v2 G.O.A.T Round 2 Match 4

Yesterday’s two match up's produced some interesting results as footballs Messi made it through to round 3 at the expense of tennis great Rod Laver by 44 votes to 36. Joining Messi in the next round is Michael Johnson after he defeated cycling’s Eddy Merckx by a convincing 47 votes to 23.

Today's first match up will see two global names do battle for entry into round 3, Athletics Usain Bolt and Golf's Tiger Woods

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport

Below are the previous round 1 articles written by forum members

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Usain Bolt- Athletics- Championed by ChequeredJersey

In the eternal discussions about the greatest ever in any category, most of the argument is based on subjective opinion backed up by a few selected stats rather than fact. Sport is no exception especially as finding absolute comparisons between different sports is impossible. One man though, we can give specific facts about.

Over the accepted minimum distance, he is the fastest man in the world and in recorded history, running 100m in a ridiculous 9.58 seconds. He also holds the 2nd fastest time, 2 other world records at the distance, the most times a man has broken the 10s barrier and 2 Olympic Gold Medals won with incredible ease and seeming lack of effort. In a 150m run (at which he also holds the World's best time), he ran the last 100m in 8.70 seconds, the fastest recorded 100m run in any context by a human being, at over 40km/hour. If he hits a child, there is a 40% chance they will live

In the 200m, he holds the world record of 19.19. He set the record before that, beating one that many thought could stand for ever when Johnson set it, at the 2008 Olympic games. He won the double gold in the 100m/200m twice in a row. Michael Johnson calls him the GOAT. He can probably run a fantastic 400m, long jump and was offered to play for Manchester United, the most marketable Football brand in the world. He hit Chris Gayle, one of the best allrounder cricketers playing today, for 6 in an exhibition match and clean bowled him! He shares the 4x100m WR with his Jamaican team-mates as well as Gold in that event.

He has , at 26 years of age, 6 Olympic Golds, World Records in every race he competes in, 5 WC golds and 2 silvers, and numerous other medals. Bolt is one of only eight athletes to win world championships at the youth, junior, and senior level of an athletic event.He was the youngest junior gold medallist ever.

Beyond sport itself, he is the face of and the rejuvenation of athletics and the Olympics. Known throughout the world, the most famous man from his Nation. He has inspired millions to try athletics with his youthful approach and joy.He was the main draw and the star of the London 2012 games, the most viewed sporting event in recorded history. Countless times the sporting icon of the year. Fastest man on Earth.

I genuinely dislike Bolt, I find him arrogant and inconsiderate of others in his demeanour before, during an after races. One of the most amazing things about him is that he could clearly run much faster if he tried throughout the race, he could train much harder in his own admission, he could do other events, he slows down towards the finish line if he can get away with it, he ate chicken nuggets before winning Gold on Beijing. Still untouchable. His technique is poor, especially his start. Doesn't matter. He is in a league of his own. Despite my dislike of his attitude, I can still accept that he gas inspired many and is a positive factor for his sport and sport in general. Despite disliking him, I can still say he is probably one of, if not the only, GOAT

Tiger Woods- Golf- Championed by- Adam D

"So far these GOAT debates have been fascinating reading. What sports are sports? How does a sportsman shine if they are part of a team? How can someone who is not athletically fit be considered a ""great"" sportsman? How can someone be considered the GOAT if they are not even the best in their sport?

Well all of these arguments could be levelled at Mr Woods to a certain extent, however, I will prove why all of these points in isolation do not matter to Tiger.

Tiger Woods is not just the greatest golfer of his generation, he is the greatest of all time. Whats that I hear you say? Jack Niklaus has won more?
Well for a start, he hasnt. Niklaus HAS won more Majors but not tournaments.

In fact, the person with the most tournament wins is Sam Snead who dominated from 1936 to 1965, clocking up 7 major wins. But I doubt he is going to grace this list anytime soon.

Lets get back to Niklaus vs Woods because lets face it, thats the golfing GOAT debate that will spring up. Now I like Niklaus and I like Woods, but which is better? There is only one way to find out....actually, its a matter of opinion and for me the reason why Woods outshines the Niklaus era is down to the talent pool around them.

Let me talk about that for a second. In Niklaus' era, we had the big names and historical superstars of the sport. In Woods era, we have Major winners such as Keegan Bradley and Zach Johnson. Whats my point you may ask as this is surely a selling point for Jack?

My point is that in the 60,70 and 80s, golf was dominated by a group of great players in a smaller pool. And that was down to the social class aspect of the sport. Fewer people played, and skill was the biggest factor in winning a tournament. Today, everyone is welcomed onto the many, many more courses around the world. And due to big hitting taking precedent over course management, the field has become much more even and full of depth.

Tigers dominance in a more scientific era of golf is that much more impressive. And its also the reason why he should be voted above the likes of Federer and Phil Taylor and Ronnie O'Sullivan. Tiger doesnt have to beat a single opponent on each day. He has won these tournaments by beating EVERY player over 4 days.

This is not a case of playing better than this rounds opponent but a case of playing better than every person in the competition. That is why his achievements should be considered above the other individual sports on this list.

So what has Tiger achieved?

At age 2, he appeared on TV putting against Bob Hope! At age three, he shot a 48 over nine holes over the Cypress Navy course. Before turning seven, Tiger won the Under Age 10 section of the Drive, Pitch, and Putt competition, held at the Navy Golf Course in Cypress, California.

In 1984 at the age of eight, he won the 9–10 boys' event, the youngest age group available, at the Junior World Golf Championships. He first broke 80 at age eight. He went on to win the Junior World Championships six times, including four consecutive wins from 1988 to 1991.

And THEN he went to college!

By the time he turned Pro in 1996, he had already amassed dozens of junior titles.

I am going to sum up his career in a very brief manner as the stats talk for themselves.

Woods has won 74 official PGA Tour events including 14 majors. He is 14–1 when going into the final round of a major with at least a share of the lead. He has been heralded as ""the greatest closer in history"" by multiple golf experts. He owns the lowest career scoring average and the most career earnings of any player in PGA Tour history.

He has spent the most consecutive and cumulative weeks atop the world rankings. He is one of five players (along with Gene Sarazen,Ben Hogan, Gary Player, and Jack Nicklaus) to have won all four professional major championships in his career, known as the Career Grand Slam, and was the youngest to do so. Woods is the only player to have won all four professional major championships in a row, accomplishing the feat in the 2000–2001 seasons.


On top of this he has another 38 European Tour wins and other worldwide tournaments.

Simply put, no one in the modern era has dominated the sport like Tiger. He has been so dominant that he won the US Open in 2008 on one leg (He was recovering from Knee surgery before the tournament and had to have major knee surgery afterwards).

Outside of his sporting achievements it has to be noted that Tiger Woods has transcended just playing the game. He has a successful video game franchise named after him - when was the last time anyone played Roger Federers Tennis 2013 or Jerry Rice American Football 2013?

The final thing I want to touch upon is his infidelity. Some may discount him for this very reason but that is ludicrous. However, we must remember that Tiger hasnt commited a crime. He hasnt taken drugs to cheat at his sport. He hasnt dodged a military draft or served jail time for serious crimes. He cheated on his wife (albeit on numerous occasions) which might make him less of a man but not a sporting great.

Tiger deserves to be the v2 GOAT

Wow now this is a blockbuster match-up.

Convince me people!!

Well, I've cast my vote on the easy pair today. This one though is much more closely balanced.

Yesterday I wouldn't vote for Messi because so far his career doesn't really amount to much, but I have far fewer reservations about Bolt, even though he's a similar age - two Olympic Games, winning the 100m, 200m and 4x100m in each, plus not just breaking the record but moving the goalposts on the 100m WR and beating the magnificent 200m WR set by Michael Johnson in Atlanta. If Bolt stopped racing now, he would still be a legend of the sport.

The only question mark (beside the possibility of doping that has to be considered for every modern day track and field star) is whether he has really achieved his potential, or whether his shall we say relaxed attitude to training has compromised his career. Ever since Beijing I've been of the opinion that a fully fit and focussed Bolt could re-write the record books for 200 and 400m - sub 19s for 200 and comfortably sub 43s for the 400m, simply because he has such a phenomenal 'cruising' speed in races (as at the end of the 100m, when he was apparently easing up).

Woods - I understand he is an unpopular figure amongst some golf afficionados, because of his attitude on the course and to the fans (leaving aside his extra-marital indiscretions), but I have never seen a more complete golfer, nor one who for a decade dominated a sport as difficult to be dominant in as golf (unlike tennis, every week starts with 100 players thinking that with a good week they could win the tournament). At his best a fantastic long hitter (even if not always that straight), very accurate iron player and one of the finest (and most under-rated) chippers and putters of all time. The chip in on the 16th at Augusta a few years ago was one of the most extraordinary shots ever (and getting the ball to pause on the hole edge with the Nike mark visible to the camera was just showing off) - lots of players have tried the shot Woods played (aiming up the green, at an acute angle away from the hole, then letting the slope stop the ball and slide it back towards the hole), but I've never seen anyone manage to get the ball to run out at dead weight into the hole (almost every other shot has run out a couple of yards beyond the hole).
However, at the moment I don't have Woods down as the golf GOAT - Nicklaus may not have been as dominant, but over time has achieved more in terms of Majors both won and challenged for (Woods so far has proven to be a great front-runner, but not so good at coming through the field). Woods still has some chance of matching Nicklaus's record, although the problems he's had with his knee suggests he won't continue at the top end of the game well into his 40s.

So two great sportsmen of the modern era (even if neither are necessarily likeable), both of who are still in a position where they could possibly enhance their already significant legacy. Don't see either are being serious contenders for the overall GOAT position.

OK - after careful consideration, I'm going to go with Bolt, because he has succeeded in one of the most high profile events in all of world sport. Close call though,

Bolt, although not by much. Each has transcended his sport, each has won everything that counts in his sport.

The only thing to separate them is the fact that Woods has (in my opinion) one golfer who was even better than him to contend with - Jack Nicklaus. At 26 years of age, I believe Bolt to be the greatest sprinter over 100 and 200 metres who has ever lived. Fine margins, but in the head to head stages of such a competition, they'll have to suffice.

my two Goats in one group..

Jeas

I am abstaining!

Calling all fellow posters to not vote on this!!!

I hope your not part of the Main Event Lads mysti!!

Nah not me.. I just hate this match up

I picked woods to see the vote in the end and then i will stick with it to give him that extra vote as he is down..

fact is these 2 along with nicklaus ,fed and bradman are my top 5 and i cant split em!

Bolt wins this for me in a photofinish.

So with my poor analogy I'm suggesting Tiger Woods ran 9.59 in the 100m but Bolt just pips him in 9.58.

Woods easily. As much as I dislike his character (not a great fan of Bolt's either though they are chalk and cheese), he dominated one of the great games in the mind that this world has to offer, and that is FAR more impressive than dominating a 10 or 20 second muscle fest

VTR wrote:Bolt wins this for me in a photofinish.

So with my poor analogy I'm suggesting Tiger Woods ran 9.59 in the 100m but Bolt just pips him in 9.58.

more like woods ran a 4.57

Tough one this, but I think I'll be going Bolt. Bigger talent pool by such a long way.

Bolt for me. He has transcended in a way Tiger has not.

I am a little bias with this one as I don't really class golf as a sport.

barragan wrote:Woods easily. As much as I dislike his character (not a great fan of Bolt's either though they are chalk and cheese), he dominated one of the great games in the mind that this world has to offer, and that is FAR more impressive than dominating a 10 or 20 second muscle fest

the skill level in Golf is clearly on another level. I suppose we could describe Bolt as the most athletically evolved human or something rather than a sporting goat- IE he was born with it rather than learnt and perfected

Both sports are clearly massive in terms of participation so both need to recognised as superstars of there sports..

Think that the fact that Els, Singh, Montgomerie et al couldn't dominate, or indeed win any of, the Majors, while Woods was on sabbatical for one reason or another, gives the lie to the idea that they were in the same class as Nicklaus's contemporaries, Mystir. Mentally weak by comparison with Player, Watson et al, and that goes for Mickelson too, who has thrown away chance after chance to establish himself as a truly great golfer for the ages.

Bolt for me. I don't buy the argument about talent pool one iota. Nicklaus was playing against out and out winners who actually had to win to make the comfortable living the also-rans take for granted these days.

I dont agree captain..

This can be argued both ways In equal measures. My argument(on the other thread and yours on this one)

However the reason why I state that tigers reign had better competition is due to the fact that the game has moved on and evolveed and there is more competition and participation.. Therefore if I was a betting man I have to bet on my theory- there is simply better odds on myself being correct due to the sport getting bigger and bigger.

It doesnt make me right. But the odds are in my favour..

Who Is better out of jack or tiger.

Well jack has more majors.. Therefore he has perfect logic on his side!

I cant split them myself due to my conclusion on talent pools!

Difficult one Oakey as I would say Tiger at his peak would beat Jack at his peak but Jack would be able to stay at or near his peak a lot longer. So over 2 whole careers it could fall either way.

I did plump for Woods on this one for no other reason than dedication to practice and training. Bolt is quite simply a phenomenal physical specimen and if he had the same work ethic and dedication to improve that other top dogs in their field have he could probably set records that would never be beaten in our lifetime.

Phew tricky one. Though I have to put Tigers personal issues aside on this one, I think it's only right to just consider his sporting achievements. I'd shade, very slightly shade Tiger here, mostly due to longevity, he's been at or around the top for a long time, bit longer than Bolt. If bolt gets gold in Rio though...

This is a real tough one. Both excel at what they do. They have had brilliant careers so far with much more to come. My adopted country may sway me in the American's direction, but Bolt makes it look so easy, like Federer.

What dilemma! Tiger's personal tribulations are not very endearing, even though he seems to have put those behind and is in recovery mode, which makes it a + to him. Bolt has not had to face such adversity yet (and I hope he never does).

Tiger, but just by the tiniest of nano-margins.

Voted for Tiger, but it was very close!

Have to say the entrants with the exception of Bolt are at the bottom end of the remaining 32, would have Merckx blitzing the other three with ease. Easy choice it's Bolt.

Against a different candidate Tiger might have stood a chance not against Bolt. Bolt by a big margin for me.

You have to admit, it is a close one at 33-29 for Bolt as of now, iC.

Remember people. 100m finals have been tainted by many drugs scandals from the big ones (Ben Johnson failing a drugs test) to the little ones (Carl Lewis failing a drugs test more quietly) - then there's Gatlin, Linford Christie. How do we really know what we are watching anymore.

Now golf. Now there's a sport with high values of fair play and sportsmanship that althletics cannot even dream about.

I voted Woods.

But he hasnt failed a test.

Woods' personal problems dont bother me. What he does with his d*ck is none of my concern. The guy is possibly the best golfer of all time, and one of only a few golfers even those of no interest find thrilling to watch.

Equally, who doesnt enjoy watching Bolt smash records in the 100m? Can a sprinter be the GOAT though?

Are the margins of greatness more magnified in sprinting? Bolt is half a second slower and no one cares much about him.

But why is it that a 100m runner is always so much more appreciated than a 800m or 400m?

I really like Bolt, hes such a character and watching him is brilliant. Its his unique technique, not robotic like all the others, that makes him special.

But Woods was insanely good, hes created an aura of fear around him.

Its hard to say how you measure this. Was his peak talent better than Nicklaus but not his longevity? Does that not make him a better player anyway? I dont know, I only watch golf on sundays

Far, far more people have had the chance to be spotted as potential top class runners than top class golfers? In the UK for example, any child who had potential like Bolt had would be easily identified ... definitely not the case with golf.

Imagine a world where everyone born in the last 50 years had devoted themselves to sprinting, how many people would have been better than Bolt. I'd guess a handful at most, maybe no one. Imagine this for golf, I'd guess a very large number (thousands possibly) would be better than Tiger.

On this alone I have to vote for Bolt.

Voted for Tiger.

I'm just not convinced that Bolt isnt being chemically assisted...

Tiger has won!!

very shocked..

mystiroakey wrote:Tiger has won!!

very shocked..

By one vote as well! And yes, even though I voted for Tiger, I'm surprised as well.

I am happy that both were actually 50/50 backed. because there are two top 5 contenders..

Either could have won and i would have been happy- but happier that it was so close!

In some ways it's a suprise Blt did so well considering the forums sporting demographic. Quite a busy golf board as opposed to a non existent athletics board so not many "free" votes for Bolt.

I voted for Woods, but I'd cancel it if I could considering the amount of people who have voted for Woods just in case Bolt is on drugs

chris.wilkerson13 wrote:I voted for Woods, but I'd cancel it if I could considering the amount of people who have voted for Woods just in case Bolt is on drugs

How many is that then?

Henman Bill wrote:Remember people. 100m finals have been tainted by many drugs scandals from the big ones (Ben Johnson failing a drugs test) to the little ones (Carl Lewis failing a drugs test more quietly) - then there's Gatlin, Linford Christie. How do we really know what we are watching anymore.

Now golf. Now there's a sport with high values of fair play and sportsmanship that althletics cannot even dream about.

I voted Woods.

Oh deer!! Vijay's timing was impeccable then!! :-O

Did this match go for 5 or 600 metres then?? Bolt was way in front when I last looked. I did vote for Woods but wouldn't have been upset in the slightest if Bolt had won. Can't believe the "D" influence has reared its head on this one as well.

chris.wilkerson13 wrote:I voted for Woods, but I'd cancel it if I could considering the amount of people who have voted for Woods just in case Bolt is on drugs

Woods has most likely been on beta blockers as well.

Duty281 wrote:

chris.wilkerson13 wrote:I voted for Woods, but I'd cancel it if I could considering the amount of people who have voted for Woods just in case Bolt is on drugs

How many is that then?

Seemingly at least two, enough to swing the vote

Back in August, I was no less suspicious of Usain Bolt being on drugs as I was watching those throws by Nadzeya Oastpchuk.

What a match!!!! Just 1 vote in it, v2 GOAT is back tomorrow!

missed this but what a contest, very difficult to judge current unretired sportsman, if bolt were to go to rio and retain his tiltes he for me would easily be the greatest sportsman of all time. even so when both retire think they will be regarded higher than they are now

if i could have think i would have gone with bolt just