Key areas for Wales

These are so important.....

9. Lloyd Williams
6. Tipuric (miss Lydiate so badly)
12. Hook (Roberts offers nothing and Biggar was good other than the chargedown)

Wales need a twinkle toed rugby brain at 12. Nobody does it like Henson or Hook. Wales are still passing before drawing the man. Overlaps and being butchered unnecessarily.

Totally agree with those changes for the France game. I would also start with James instead of Jenkins, and probably Owens for Rees despite a couple of line out disasters at crucial moments.

Tipuric made a massive difference when he came on. He really is a top class player and should be the first name on the team sheet.

Coombs had an outstanding 2nd half I thought and Evans did well given that it was his first game back.

Roberts was absolutely useless there, but yeah Tips and Warbs at 6/7

I wish henson hadn't disappeared form LW a few months back because I'd love him at 12 but yeah Hook's gotta make it his

Henson is cursed wirh injury and is back fot LW tomorrow.

Wales really haven't found class replacements for Henson, Shanklin or Peel.

Jon Davies threw some awful passes and had an off game.

Cuthbert has so much gas he is so eagre. North was very similar to Roberts today and he didn't look for work. Eli Walker for North isn't a bad idea.

My team v France - assuming the likes of Hibbard and all our other 2nd rows are still injured

1. James
2. Owens
3. Jones (needs to up his game though, Mitchell did well)
4. Coombs
5. Evans
6. Warburton
7. Tipuric
8. Faletau (superb today)
9. Williams
10. Hook
11. Walker
12. Scott Williams
13. JD (passing practice please!)
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny

16. Jenkins
17. Rees
18. Mitchell
19. Kohn
20.Ryan or Shingler
21. Phillips (wish we had alternatives)
22. Biggar
23. Roberts

I thought Biggar was good apart from the charge down. But what flyhalf hasn't had to learn that lesson. I remember Hook getting charged down in a very similar fashion by ROG in one of his early Welsh starts.

What about bringing Gavin Henson in at 10, move Biggar to 12, bring in Hook at 15 and bring in someone like Ceri Sweeney at 13?

I'd drop Gethin Jenkins, for Paul James. Jenkins is being picked on past achievements but doesn't deserve to be there on that performance.

Richard Hibbard should be the Welsh hooker, he is on form and hungry. Owens caused chaos in the Welsh line out when he came on, and Rees was woeful today.

Adam Jones did his job in the scrum thats why he's there, to scrum and get under the oppositions skin.

I wouldn't of picked Coombs today, and I doubt any other fan would of either, but he did brilliantly and deserves a run. Especially since AWJ and Charteris are injured.

Evans played his first game since November and was full of fire, he can be very proud of himself.

Faletau worked hard and tried to take the ball forward. I'd drop Shingler and let Tipuric and Warburton be the flankers.

Phillips picks himself at scrum half, because he has no real challengers.

I'd bring in Hook for the French game, simply because the French respect him so much and rate him very highly. They'll be less confident with him in the starting line up.

Assuming the French stay with Wesley Fofana on the right wing against us (like Italy), then I'd let Eli Walker have a go against him, their more or less the same size. North goes on the other wing. with Halfpenny at Full back.

In the centres I'd keep Jamie Roberts for his defense, but Scott Williams should come in for Jonathan Davies. Two aimless passes at the touchline, ruining Welsh momentum. daft play to be honest.

We missed a big 6 today R Jones must come back at 6 and Tips for Warburton. I would puts Coombs on the bench for 6, 8 and 4 cover he is much better than the soft Shingler who was nowhere to be seen. Biggar had an OK game but nearly got charged down again in the second half and he is no running threat hence Hook is worth a go. I suspect it is going to be a wooden spoon fight this year, Wales will probably beat England despite the coaching and team selection.

Shifty, agree with everything you say apart from the fact that as posted above I would drop Roberts instead of Davies. Those passes were shocking but Davies has been probably our most consistent player for the last 12 months - a bad game for him but he improved a lot. Roberts has done nothing other than run straight with his head down for the last 3 years...

We have to stick with Biggar, build on this game. He didnt drop head in the 2nd half, game changed with HIM on the park, not when hook came on. give the guy credit.

who hasnt been charged down at sometime in their career? Hook a few
times certainly.

1st 6 nations game, never played behind a first rate welsh team in all his 11 caps.

HE DIDNT LOSE THE 10 SHIRT TODAY.

and the french know all about hooks game at 10, so stick him in the centre if he has to play.

wings and jd dire in defence, biggar gave ball to the centres, they were hopeless.

hook is not a running threat anymore, angles and slight of hand maybe, but not a threat.

Cadair Idris wrote:Shifty, agree with everything you say apart from the fact that as posted above I would drop Roberts instead of Davies. Those passes were shocking but Davies has been probably our most consistent player for the last 12 months - a bad game for him but he improved a lot. Roberts has done nothing other than run straight with his head down for the last 3 years...

Hang on Shifty apparently wants to drop Cuthbert who was excellent. However since North seemed to be doing a lot of work in the centre maybe he'd be a better swap for Roberts.

Hook was on for only 7 mins and Wales scored a try in that time, I would have started with Hook as he is more used to the intensity of the 6N and should have learn t from his past mistakes. Dan had a fair game he is much better than Preistland which is a positive also he did come back from the charge down.

The biggest disappointment for me was the first half defence, Ireland looked like scoring every time they had the ball in the first half.

Gethin had a good game in the loose but the scrum was iffy I like most would have picked James.

We must bring in R Jones into the back row, Shingler where was he and I think we will get stuffed in France if we go with the same back row. Give me Coombs over Shingler or any of the Scarlets back row every time. With luck we may have found another utility back row player. Faletau had his best game in over a year shame Warburton and Shingler did not turn up. I hope Hibbard is fit for the next game

Dontheman, Cuthbert wasn't excellent, apart from his quick running. His defence is poor and he lacks the vision to pass. He is still raw and needs more time to develop his game.

"Jon Davies threw some awful passes and had an off game. " -- It's hardly the first time anyone has seen JD throw awful passes. It's the biggest weakness of his game. Although int level is not the place for basic skills training, some of these players need it! Absolutely awful.

Key areas for Wales - Well we know one area that won't be changed and we are stuck with Howley.

Team I would go for:

James
Hibbard (if fit)
Jones
Coombs
Evans
Warburton (we all know he will start)
Faletau
Tipuric

Williams (though still have doubts and a lot didnt want him in squad)
Biggar

North
Roberts
JD
Halfpenny

Byrne

1. Paul James
2. Richard Hibbard (Matthew Rees)
3. Adam Jones
4. Ryan Jones
5. Ian Evans
6. Sam Warburton
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Toby Faletau
9. Mike Phillips
10. Dan Biggar
11. George North
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Rees/Owens
17. Bevington
18. Mitchell
19. Coombes
20. Shingler
21. Williams
22. Hook
23. Williams

606,

Wouldn't argue with Jones in second row but do think it would be harsh on Coombs and whilst Cuthberts scores tries his defence is shocking and I think he should have got to Zebo.

People who are giving Biggar stick for his performance today want to open there blood eyes. Yes he had a kick charged down but for his first start in any match of real consequence (tournament) and to play for 73 minutes as he did, i thought he was excellent.

Jonathan Davies called for his head at half time over a charge down. I can pinpoint several more experienced players who were much worse in that first half.

North took 35 minutes to touch the ball.
Gethin Jenkins penalised at scrum time and made little to no impact around the field.
Ian Evans, an experienced yet ring rusty 2nd row running into contact higher than the statue of liberty. Ball turned over.
Warburton anomynous for large periods.
Jonathan davies throwing the ball into touch (once is a mistake but twice is careless).
Cuthberts defence for the Zebo try was awful.

Also the criticism of Phillips is nigh on pathetic. He had absolutely no platform until the 2nd half and then bossed the game well. Pressurising Ireland and really putting himself about.

And before someone starts talking about slow ball, Ireland did a job on us there. Not Phillips' fault.

This is not aimed at anyone in particular but the usual fluff post match is annoying.

Players who really stood up for Wales today in the end for me were:

Tupuric, offers more in attack than any of the starting players bar Faletau. Cleaned out rucks well.
Faletau an absolute ball carrying monster. Much more solid today.
Coombes was outstanding. He lost the ball in contact once or twice in the first half but really put himself about.
Rees suprised me. Excellent at the set piece.
Biggar
Phillips
Cuthbert apart from that defensive frailty.

My team for next week would be:

1.Paul James (if we start jenkins we will get hammered scrum time)
2.Mathew Rees
3.Adam Jones
4.Coombes
5.Evans
6.Warburton
7.Tupuric
8. Faletau
9.Phillips
10.Biggar
11.Cuthbert
12.Roberts
13.JD2
14.Halfpenny
15.Byrne

16. Hibbard (hopefully)
17. Jenkins
18. Mitchel
19. R Jones
20. Kohn
21. Ll Williams
22. Hook
23. North

Hopefully a team like this would give us a solid start and good impact from the bench.

permian, spot on. same as you on biggar. he's not liked by some because he edged out hook and call it any way you want he would have to have an absolutely faultless, magnificent game before they would even find one positive. seen the match again, apart from the charge down he did his job. pity the centres didnt use the ball they were given.

he deserves the same chance at 10 as the rest of our 10s have been given.

including this game he has had 12 caps and started only in 7 of them.for his first 6ns he did ok.well done .

One key area that can definitely be improved - body language. Confidence is low - understandably so after the last few results, but it is all the more important that you fight against the stooped shoulders and anguished faces. At various points in the early going, there were one or two (Cuthbert especially springs to mind), who didn't give the impression of self-belief. "Here we go again" could almost be detected from a thought bubble.

Again, this is understandable. However, this is where leadership kicks in. Blaming Howley is the easy route - Wales must have leaders all over the field. There is still plenty of experience; men like Roberts, Phillips and Adam Jones, as well as Warburton, need to step up, breathe defiance and haul their younger team-mates with them.

Hibbard, Kohn and Tipuric would make a big difference to the starting XV.

Though Gethin was unlucky with the penalty - he put a big hit on Ross, who crumpled underneath him. Other than that he looked okay, if a bit rusty. Same with Adam.

Without Lydiate hitting people low, teams find it easy to carry the ball forward against us. Not sure what the answer to that is. Maybe Ryan could have a go at some old school tackling...

Casartelli, Jenkins did not deserve to start -- he has done nothing to earn that starting shirt. The fact that he was a Test Lion with MR and AJ shouldn't mean that Howley jumps at the chance to puit them together again, ignoring the form of individual players.

Given that Warbs is captain and would therefore start, he had to play 6 to make room for the in-form Tips. I would therefore have had Kohn in with Ian E to start -- to give a solid front 5 for 2 opensides in the back row. As it turned out, there weren't many scrums but Tips' work at the breakdown might have made a huge difference in the first half. We'll never know. I walso would have had 1/2p on the right wing instead of Cuthbert, with Byrne at FB.

Is anybody surprised after the rubbish versus Samoa and Argentina? We were outplayed across the park by the same old Ireland side and the game was over after 30 mins. We will be easily beaten by France & England. The key for us this year is whether we can get a result against an improving, but still raw Scotland.

Ireland - thanks for the lesson in creative back play and dynamism in the loose.

Wales need an experienced team who have been through this sort of plight. Young players are fantastic to have if you want to build a team but constantly throwing them out there to fail is only going to damage there confidence.

Warburton needs to start at 6 but the capataincy needs to be removed. The pressure needs to be relieved. I would pick Mike Phillips as Captain. A vocal, aggressive player who all of the other players should have respect for.

Instead of setting the world alight Wales need to be Solid from 1-15. I named a team with cuthbert in it earlier in the thread. I would ammend my previous option and swap him with north (lesser of two evils at the moment).

Solid ball carriers, set-piece and defence.

It is evident that the current coaching team, no longer have what it takes to inspire the team.

Edwards is a shadow of his former self. Hiding away from the cameras. Probably wishing he left for Englands coaching team.

Wales need to rid themselves of Howley, Edwards, McBryde and put together a formidable coaching team who will challenge Gatlands Ideas. Having a complete dictator in charge will never lead to any change in game-plan.

samuraidragon wrote:Is anybody surprised after the rubbish versus Samoa and Argentina? We were outplayed across the park by the same old Ireland side and the game was over after 30 mins. We will be easily beaten by France & England. The key for us this year is whether we can get a result against an improving, but still raw Scotland.

Ireland - thanks for the lesson in creative back play and dynamism in the loose.

Samurai,

I said all along that if we didn't get a win yesterday then we will be in a battle for the spoon and I still think that now.

We go to France now on the back of 8 losses and if we start like that next week then France will be way more than 20 in front of us, as should IReland of been.

We would then go to Italy on the back of 9 losses and Italy are no mugs at home

I would say if Wales was going to drop any one it would be George North, Mike Phillips, Gethin Jenkins.

I did not even realise that George North was in the team for the first 30/35 minutes. Never seen him do any thing.

Mike Phillips was and has been a great scrum half for Wales, but it is time to let him out to pasture and bring his replacement Loyd Williams for the starting birth.

Gethin Jenkins? What as he done to deserve to start for Wales? nothing thats what. He is not even first choice for his club.

Biggar did nothing wrong in my opinion to lose the 10 shirt.

Jamie Roberts? Dont think he should start next week....like wise that JD2. He needs to learn to look before passing/ trying to pass the ball. And not throw the ball behind the player and in to touch.

majesticimperialman wrote:I would say if Wales was going to drop any one it would be George North, Mike Phillips, Gethin Jenkins.

I did not even realise that George North was in the team for the first 30/35 minutes. Never seen him do any thing.

Mike Phillips was and has been a great scrum half for Wales, but it is time to let him out to pasture and bring his replacement Loyd Williams for the starting birth.

Gethin Jenkins? What as he done to deserve to start for Wales? nothing thats what. He is not even first choice for his club.

Biggar did nothing wrong in my opinion to lose the 10 shirt.

Jamie Roberts? Dont think he should start next week....like wise that JD2. He needs to learn to look before passing/ trying to pass the ball. And not throw the ball behind the player and in to touch.

Maj...completely agree re. north and Jenkins.

As a scrumhalf i completely disagree with peoples assessment of him. He was one of Wales' top performers yesterday. Tackling, passing etc. If people continue to lay the blame at his door I would say they have absolutely no idea about good scrumhalf play and the difficulties associated with it.

Forwards did not provide clean ball almost all match. I would start looking at the centre partnership. Moving Roberts to 13 and bringing in beck at 12.

As for the wings. I would love to move 1/2p to right wing and put a form player in walker on the other. Bring Byrne in at 15 for his running lines.

I would also bring in Tipuric and maybe take off either Singler, or Warburton.

I know they wont take off Warburton, simply because he is Captain and that makes him bullet proof i guess.

maj

Such ignorance is baffling!!!

Phillips fights like tooth and nail, and when we are about to enter a fight for a spoon thats exactly what we'll need, the fact that you want Williams over him says more about your lack of knowledge than anything else!

How do you ask a wing to get into a game where you have no posession, no teritory and you pack is folding like wet paper bag?!

Biggar has once agian shown he is solid and dependable but a yard behind the international pace required, I jope he learns from yesterday.

Jenkins was always going to be a rusty good for nothing pen machine!!!

If Tipuric doesn't get a start next game it will be a travesty, he was superb and seemed to take total control of the tackle area!

Also like to see Hokk given more of a chance, just like the world cup semi he was thrown into a no win situation.

Why are people so focused on the backline? The backline won't make a jot of difference if we can't deliver our own lineout, or gain parity at scrumtime. Not to mention allowing a 9 for a view of the ball unobstructed at least a few times per game!

As ive said.

Make Phillips captain

In respect of North - I don't think we have the luxury of dropping the only player on the pitch who made more than 70m.

He made 92.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Why are people so focused on the backline? The backline won't make a jot of difference if we can't deliver our own lineout, or gain parity at scrumtime. Not to mention allowing a 9 for a view of the ball unobstructed at least a few times per game!

gavstar wrote:We have to stick with Biggar, build on this game. He didnt drop head in the 2nd half, game changed with HIM on the park, not when hook came on. give the guy credit.

who hasnt been charged down at sometime in their career? Hook a few times certainly.

Including the last time we played France in Paris. It led to a try. Oh, and he got yellow carded, too.

Biggar should keep the shirt.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Why are people so focused on the backline? The backline won't make a jot of difference if we can't deliver our own lineout, or gain parity at scrumtime. Not to mention allowing a 9 for a view of the ball unobstructed at least a few times per game!

Because the back play was very poor and has been for a while (Halfpenny excepted). This is more or less the backline that won the slam last year, so why it can no longer tackle or make breaks is an important question.

We weren't making that many breaks in last season's tournament, either. The difference then was that the opposition couldn't quite hold out against our direct, physical approach ('quite' is the key word - all our victories were narrow ones). They knew what was coming. Everyone we play knows what's coming.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:We weren't making that many breaks in last season's tournament, either. The difference then was that the opposition couldn't quite hold out against our direct, physical approach ('quite' is the key word - all our victories were narrow ones). They knew what was coming. Everyone we play knows what's coming.

Agreed. But isn't that a sufficient reason for changing it?

A change is seasons overdue.

Does Jamie Roberts still play for Wales? I thought he hadn't played for 2 years as I haven't seen him or heard his name mentioned during a game in that time.

Casartelli wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Why are people so focused on the backline? The backline won't make a jot of difference if we can't deliver our own lineout, or gain parity at scrumtime. Not to mention allowing a 9 for a view of the ball unobstructed at least a few times per game!

Strangely enough the area that most of us were worried about - the second row - went well. It was the rest that was poor (Halfpenny excepted).

I can see the logic of keeping Biggar at 10 - despite the 7 point chargedown that Hook would have been crucified for - but we need to address the lack of creativity in the rest of the line. Stale, predictable, ponderous rugby is what we are serving up.

I don't take much heart from the second half that we are crowing about and the irish are beating themselves up for either. The game was over as a contest by that stage. Even with their 14 men, the irish were thinking of next week's match. Our play had more heart to it, but still lacked intelligence and guile as we continued trying to bosh over from short range, choosing to run at the opposition players, rather than past them.

That's exactly it, Samurai. It's a battering-ram approach and against the best defences it won't work, or won't work often enough.

Watched scrum V last night and S Holley came on with his analysis my first thought was nooooo but, he was spot on he correctly rubbished the captain's performance and pointed out the difference between him and Tipuric, he also promoted R Jones to the back row instead of Warburton at 6. How many easy penalties did Wales turn down rather than scrums and line outs that ran the clock down, I counted 6. Rubbish captaincy, Warburton has made the same errors Robshaw made for England during the AI's.

Alun, we were 30 - 15 down with 12 minutes left and we won a penalty in front of the posts. Warburton opted for the kick to the corner. That's crazy.

Warburton has made the same errors Robshaw made for England during the AI's.

The difference between Robshaw and Warburton in the Ais. Is that Robshaw had not been in the captaincy of England for 1 year.

How long as Warburton had the captains arm band for Wales?

I have been saying for a long time that Warburton should have earn the write to be Captain of Wales. And not keep on to it by default.

majesticimperialman wrote:Warburton has made the same errors Robshaw made for England during the AI's.

The difference between Robshaw and Warburton in the Ais. Is that Robshaw had not been in the captaincy of England for 1 year.

How long as Warburton had the captains arm band for Wales?

I have been saying for a long time that Warburton should have earn the write to be Captain of Wales. And not keep on to it by default.

Maj, I think Wales made a very bad decision to bring Warbs back in for Oz series down under. Since then he's been leading a young side who have been losing, whilst having his own credentials/leadership questioned and trying to play himself back into fitness/form. We need to remember this is a young welsh side, the most of whom have only really experienced relative success (rwc/6nations) so this downward spiral needs somethign to stop it.

And what that is, to me, is players who know the welsh set up and are playing well, or players who are fresh to the set up but playing well in WINNING teams.

So thats players like Paul James, Hibbard, Rhys Gill, Olly Kohn, Tipuric. To me selection is by far the biggest problem in wales at the moment, we have the players to get results, but they're not selected.

Then, the players that are selected are given jobs that dont promote their own strengths.

Having Roberts/Faletau running straight into set defences over and over again with no decoy runners or anyone following up on the angle. Sending North/Roberts round the corner off a lineout. Italy showed that if you want to go straight, thats fine, as long as you keep changing the point of attack and actually offload the ball.

"offload the ball" -- how dare, how very dare you ...

You'd have to change the playing philosophy of the Welsh coaching team for that to happen.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Alun, we were 30 - 15 down with 12 minutes left and we won a penalty in front of the posts. Warburton opted for the kick to the corner. That's crazy.

A quick penalty in front of the posts wastes little time and we are then two scores behind. Ireland gave a way a lot of penalties due to the pressure they were under hence there is a good chance of another coming soon after. Kicking for the corner wastes two minutes or more and even if we scored we would still be two scores behind even making the convertion which will take longer than the original penalty. We turned down a lot of penalties not only one including a long range penalty in the first half well within Halfpenny's range.

glamorganalun wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Alun, we were 30 - 15 down with 12 minutes left and we won a penalty in front of the posts. Warburton opted for the kick to the corner. That's crazy.

A quick penalty in front of the posts wastes little time and we are then two scores behind. Ireland gave a way a lot of penalties due to the pressure they were under hence there is a good chance of another coming soon after. Kicking for the corner wastes two minutes or more and even if we scored we would still be two scores behind even making the convertion which will take longer than the original penalty. We turned down a lot of penalties not only one including a long range penalty in the first half well within Halfpenny's range.

No cool heads. Mike P. catching a restart that was going out. Players running into traffic instead making use of the one man advantage. Not taking those penalties.

This has a got a real end-of-regime feel to it. I feel we have gone as far as we can with this coaching team, Gatland included.

Wales were poor in the first half, players missing passes, getting turned over not taking advantage of good plays, but we conceded three tries by poor defence not consistent individual error.


Cuthbert school boy error turned his back to a player.

Cian Healy no forwards at the ruck defending our line

BOD even less forwards at the ruck defending our line.


Wales played a poor game, not one man in the team played a faultless game but the truth of it is Ireland weren't much better. We should have prevented their tries, and despite that, we could easily have won in the second half. We have four more games and if we improve as much as we did from start to finish in the first game in the next four matches we'll put a cricket score on our final opponent.

We have very good options to bring in that will change our team, Tipuric and Ryan have been in superb form.

In the backs we have Liam Williams and Lee Byrne to come in if we want.

This tournament the teams are a lot closer than you lot all think they are.