v2 G.O.A.T Round 2 Match 8

First topic message reminder :

Yesterday’s first match up was one of the most routine victories we’ve seen with Jesse Owen defeating Ayrton Senna with ease to cruise into the last 16.

Joining Owen in round 2 is Borg who defeated both Gareth Edwards and the wildcard LeBron James who both leave the tournament at this stage

Today's first match up will see Shane Warne take on Sir Steve Redgrave

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport

Below are the previous round 1 articles written by forum members

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Steve Redgrave- Rowing- Championed by ChequeredJersey

One of the key features, in my opinion, for the GOAT in all sports is that a candidate must transcend his sport and attain significance and influence in the lives of people beyond the hard-core sporting fan-base. They should also attain dominance within their own sport. Many sportsmen (this term includes women too) are talented, some enough that they stand out above their peers. Far fewer stand out across the eras of a sport. Of these, even fewer are household names, celebrities or national icons especially in the ‘less popular sports’. Other sportsmen garner fame and celebrity status, but few of these can say they achieved unique accomplishments for sporting reasons. Those that fit into both categories and also manage to be uniquely great across a type of sport, not merely their own specialty, are incredibly rare. Sir Steven Geoffrey Redgrave, CBE, deputy lieutenant, is one of these. I will endeavour to show how in this article. Sorry that it’s a bit long, I got carried away…

If you ask a member of the British public to name an Olympian, chances are Redgrave will be near the top of the list. If you ask them to name a rower, I’d be amazed if he weren’t. He remains the only person to win 5 Gold Olympic Medals in 5 consecutive games in an endurance sport (as well as a solitary Bronze) and he adds 9 Gold, 2 Silver and 1 Bronze World Championship Medals from 1986-99 to that tally. He won his first Gold at age 22 and his last at 38, 16 years of Olympic domination in a sport that is based on physical strength and fitness, attributes that for a man peak in one’s mid-twenties. During the majority of that time, Redgrave’s crews were expected to win every race they entered and in a sport that has a number of strong competitive nations and is subject to conditions and how the crew clicks and other variables they nearly did win every race for nearly 20 years.

Non-internationally, he won different categories at Henley Royal Regatta, the premier sprint racing rowing race in the world, 21 times, the last one at age 39. These events ranged from sweep (one bladed) to scull (two oars) and from singles on his own to coxed 4s with a number of partners, as were his Olympic medals. The only constant was Redgrave. He also represented England in the 1986 Commonwealth games where he won 3 Golds in different races. I don’t know how many times he won the premier Head (long distance) racing event in the world, the Head of the River Race on the
Thames, but he certainly did win it with Leander VIII and IV several times as well as his sprint victories listed here.

Most rowers specialise at rowing on one side of the boat – Bowside (starboard, or the right side of the boat from the cox’ point of view) or Strokeside (port). As well as sculling with 2 oars, Redgrave rowed both Bow and Strokeside and won Olympic Gold on both sides, testament to his technical proficiency (something very underappreciated by lay people regarding rowing) not just his strength. He was also renowned as a tactician and made the calls in his coxless crews and knew exactly when to wait and when to push another crew.

The only thing missing from his portfolio is a Boat Race victory, due to ineligibility.
He was also World indoor rowing champion (on a ergometric rowing machine) in 1990 and was British bobsleighing Champion and has run several London Marathons for charity. He did all of this with Ulcerative Colitis and Diabetes Mellitus Type 1, both chronic and debilitating diseases with severe health effects, both worse under the stress of severe physical exertion which rowing training entails more than most existent activities.

These are his considerable achievements within sport. Related to these, he has been BBC Sports Personality of the Year, won a Knighthood and a CBE from the Queen, a special pin from the Olympic Committee for winning 5 Golds in consecutive Games, a Thomas Keller Medal from the International Rowing Federation for his Outstanding International Career, has Carried the Olympic Torch in the Olympic Stadium at 2012 London, been the UK’s Olympic Flag bearer in 1992 and ’96, won Celebrity Gladiators, a BBC Sports Lifetime Achievement Award. He has set up rowing academies in India, raised millions of pounds for Charity, is an ambassador for Fairtrade and Founder and President of the Steve Redgrave Trust, and the vice-president of Diabetes UK and involved in many other charities. He is now Sports Legacy Champion and a Member of Sports Relief’s Steering Committee. The President of British Rowing, a Steward of Henley Royal Regatta and Vice President of the British Olympic Association and now a decade after his retirement is still the face of Rowing.

Since his retirement he has done so much for Sport and charity. He is a British legend who represents his country now as an ambassador. He epitomises determination, pushing oneself beyond the limit and the honour of representing one’s country. Inside his sport he has been a master and a mentor and outside of it a Champion for all the qualities we get from playing sport and all the emotion we suffer through spectating it. He is surely the inspiration for so many rowers, so many British sportspeople across every sport. He has touched many lives through the greatest of his achievements, people crying with him and for him. For all this, I propose Sir Steve Redgrave as the GOAT.

IMO, and I suspect you will disagree with me Diggers, Redgrave has transcended his sport because he has used his ability to compete with the very best (and beat them all) with a very serious chronic illness (or 2) to gain recognition for the illness and set up his own successful charity, he has also inspired Britons who have no interest in his sport or sport at all- hence the knighthood and the fact that everytime we have selected a sportsman for a large honour he seems to be a frontrunner. He was our representative this Olympics despite retiring over a decade ago. This is just Britain, but even today we are a not insignificant country by any criteria and also why should I ignore the fact that I am British? Subjectivity is always going to come into this competition because there is no objective way to assess the candidates- we are all merely giving our opinions and seeing where they overlap and saying that we don't know Olympic candidates from other countries with more medals than Redgrave is irrelevant because

A) the point with Redgrave is how hard getting those medals in his sport was over such a long period of time was in a sport which is inherently harder te older you get

B) they aren't in the list and aren't being compared to Redgrave

C) We can't make assumptions over what people from the countries of these sportspeople would vote for. It's frankly patronising actually. We can't take into account what any other person might have heard of or voted for because then you are automatically making complete guesses.

Anyway back to my original point: Redgrave, I know, has inspired people and helped people though his sport and sporting acheivements and has been a source of pride. I can't see any evidence that Warne has positively influenced people in this way. In fact, if anything he has brought shame to his sport

According to Sport UK, about 200,000 people play cricket in the UK, compared with about 50,000 for rowing. That's not such a big difference, given that swimming can claim 3m and football, athletics and cycling around 2m each.

Rowing also has a number of constraints on participation that result from the type of sport it is. You need to be within reach of a river, you need expensive equipment, it's no good unless the rest of your crew turn up at the same time... rowing demands a far bigger commitment than cricket.

But as I've said before, "my sport's bigger than your sport" is a pretty daft criterion for assessing greatness.

Poorfour wrote:According to Sport UK, about 200,000 people play cricket in the UK, compared with about 50,000 for rowing. That's not such a big difference, given that swimming can claim 3m and football, athletics and cycling around 2m each.

Rowing also has a number of constraints on participation that result from the type of sport it is. You need to be within reach of a river, you need expensive equipment, it's no good unless the rest of your crew turn up at the same time... rowing demands a far bigger commitment than cricket.

But as I've said before, "my sport's bigger than your sport" is a pretty daft criterion for assessing greatness.

thats the uk though..

We are massive in both sports..

The dufference is in india- there are millions playing cricket there yet compare that to rowers!!

Those UK stats arnt relevant pal.. This is only about global levels

Excellent posts by both CK and Poorfour.

I'd also add we can probably assume that if someone like Redgrave turned his hand to a mass participation sport he'd have had the qualities to excel at it. Look at someone like Derek Redmond who held the British 400m record, went on to play basketball for GB then played Rugby to a high level.

Redgrave could well be the best marathon runner we never had for example.

Oh and poor add the participation levels of SA to uks figures and all

Redgrave did excel at another sport- bobsleigh as it happens

That's excellent CJ - I did not know about that. Proves the point perfectly, the qualities that made him a great rower can be applied to other sports.

Maybe not marathon running

He had ran marathons but yes, he's probably a bit big to run them especially quickly!

Why is the global level of participation relevant suddenly the be-all and end-all? I've yet to see an argument that goes beyond "I don't really watch this sport, so I've voted for the other guy".

There is a coherent argument that goes the other way: Redgrave competed in a relatively small sport that barely gets any media coverage, and yet achieved so much that he's recognised widely outside that sport. Warne competes in a sport that over 1 billion people watch almost constantly (seriously - India has about 11 channels devoted 24 hours a day to cricket) and yet isn't even a clear contender for the greatest in his own sport (Tendulkar, I suspect, would be a far more popular choice with the vast majority of the cricket-watching public).

ChequeredJersey wrote:He had ran marathons but yes, he's probably a bit big to run them especially quickly!

Definitely. Couldn't see him cracking 2hrs 30, even in his pomp.

I am sure he would have been an exeptional rugby player as well.

BUt imagine all the rugby lads rowed instead off playing rugby!

just imagine......

Marathon wasn't the greatest example I will admit!

Poorfour wrote:Why is the global level of participation relevant suddenly the be-all and end-all? I've yet to see an argument that goes beyond "I don't really watch this sport, so I've voted for the other guy".

There is a coherent argument that goes the other way: Redgrave competed in a relatively small sport that barely gets any media coverage, and yet achieved so much that he's recognised widely outside that sport. Warne competes in a sport that over 1 billion people watch almost constantly (seriously - India has about 11 channels devoted 24 hours a day to cricket) and yet isn't even a clear contender for the greatest in his own sport (Tendulkar, I suspect, would be a far more popular choice with the vast majority of the cricket-watching public).

If the Indian version of V2 copy us, then I expect Sachin would be the GOAT.

Most top batsmen could well have made top or pro Golfers as well. Ponting was a brilliant golfer by all accounts.

Some would be very good, others would be terrible on the water. There is a fair amount of technique (and more importantly timing) involved and the type of exhaustion and pain you have to deal with is very different, to the extent that I now find rugby matches 100 times harder if I've mostly been rowing recently and rowing 100x in the opposite situation

Stella wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:He had ran marathons but yes, he's probably a bit big to run them especially quickly!

Definitely. Couldn't see him cracking 2hrs 30, even in his pomp.

My sister ran the London Marathon the same year as him and overtook him... I think he finished in about 4 hours. She said he didn't seem to be under any stress in cardio terms, but his knees and feet were clearly killing him.

On the sillier side of the multi-sports thing, Redgrave did take part in Celebrity Gladiators one year. While not proper sport, the events were designed to test a range of skills and abilities. He and Pinsent were the finalists.

Yes, I can imagine him being good at Gladiators.

Is the next round up today?

Poorfour wrote:

Stella wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:He had ran marathons but yes, he's probably a bit big to run them especially quickly!

Definitely. Couldn't see him cracking 2hrs 30, even in his pomp.

My sister ran the London Marathon the same year as him and overtook him... I think he finished in about 4 hours. She said he didn't seem to be under any stress in cardio terms, but his knees and feet were clearly killing him.

On the sillier side of the multi-sports thing, Redgrave did take part in Celebrity Gladiators one year. While not proper sport, the events were designed to test a range of skills and abilities. He and Pinsent were the finalists.

Lay off Redgrave the marathon runner

I should add my version of Redgrave doing a marathon is not the beefcake we know, its a much skinnier version that has transferred his penchant for getting up at 4am every day to kill himself in training, with huge lungs and defiance of the term pain barrier.

SK , admittedly, isnt the greatest cricketer. But he is the greatest exponent of quite possibly the toughest art in all of sport. Most Leggies get it right as often as a medium pacer. The consistency Warne showed, even after the shoulder injury, is phenomenal.

Also, this isnt a blight on Redgrave in any way, but I do not understand the plaudits for his remaining at the top of an endurance sport for 4 Olympics. I thought you get better at endurance sports as you age. This is based on the fact that I havent seen any teen winners of the TdF. Also, I cant remember the last sub 30 year-old to win the Comrades Ultra Marathon. I theorize that this is why so many older players are remaining at the top, due to it being more endurance-related.
Again, this is not a critique, but I think the wonder is more that he started so early.

Like I said I voted for Warne, but I understand why he is losing.

You need raw sprinting power too though for 2k boat races, which you also lose with age. And whilst we haven't seen any teen winners of the Tour (not physically developed enough, your peak should be in your mid twenties), it's only recently we've seen any clean winners either so most of the winners in the Tour over the past 20 years can't really be used as an accurate barometer of what you need to be good at endurance cycling

Ive never rowed more than 500m in my life, and I doubt that I have rowed more than 10-15 times, so I am no expert. If you say that its stamina & raw power, then I will take you at your word.

Rowing isn't an endurance sport in the same way that, say, cycling or distance running is. As I said somewhere above, it's like lifting a 40-50kg weight from b below your feet to your chest, 40 times per minute, for 7 minutes.

You start with your arms straight, reaching out of the boat, but your legs, back and shoulders coiled into the stroke. By the end you will have pulled your arms into your chest, pulled your shoulders back, opened and turned your back, and driven your legs back until they are dead straight and even your toes are extended.

I've read before that the only other sport that comes anywhere close to working your cardiovascular system as hard as rowing is cross-country ski-ing, and even that doesn't work as many muscle groups.

It's an endurance sport, but perhaps the only endurance sport that relies on the repeated application of power over an extended period. Long distance running is about having as little weight and muscle as possible while still being able to propel yourself forward at speed, and even in a race you won't be working your lungs and heart at full intensity for much of the distance. Cycling requires more power, but works on a similar principle. Rowing is about having as much power as possible (I'm 6'4" and at my peak fitness was about 100kg, and I'd be quite small by the standards of today's international rowers), and being able to deliver it at near-full-intensity for an extended period of time.

To be the best in the world at doing that from your late teens to your mid 30s is a huge achievement.

oh so you do it semi-professionally?
I practised rowing for an extreme triathlon (rowing, trail running, mountain biking).
It was the first and only time I rowed.

But I can tell you a lot more about cricket. That combned with the fact that, till otherwise convinced, I find Leggies the most difficult art in sport prompted me to pick Warne.

Every country has a few class rowers, while most Club teams dont have Nearly capable leggie, much less national teams. Take Warne & Kumble away how many big-time wicket taking leggies do you see?

Lastly I am truly shocked that I havent seen Ryan Sandes on any line-up. The first winner of all four of the four Deserts ultra-marathons. To think guys with less accolades are competing while he isnt is sad. And no one can tell me running isnt a mass-participation sport, even in its ultra form. The man ran 100km in Antarctica

This Sandes sounds like an awesome athlete but perhaps lacking the profile in the UK to be in the original 64 - I bet most on here have never heard of him which is a shame.

Its similar I suppose to Leanda Cave who is British and the Women's Ironman Triathlon World Champion winning in a time that you would barely believe is possible. It hardly made the news here despite probably being our best female athlete.

I'm sure rowing is a complete killer, but equally the races actually don't last that long which has to be taken into account. It's a peak for a relatively short period, very different to a day on the Ventoux say or running a marathon.

As far as ultra marathons are concerned, everyone - Sandes and anyone else - has to give best to Yiannis Kouros, a Greek who still holds virtually every time and distance record you like from 24 hours and 100 miles upwards. A freak, who would have been a worthy addition to the original list.

Rowing, in my eyes, is very much middle distance and I equate it with a less tactical more brutal version of the 800m

When you really think about it though, his achievements did transcend the sport a bit. I know he also won loads of medals at world regattas but Olympics are played out in front of huge global audiences, and he won gold at 5 in a row, many of course have won more medals overall (due to their sport allowing for multi event participation by individual athletes) but to be at the top of your game in a brutally physical event like rowing for 5 Olympics I'd say yeah he probably is known fairly globally especially after the 4th & 5th Olympic golds. Not only that, I assume he'll be very well known in diabetes and Ulcerative Colitis circles worldwide as a shining example of how it's possible to not only cope but actually thrive despite the potential debilitating effects of those two horrible afflictions.

You can bet your bottom dollar everywhere Warne is known and appreciated, Redgrave will be too but there will be major parts of the world where Redgrave would be recognised as a great Olympian e.g. U.S. Continental Europe, Russia, South America etc and at the same time your average Joe in those places would ask...Shane who?

I'm not sure what the difficult choice was on this one and why 30% managed to get it wrong.

Yeah, I'm sure Redgrave is a household name in India...not. And you think the yanks care about someone who isn't one of their own ?
Ill say it again, Elizabeth Lipa. 7 medals, 5 golds , 6 games...as a rower. Household name , no way, not even close, so why assume Redgrave is ? British hubris, thats why.
Sorry Jas, don't remotely agree.

Because with no offence to Romania, our sport, media and country, ESP with the ex pats and allies we have everywhere, are all much higher profile than Romania's. Romania had an excellent rugby team in the 60s-80s too but most rugby fans either don't know or don't care about that. This isn't a Romanian forum, it's predominantly a British one and as I've said above, making assumptions for what other countries might vote is just as arrogant as focussing on British athletes.

I don't see an exceptional number of French athletes, or Russians or Chinese athletes in the list. As this is an entirely subjective exercise, there always will and IMO should be national bias

Its one thing saying there is a national bias in the competition, its another thing saying someone will have global recognition, basically because we have a national bias.
We have had guys from New Zealand who used to row saying they hadnt heard of Redgrave till he came to the UK. You have to accept anecdotal evidence sometimes. Basically rowing is not the kind of sport that makes for global household names, especially when the guy is one of a crew. The rest of the world just thinks, hey the Brits are pretty good and isnt one of their guys always in the boat.

Aye because in the sporting world Diggers it's absolutely essential to be a household name in the global sporting superpower that is India!! Outside cricket what else are they prominent in.

I take your very good point about Liz Lipa and had she appeared in one of these match ups I'd have gone and done a bit of research on her achievements and made a judgement based on that....for the record yeah, had she been matched against Shane I'd probably have voted for her.

Aye because in the sporting world Diggers it's absolutely essential to be a household name in the global sporting superpower that is India!! Outside cricket what else are they prominent in.

I take your very good point about Liz Lipa and had she appeared in one of these match ups I'd have gone and done a bit of research on her achievements and made a judgement based on that....for the record yeah, had she been matched against Shane I'd probably have voted for her.