Wales' worst coach yet?

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As Robert Howley ensures that a Welsh man will not coach the team for a decade at least, has he surpassed Gareth Jenkins as our worst ever? Are there any other glaring failures? Is it fair to compare Howley, who has four professional regions to chose from with the coaches of the 80s who lost their best players to league?

Here's the official list:


List of head coaches:

Name Years Tests Won Drew Lost Win %
David Nash 1967 5 1 1 3 20.0
Clive Rowlands 1968–1974 29 18 4 7 62.1
John Dawes 1974–1979 24 18 0 6 75.0
John Lloyd 1980–1982 14 6 0 8 42.9
John Bevan 1982–1985 15 7 1 7 46.7
Tony Gray 1985–1988 18 9 0 9 50.0
John Ryan 1988–1990 9 2 0 7 22.2
Ron Waldron 1990–1991 10 2 1 7 20.0
Alan Davies 1991–1995 35 18 0 17 51.4
Alex Evans 1995 4 1 0 3 25.0
Kevin Bowring 1995–1998 29 15 0 14 51.7
Dennis John 1998 2 1 0 1 50.0
Graham Henry 1998–2002 34 20 1 13 58.8
Lynn Howells 2001 2 2 0 0 100.0
Steve Hansen 2002–2004 29 10 0 19 34.5
Mike Ruddock 2004–2006 20 13 0 7 65.0
Scott Johnson 2006 3 0 1 2 0.0
Gareth Jenkins. 2006–2007 20 6 1 13 30.0
Nigel Davies 2007 1 0 0 1 0.0
Warren Gatland. 2007–present. 56 28 1 27 50
Robin McBryde 2009 2 2 0 0 100.0
Rob Howley 2012 6 1 0 5 16.7

PSW - What drink does Asahi make?

Ye Gatland has certainly brought the kick chase game with him, low risk and high reward.

Try rates were crazy back in 2008 with most tries coming from turnovers in own half and most points from penalties in posession. Gatland was smart in selecting that gameplan initially and we prospered form teams who persisted with trying to run it back from their back 3 into a brick wall defence.

Idea was to get fitness levels up to a point where everytime we kicked long our defence was set and ready to meet the lone runners before they even got to halfway, and I like it. It might have been rigid but everyone was pulling together, everyone knew what was going to happen and there was no grey areas where players would get confused. Every forward lingered when the ball was kicked until played onside and then exploded in defence.

Problem now is that not only do teams know what the plan is they have had time to counter it in different ways and everyone knows how effective certain plays are to beat it.

Gatland was very clever 2012, he changed the focus from our fitness (pre world cup) to our size, and teams shifted from our kick chase game to fielding players based on their defencive abilities and IMHO once you tailor your team to your oposition strengths and not your own the games out of your hands!

If I was Howley I wouldve gone for a far more stylish gameplan based on the counter punch strategy. Used 2 fetchers and play a North Cuthebrt 1st receiver strategy on the turnover, risky playing your iwngers narrower but IMHO we'll know when Ireland go wide because they always carry at least 3 times first in the tight, and at least 2 of those will be coming round the corner. Our pack isn't as strong because of our lock injuries so a counter punch would make the most use of the weapons we had (2 of the best fetchers in europe)

I get the feeling though the kick will be prime directive out of our half and then a combination of strike runners off the 10's shoulder and shear battery of the blind side will be employed. This leaves us open to a large open field and Gilroy and Zebo are electric, if either get Cuthbert isolated we're in trouble!!

Essentially though if we revert to type we will still be hard to beat, and Ireland are one of the few teams who don't seem to know how to get around that (although they all but have but cant close us out)

Yeah that was it. Priestland was criticised for not running from the 22 too, and said he was told to kick it if in his own half. Seems daft. If you're a foot inside your half you have a different tactic than a foot in the other half?! Ridiculous. Not sure if it's that rigidely followed as that though.

But for me, if we're doing that tactic then we need to be kicking it a lot higher and chasing it. All I see is the ball being kicked long and the opposition having loads of time to return it by running or kicking. No one's really pressuring.

Biggar plays a good, varied game at the Ospreys. He can run and make breaks, he chips over the top, he does up n unders, and he kicks well for territory, I.e. he plays what's in front of him. That's why he's currently the form fly half, because he does it all well. I'd hate for him to be coached out for being instinctive and told what to do before it happens.

This is where I wonder if things will change without Gatland?

I agree about Biggar, he really does vary things, but I think a lot of pressure was put on RP unfairly.

Firstly was the bad press about his defence so teams targetted him, then he was charged down once and targetted more, then as things got worse the media were almost handing opposition a gameplan to get to him.

His running and distribution is far better than Biggars, he just was in a slump near the end.

I hope we play with more of a freedom, but at the same time with Gats gone I kinda hope we just steady the ship too, if we were to employ the kick long (which I don't hate because you get to set your defence and face single runners while making the opposing pack chase back constantly) and I suspect we will then we need to chase it hard, we selected about 6 rusty players in the AI's to play a fitness based tactic, be aggressive at the breakdown and make the most of the opportunities we get.

Also we NEED at least parity in the set peice!!

The kick long is based on one thing, your forwards ability to chase beyond the oppositions and get to the ball carriers before...

A/ he plays his forwards onside.

B/ his pack gets a chance to hit a ruck from the back foot.

If Wales get beyond the Irish forwards it is near impossible to secure the ruck, but if we chase poorly like in the AI's the ball carriers will break the line, or get on the front foot and get the forwards securing ball.

Apolgies for the above emoticons, my 6 year old stayed up for the rugby and saw me typing and he wanted to see these funny "things" he likes them

thebluesmancometh wrote:I agree about Biggar, he really does vary things, but I think a lot of pressure was put on RP unfairly.

Really I thought there would be more on Biggar, he has been hailed as the savior of welsh rugby for a while a few seasons now, just bizarrely overlooked. 7 game losing streak to break, get the backs playing the welsh way?

If it does go wrong will howler kick him into touch(probably miss) and start hook for the next game?

The last welsh coach to lose 7 games on the bounce resigned by the following morning, but i have a feeling the only coach to lose five on the bounce at home will somehow manage to pass the blame onto a charge down and a missed kick.

And to make it better we got 3 away games coming up!

I'm no fan of Howley as a coach but I don't think he can really be blamed for our 1st half horror show today. That was down to dreadful individual errors and lack of composure. Most of his more controversial selections worked (especially Coombs) though as most of us expected it was an error not starting with Tipuric.

Having said that he now needs to show some boldness though as there are some obvious changes to make for the next game and it is clear that some of our Lions contingent need to be dropped - Phillips, Jenkins, Rees are all being picked on past deeds. Even Adam Jones and Roberts need to up their games too as we have alternatives in those positions.

Howley picks the team, he is the weakest link, for the sake of Welsh national team say goodbye and take McBryde with you. The only positve for me was Coombs, he had a very good game and should remain in the squad instead of Shinger who was a waste of space.

Howley is apparently not the most likable guy in the world. I heard a lot of stories about him and his attitude when swanning around the Bridgend area. Though on the occasions I have met him he seems decent enough to be honest.

I'm not sure how much of this defeat is down to coaching.

Was he responsible for Cuthbert not covering Zebo properly, who sneaked in at the corner after a great finger tip pass from BoD?

Was he responsible for the Dan Biggar charge down for example? Did he make Dan step forward towards the on coming Irish defenders then delay his kick? Which led to a try in the corner.

Was he responsible for the third try where the Welsh defense did not cover the side of the ruck?

Bottom line is poor player decisions cost Wales the game today. Not bad coaching.

Too many players individual performances were below par, but it's hard to say who could of come in and been better in a lot of cases.

It's true that Howley picks the team but if Gatland was picking the team the same fundamental problems would have been there today. In my opinion our main problems are certain established players who have become undroppable in the Gatland era - Jenkins, Warburton (did ok today but it's madness that he is keeping the best 7 in Europe out of the team - his captaincy skills aren't exactly wonderful either), Phillips, Roberts etc. I don't rate Howley either but I hope he now takes the opportunity to make some bold selections. I doubt it will happen but selecting Coombs was something positive.

I say again he picks the team and sets the game plan which had to go out the window in the second half. I thought the captain was poor, there were a couple of penalties in front of the posts and we did not take the points also Ireland were down to 14 mans twice.

glamorganalun wrote:I say again he picks the team and sets the game plan which had to go out the window in the second half. I thought the captain was poor, there were a couple of penalties in front of the posts and we did not take the points also Ireland were down to 14 mans twice.

What about asking Jonathan Davies to be given a shot at being the Wales temporary head coach to see what he can do with all his experience gained as a BBC commentary analyst/rugby pundit.

He's been asked before, he's made it clear he doesn't want any coaching job.

Henry and Hansen have high win percentages with the All Blacks but were far from successful with Wales, particularly Hansen. The frustrating thing with Howley is that their countless matches against Australia were all close and they have shown glimpses of what they can be when they get things right. Unfortunately there are small margins in test rugby and when you get the little things wrong, you get punished.

Tactics and selections have been questionable from Howley but the players have let him down as well at key times in their run of losses.

Glas a du wrote:He's been asked before, he's made it clear he doesn't want any coaching job.

Really! When was he asked? If not Jonathan Davies,what about asking Ron Waldron if he wants another shot as the Wales Head Coach where at least he will have a better set of forwards to work with this time.

glamorganalun wrote:I say again he picks the team and sets the game plan which had to go out the window in the second half. I thought the captain was poor, there were a couple of penalties in front of the posts and we did not take the points also Ireland were down to 14 mans twice.

Agree about some poor captaincy decisions and it's true we didn't take full advantage of the sin bins. I think we should have taken more quick taps inside of scrums/line outs in that period between around 60-75 minutes. By the time Mitchell scored it was too late.

kia - Hansen managed to win a real match with Wales, that is better than Howley. Not meaning to be disrespectful but if any other coach in Wales' past had a run of loses like this they would have accepted responsibility for it, yet people still want to blame the players. Ditch the whole squad and bring in a whole new squad, it won't make any difference. And if the players are really that awful then isn't it still Howley's fault for selecting them in the squad, and team?

The only way I can think he is innocent is if Wales really doesn't have players up to international standards, and i refuse to believe that

I feel your pain. NZ doesn't suffer losses well. But take a coach like Deans. How many times has he beaten NZ? I think twice and a draw in quite a few games in the past few years. Last year they lost a few and he gets comments like he's a waste of space and bring in Ewen McKenzie as Deans is only a provincial coach. With the injuries he had to deal with it was amazing he won any games.

Howley has his own injury woes. Lydiate was a huge loss for Wales out there today and the locking crisis meant Jones couldn't go there and Tupiric start at 7. I can understand your frustration but Gatland came back and didn't stop the ship sinking either. I wouldn't want Howley as a coach but I don't think he's bad as some people say nor justifies comments like I hope Wales lose badly so we can get in somebody decent. Like who?

What was clearly obvios was that the likes of Tipuric, Owens, and James made a huge impact off the bench and showed far more than the players who started!!!

Not only that but Biggar proved he is lacking in int quality and untiol otherwise doesn't deserve to get the shirt, maybe a few sub appearances will help.

I'm happyu to see Rees, Jenkins, Shinglar dropped though, and most of us claimed they shouldnt have starte anyway and were proved bang on!

Cuthbert is such a poor rugby player it's nuts, he can strike run but nothing else.

PS BOD was not good at all, he was offered an armchair and a great platform first half and played a fe decent passes.

thebluesmancometh wrote:What was clearly obvios was that the likes of Tipuric, Owens, and James made a huge impact off the bench and showed far more than the players who started!!!

Not only that but Biggar proved he is lacking in int quality and untiol otherwise doesn't deserve to get the shirt, maybe a few sub appearances will help.

I'm happyu to see Rees, Jenkins, Shinglar dropped though, and most of us claimed they shouldnt have starte anyway and were proved bang on!

Cuthbert is such a poor rugby player it's nuts, he can strike run but nothing else.

PS BOD was not good at all, he was offered an armchair and a great platform first half and played a fe decent passes.

I agree with this post, after today's performance Racing Metro may be regretting signing Roberts he offered very little today and I have not seen anything from him for some time, Hook or S Williams offer more attacking threat. Today JD2 and Roberts should have been replaced by Hook and Williams not 7 mins from the end a sub Biggar!

Roberts' best position is FB. Wasted.

I wouldn't be so keen to give Howley any credit for Wales' fightback... When teams go down they take a nothing to lose approach and it often reduces the gap.... I.e. England New Zealand rwc95 semifinal... 30 points down by halftime they went on to score 29 points come then end of the match with desperate nothing to lose rugby.

Selection was pretty dire.... Front row are a bunch of has evens esp. Jenkins and Rees. Phillips pass is too slow and it hindered biggar all day.

France away next.....brrrrrrr

fa0019 wrote:I wouldn't be so keen to give Howley any credit for Wales' fightback... When teams go down they take a nothing to lose approach and it often reduces the gap.... I.e. England New Zealand rwc95 semifinal... 30 points down by halftime they went on to score 29 points come then end of the match with desperate nothing to lose rugby.

Selection was pretty dire.... Front row are a bunch of has evens esp. Jenkins and Rees. Phillips pass is too slow and it hindered biggar all day.

France away next.....brrrrrrr

Thats true fa but England werent playing the same team in the second half. Eyes were half on the final by then, so its a combination of the two, one with nothing to lose, and one with nothing further to gain, both efforts deciding the margin only. England scored twice in the final few minutes to get within 15- the result was long gone. Scotland rallied similarly today but England just put the foot on the throat again.