see how it's blown out of the water. Obviously the likes of England vs Wales and Ireland vs England stir the passions (everyone versus England, basically) but I've been to livelier funerals than watching Ireland vs Italy at the "AVIVA".

Whats your point mate. If you don't like it don't watch it. The WC is only important to the English because a Blue Moon coincided with the age of Aquarius and the appearance of Brigadoonm and they won it. Wales WC Semi or 2012 GS is a no brainer. Please don't give me the old "it only matters if you can beat the SH" rubbish. Rugby is about enjoying the whole experience, the match, the drinks in a city you only visit every other year, catching up with old friends and making new ones. The enjoyment is in being a Rugby fan. Those who obsess about only winning and the WC must be better because well its the world, and the RC is better well because the teams are better and the HC is better BLABLABLA, just don't get it. Relax enjoy the Rugby. So what if the standard is not as high (in your opinion, which may or may not be an educated one) its just not the point. Good sport is dramatic and keeps you on the edge of your seat and the 6 nations invariably delivers.

RWCs no longer has much point for me only the same little group stage them.Only 5 sides have contested a final only 4 won it and usually the final has been an anti-climax.
The 3Ns/4Ns is the BEST and hardest to win because it is contested by THE 3 most successful sides in the Pro era Home and away.
At Test level there is NO such thing as a friendly match or is that the excuse when the SH sides win against the NH.
It certainly does`nt apply when the NH claims a SH scalp the media wallow in it.
The 6Ns has a very good place in the calendar it is one which realistically at pinch
5 of the 6 sides could win a title.4 probably a Grand slam and all 6 on a good day could win most matches.
Certainly a sensible season with a time free of club commitments would occur so ALL Players would be available for test matches.BUT that is true in both Hemispheres.
Test matches poked in the middle of a lesser tournament ridiculous,and the so called Premier tournament.
THE RWC starting just 14 days after the 3Ns a traversty of planning on a monumental scale.

GunsGerms wrote:Bizarre. It is easily the greatest tournament in world rugby. Nothing comes close. Sometimes as in any big tournament games can appear to be arm wrestles but only because the stakes are so high.

Still is and will always be the greatest rugby tournament in the world.

+ 1

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Notch, would you disagree if I suggested that the high regard in which you hold the Heino and the Pro 12 is linked directly to Ulster's current success in those competitions? And that if the Irish provinces hadn't been challenging for and winning those tournaments for the last half-a-decade or more, but the national side had been winning the Six Nations trophy instead, you'd be less disappointed that it was interrupting Ulster's season?

+1

As a Scotland fan I would take a 6N grand slam over winning a RWC, or Edinburgh winning the HC, or a Scotland Dominated Lions squad winning a test series.

I hope to see a Scottish Grand Slam while old enough to drink and still young enough to really enjoy it.

Notch wrote:The Six Nations is an anachronistic competition featuring under-prepared, poorly coached test sides playing average rugby in front of large crowds of fans who only follow the sport for two months a year.

Thats my broadside, my abstract if you will. What do you make of that? As a dyed in the wool rugby fan I'm finding it increasingly hard to get excited by this the way I get excited about the World Cup, or Lions Tours, or the Summer tours or Autumn Internationals- or even the knockout stages of the Heineken Cup or Pro12.

For me, the magic is gone. I feel like in an era when only three of the competing nations are in the Top 8 of the IRB World Rankings and teams get such a limited amount of time together to bond and prepare the appeal is slowly ebbing away. I find myself increasingly pondering what should replace the tournament in the calendar. Sentiment can't sustain it for me if it isn't backed up by quality rugby.

I'm interested to hear what other people think.

I feel exactly the same way about the B&I Lions I can assure you.

dragonbreath wrote:

Notch wrote:Interesting that the traditionalists still hold sway. I can't be the only one whose felt like scouring out their eyes at the dour spectacle of yet another low-scoring Calcutta Cup match at a frozen Murrayfield or rolled their eyes at yet another predictable Welsh/Irish implosion and under-performance.

I hear some of you defending the competition, but not giving me actual reasons to give a stuff. After all, I was reared on this tournament. Before going to watch provincial rugby was even a thing my family watched the Six Nations religiously. I think I've been to at least one Six Nations game in the flesh every year since about 2006 and obviously I watch all of it on TV, as I do pretty much all rugby. It has tradition in its favour- but why should tradition alone sustain it if it's falling behind in terms of atmosphere, entertainment, enterprise and quality?

Most of the games don't involve my team so I largely look upon it as a neutral; and my team is a dour, dispiriting mess that can't summon a tenth of the passion reserved for provincial rugby in Ireland anyway. And what I see are sides with little cohesion or ambition grinding out results in dull matches. Obviously the Tri-Nations shows it up, but now I've seen test rugby involving the likes of Argentina, Tonga and Samoa in the autumn that has left me more invigorated than the same old suspects. The introduction of bonus points has become more than necessary to give this old show a shot in the arm but even now the traditionalists resist.

And I make the point about fans, Jen, to illustrate one point; when you go to a test match in Ireland or Scotland (I can't speak for the other 4 countries yet sadly) the atmosphere is so utterly dead compared to the atmosphere in a Heineken Cup match of any importance. A lot is made of the atmosphere in selling the tournament at games, but go to a Heineken Cup Final and see how it's blown out of the water. Obviously the likes of England vs Wales and Ireland vs England stir the passions (everyone versus England, basically) but I've been to livelier funerals than watching Ireland vs Italy at the "AVIVA".

Whats your point mate. If you don't like it don't watch it. The WC is only important to the English because a Blue Moon coincided with the age of Aquarius and the appearance of Brigadoonm and they won it. Wales WC Semi or 2012 GS is a no brainer. Please don't give me the old "it only matters if you can beat the SH" rubbish. Rugby is about enjoying the whole experience, the match, the drinks in a city you only visit every other year, catching up with old friends and making new ones. The enjoyment is in being a Rugby fan. Those who obsess about only winning and the WC must be better because well its the world, and the RC is better well because the teams are better and the HC is better BLABLABLA, just don't get it. Relax enjoy the Rugby. So what if the standard is not as high (in your opinion, which may or may not be an educated one) its just not the point. Good sport is dramatic and keeps you on the edge of your seat and the 6 nations invariably delivers.

Fortunately, the Welsh will never have to feel like that...

Jimpy wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

Notch wrote:........

Whats your point mate. If you don't like it don't watch it. The WC is only important to the English because a Blue Moon coincided with the age of Aquarius and the appearance of Brigadoonm and they won it. Wales WC Semi or 2012 GS is a no brainer. Please don't give me the old "it only matters if you can beat the SH" rubbish. Rugby is about enjoying the whole experience, the match, the drinks in a city you only visit every other year, catching up with old friends and making new ones. The enjoyment is in being a Rugby fan. Those who obsess about only winning and the WC must be better because well its the world, and the RC is better well because the teams are better and the HC is better BLABLABLA, just don't get it. Relax enjoy the Rugby. So what if the standard is not as high (in your opinion, which may or may not be an educated one) its just not the point. Good sport is dramatic and keeps you on the edge of your seat and the 6 nations invariably delivers.

Fortunately, the Welsh will never have to feel like that...

And so it begins....

I'm a huge, huge fan of the 6N, as I was of the 5N. The format was changed to bring Italy into the fold, and the competition hasn't suffered in any way. Italy have become more and more competitive - ran Eng perilously close a few years ago, and probably deserved to win, and the victory over the French was magnifique.

I mention this to illustrate that change can bring good results, and some memorable highlights (and lowlights, depending on your point of view).

It's been floated on here before, and realistically it'll never happen, but I'd like to see a two tier competition (6N being the top tier, the Europe A league (is that what it's called?) being the second), and a promotion / relegation playoff between the bottom of the 6N and the top of the lower tier.

This would give the likes of Georgia, Romania etc the opportunity to "do an Italy", but the safety net of the play-off would mean that the team finishing bottom would have a safety net (another life) as it were.

One could argue that Italy's progression has only been due to the long term inclusion, and that any promoted team would be whipping boys... I don't know.

Would make the bottom end of the table a bit spicy though!

All that said, mind, I wouldn't really change it. Bloody love it the way it is.

Notch wrote:

Glas a du wrote:Don't move it from Spring. Summer rugby will be better and it may have all sorts of other attractions, but Spring on these islands would be pretty dire without the rugby.

Actually- thats a bloody good point. February would be sad.

Agreed - February is the Monday of months!

Rinsure one things for sure you would`nt have wanted the Rumania of the SOVBLOC DAYS .In the 6Ns they would have won it most years ,Grand slams too.When France were considered THE best side in Europe they regularly lost to Rumania they were a GREAT side.

I'm not a great fan of trying to separate partial fans from "real" fans. If fans support their national side but no club then so be it... it doesn't make them any less loyal etc. I sort of drift between the two as with a young family its difficult to balance rugby and life... my playing days went out the window when my kids came along thats for sure.

I think people sugar coat the past..... those of us old enough to remember the amateur days wonder how we actually liked the sport. Looking back... lord it was dull.

Rolling maul after rolling maul, up & unders.... terrible ball skills.... put in todays average matches in comparison to the past and you'd be blown away and their aren't half as many car crash tackles as their are now... bad for the players, great for the fans.

Back in the day, players had jobs, trained say 4 times a week and met up only the week before the tournament.... and test matches, you'd be lucky if their were 5 a year.

So the tournament isn't as high class as say the RC... big deal. Does it matter less because of it? The RC can never claim to be a de facto world cup as FRA & ENG aren't competing... two teams who have competed in 6 of the 7 finals (the same number as NZ & AUS).

What the 6N lacks in current skill it certainly makes up atmosphere. Every weekend has 2 back to back matches at prime time viewing.

The RC has the atmosphere of a wet duck. Prior to the RC it was 1 match a week, when it was an away game it was either at 8am or 2am depending on where in the world you are.
With Argentina now on board its not that much better... 2 games a day, 1 in the morning, one in the evening.

For my pals and I when I was in the UK the last weekend of the 6N was sacred, an all day event and nothing would get in the way. I'm sure its the same for many on here still and long may it continue.

fa0019 wrote:I'm not a great fan of trying to separate partial fans from "real" fans. If fans support their national side but no club then so be it... it doesn't make them any less loyal etc. I sort of drift between the two as with a young family its difficult to balance rugby and life... my playing days went out the window when my kids came along thats for sure.

I think people sugar coat the past..... those of us old enough to remember the amateur days wonder how we actually liked the sport. Looking back... lord it was dull.

Rolling maul after rolling maul, up & unders.... terrible ball skills.... put in todays average matches in comparison to the past and you'd be blown away and their aren't half as many car crash tackles as their are now... bad for the players, great for the fans.

Back in the day, players had jobs, trained say 4 times a week and met up only the week before the tournament.... and test matches, you'd be lucky if their were 5 a year.

So the tournament isn't as high class as say the RC... big deal. Does it matter less because of it? The RC can never claim to be a de facto world cup as FRA & ENG aren't competing... two teams who have competed in 6 of the 7 finals (the same number as NZ & AUS).

What the 6N lacks in current skill it certainly makes up atmosphere. Every weekend has 2 back to back matches at prime time viewing.

The RC has the atmosphere of a wet duck. Prior to the RC it was 1 match a week, when it was an away game it was either at 8am or 2am depending on where in the world you are.
With Argentina now on board its not that much better... 2 games a day, 1 in the morning, one in the evening.

For my pals and I when I was in the UK the last weekend of the 6N was sacred, an all day event and nothing would get in the way. I'm sure its the same for many on here still and long may it continue.

Well said!

The major reason I love the RWC is I get to see teams like Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, Argentina etc. actually have time with their top players and mix it with the best, something that rarely happens outside of that tournament. It also gives you a chance to watch minnow sides battle it out, which is something I love as a rugby fan. I would take a lot of joy in watching a fixture like Russia vs Georgia for instance. It offers variety. And with all those fans mingling from different nations, the atmosphere must be second to none. I would love to go.

dragonbreath wrote:Rugby is about enjoying the whole experience, the match, the drinks in a city you only visit every other year, catching up with old friends and making new ones. The enjoyment is in being a Rugby fan. Those who obsess about only winning and the WC must be better because well its the world, and the RC is better well because the teams are better and the HC is better BLABLABLA, just don't get it.

It's interesting you say this, because thats a big part of my argument. It's what makes rugby great- but it's in as much evidence as any other tournament, even more so when you factor out the daytrippers and casual fans the 6N attracts. If you've ever been part of a large contingent of fans traveling to a big game in the Heineken Cup knockout stages you'll appreciate thats just as much or more of an outstanding rugby trip and it doesn't cost the earth either. And as for the World Cup- I've never been but that would afford you the chance to mingle with fans from all over the world, not just Europe. That would be a real party.

Come on- how can you not love watching the Pacific Islands teams and Argentina actually getting time to put a competitive side together and mix it with the best every four years?

This is another difference I've observed between myself and other rugby fans from this part of the world is that others have this "we're all in it together, Home Nations" mentality. I was baffled every year when my former housemates (English and Scottish) would support all of the European sides against all of the Ti-Nations sides in the Autumn Internationals. My second team has always been Argentina, and I have a wee torch that I carry for Samoa now as well.

For me, England vs Wales is the same as Samoa vs Tonga. Fiercely contested local derbies between nations I ultimately have no affinity for. One game you see every year, the other you might only see once every four years and that is what makes it special.

Because, we can patronise Tonga by shouting them on against Scotland every four years and pretend to enjoy it, knowing that the best competition takes place every spring as a fall back.

Dullness is in the eye of the beholder, I guess, fa. We definitely had our share of point-free matches back in the day - I have fond memories of games from the 70s including Ireland 6 France 4; Wales 6 Scotland 0; France 4 England 3; England 4 Ireland 0 and a host of other less than classic encounters. Thing is that I enjoyed them all, even as as a seven year-old, revelled in the tension, groaned at the errors and all the rest of the stuff that you do when you're still loving every minute of it.

I totally agree with everything else you say, mind. And our amateur blokes (very amateur, in England's case, back in the 70s) were still capable once in a while of going to NZ and SA and beating the might of the semi-pros. Australia, of course, were worse than all the 5 Nations teams back then, as they showed on their "tours" of the 70s.

Most of the 6N remains sacred to me, and I do try to see at least two or three games each year. My memories are great, but I still enjoy the whole occasion 40 years after first laying eyes on it and getting immediately hooked. As for the smaller nations, we see them every year now. If there is one aspect of international rugby I'd change, it would be to lessen the frequency of the off-season tours. It used to be a big event to welcome the Springboks, the all Blacks, or even Fiji here. Touring one of those countries was also a big deal. It's the autumn internationals that fit into my "so what"?" category these days.

captain carrantuohil

dude back in the day I was on tenterhooks throughout it all.... I recall going through some old VHS tapes of some recorded games a few years back when clearing stuff from my Da's loft.... I looked back and thought I must have been mental.

captain carrantuohil wrote:If there is one aspect of international rugby I'd change, it would be to lessen the frequency of the off-season tours. It used to be a big event to welcome the Springboks, the all Blacks, or even Fiji here. Touring one of those countries was also a big deal. It's the autumn internationals that fit into my "so what"?" category these days.

Hear hear!

Personally my interest tends to be aided by personal involvement - I enjoy competitions more if my team is in it.

My team isn't in the 6N, though I do enjoy the fact that the 6N is televised free to air at least. And when I managed to get to a 6N match a couple of years ago the atmosphere in Cardiff before, during and after the game was superb. Just a shame about the actual rugby - Wales vs Ireland 2011, a game where 2 sides engaged in aerial pingpong (badly in Ireland's case), handling errors and general ineptitude that was ultimately decided by a refereeing howler. It even made the 2006 Super Rugby final (where fog meant that I could only see 1/3 of the pitch for most of the game) look good in comparison.

It probably helps that the 6N always has a sizeable away support. You can count the numbers of kiwi's & Aussies supporters on one hand usually at a test match in SA. It adds to the atmosphere.

emack2 wrote:Rinsure one things for sure you would`nt have wanted the Rumania of the SOVBLOC DAYS .In the 6Ns they would have won it most years ,Grand slams too.When France were considered THE best side in Europe they regularly lost to Rumania they were a GREAT side.

The actual facts suggest a touch of exageration there. The best winning streak against 5 nations opposition theyve ever had is 2 games.
They did beat France 4 games out of 9 in the mid seventies to early 80s, but lost the previous 5 and next 5. That doesnt sound like the form of a side that wouldve won the 6N "most years" (indeed England nowactually do beat France most years but still pretty much never win the ruddy thing!)





Pete..arent you describing the 2011 world cup final there?

Glas a du wrote:Because, we can patronise Tonga by shouting them on against Scotland every four years and pretend to enjoy it, knowing that the best competition takes place every spring as a fall back.

Come spring, I would find myself much more interested in watching Tonga than Scotland!

I am very much torn. I don't actually enjoy watching the 6 Nations and strongly agree with the below quote.

Notch wrote:The Six Nations is an anachronistic competition featuring under-prepared, poorly coached test sides playing average rugby in front of large crowds of fans who only follow the sport for two months a year.

However I am thoroughly looking forward to the 6 Nations and I love the camaraderie of certain fans and between certain nations.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:My team isn't in the 6N, though I do enjoy the fact that the 6N is televised free to air at least. And when I managed to get to a 6N match a couple of years ago the atmosphere in Cardiff before, during and after the game was superb. Just a shame about the actual rugby - Wales vs Ireland 2011, a game where 2 sides engaged in aerial pingpong (badly in Ireland's case), handling errors and general ineptitude that was ultimately decided by a refereeing howler. It even made the 2006 Super Rugby final (where fog meant that I could only see 1/3 of the pitch for most of the game) look good in comparison.

That was perhaps the game that was the tipping point for me and the 6N. Just amateur hour, low quality stuff. And it says a lot that I just had to look up who won the tournament that year!

Funnily enough, I loved that game

P.S. was Paddy Wallace the ref then?

But it was an awful game of rugby. Even watching it, I was hoping we'd win, but the fairest result would have been for both sides to lose.

It's one of those games where people will point to it's attritional nature or dramatic finish, but if either of the sides had hit even 50% of their potential they would probably have walked it.

Isolating a single game doesn't work though. Firstly because it proves nothing. Any two teams can have off days in any competition. Secondly, because if you remove all possibility of turgid disappointments you end up with basketball. You need the rubbish to allow the gems (Wales v Ireland 2012 had everything) to shine.

[quote="Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler"]

emack2 wrote:..0


Pete..arent you describing the 2011 world cup final there?

I wasn't "lucky" enough to have tickets to the RWC final though

I was at the 2006 S14 final and the Wales vs Ireland 6n 2011 games.

Wales - Ireland 2011 was a stinker, there's no disputing that; but the result mattered as much as ever.

Exactly! It also informed the next two games between them, which were top drawer

Glas a du wrote:Funnily enough, I loved that game

Most effective bit of attacking rugby came from the ball boy....

dragonbreath wrote:Rugby is about enjoying the whole experience, the match, the drinks in a city you only visit every other year, catching up with old friends and making new ones. The enjoyment is in being a Rugby fan. Those who obsess about only winning and the WC must be better because well its the world, and the RC is better well because the teams are better and the HC is better BLABLABLA, just don't get it.

It's interesting you say this, because thats a big part of my argument. It's what makes rugby great- but it's in as much evidence as any other tournament, even more so when you factor out the daytrippers and casual fans the 6N attracts. If you've ever been part of a large contingent of fans traveling to a big game in the Heineken Cup knockout stages you'll appreciate thats just as much or more of an outstanding rugby trip and it doesn't cost the earth either. And as for the World Cup- I've never been but that would afford you the chance to mingle with fans from all over the world, not just Europe. That would be a real party.[/quote]

I would be interested to know if your desire to traverse Europe in support of Ulster is a new calling and a factor of the quality and competitiveness of the current side. I wonder if you would bother if they were getting hammered. The love of the Irish for the HC is understandable it is the arena in which they have enjoyed most success, but personally I wouldn't cross the street to watch Ulster play Quins in the HC final. People travel in their 10s of thousands to follow the 6Ns because it is a major event that actually transends the sport itself. The love of sport is emotional so if you don't care about Ireland then why would you invest in it. Most people are emotional about their national teams and ride the 6Ns rollercoaster with excitment. It seems that you are focused on some psuedo intellectual analysis of the quality of the game as you are watching it and are completely detached from the drama of the game unfolding in front of your eyes and the ebb and flow of the contest. Do you play? Have you ever played or did you stop because you were just not quite excellent enough to make participation worthwhile. Your attitude is more that of a football supporter but you are not alone in that in these times. Personally I think its a shame but that is just the world from my perspective

You still could and should have won it, as should we in 09. But the fact it remains a talking point is instructive. There was nothing on that game in the conventional sense. It wasn't a grand slam or even wooden spoon decider, but, it was clearly important. How many WC games can you say that about?

Having first played rugby in the Valleys in the mid-1950s, and following it for 60 years, I disagree that the Championship would only be worth watching when most of the teams were in the top 8 of world rugby - if that's what Notch means. A contest is a contest even if the teams aren't the best in the world.

I do think that there's too much hype in advance of 6 Nations games and at the grounds - warrior music and heroic graphics, etc - yet the consistently best team in the world, New Zealand, has for years led the hype on the pitch with a highly theatrical haka.

But on reflection it's probably unfair to overly criticise rugby, as this is an age of publicity and exaggeration in many walks of life. I recall when the haka was a half-embarrassed hop-about by big men, though that's another story!

optimist wrote:I do think that there's too much hype in advance of 6 Nations games and at the grounds - warrior music and heroic graphics, etc

It's all a waste of money. I took my dad to watch Wales v Scotland in last year's tournament and it really annoyed me. Fancy montages on the big screen, 'Enter Sandman' blasting out before the teams took to the pitch - no one's watching that stuff anyway, it's not why they're there, and the music actively prevents any singing that would build a genuine atmosphere. It's no wonder the Millennium can be quiet in the first few minutes after kick-off.

dragonbreath wrote:

Notch wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:Rugby is about enjoying the whole experience, the match, the drinks in a city you only visit every other year, catching up with old friends and making new ones. The enjoyment is in being a Rugby fan. Those who obsess about only winning and the WC must be better because well its the world, and the RC is better well because the teams are better and the HC is better BLABLABLA, just don't get it.

It's interesting you say this, because thats a big part of my argument. It's what makes rugby great- but it's in as much evidence as any other tournament, even more so when you factor out the daytrippers and casual fans the 6N attracts. If you've ever been part of a large contingent of fans traveling to a big game in the Heineken Cup knockout stages you'll appreciate thats just as much or more of an outstanding rugby trip and it doesn't cost the earth either. And as for the World Cup- I've never been but that would afford you the chance to mingle with fans from all over the world, not just Europe. That would be a real party.

I would be interested to know if your desire to traverse Europe in support of Ulster is a new calling and a factor of the quality and competitiveness of the current side. I wonder if you would bother if they were getting hammered. The love of the Irish for the HC is understandable it is the arena in which they have enjoyed most success, but personally I wouldn't cross the street to watch Ulster play Quins in the HC final.People travel in their 10s of thousands to follow the 6Ns because it is a major event that actually transends the sport itself. The love of sport is emotional so if you don't care about Ireland then why would you invest in it. Most people are emotional about their national teams and ride the 6Ns rollercoaster with excitment. It seems that you are focused on some psuedo intellectual analysis of the quality of the game as you are watching it and are completely detached from the drama of the game unfolding in front of your eyes and the ebb and flow of the contest. Do you play? Have you ever played or did you stop because you were just not quite excellent enough to make participation worthwhile. Your attitude is more that of a football supporter but you are not alone in that in these times. Personally I think its a shame but that is just the world from my perspective

Ouch! Easy tiger. This is just a messageboard and I'm just representing a position for the sake of debate, to try and provoke some debate. I could turn around and argue the other side easy enough too. Thats what a debate is after all, advocating a position. I'm just advocating a position I find myself pondering here, but it's not the whole story between me and the Six Nations. Otherwise, why would I spend my time watching games and traveling to matches in this very same tournament? Why would I without fail watch every game in the Six Nations, every year?

I've sort of dealt with the question of emotional investment, but lets put Ireland (my team) aside here- after all there are 15 games, and only 5 will involve your own team. The emotional investment I have in Ireland (yes, I still care about Ireland- I'm not shedding the guts of £60 to go watch them play England for the match day experience thats for damn sure) isn't the best way to judge the tournament. I mean, I'm going to tell you 2009 was a great tournament because we won the Slam but there were 10 games we weren't playing in that are a better indicator of that years quality. As it happens, 2009 was quite a dour year if I put aside my inherent bias. Its the 10 games I don't have a stake in I judge the quality of the tournament by.

Anyway, back to the above, I think thats where you're missing my point. At the Heineken Cup Final last year the ground was obviously dominated by Ulster and Leinster fans but it wouldn't have been half the occasion without all the other fans too. I saw about 12 clubs jerseys represented at the game there including Munster, Toulouse, Clermont, Quins and many more. I've been to a LOT of test matches and I'm continuing to go to test marches but you very seldom get that diversity at a test. The feeling was it was a big end of season shindig for fans from right across Europe and the atmosphere and quality of the game was second to none. It wasn't a close or dramatic final but it was an absolutely storming game of rugby union at its finest. Again, lets put Ulster aside. Say there was a Final in Dublin this year between Quins and Clermont- if money and work were no object, would I be there? Damn straight! Not sure I would say the same about a 6N game not featuring Ireland but I'm pretty much open to convincing to go and watch any rugby game, anywhere.

You have something of a point about following Ulster, but only because the best games to go to are the big games; its much more fun to go to a quarter-final than a pool stage game, or a Final regardless of whether or not your team makes it because there are more people travelling. I definitely would love to go on away trips more often in the pool stages, but there is an element of only being able to go to one or two games outside my season ticket each year so wait and see if we get through. And I must say, my two favourite away weekends in the Heineken Cup we did get hammered! In Milton Keynes by the Saints in 2011 and in London by Leinster in 2012.

A big part of my argument is you can get the same experience in other competitions as the Six Nations (well you can if you're French or English or Irish...). And yeah you can get that great fan experience in the Six Nations but it's not this unique, special thing in terms of atmosphere and away trips that its always been made out to be. Sure, thats all part of it, but there are other competitions in rugby union at both international and club level that can offer the same thing.

What I'm doing here is taking a swipe at this tournaments sanctified status. Because it used to be the pinnacle of rugby in the Northern Hemisphere besides the Lions, I genuinely remember that, but the magic is beginning to fade.

It seems that you are focused on some psuedo intellectual analysis of the quality of the game as you are watching it and are completely detached from the drama of the game unfolding in front of your eyes and the ebb and flow of the contest.

I wanted to address this point seperately, because what I feel in midweek is a lot different to what I feel when that whistle blows on a Saturday and the game kicks off.

But when that adrenaline and nationalism and passion fades away again...

You've flushed yourself out there Notch. What other entertainment where you go on such an emotional roller coaster is not followed by an element of guilt? The trick is to do something worth feeling the guilt about.

Glas a du wrote:You've flushed yourself out there Notch. What other entertainment where you go on such an emotional roller coaster is not followed by an element of guilt? The trick is to do something worth feeling the guilt about.

Eh? I don't follow.

But when that adrenaline and nationalism and passion fades away again...

You enjoy it at the time, but then later you feel cheated, as if it wasn't fulfilling enough, you feel guilt for having allowed yourself to enjoy it. My point is, if you were also guilty for having watched it in the Penthouse of the Hilton with a few bottles of champagne and a couple of high class hookers...

Notch wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:Rugby is about enjoying the whole experience, the match, the drinks in a city you only visit every other year, catching up with old friends and making new ones. The enjoyment is in being a Rugby fan. Those who obsess about only winning and the WC must be better because well its the world, and the RC is better well because the teams are better and the HC is better BLABLABLA, just don't get it.

It's interesting you say this, because thats a big part of my argument. It's what makes rugby great- but it's in as much evidence as any other tournament, even more so when you factor out the daytrippers and casual fans the 6N attracts. If you've ever been part of a large contingent of fans traveling to a big game in the Heineken Cup knockout stages you'll appreciate thats just as much or more of an outstanding rugby trip and it doesn't cost the earth either. And as for the World Cup- I've never been but that would afford you the chance to mingle with fans from all over the world, not just Europe. That would be a real party.

Except it's not Notch. Sure in the HEC final there are hordes of fans taking over cities for the day, but that only happens if your team gets to the final (once every dozen years) - whereas every game in the 6N is as big an event (supporter-wise) as a HEC final. Generally in the 6N the away fans are passionate supporters and it's the home fans that are the twice-a-year gift ticket brigade. I don't know if you have gone to many away Ireland games but that atmosphere is right up there.

The RWC isn't close either due to it's diversity. In Cardiff this weekend, the Welsh will be in no doubt which country is in town, and they adjust to each one's idiosynchracies - so expect extra Guiness on tap, and maybe Irish stew on special offer! The home from home welcome that adds to the build-up and atmosphere can't be replicated if there are 15 different countries in town.

Glas a du wrote:

But when that adrenaline and nationalism and passion fades away again...

You enjoy it at the time, but then later you feel cheated, as if it wasn't fulfilling enough, you feel guilt for having allowed yourself to enjoy it. My point is, if you were also guilty for having watched it in the Penthouse of the Hilton with a few bottles of champagne and a couple of high class hookers...

I wouldn't say enjoy it. I don't always enjoy it. Sometimes its a necessary pain, watching your country through thick and thin. What I do do is get into it during the game, even despite myself- even despite everything following Ireland has against it. The sense of being an unwelcome Northern guest the more partitionist Southerners tolerate at best and resent at worst, the sense of being a cash cow for the IRFU and being ripped off, the plastic and cringey over-dramatised pre-match rituals, the fake atmosphere which is a substitute for the largely mute crowd actually engaging with the game, the feeling of being regarded as slightly curious if you actually try and stand up and shout to support your team... all of that.

I was more trying to say that the weekend of the game and during the tournament I'm less objective and more emotional, whereas before and after I can be more objective about the whole thing! But hey, your plan for watching the tournament this year sounds dead on to me! Where do I sign up (and who is footing the bill?)

I'm quite enjoying being at the middle of all the controversy in this thread. Do you reckon this is how Portnoys feels all the time?

Notch wrote:
I wouldn't say enjoy it. I don't always enjoy it. Sometimes its a necessary pain, watching your country through thick and thin. What I do do is get into it during the game, even despite myself- even despite everything following Ireland has against it. I was more trying to say that the weekend of the game and during the tournament I'm less objective and more emotional, whereas before and after I can be more objective about the whole thing!

I will not have somone who's team has won what 3 (?) triple crowns and a grandslam complain about having to follow their team through thick and thin.

Take it from me lad you have known nothing but thick over the last 12 years!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Notch wrote:
I wouldn't say enjoy it. I don't always enjoy it. Sometimes its a necessary pain, watching your country through thick and thin. What I do do is get into it during the game, even despite myself- even despite everything following Ireland has against it. I was more trying to say that the weekend of the game and during the tournament I'm less objective and more emotional, whereas before and after I can be more objective about the whole thing!

I will not have somone who's team has won what 3 (?) triple crowns and a grandslam complain about having to follow their team through thick and thin.

Take it from me lad you have known nothing but thick over the last 12 years!

True. And I apologise to Scottish and Italian fans. My main problems with Ireland aren't really to do with the results mind you- I clarified on that point above by listing what I don't like about supporting Ireland in an edit but you got your reply in first, so I apologise for that too.

My favourite Six Nations game I've been to in recent times was actually Ireland vs Scotland in 2010. We lost, but it was the Ireland game I've been to in the flesh that I've enjoyed the most in recent times. Largely due to the atmosphere created by the visiting fans and the fact it was just a brilliant game of rugby- and as you can imagine the craic with the delighted Scots afterwards in the pubs was absolutely mighty. It was just a great advert for the tournament.

There were things I didn't like about that game too. I tried to tell off some Irish fans for booing Dan Parks' final kick and they called me a w@nker for it. Also Johnny Sexton was roundly booed by a section of the home fans (specifically Munster fans) throughout the second half. Those in a way epitomise the problems I have with following Ireland in test rugby.

I also was at the Ireland vs Scotland game in Dublin in 2012 and I really, really enjoyed that match too.

It's ok you don't have to apologise mate.

I just wish Scotland could have the form of Ireland over the last few 6Ns.

for me the games play 2nd fiddle to the banter, the atmosphere and everything else the 6N brings.

I look forward to it all year round. And almost certainly will for the rest of my life.

And then, the odd game rises above it all...

Wales v England 1999

Ireland v France 2000 (I think, BOD's debut anyway)

Scotland v France 1995

Wales v France 2005

Wales v Scotland 2011

So, we can sum this thread up in a few words: to each his own.

Lock thread...!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

emack2 wrote:Rinsure one things for sure you would`nt have wanted the Rumania of the SOVBLOC DAYS .In the 6Ns they would have won it most years ,Grand slams too.When France were considered THE best side in Europe they regularly lost to Rumania they were a GREAT side.

The actual facts suggest a touch of exageration there. The best winning streak against 5 nations opposition theyve ever had is 2 games.
They did beat France 4 games out of 9 in the mid seventies to early 80s, but lost the previous 5 and next 5. That doesnt sound like the form of a side that wouldve won the 6N "most years" (indeed England nowactually do beat France most years but still pretty much never win the ruddy thing!)

Regarding France regularly losing to Romania, they did indeed lose to them 8 times between 1960 & 1990, but all but 1 of those games (the last, a warm up match to their Australian tour that took place in Auch with more than a few squad players starting over those that would tour) were in Romania. By comparison, France won 22 games against Romania in the same time frame, 9 of which were in Romania.