If Abraham had stayed at Middleweight

I know he had issues making 160, but I think we forget how beastly Abraham was at 160.

Chavez jr.
Martinez
Golovkin
Pirog
Geale
Quillin
Sturm
Barker
Macklin
Lee

There were many big fights he could have had. So, if AA had stayed at 160 how would he have faired? AA v Golovkin would have been awesome. AA is so durable and both were/are huge hitters at 160.

Would have beaten a few on that list but a skillful boxer would a good gas tank would of handled him pretty easy.

I'm a big AA fan but his fights against Ward and Froch should how short he was of their level.

Re: the Froch fights I told my mates it would be war and potential FOTY and is was a complete shutout!

Everybody thought AA would be better against Froch. Remember how well he came on versus Dirrell (after being thoroughly outboxed early, I admit); shocking to see his fall from grace in the Froch fight.

I think AA v Chavez would have been a good fight. Both taking it in turns to T off against one another. AA with hands up eating Chavez punches and then firing back with his own power loads.

Good article Sean, Middleweight is one of my specialities as it's always been a weightclass of interest for me. Abraham was a great Middleweight who people like Sturm didn't want to touch whilst at the top of his game. After that war with Miranda people realised just how TOUGH Abraham was. The guy was headbutted 3 or 4 times, broken jaw (which is excrutiating!) and lasted 12 rounds!

I often think how Abraham would have faired against others (especially Pavlik at his "prime"). I personally think that Abraham would have been beaten should they had ever had met, Pavliks jab-straight and pressure would have been a little too much for an Abraham who was very inactive for the first 4 or 5 rounds.

I also think Paul Williams would have given him hell. Martinez would have beaten him without doubt (providing he stayed on the outside all night long, especially in the closing rounds).

But when you include Macklin, Lee, Murray and Barker in the mix you have some interesting fights.

Macklin would be a toe-to-toe fight of attrition which Abraham would likely come out on top - though Abraham REALLY doesn't like the body shots (every time he shops one he looks to the ref to complain) and Macklin loves to dish these out. Saying that, Abraham has a wicked counter hook in both hands and Macklin loves to leave himself open when he throws to the body...

I think he would beat everyone on that list (not easily!) but would beat them. Apart from Golovkin who is one of the most intense and exciting guys out there at the moment. Quillin? I would be on the fence with as Abraham struggles against rangy quick fighters, but Quillin looks a little out of sorts when under intense pressure - but that would have made a cracking fight.

Thanks Schoolproject! I agree that Williams would have been a nightmare for AA. His workrate would have had AA guarding himself all night. Martinez would out class him, too. I think AA would have knocked MAcklin out. Hit too hard at 160 and Macklin engages and tends to gas late. AA v Quillin would have been good, too

AA v pavlik would have been immense. They missed the boat on that one

Seanusarrilius wrote:Thanks Schoolproject! I agree that Williams would have been a nightmare for AA. His workrate would have had AA guarding himself all night. Martinez would out class him, too. I think AA would have knocked MAcklin out. Hit too hard at 160 and Macklin engages and tends to gas late. AA v Quillin would have been good, too

AA v pavlik would have been immense. They missed the boat on that one

Fo'Sho

I'm not sure "who ducked who" with the Pavlik/AA fight. But I remember in the build up to the Super 6 Abraham saying he basically had no other option to move to Super Middle because no one would fight him after the Miranda fight. Whilst Pavlik was bottom feeding from interim holders and EBU champs. Massive shame as Pavlik would have had a better legacy at Middle (especially if the Williams fight came to something).

I would have been scared of Abraham after that Miranda fight though!

I would start Martinez, Chavez and Golovkin as favourite over Abraham and think he beats the rest. I thought Abraham was awful against Froch. Really limited. Credit to Froch for a shut out performance but whatever Frochs strengths are, being elusive isn’t one of them. And the fact Abraham could really do anything against him I thought was very poor. Even an old Glen Johnson didn’t have any trouble catching Froch with good shots that Abraham couldn’t get off behind his earmuff style. Froch made him look like a plodder so that was a bit of a concern.

I think Chavez is too big for him and Abraham too reliant on being the stronger bully in fights to win against a huge durable guy like Chavez who can do damage in close. Martinez too talented, although he has a habit of getting caught himself and adopting a riskier approach which could get him in trouble if Abraham lands. Golovkin looks good so far but still somewhat untested. Based on his potential I think I would favour him over Abraham. The others I don’t think have the requisite ability/slickness to make the most of Abrahams weaknesses or are too fond of exchanging. Cant see Macklin or Sturm for instance prevailing the way they stand in front of opponents at times.

Well we have to put a prime version of him against these guys as he couldn't make 160 when these guys were about so its hard to gauge

Martinez should beat him, but his willingness to engage like he did vs Williams/Chavez/Pavlik etc wouldn't be smart move to make when Abraham could pull the trigger like he could. Marinez is quic enough and good enough to rack up the points and withstand any late rally from AA

I think he beats Chavez jr but as someone said if he can't bully Chavez then it would be tight. Chavez uses his physical size to bully his opponents and relies on his punch resistance. If e wades in and tries to fight fire with fire he could get stopped by Abraham who will be the biggest puncher and the toughest he's fought. Rubio, Zbik, Lee, Manfredo all got to him and none of those hit too hard and Martinez buzzed him in the 4th so he isn't indestructible whereas Abraham was super tough and Chavez can't hurt him

Quillin hits hard and is a good boxer but his stamina didnt look all that and AA could he too him late.

Golovkin is like a slightly more fluid version of AA but even with his power I doubt he can stop AA whereas I've yet to see if he can take the same king of punishment AA can

Sturm is too upright and easy to hit so Abraham should win a decision

Macklin and barker would be game but not enough to suggest they could beat Abraham

I quite rated Abraham at 160 and I don't think the Froch debacle, even though it was at Super-Middle, was an accurate gauge of his abilities. Froch, in retrospect, may well have always beaten him in any case but I do think that Abraham had a shocking off night and that there was something seriously amiss with him in that bout - it was as if he didn't actually want to be there.

Anyway, as a Middleweight there was plenty to applaud in Abraham's arsenal; very strong up close, an excellent work rate, massive knockout power and some good whiskers, too. If he'd have got his fight against Pavlik after Hopkins had his way with him then I'd have backed him to unify the division.

Not many top class names at Middleweight who wanted the fight between 2005 and 2009 when 'King Arthur' was there however, so naturally when the Super Six contest up at 168 lb came, he jumped at the chance and he should be commended for that. Lest we forget, he started off that tournament by handing Taylor the most comprehensive defeat of his career, and there were whispers that he'd been jobbed against Dirrell too, where it looked as if he was in with a shout of getting the late, late stoppage.

Anyway, of today's Middleweights I think Abraham emerges as a solid number three from the crop. Martinez too cute and Golovik, as WHU says, is Abraham with a bit more fluidity, class and deft touches, so I'd back him as well.

But I can see Abraham beating Chavez Jr. The Armenian-German is strong enough to take Chavez's best and throws too many punches for the Mexican to nick a decision. Chavez isn't all that when it comes to keeping people off him, either.

Sturm doesn't throw enough or have the power to either outscore or outmuscle Abraham either, Quillin is still largely untested at world level so Abraham has the edge there for me as well, and Macklin might just be a bit too brave for his own good, I fear, getting stopped late on as he almost was against Sturm.

Abraham is not much different to Bute if you ask me. looked solid fighting at home against contenders but the first time he stepped up to world class his vulnerabilities started to show. and i mean against Taylor! if Taylor had trained better and actually looked like he wanted to be there, i think he could have won a shut out. he showed in the early rounds that if you move backwards Abraham will punch whilst out of reach and stop there. Abrahams movement is truly awful for a top fighter. I put a massive bet on Dirrell to beat him, i just couldnt see how Abraham would catch him. I admit it got nervy towards the end of the fight, but Dirrell proved to the rest of the super 6 what they had probably spotted against Taylor and just how to beat Abraham. Abraham also showed his mental weakness during the Dirrell fight, after which Froch took him to school.

Anyone who fights Abraham will have to respect the guys immense punching power, but if they have good movement and good discipline i would expect them to beat him. Froch had to stay switched on to the very end. he got careless for a second in round 12 and Abraham quickly reminded him of the danger.

Abraham would almost certainly stop Macklin, buty i would expect the more disciplined Barker to beat him.

88Chris05 wrote:I quite rated Abraham at 160 and I don't think the Froch debacle, even though it was at Super-Middle, was an accurate gauge of his abilities. Froch, in retrospect, may well have always beaten him in any case but I do think that Abraham had a shocking off night and that there was something seriously amiss with him in that bout - it was as if he didn't actually want to be there.

Anyway, as a Middleweight there was plenty to applaud in Abraham's arsenal; very strong up close, an excellent work rate, massive knockout power and some good whiskers, too. If he'd have got his fight against Pavlik after Hopkins had his way with him then I'd have backed him to unify the division.

Not many top class names at Middleweight who wanted the fight between 2005 and 2009 when 'King Arthur' was there however, so naturally when the Super Six contest up at 168 lb came, he jumped at the chance and he should be commended for that. Lest we forget, he started off that tournament by handing Taylor the most comprehensive defeat of his career, and there were whispers that he'd been jobbed against Dirrell too, where it looked as if he was in with a shout of getting the late, late stoppage.

Anyway, of today's Middleweights I think Abraham emerges as a solid number three from the crop. Martinez too cute and Golovik, as WHU says, is Abraham with a bit more fluidity, class and deft touches, so I'd back him as well.

But I can see Abraham beating Chavez Jr. The Armenian-German is strong enough to take Chavez's best and throws too many punches for the Mexican to nick a decision. Chavez isn't all that when it comes to keeping people off him, either.

Sturm doesn't throw enough or have the power to either outscore or outmuscle Abraham either, Quillin is still largely untested at world level so Abraham has the edge there for me as well, and Macklin might just be a bit too brave for his own good, I fear, getting stopped late on as he almost was against Sturm.

I agree with you assessment with AA v Froch. He was nowhere that night in a way I haven't seen with him since.At 160 he was a very hard hitter, and I think he would have stopped Dirrell late on had that gone the distance.

i dont think he was gonna stop Dirrell at all. he was still missing wildly for the most part and showed his frustrations with the cheap shot. a lot is made of dirrells mental weakness that night, but Abraham took the easy way out just as much as Dirrell. he was so frustrated at being outboxed he was happy to hit Dirrell any way he could, including while he was on his knees

Its not just the Froch fight though that Abraham looked poor in. Its practically every big fight above MW where the level of competition he faced was a step up from what he was used to during his MW reign.

Most of the names on the list above are not in the same class as Froch/Ward so I think hes certainly capable of beating them. A few like Sturm and Macklin would be tailor made for him I think. But Martinez is an elite fighter that I think would be too awkward for Abrahams pretty limited approach unless he got careless. I still think Chavez is too big for Abraham and is able to bully him up close although his durability would be tested. Seems to be good so far though and he is enormous at the weight.

Lance wrote:i dont think he was gonna stop Dirrell at all. he was still missing wildly for the most part and showed his frustrations with the cheap shot. a lot is made of dirrells mental weakness that night, but Abraham took the easy way out just as much as Dirrell. he was so frustrated at being outboxed he was happy to hit Dirrell any way he could, including while he was on his knees

He dropped Dirrell in that fight and it was wrongly ruled a slip.

I think he beats everyone with the possible exception of Martinez but if he has him hurt as Chavez did then it's fight over.

I'm going to say something controversial here...

I think the version of Chavez Jr who fought against Rubio on (even the Martinez fight) would possibly beat Abraham if he stays active.

A fighter like Abraham would be poor against a guy whos taller than him and can swarm him. Plus (as I said earlier) his distaste to body shots would show when Chavez Jr tags him there. Abrahams clam like defense would only help for so long against a fairly active Chavez who is fairly active.

GGG and Abraham - The more I think about this one, the more I think GGG would do a serious job on Abraham. Golovkin presses forward behind a STRONG jab can move well front and back foot and closes space superbly... Abrahams jab can be decent but Golovkin is out of range before anyone can throw back... nullifying Abrahams counters easily. The interesting thing about a fight between these guys is the fact that Golovkin has never been Knocked Down, EVER (in nearly 400 fights) and Abraham has only been Knocked Down at Super Middle (half off balance and not hurt).

That would be a mouth watering fight... 2008 version of Abraham V Golovkin.

Lance wrote:i dont think he was gonna stop Dirrell at all. he was still missing wildly for the most part and showed his frustrations with the cheap shot. a lot is made of dirrells mental weakness that night, but Abraham took the easy way out just as much as Dirrell. he was so frustrated at being outboxed he was happy to hit Dirrell any way he could, including while he was on his knees

+1

I think it's AA who has a heart problem. Bottled it against Dirrell, Froch and Ward. Conceded defeat rather than take the necessary risks to win.

Good fighter at 160 but well schooled and bigger boxers would always give him problems. Unless he was fighting at home and allowed to break the odd rule during the fight he may well find he would come up short against a lot of the main fighters out there now.

It's important to realise that as well being bigger are better boxers than anyone at middleweight with the exception of Martinez.

Quilin would win comfortably against Abraham. seems people like to assume every good american boxer coming up the rankings is only highly rated because they are american. Quilin is quality and would be more than a match for Golovkin or Abraham.

I don't think Abraham lacks heart. Afterall, he continued to fight Miranda with a broken jaw.

His power gives him a chance against anyone but his extremley limited skillset and poor engine gives the majority of the names on that list a decent shout at beating him.
I remember watching his fight against Lajuan Simon (which might have been his last at MW) and he looked absolutely woeful.
Martinez and GG would make him look silly.

Quillin looked awfully lacklustre against an ancient Winky Wright and untill the knockdown the same could be said of hi against McEwan. He beat N'Dam but of the 12 rounds you could easily have given him 4 or fewer of the rounds but because of the knockdowns that point is avoided. He let his foot off the gas an awful lot and looked uncomfortable for large amounts of that fight.

Not saying he's bad I'm just saying that he might not be as good as the Americans hope he can be and Abraham was never comprehensively outboxed by a middleweight

I've not seen enough of Golovkin or Pirog to really judge them here so I'll leave them out.

For my money Abraham is a favourite against all the rest apart from Martinez who if he boxes smart would win a wide decision. I get the feeling that Abraham stops the rest of these guys more often than not unless they box too negatively and wish to lose on points. Chavez has a good chin and weighs about 185lbs on fight night but he is there to be hit and pretty much anything Abraham landed on at middle weight folded so I'd back Abraham by stoppage. You know a guy carries genuine one punch knockout power when someone as granite chinned as Froch spends most of the night boxing in reverse gear instead of choosing to engage.

Bit of a boring topic this one Seanus... bromance

Has to be said that Froch boxed so well against Abraham because despite having a top class chin he seemed to acknowledge that he could be knocked out at any time, says it all about the power that he does possess.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Has to be said that Froch boxed so well against Abraham because despite having a top class chin he seemed to acknowledge that he could be knocked out at any time, says it all about the power that he does possess.

Exactly right. Didn't think Froch could do it myself but he was brilliant that night even if Abraham was a little off himself.