Rugby and the Grey areas that seem to be drifting towards Black

It's Kimmage.  To some a trouble-maker.  To some an eternal moan who never seems to have a satisfying day in his life.  To some a very dangerous guy who never knows when to shut the hell up.  To some - perhaps he's all of those things but also a compulsive truth seeker who is seldom a smoke without fire guy.  
He's meticulous in his research.  He's dogged in interviews.  He's a hard man who doesn't get side-tracked or scared off.

When the Lance Armstrong issue was finally resolved with Armstrong's final declaration that his career was a lie, I'll admit my first selfish thought was a little anger at people like Walsh and Kimmage.  I was a little annoyed that they devoted so much of their time to a single sport.  But because I was happy to see a sneering, taunting, dangerously bitter guy like Armstrong being held up and forced to call the Disney fantasy career a fake, I remember thinking that I hoped someone like Kimmage or Walsh didn't get lazy and rest up on the smugness that he and LeMond and a few others had won the fight of their careers.  To be blunt about it, I often hoped Kimmage might probe rugby; have a look at what might be under the lid and be honest about what he found.

Seems he's beginning to take a step or two down the very avenue I never truly thought he'd thread.

At first this article below appears too long (typical Kimmage) and at first I didn't think I was going to devote time enough to read it or even get the gist of the topic.  But it catches you from the start and it goes to places that might become uneasy for teams, players, organisations into the medium future.  We often ignore a lot of what goes on in France because of the language barrier but it seems interesting things go on and probably more interesting books get written than the cliched rugby player autobiographies we get in our English speaking world

Anyway, for anyone who wants a read:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/international-rugby/paul-kimmage-rugby-has-to-face-up-to-its-growing-pains-30766512.html

I do wonder when I look back at players even just six or seven years ago, and the gains made in size since then- are we going to see a scandal in rugby? In the arms race of trying to get bigger and faster the rugby world is engaged in, and especially over in France where forward play dominates, eventually someone will cross the line if this isn't happening already. Is rugby doing enough to prepare for that? To prevent that?

The attitude of the IRB we've seen over the past few years is to stick its head in the sand about every single issue it faces and do nothing, so I'd say no. This article is sobering because everything about the reaction to Monsieur Benezechs rather measured points suggests a sport with something to hide to me.

He says it well here;

What interests me is if the athlete takes a sleeping pill during a period when he is using corticoids because now, inside his body, he's got this potentially dangerous mix. That was my only goal. That's the message I wanted to send to the players.

I wanted them to stop listening to these guys telling them they're great, and that if they take medication they'll be even better because one day these guys won't care. Somebody new will come along and the player will be left on his own and if he develops some disease linked to all of the medication he took, he'll have to deal with that alone. That's the sad part of it.

As well as talking about potential diseases, you could just as easily talk about injuries caused by the exponential growth in players sizes. The trend towards bigger and faster is taking its toll on players bodies and if it's all above board then fair enough- it is a contact sport- but whether Benezech is dead right or completely wrong, I'm now convinced its time rugby gets very proactive and strict about making sure all gains are natural. Over-powered players in this sport shorten the careers of themselves and others, so we can't afford any cheating to get bigger or stronger.

Will the IRB do anything to make sure the game is clean? Don't count on it.

Good piece. Thanks to you and Notch for posting it.

When Benezech talks about the start of his own international career, he actually describes the kind of mentality which would lead some players to cross the line.

I tore my ankle after 20 minutes and thought 'If I leave the pitch now, it's the last time I'll wear this jersey.'"

We already know that players will bend the rules on and off the pitch to get an advantage for themselves of for the team so it would be surprising if this didn't extend to "medical assistance".

There have been high profile cases in Australia in both Rules and League, in which whole club cultures were compromised, so Union has no reason at all to be complacent.

I remember reading this story about Sam Chalmers, Craig's son, who failed a test in 2013 aged 18 and whose story is part of an IRB "educational" video.

This quote comes back to haunt me when I think of many players of previous slight frame who have bulked up:

Sam Chalmers wrote:"I'd been getting under pressure. A lot of people say you've got the skills and stuff - you just need to put on weight, get bigger," said Chalmers, speaking on behalf of an IRB educational campaign.

Really chilling was this section:

BBC wrote:A recent study in South Africa shocked the World Anti-Doping Agency's director-general David Howman.
"We've encouraged the South African Institute for Drug-Free Sport to run a pilot study in South African schools, and I was told about the results the other day," he said.
"There were 12 positive cases out of 52 collected samples. That's horrendous, and they were all steroids.

I've said this before but I know for a fact that c.10 years ago academy/college age guys (not from the club in my username) were using steroids. They used the same gym as the senior squad and its hard to believe that at least someone didn't realise/turn a blind eye.

Obviously this was a while ago and could have been a one off group of lads doing something stupid, but somehow I don't think so.

Sam Chalmers was probably a little naïve though. Bought them online, on his own. Had he gone to someone in the know I doubt he would have been caught, as least so quickly.

Crazy how HGH has no viable test mind.

I worry when I see some kids unbelievably developed. We can't name names here but if say 21 year old kid in his first season weighs in at 125kg as a lock and is pure lean muscle then you really have to wonder what is going on. The strength of some guys are getting ridiculous too. We're talking guys who are bench pressing +400Ibs... some hardly older than 23.

Elite sport does attract natural freaks I acknowledge that but everyone in the past were freaks too and it took years for kids to develop their bodies in such a way still.

My pro team had to re-stock their gym for a youngster who complained that they didn't have weights heavy enough for him..... this is one of the biggest clubs in the world I would add and they had to re-stock for a youngster.

Its very worrying and looking at the size of some chaps I fear its simply a matter of time before scandal occurs in our game.

I'm more amazed that anyone could think that the sport could be drug free. The sheer number of people involved means that at least a few must be on gear. What's more important to me is that as much as possible it's controlled, the people using it are well aware of the repercussions and know to look out for any signs of illness/reaction.

Probably not what other people think but getting rid of drug use in sport is impossible, so the second best thing is to educate every one about it, then if the players do want to use drugs hopefully at least they can do it as safely as possible.

As an aside, you would also be amazed what can be achieved naturally these days with the right lifestyle, diet and training.

Comparing these athletes who live, breath and sleep their training to anyone outside of it is just silly.

yappysnap wrote:I'm more amazed that anyone could think that the sport could be drug free. The sheer number of people involved means that at least a few must be on gear. What's more important to me is that as much as possible it's controlled, the people using it are well aware of the repercussions and know to look out for any signs of illness/reaction.

Probably not what other people think but getting rid of drug use in sport is impossible, so the second best thing is to educate every one about it, then if the players do want to use drugs hopefully at least they can do it as safely as possible.

It's true that there will always be a chemist somewhere prepared to concoct something that for a while will go undetected.  Yes, there will always be sports people who try to get an edge through drug usage.  And already we all know there are undectable ways being used at present - xenon gas being one of the latest on my radar.

But to your points more particularly:

One - call me cruel or call me non-caring - I don't know what people would choose to call me when I say the very least of my concerns are the athlete's health risks.  Yes, I'd feel bad if I knew for a fact an athlete's serious health issues - be they heart, or liver, or brain, or lungs - were the direct result of the abuse of PEDs.  Yes, I'm empathetic to those conclusions but I do consider the concern for atheles who take these drugs over the concern for the advantages they seek to gain by using them, as an evasion of the real reason drugs are an issue.

People across the world take drugs of some sort and for their own personal reasons.  Some over-do prescription drugs when suffering chronic pain, some over-do recreational drugs whether that be drink, smoking or the 'socially acceptable' forms of party drugs.  Then others move on and over-do the serious street drugs - and then we have the sports drug cheats who sometimes over-do their cheating and give themselves the health nightmares.  
But in perhaps all of those situations (bar the heavy street drugs that are highly addictive and destructive) many people seem to be of the opinion that concern for the welfare of these people can only go so far.  In the end, they are making their own informed decisions, most of them know the risks and so if they choose to keep partaking, then the consequences are with them.

So many of these trained athletes (rugby players as an example) are intelligent men who know a good bit about medical issues because many of them get injured and that knowledge grows through their careers.  They also know about nutrition to an extent, and about minerals and vitamins etc etc.  
And they know about the underground info on the other stuff - what it's supposed to do, how it helps, what some of the side effects might be.  These players aren't dumb - they read the fitness and health mags the same as normal people, they read the muscle building mags - they read the science of risk thayt goes with these products and are aware of even the gossip of risk that is always linked to the PEDs.  
So they are aware of the risk and if we're going to get into a situation where the IRB will see its role as only pointing out the health risks, then we're holding up the white flag to the more important issue.

The more important issue is that PEDs (non detectable methods of performance enhancing that would be deemed illegal if discoverable) is seeking to get an Unfair Advantage in Sport that has implications for who wins, who loses, who goes up a League, who goes down one, who goes up Rankings, who goes down, who gets big Sponsorship, who doesn't, who can afford biggest stars, who can't.  Ongoing cheating influences position, reputation, funding, sponsorship, following and the simple Glow of Victory.

So yes, illegal methods will always be there - but the search for the ones who engage in illegal methods to gain advantage, and punishment of those who are found to engage in it, should be as perpetual as the drugs themselves.  Because when a cheat cheats, an honest athlete loses.

Two:  An athlete does know though when the form of a fellow athlete is beyond the texture and size and composition of normal and real.  If you can live, breath and sleep training, that in itself suggests assistance in the resolve to do so.  
The human body can do so much and then it must either repair or break down - the physiology of training and rest is chemical.  It doesn't matter how naturally big you are, you are a human and must abide by the physiological constraints of your species OR, you get help in defying those chemical constraints by adding new chemistry to the stew.

I think I completely agree with you Fly.

Although it may be a more even playing field then we all suspect as going by this article and the general size of all players in all leagues in all the pro leagues globally, I don't think there's any that aren't.

It's not like there's this one team of huuuuuuge motha-Frak out there smashing every one about. It's either happening every where or no where.

I suppose like anyone who has been around rugby and gyms over the last twenty years I have come accross some guys on gear. Some very obvious huge guys, with no body fat really aggressive and very bad acne particularly on their backs. It was like a dianabol trademark.
The main reason guys take it is simply because nomal training methods can not produce the gains as quickly. A young lad eating well and training well is still a young lad with young muscles. They put on muscle very slowly as the body has to get used to lifting the bigger weights and they tend to plateau quickly as the growth hormones can't keep up with demand.
I would theorise that many current pros were on gear at a young age to boost their muscle growth. When playing junior rugby they were probably little if ever tested. Once their muscles had developed and grown they could come off the gear probably for good in most cases. Yes the muscle would have faded also but it is much easier to get big again as long as muscles have had that growth previously.

This is a very touchy subject, I have had numerous let's call them "debates" over this, and what infuriates me the most is the ignorance of most people who will come up with, oh my god, look at the size on this lot, they must be on the gear. When I hear people saying things like this it infuriates me, why, because I know first hand how much work these people put into the way they look, just to play rugby, I know first hand what sacrifices young kids have to make to get anywhere in pro rugby these days, and not only the kids, but the parents as well, these players at a very young age are now eating the right food, doing the correct exorcise, taking the correct supplements, these young kids cannot go to the toilet without putting extra muscles on, they work hard, and they do not play hard, I have seen kids playing in district levels staying at home on a weekend whilst their friends are all hanging out at McDonald's or Nando's, I have seen these kids not bothering with their friends on weekends as it will spoil their rugby careers, I am not saying that illegal drug taking does not happen, but lets at least get some perspective on this and realise the actual work, from a very young age that they put into looking the way they do, all in the name of rugby.

LD - you are right. However ruthless people also do everything possible to gain the edge. that may include ice chambers, altitude chambers etc while the use of legal supplements is pretty much endemic - and once you have started down that route of popping pills to aid strength or recovery it is a much smaller step to then move to illegal pills.

The number of youth players around the world failing tests is rising all the time - and will only get worse before it gets better. The requirement of the modern rugby player to train like crazy, play week in week out in a high impact sport means it is quite easy to believe that there are medical teams who will take the short cut.

LD

Size can come, but it takes a long time to get large. Drugs and HGH helps because they help to speed this up. You have to work hard but your recovery time is quicker and you can lift heavier weights more often. That's why you get big.

But when you see a 21yr old a 125kg of near pure muscle, benching 400Ibs in the gym, using 75kg dumbells you'd think that they would have had to have lived in a gym for their entire life let alone gone to school, university and played a little rugby inbetween.

Take a test forward in the Southern Hemisphere. No accusations here on him from me but the facts of his development are worrying.

It is a fact he only started playing in the pack in his final school year (i.e. 17-18). Previously he was a scrawny lanky winger.
Within 3 years he was showing the above statistics and his pro club were custom ordering dumbells for him because they hadn't had anyone who had ever lifted such heavy weights.

The program he has been on has been immense.

Most forwards are stronger than average humans, faster than average humans etc. That's how they beat everyday guys who just so happen to also be 6'3-6'7. Yet when people stand out in the crowd, in this particular crowd you have to wonder, you really have to wonder.

If you want to know what a big beast who I would say with a lot of confidence did it clean I would say, look at Laurence Dallaglio. Look at him as a junior. 6'4 and probably 16st even when he first played for England in 1994-5. Yes it was at the beginnings of the pro era yet it probably took him 6-7 years to put on 1st more in weight. It takes time to build up their bodies. Cutting out Macdonald's and Nando's I can't see purely being the only diff.

LT, I except that there is illegal drug taking in rugby, I just wish people would take a moment to realise what these young kids are sacrificing, I will give you an example, a few kids from where I used to help out, they were picked to represent their district, now we were all really happy for these kids, and one in particular made it into the regional academy, now this one kid, he was training with strangers, he was not allowed to go back to his original club and play with his friends all that was behind him now. I spoke to his father in the club, and he told me he was finding it hard, and he also told me, that his weekly shopping bill had gone up by a hundred quid, I looked at him in amazement.

What could have made all this happen I asked, then he told me, he had to buy all organic food, low salt this, no sugar that, he could only let his son eat certain foods, his son was not allowed to have a McDonald's or a KFC not even as a treat, he was no longer allowed to hang around the streets with his mates, and he could not even play rugby with them either, fizzy pops were out, he had a strict training programme, all this at 14 years of age. You see, if a region are going to invest in these young kids, the people taking the punt do not want any comebacks, they want as much, or more, commitment as they are being given, I saw this kid about three weeks ago, he is 18 now and he is huge, he is like a Greek god, I congratulated him on his hard work, and he was chuffed to bits that somebody actually took the time to recognise his effort, but for every one of me, there will be about ten people who will accuse him of being on illegal gear to look how he does.

Lord.  You have an opinion and are angered by the opinion of others.  But actually your opinion doesn't conflict with those other opinions too much.

Do any of us say drugs is a popped pill in a toilet cubicle and BOOM! - there you got your 6 Million Dollar all-round rugby whizz kid with the meat, skills and brains to take on the world?

Drugs don't put on pounds.  Food does yes, fat does, carbohydrate does, how the body metabolises food to form the chemicals of growth does.  And hard work - bloody hard gym and training work does the rest.  But drugs aid the hard work.  Drugs allow the body to go the extra yards.  Drugs assist.  And they are illegal....in theory.

Honest athletes do the hard work alone and get the gains they get from endeavour and sacrifice and gym work and running and strict diets - yes.  
Dishonest athletes do the hard work with a helper, and get the gains they get from endeavour, sacrfice, torturous gym work, lonely runs, strict dieting etc etc.  

Nobody is saying drug assisted athletes don't also do an honest day's hard graft to make the drugs pay for themselves. But that they are being assisted in the process of the torture, whilst others struggle on without that assistance.  And also the gains reached by drug takers will mostly always outweight the gains achieved in the same period of time by an honest athlete.

So if we're going to be sympathetic to young players under pressure to achieve gains in order to achieve their goals in the game, then yes, I'll sympathise very much.......... with the honest ones.

SecretFly wrote:Lord.  You have an opinion and are angered by the opinion of others.  But actually your opinion doesn't conflict with those other opinions too much.

Do any of us say drugs is a popped pill in a toilet cubicle and BOOM! - there you got your 6 Million Dollar all-round rugby whizz kid with the meat, skills and brains to take on the world?

Drugs don't put on pounds.  Food does yes, fat does, carbohydrate does, how the body metabolises food to form the chemicals of growth does.  And hard work - bloody hard gym and training work does the rest.  But drugs aid the hard work.  Drugs allow the body to go the extra yards.  Drugs assist.  And they are illegal....in theory.

Honest athletes do the hard work alone and get the gains they get from endeavour and sacrifice and gym work and running and strict diets - yes.  
Dishonest athletes do the hard work with a helper, and get the gains they get from endeavour, sacrfice, torturous gym work, lonely runs, strict dieting etc etc.  

Nobody is saying drug assisted athletes don't also do an honest day's hard graft to make the drugs pay for themselves.  But that they are being assisted in the process of the torture, whilst others struggle on without that assistance.  And also the gains reached by drug takers will mostly always outweight the gains achieved in the same period of time by an honest athlete.

So if we're going to be sympathetic to young players under pressure to achieve gains in order to achieve their goals in the game, then yes, I'll sympathise very much.......... with the honest ones.

Yes, I agree, let's just not tar everybody with the same brush, some of these kids are where they are from sheer hard graft and lots of sacrifices. Also, I think it should be down to the academies that nurture these kids to have full responsibility when it comes to drug abuse.

LordDowlais wrote:
Yes, I agree, let's just not tar everybody with the same brush, some of these kids are where they are from sheer hard graft and lots of sacrifices. Also, I think it should be down to the academies that nurture these kids to have full responsibility when it comes to drug abuse.

Honest athletes, working hard, aren't the target of Kimmage, of the ex-player he interviewed, of the organisations involved in unearthing drugs, of this thread.  

Why would we even need to say 'Let's not tar everyone with the same brush'.  The whole debate is that there are athletes who do and athletes who don't.  If every athlete did it, it'd be a 'fair' sport.  The whole pivot point is that not all athletes CAN be tarred with the same brush, and therefore the cheating ones get an unfair advantage.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
Yes, I agree, let's just not tar everybody with the same brush, some of these kids are where they are from sheer hard graft and lots of sacrifices. Also, I think it should be down to the academies that nurture these kids to have full responsibility when it comes to drug abuse.

Honest athletes, working hard, aren't the target of Kimmage, of the ex-player he interviewed, of the organisations involved in unearthing drugs, of this thread.  

Why would we even need to say 'Let's not tar everyone with the same brush'.  The whole debate is that there are athletes who do and athletes who don't.  If every athlete did it, it'd be a 'fair' sport.  The whole pivot point is that not all athletes CAN be tarred with the same brush, and therefore the cheating ones get an unfair advantage.

If the said player is getting an unfair advantage, then so does everything he represents, so for me, it should be the club/province/region/acadamey that should be responsable for this sort of thing, and it is up to whoever the player is representing to do the drug tests, not a one off every now and again official to finaly turn up to do it when he/she is passing.

Kimmage generaly is after the sytematic, organised cheating. the stuff that is done by teams, squads etc.

Whilst Anti-Doping protocols dictate that the individual athlete is responsible for what goes into their bodies - how many of them actually check the pill cocktails or protein mixes/shakes that get handed out at training and during games.

LordDowlais wrote:
If the said player is getting an unfair advantage, then so does everything he represents, so for me, it should be the club/province/region/acadamey that should be responsable for this sort of thing, and it is up to whoever the player is representing to do the drug tests, not a one off every now and again official to finaly turn up to do it when he/she is passing.

God no, do not let those with most to gain be responsible for testing. Talk about a cheats charter.

Testing needs to be fully organised and independent. IRB along with WADA should be responsible for pro testing. Every player in a Tier 1 test team should be tested after every test match and at least once a month outside test windows.

Other pro teams should have at least 5 random players per week tested.

Unions should then co-ordinate testing at junior and age grade levels (except for JWC which is handed back to IRB).

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
If the said player is getting an unfair advantage, then so does everything he represents, so for me, it should be the club/province/region/acadamey that should be responsable for this sort of thing, and it is up to whoever the player is representing to do the drug tests, not a one off every now and again official to finaly turn up to do it when he/she is passing.

God no, do not let those with most to gain be responsible for testing. Talk about a cheats charter.

Testing needs to be fully organised and independent. IRB along with WADA should be responsible for pro testing. Every player in a Tier 1 test team should be tested after every test match and at least once a month outside test windows.

Other pro teams should have at least 5 random players per week tested.

Unions should then co-ordinate testing at junior and age grade levels (except for JWC which is handed back to IRB).

I was thinking more along the lines of, each club/province/region/acadamey makes their players pee into a pot, once a month and they then get sent to WADA or the IRB or anybody who is independant, but it is the responsability of the employers to make their players do the tests.

LondonTiger wrote:Kimmage generaly is after the sytematic, organised cheating. the stuff that is done by teams, squads etc.

Whilst Anti-Doping protocols dictate that the individual athlete is responsible for what goes into their bodies - how many of them actually check the pill cocktails or protein mixes/shakes that get handed out at training and during games.

........................... now we're in the grey territory where notable coaches (mentioned in the article) who try to belittle the idea of a drugs issue might be better off just staying quiet. Because a notable coach who protests too much is simply a red flag to a bull. And journalists like Kimmage are those bulls who see these red flags.

Sadly there has been so much evidence of swapped samples etc in the past that independent people need to be present when samples are taken.

Now for their own sakes, employers should be organising drug testing - as we saw with Bath in the past. You would hope that is a regular thing - but should be in addition to rigourous, extensive, independent testing.

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
If the said player is getting an unfair advantage, then so does everything he represents, so for me, it should be the club/province/region/acadamey that should be responsable for this sort of thing, and it is up to whoever the player is representing to do the drug tests, not a one off every now and again official to finaly turn up to do it when he/she is passing.

God no, do not let those with most to gain be responsible for testing. Talk about a cheats charter.

Testing needs to be fully organised and independent. IRB along with WADA should be responsible for pro testing. Every player in a Tier 1 test team should be tested after every test match and at least once a month outside test windows.

Other pro teams should have at least 5 random players per week tested.

Unions should then co-ordinate testing at junior and age grade levels (except for JWC which is handed back to IRB).

I was thinking more along the lines of, each club/province/region/acadamey makes their players pee into a pot, once a month and they then get sent to WADA or the IRB or anybody who is independant, but it is the responsability of the employers to make their players do the tests.

Actually, over the course of a few seasons, such a policy might have dramatic effects on League placements in all Leagues, as the stuff that might allegedly get added to the protein drinks of the players might be.............. gradually eased back on by the management. The irony of giving teams the task of testing their own players for the stuff they might have alledgedly been adding to their players diets on purpose!  How bizarre that alleged situation might allegedly be  

But I think it's much more serious than potions added to protein shakes though - if it's happening at all, then it's stuff that the players would have to cooperate with if it was a concerted  team cheat or that individual players would do on their own in secret if it was an individual decision.

Didn't the original article, the only journalist who ever stood up to Armstrong state that the biggest problem in sport today is HGH? That there is no viable test?

Now tell me if there was no test, no risk of getting caught.... what are the chances we WON'T see chaps doing it.

Look at the 100metres?

Can nutrition really have improved that much in 20 years? Those guys were pro's their entire careers.

20 years ago only 3 men had dropped below 9.90 seconds. Now we have a number of guys dropping 0.15-0.20 seconds down.... even when removing Usain Bolt.

Its the same for rugby.

For me... I just find it difficult to believe that youngsters, not seasoned 28yr olds, but youngsters are coming in with figures where they can bench 400Ibs and at the same time play a fitness based sport like rugby at the same time. When kids are doing in 1-2 years what most seasoned pro's/internationals take 10 years to achieve then my mind starts to wonder.

When kids are doing in 1-2 years wrote:

Thats the thing though, not all of them are, I agree if they are doing this then questions should be asked, but most of these kids are on strict diets and training programmes from the age of 14yrs old and upwards, ok it gets more grueling the older you get, but at 14-16yrs of age they get the foundations in place to push on, and by the time they are 19-20 they are in a position to become seasoned athletes, if it were young 15 or 16 year olds being like this, then it should be questioned, but for me, I have seen first hand how these kids get to where they are, without taking illegal drugs.

WADA can and do test for HGH AFAIK but, since it is a naturally occuring substance with fluctuating levels in any individual dependant on many factors they have to be more inventive than just testing for its presence or level.

LordDowlais wrote:

Thats the thing though, not all of them are, I agree if they are doing this then questions should be asked, but most of these kids are on strict diets and training programmes from the age of 14yrs old and upwards, ok it gets more grueling the older you get, but at 14-16yrs of age they get the foundations in place to push on, and by the time they are 19-20 they are in a position to become seasoned athletes, if it were young 15 or 16 year olds being like this, then it should be questioned, but for me, I have seen first hand how these kids get to where they are, without taking illegal drugs.

LD,

tell me what you think of Eben Etzebeth. The guy is a monster. For someone so tall, with such big arms the guy could bench 400Ibs aged 21. He has no fat on him, uses custom made dumbells weighing in at 75kgs.

But he never hit the gym until his matric year. He was a scrawny winger... which is why he never played SA age grade. He was a bok within 2 years.

Is that normal... and remember for those 1.5years he was in full time education... he wasn't a 24hr a day gym monkey with nothing better to do.

All I'm saying is that he development has been REMARKABLE.... absolutely remarkable.

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Thats the thing though, not all of them are, I agree if they are doing this then questions should be asked, but most of these kids are on strict diets and training programmes from the age of 14yrs old and upwards, ok it gets more grueling the older you get, but at 14-16yrs of age they get the foundations in place to push on, and by the time they are 19-20 they are in a position to become seasoned athletes, if it were young 15 or 16 year olds being like this, then it should be questioned, but for me, I have seen first hand how these kids get to where they are, without taking illegal drugs.

LD,

tell me what you think of Eben Etzebeth. The guy is a monster. For someone so tall, with such big arms the guy could bench 400Ibs aged 21. He has no fat on him, uses custom made dumbells weighing in at 75kgs.

But he never hit the gym until his matric year. He was a scrawny winger... which is why he never played SA age grade. He was a bok within 2 years.

Is that normal... and remember for those 1.5years he was in full time education... he wasn't a 24hr a day gym monkey with nothing better to do.

All I'm saying is that he development has been REMARKABLE.... absolutely remarkable.

I agree and cases like that should perhaps be looked at, but for another example, take a look at George North, playing for Wales at 19yrs of age, already physicaly built like an athlete, was he taking drugs ? No, he was nertured from a young age and commited himself to rugby, the same with the likes of Sam Warburton, Talupe Faletua, John Davies ect.

LordDowlais wrote:

Thats the thing though, not all of them are, I agree if they are doing this then questions should be asked, but most of these kids are on strict diets and training programmes from the age of 14yrs old and upwards, ok it gets more grueling the older you get, but at 14-16yrs of age they get the foundations in place to push on, and by the time they are 19-20 they are in a position to become seasoned athletes, if it were young 15 or 16 year olds being like this, then it should be questioned, but for me, I have seen first hand how these kids get to where they are, without taking illegal drugs.

In your opinion, Lord. You can't be certain which of these kids are dabbling and which aren't. You don't test, you don't expect, you don't question and you don't suspect.

That's all fine - not your job to question the integrity of players without evidence. But then that is exactly what all cheats have said in the past. First the denials, then the idea that it might be prevalent everywhere in the sport (offsetting personal guilt), then more denials, then the truth.

I'm not for a second talking about the players you've dealt with, Lord but I am taking you as a generalised example. You cannot (a coach or even family member cannot) know the truth of your statement when you claim that these kids didn't take drugs.... or that some of them didn't.
Only evidence of guilt will ever uncover guilt - it will take players who have seen things happen, who are prepared to testify that they have seen things happen and who then with the drugs testing board can establish more evidence that things happened that the truth will begin to come out.

But again, you bring up the innocent when nobody is talking about the innocent. You can't have a debate on the guilty by continuously saying; "Forget the guilty, it's the innocents who might be dragged into the debate that worries me." The guilty stand in the way of your innocents. The innocents need someone to expose the guilty so that the sport is clearly directed at honest young players who come up honestly through the ranks.

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Thats the thing though, not all of them are, I agree if they are doing this then questions should be asked, but most of these kids are on strict diets and training programmes from the age of 14yrs old and upwards, ok it gets more grueling the older you get, but at 14-16yrs of age they get the foundations in place to push on, and by the time they are 19-20 they are in a position to become seasoned athletes, if it were young 15 or 16 year olds being like this, then it should be questioned, but for me, I have seen first hand how these kids get to where they are, without taking illegal drugs.

LD,

tell me what you think of Eben Etzebeth. The guy is a monster. For someone so tall, with such big arms the guy could bench 400Ibs aged 21. He has no fat on him, uses custom made dumbells weighing in at 75kgs.

But he never hit the gym until his matric year. He was a scrawny winger... which is why he never played SA age grade. He was a bok within 2 years.

Is that normal... and remember for those 1.5years he was in full time education... he wasn't a 24hr a day gym monkey with nothing better to do.

All I'm saying is that he development has been REMARKABLE.... absolutely remarkable.

I agree and cases like that should perhaps be looked at, but for another example, take a look at George North, playing for Wales at 19yrs of age, already physicaly built like an athlete, was he taking drugs ? No, he was nertured from a young age and commited himself to rugby, the same with the likes of Sam Warburton, Talupe Faletua, John Davies ect.

Those guys were never freaks though. North was big, but I've seen bigger at that age. Eben, his strength is unbelievable though. Perhaps the strongest bok of all time... that's not a exaggeration... and he was aged 21. The best lifters are generally short and stocky.. this guy is 6'9 yet he is perhaps within the top 10 lifters in world rugby today. He lifts heavier dumbells then anyone in SA rugby... He started weight training aged 17-18.

James Haskell for instance is another serious lifter but he has been training for 10 years to get to that level.

Eben does come from a huge family mind... used to be known as the Etzebeth brothers. Literally would tear the town limb from limb apparently. Very big and strong chaps. Perhaps it was all natural. He wasn't a farm boy. He's from my wife's neighbourhood in Cape Town. He's a suburbs boy.

SF, I think you are getting where I am coming from all wrong, what I am saying is, I can understand why people will think that certain players are taking illegal substances to get to where they are, and in the case stated above about Eben Etzebeth there is clearly a scenario to be investigated, but what I am trying to point out is, that I have witnessed young players getting into amazing shape, and doing it the legal way, the inroads that science has made in this field is amazing and seeing these youngsters getting to where they are and the sacrifices they make to get there all in the name of rugby should be commended, these young players do not get to where they are over one or two years, they give five to six years of complete focus to it, mostly losing out on a lot of fun with their mates in the process, but with dietitians and commitment to training they build themselves up to elite athletes by the time they are 21yrs old, there are exceptions but that does not mean they are cheating.

I am not saying to forget the guilty, what I am saying is, lets educate ourselves first and understand why we have such athletes before we start throwing guilty verdicts around.

Personally I'm not keen to say he is on something... I think he's been very well managed by WP but his growth in 2 years is just quite fast that's all.

fa0019 wrote:Personally I'm not keen to say he is on something... I think he's been very well managed by WP but his growth in 2 years is just quite fast that's all.

I'm with you on that one, if he is the animal you are saying he is, I'd also be more inclined to say what a pillar of the community he is as well, nice chap him, that Eben Eztabeth.

I don't care how the innocent get to be big, Lord.  I only care about how the guilty do so.  

I can't state the guilt of any current player anymore - anymore! - than I can state the innocence of any current player.  

That's the problem.  We have a topic that everyone in all honesty knows is an issue in certain areas of our game - it's practically proven when you read the judgements refered to Kimmage's article.  We have the topic but nobody has the right to throw accusations at specific players.  So we must specualte in the general.

But there are those out there - rugby administrators, doctors, chemists, players, ex-players, coaches, ex-coaches, TV pundits, journalists who have the tools and the knowledge to unearth the truth.

By contantly getting back to the idea that we should appreciate that boys can get big naturally is, in my opinion, evading the issue that those boys are not the ones anyone wants to hound.  The guilty are the guilty.  The innocent and the innocent.

Your angle is like saying we have a man up for murder in court.  Now he's innocent until proven guilty of course, but that doesn't stop him being arrested and charged and a court case going ahead with evidence shown to prove guilt or innocence.
You seem to be saying "Hold on guys, that man might be innocent and he might be guilty, but that's no reason to suspect my neighbour who is honest and good and wouldn't harm anyone"

True - but your neighbour isn't in court and nobody is talking about him.

fa0019 wrote:Eben does come from a huge family mind... used to be known as the Etzebeth brothers. Literally would tear the town limb from limb apparently. Very big and strong chaps. Perhaps it was all natural. He wasn't a farm boy. He's from my wife's neighbourhood in Cape Town. He's a suburbs boy.

Really? What exactly are the town's limbs?

As for freaks and what not, we have no idea who is doing or has done what. Proving a negative is very difficult (pretty much impossible unless it's mutually exclusive from a positive that can be proved). What you can do is sort the system out so it's highly unlikely that anyone is or has done illegal development.

SecretFly wrote:I don't care how the innocent get to be big, Lord.  I only care about how the guilty do so.  

I can't state the guilt of any current player anymore - anymore! - than I can state the innocence of any current player.  

That's the problem.  We have a topic that everyone in all honesty knows is an issue in certain areas of our game - it's practically proven when you read the judgements refered to Kimmage's article.  We have the topic but nobody has the right to throw accusations at specific players.  So we must specualte in the general.

But there are those out there - rugby administrators, doctors, chemists, players, ex-players, coaches, ex-coaches, TV pundits, journalists who have the tools and the knowledge to unearth the truth.

By contantly getting back to the idea that we should appreciate that boys can get big naturally is, in my opinion, evading the issue that those boys are not the ones anyone wants to hound.  The guilty are the guilty.  The innocent and the innocent.

Your angle is like saying we have a man up for murder in court.  Now he's innocent until proven guilty of course, but that doesn't stop him being arrested and charged and a court case going ahead with evidence shown to prove guilt or innocence.
You seem to be saying "Hold on guys, that man might be innocent and he might be guilty, but that's no reason to suspect my neighbour who is honest and good and wouldn't harm anyone"

True - but your neighbour isn't in court and nobody is talking about him.

Ah see, now you are doing what you are accusing me of, but you just have the guilty's and inocent's the other way around. All I am saying is, just because a kid of 19-20yrs of age is playing rugby and he is built like a Greek god, it does not mean he is on the gear.

I'm not talking about that KID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SecretFly wrote:I'm not talking about that KID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!