Wales' worst coach yet?

As Robert Howley ensures that a Welsh man will not coach the team for a decade at least, has he surpassed Gareth Jenkins as our worst ever? Are there any other glaring failures? Is it fair to compare Howley, who has four professional regions to chose from with the coaches of the 80s who lost their best players to league?

Here's the official list:


List of head coaches:

Name Years Tests Won Drew Lost Win %
David Nash 1967 5 1 1 3 20.0
Clive Rowlands 1968–1974 29 18 4 7 62.1
John Dawes 1974–1979 24 18 0 6 75.0
John Lloyd 1980–1982 14 6 0 8 42.9
John Bevan 1982–1985 15 7 1 7 46.7
Tony Gray 1985–1988 18 9 0 9 50.0
John Ryan 1988–1990 9 2 0 7 22.2
Ron Waldron 1990–1991 10 2 1 7 20.0
Alan Davies 1991–1995 35 18 0 17 51.4
Alex Evans 1995 4 1 0 3 25.0
Kevin Bowring 1995–1998 29 15 0 14 51.7
Dennis John 1998 2 1 0 1 50.0
Graham Henry 1998–2002 34 20 1 13 58.8
Lynn Howells 2001 2 2 0 0 100.0
Steve Hansen 2002–2004 29 10 0 19 34.5
Mike Ruddock 2004–2006 20 13 0 7 65.0
Scott Johnson 2006 3 0 1 2 0.0
Gareth Jenkins. 2006–2007 20 6 1 13 30.0
Nigel Davies 2007 1 0 0 1 0.0
Warren Gatland. 2007–present. 56 28 1 27 50
Robin McBryde 2009 2 2 0 0 100.0
Rob Howley 2012 6 1 0 5 16.7

For me it has to be Ron Waldron who coached Wales during the disastrious 1990-1991 Five Nations campaigns where he had a tendency to prefer Neath players and select average club players out of position like the hilarious selection of trying to use Paul Arnold at number 8 V England in 1991 in the hope that he could be the new Mervyn Davies.

A close second behind Ron Waldrom has to be Australian Alex Evans who seeked to increase the weight and size of the Wales forward pack by playing Wales best lock forward in the early 1990's Gareth Llewellyn out of position as a Blindside Flanker.

He did look like Mervyn Davies, well he had dark hair and a moustache...

It still makes me chuckle how the players fought to get rid of Ruddock, your best coach in 30 years and ended up with Jenkins.

Well if (or should that be when) we end up with te wooden spoon and Howley has precided over a run of 12 losses he will be pretty damned close to being top of the pile.

Howley has far better players at his disposal than Waldron and others who was a great club coach

fa0019 wrote:It still makes me chuckle how the players fought to get rid of Ruddock, your best coach in 30 years and ended up with Jenkins.

yeah, hilarious...

RubyGuby wrote:Howley has far better players at his disposal than Waldron and others who was a great club coach

Very true, during Waldron's time we had very few big forwards, he did build a very good club team but the step up to international rugby was too much for the Neath players. He was only doing what Gatland did against England in 2008, basing the team around the top Welsh team at the time. I remember going to work during the Waldron period and passed the newsagent by the Royal Gwent in Newport and saw a news poster that stated "thank god Waldron was not Penarth's coach".

I read Lynn Howells book over xmas he did not like Howley at all, my reading of the book he did not trust him. I suspect Lynn is a good judge of character.

Emyr Lewis did a charity bash for us. He thought Waldron was a

Remember, Llanelli and Swansea beat the Aussies in 1991, when they were world champions. Neath were on a tremendous run. Yet Waldron could not fashion these players into a side.

He told us about Waldron's motivational rants:

"now forwards, you are my pack of hunting dogs and I want you haring around that field like scolded cats..."

He just wanted to laugh.

I'm just delighted that Howley was selected as the backs coach for the Lions. I really am. His record speaks for itself.....

Was it me or did howley look particularly nervous at yesterdays press conference? Seemed to lose the ability to speak properly. The " leave biggar alone" thing was bizarre - didn't fill me with confidence. Just seemed like a man overwhelmed by the whole situation.

It says how bad Howler is when the only two worse than him (Nigel Davies and Scott Johnson) were only really covering for a single game in the wake of a head coach resigning.

Yes but 4 out of the 6 proper tests he's lost we're against Australia, 3 away.

Who did he win one against?

Erm, the, erm, Barbarians. It had to be capped so Nugget could get his 100th see?

Glas a du wrote:Yes but 4 out of the 6 proper tests he's lost we're against Australia, 3 away.

Not sure why that is necessarily a mitigating factor. I personally think Wales have better players than Australia, and I certainly think that losing all three games was poor. Remember Scotland managed to beat Australia away only a week or so earlier.

This may be perception rather than training ground reality, but Howley strikes me as soft, and I've seen little to suggest he's a brilliant tactician either.

Wales were far better served with Gatland and Edwards at the helm, and I think Gatland's absence from the frontline has really affected matters.

Not all things are down to Howley though. It would be unfair to blame the current injury crisis on him, and Wales really are missing a few fundamental players: Charteris and Dan Lydiate in particular.

Still, his decision not to start with Tipuric and Lloyd Williams is very much his decision, as is the call to play Biggar over Hook, and those judgements will play a huge role.

Not sure about soft, but he gives me the impression he's spiteful.

Glas a du wrote:Not sure about soft, but he gives me the impression he's spiteful.

You wouldn't be saying that Rob Howley, 5"9, could be suffering from little man syndrome when surrounded by a changing room full of players 6"2+?

Hmmm, so why doesn't he like Peel?

Peel should be fighting Phillips for the 9 shirt - What a dumb move going to Sale - Same for Ritchie Gray - Absolute madness - See youin the Beefeater next Wed,

I'll get my loyalty card warmed up...

Loyalty my arxx - you just like cheap red wine

RubyGuby wrote:Peel should be fighting Phillips for the 9 shirt - What a dumb move going to Sale - Same for Ritchie Gray - Absolute madness - See youin the Beefeater next Wed,

to be fair to peel he asked gatland's permission before moving to sale. gatland told him it wouldn't effect his international career. then gatland phone him a few months later, saying things had changed within the wru, and he had to come back to wales. gatland had lined up the cardiff blues for him, but dwayne said he couldn't mess sale around, and said he was going to honour his contract with sale.

I appreciate Peel's loyalty but the place is just a backwater - Why not Gloucester, Bath etc it's been very damaging for his professional career and some of his loyalty should be too himself - Sale will spit him out when they are done with him

I think Sale were not too bad a team when he went. Didn't that has PSA as head coach and Kingsley assissting. Along with players like Lewis-Roberts, Sheridan, Chabal, Wigglesworth, Hodgeson etc.

he's expecting his 2nd child soon, so guess he'll be heading home soon.

Looking ahead for Wales does this Gatland - Edwards - Howley partnership have a future?

Will Gatland have the enthusiasm for Wales post Lions or will he fancy the idea of getting in some time in Super Rugby ready to pounce when All Blacks coach becomes vacant in 2015 or 2016?

Will Edwards failure to get onto the Lions ticket alongside Howley and Gatland lead to him looking else where.

Will Rob Howley get his head kicked in by a drunken mob as he leaves the Millennium Stadium after leading Wales to a record 6/6 defeats this March?

Only time will tell. Could Lyn Jones be the man to take you all forward.

Stag - Only in Wales do we hand the reigns of our NH champs to a fella who's never coached a team - the fella is so out of his depth - He has the stature of Steptoe. Only in Wales

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm just delighted that Howley was selected as the backs coach for the Lions. I really am. His record speaks for itself.....

Sounds like Gatland has got his yesmen/noddy dogs just where he wants them.

Gatland - "what do you think of this leftfield selection Rob?"

Howley - "great idea boss!"

Glas a du wrote:He did look like Mervyn Davies, well he had dark hair and a moustache...

He looked like he had eaten Mervyn Davies from what i would remember. I don't remember him ever stating that he though that second row Paul Arnold would be anything like number eight Mervyn Davies though.

maestegmafia wrote:

Glas a du wrote:He did look like Mervyn Davies, well he had dark hair and a moustache...

He looked like he had eaten Mervyn Davies from what i would remember. I don't remember him ever stating that he though that second row Paul Arnold would be anything like number eight Mervyn Davies though.

That Wales backrow from that 1991 match V England was very bizarre, as they had 2 very average club standard flankers in Glen George and Alun Carter to partner Arnold in the Welsh backrow. Opposing them were the very formidable presence of the England trio of Mike Teague, Dean Richards and Peter Winterbottom. Wales should have picked Richard Webster at 6 with Richie Collins at 7 if they were going to go down the Tall Number 8 route/path for trying to combat this mighty England back row.

In Howley's defence, I think as a lieutenant to someone who knows what they're doing he does a perfectly adequate job. At least he has the credentials of someone who played at the highest level.

Problems are that he's fairly dim, intellectually; is an awful communicator (the 'leave Biggar alone' stuff was bizarre) and has no imagination to create new ideas. As a player his game was built on (by the standards of the day) extreme fitness levels and being reasonably fast for a 9. There was no creativity in the way he played - he did everything by the numbers.

He can still do a job in the pro game, just not as a head coach.

Casartelli wrote:In Howley's defence, I think as a lieutenant to someone who knows what they're doing he does a perfectly adequate job. At least he has the credentials of someone who played at the highest level.

Problems are that he's fairly dim, intellectually; is an awful communicator (the 'leave Biggar alone' stuff was bizarre) and has no imagination to create new ideas. As a player his game was built on (by the standards of the day) extreme fitness levels and being reasonably fast for a 9. There was no creativity in the way he played - he did everything by the numbers.

He can still do a job in the pro game, just not as a head coach.

But then so was Warren Gatland's game when he played at Hooker for the All Blacks and for his provincial team. His game was purely about fitness levels and brute strength.

gboycottnut wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Glas a du wrote:He did look like Mervyn Davies, well he had dark hair and a moustache...

He looked like he had eaten Mervyn Davies from what i would remember. I don't remember him ever stating that he though that second row Paul Arnold would be anything like number eight Mervyn Davies though.

That Wales backrow from that 1991 match V England was very bizarre, as they had 2 very average club standard flankers in Glen George and Alun Carter to partner Arnold in the Welsh backrow. Opposing them were the very formidable presence of the England trio of Mike Teague, Dean Richards and Peter Winterbottom. Wales should have picked Richard Webster at 6 with Richie Collins at 7 if they were going to go down the Tall Number 8 route/path for trying to combat this mighty England back row.

I was at that game. Thorburn kicking instead of Jenkins. Made me wonder why we had Jenkins in the side as other than goal kicking he had done little to prove his other abilities as a flyhalf.

maestegmafia wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Glas a du wrote:He did look like Mervyn Davies, well he had dark hair and a moustache...

He looked like he had eaten Mervyn Davies from what i would remember. I don't remember him ever stating that he though that second row Paul Arnold would be anything like number eight Mervyn Davies though.

That Wales backrow from that 1991 match V England was very bizarre, as they had 2 very average club standard flankers in Glen George and Alun Carter to partner Arnold in the Welsh backrow. Opposing them were the very formidable presence of the England trio of Mike Teague, Dean Richards and Peter Winterbottom. Wales should have picked Richard Webster at 6 with Richie Collins at 7 if they were going to go down the Tall Number 8 route/path for trying to combat this mighty England back row.

I was at that game. Thorburn kicking instead of Jenkins. Made me wonder why we had Jenkins in the side as other than goal kicking he had done little to prove his other abilities as a flyhalf.

If I remember correctly, Neil Jenkins and Scott Gibbs were 2 19 year olds who made their international debut in that particular match V England. Gibbs was selected to combat the menace and attacking threat posed by Jeremy Guscott, whilst Jenkins was selected probably as Wales's attempt combat England's experienced fly-half and kicker Rob Andrew.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Well if (or should that be when) we end up with te wooden spoon and Howley has precided over a run of 12 losses he will be pretty damned close to being top of the pile.

BUT, He will still be going on the Lions tour AS A COACH.

majesticimperialman wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Well if (or should that be when) we end up with te wooden spoon and Howley has precided over a run of 12 losses he will be pretty damned close to being top of the pile.

BUT, He will still be going on the Lions tour AS A COACH.

BUT in a coaching role he is capable/comfortable of doing well.

Ye there is a huge difference between a technical and execution aspect of coaching and the tactical and managerial side of things, which is why I'm always amazed by how head coaches are selected, similarly to how players turn to coaching.

Being a good coach doesn't mean you can run a team as top dog, and IMHO what we're seeing with Howley is exactly the case, inexperienced at coaching and totally out of his depth at stepping up.

But in what other industry would you expect a small unit manager (backs coach) whos been in his first job at a local mill for a year or so, step up to running one of the largest and most complex plants on the planet???

I wrote this after the Aussie tour:

http://v2journal.com/political-animals.html

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ye there is a huge difference between a technical and execution aspect of coaching and the tactical and managerial side of things, which is why I'm always amazed by how head coaches are selected, similarly to how players turn to coaching.

Being a good coach doesn't mean you can run a team as top dog, and IMHO what we're seeing with Howley is exactly the case, inexperienced at coaching and totally out of his depth at stepping up.

But in what other industry would you expect a small unit manager (backs coach) whos been in his first job at a local mill for a year or so, step up to running one of the largest and most complex plants on the planet???

In Football, with the best example being Steve McClaren who was given the prestigious job of head coach of the England football team despite having relatively little experience prior to starting this job.

In Howleys defence though Glas during the Oz tour he had Gatland back seat coaching, then rocking up for the 3rd test (?) and similarly in the AI's too. Not that I am saying Howley is any good but he has had a rough ride, we are not sure if he was selecting the squad/teams or whose tactics were employed!

Cracking article though, wouldve had much more credence before the Argie game though.

gboy

Your right, Mclaren had half a season of good results behind him only.

Was Howley attack coach on the last lions tour? Sure he was. And I think he got a lot of plaudits for doing well then (relatively). I know it's different from being head coach, but I don't feel he's had a real chance without the shackles of Gatland hanging round his neck. I'm intrigued by how much Gatland was really at a distance in the past - I reckon he was still dictating the game plan (although that's a complete guess). If Howley's been given free reign this time it will be interesting to see if there's a difference in the game plan, attack, etc.

Have to agree Griff, Howley inherited a wonder backline at the Blues, and profited from it, and it will be very interesting to see if he can get a very good backline going again.

My heart says as a 9, and a backs coach he'll favour an attacking gameplan but his selection is just so cowardly and safe I can't see it.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ye there is a huge difference between a technical and execution aspect of coaching and the tactical and managerial side of things, which is why I'm always amazed by how head coaches are selected, similarly to how players turn to coaching.

Being a good coach doesn't mean you can run a team as top dog, and IMHO what we're seeing with Howley is exactly the case, inexperienced at coaching and totally out of his depth at stepping up.

But in what other industry would you expect a small unit manager (backs coach) whos been in his first job at a local mill for a year or so, step up to running one of the largest and most complex plants on the planet???

Misleading analogy to put it mildly.
Howley is a department head who reports directly to the operational manager. Hes gradually been groomed over a number of years to assist in all aspects, given then given the full reigns on a short term basis with supervision from his boss. Wales is only a temporary organisation that operates a few months a year anyway, and a relatively small player on the global scene. He also knows how to operate a laptop.
Stuart Lancaster on the other hand had a few years working in the R&D department with no direct contact with the full operational side of the business. He was then placed directly above an existing departmental staff and decided to recruit an almost entirely new production staff overnight. On the basis of that hes immediately been promoted in less than a year to an even higher role overseeing the entire both his previous roles and a massive new budget.
If a PE teacher can do that Im sure Rob Howley can mange to tell some Welsh people how to do exactly what theyve been doing for the previous few years. Its not like the Welsh gameplay ever changes under the Gatlantic empire.

Right then PSW

Howley was a department head who reported to an op manager (Dai Young) He was then promoted not to Youngs position (which would be natural) but above Youngs position into a team above Young.

Howley was not groomed by anyone, but chosen as the elite of the game because he liked to watch from an elevated position!

Wales is not a part time operation as it is a full time occupation and Howley could not take another post, as Edwards proved!!!

Wales is a small player on the global scene like Pepsi is a small fizzy drinks operation!

Lancaster was an outside choice because he had proven abilities in what the organisation needed at the time, solidity, structure, discipline and as England were running around like school children under MJ Lancaster fit the bill perfectly!!

So I disagree with every word you said.

Biscuit you so over complicate it - Try this:

Lancaster has the intelligence and composure of a man who is tactically astute and mature in both his selction and analysis - Howley was an outstanding international rugby player who is clueless as a coach and inept in most areas of rugby analysis. He lacks both intelligence and composure and to even comment on him next to Lancaster is like comparing a well developed and reliable BMW to a 1970's Britsh Leyland product. In fact I can just see Howley on the BL assembly line saying, "if it looks good and it rolls that's good enough for me" He is an absolute shables and way out of his depth here.

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Wales is a small player on the global scene like Pepsi is a small fizzy drinks operation!

Top soft drinks producers:
The Coca-Cola Company
PepsiCo
Nestlé
Suntory Holdings (Suntory)
Dr Pepper Snapple (DPS)
Red Bull
Groupe Danone (Danone)
Kirin Holdings (Kirin)
Asahi Breweries (Asahi)

Top International rugby teams:

1(1) NEW ZEALAND 90.08
2(2) SOUTH AFRICA 86.94
3(3) AUSTRALIA 86.87
4(4) FRANCE 85.07
5(5) ENGLAND 83.90
6(6) IRELAND 80.22
7(7) SAMOA 78.71
8(8) ARGENTINA 78.71
9(9) WALES 78.39



Wales are more an Asahi than they are a Pepsico. Feel free to describe Howley as Chief Ashai

thebluesmancometh wrote:Have to agree Griff, Howley inherited a wonder backline at the Blues, and profited from it, and it will be very interesting to see if he can get a very good backline going again.

My heart says as a 9, and a backs coach he'll favour an attacking gameplan but his selection is just so cowardly and safe I can't see it.

Bluesman, what do you make of our tactics the last few years? I've heard the rumour that the players are told to kick everything in our own half, and to kick it in field and chase and put pressure on, rather than kick for touch, then to run everything in the opposition half. Is this something that Gatland tells them specifically? I'd like them to be a bit more free to make their own decisions, e.g. Kick for touch if that's what feels right, or run from the 22 if it's on. If it is a Gatland tactic, do you think Howley may change this? I'm hoping so. He was a great attacking player himself, especially with the tap and go's. Its such a shame that our players are (apparently) boxed into certain decisions before they're even on the pitch!

I like running rugby, but sometimes the kick long and in field is just so obvious that it becomes a bit naive. I think it was Australia that were putting 3 back deep as they could then counter, get tackled, off load and still get back up the pitch. If the opposition have worked that out then it's a sign that you need to change your tactics! I know we're no lineout kings, especially tomorrow, but I feel we'd maybe get some success if we mixed it up now and again, kick out into touch deep and at least challenge the line out. We might get one or two!

Griff I have heard the same thing that the tactics are basically put the ball as depp as possible and force the oppositon to have to play in their own half, hoping for mistakes.

I did used to think that the players where a bit dense for not playing what was in front of them, but with the Gats has dispatched of players who didn't do as he said (Popham, Peel, Powell, T James), I think it could well be a case of the players not wanting to risk missing out on selection and sticking to the plan no matter what. I think it was after the Samoa game Priestland was interviewed and when asked about the aimless kicking he said something along the lines of, I was told to thump it down feild so that is what I did.