Ulster vs Ospreys

First topic message reminder :

Game on Friday, another sell-out crowd, but like everyone else we're scrabbling around with the Six Nations and injuries, trying to make ends meet. Declan Fitzpatrick, Rory Best, Chris Henry, Iain Henderson, Paddy Jackson and Craig Gilroy are all with the national side. John Afoa and Jared Payne are on leave to ensure they stay fresh on the home straight of the season. And Adam Macklin, Paddy McAllister, Stephen Ferris, Nick Williams, Roger Wilson, Tommy Bowe, Chris Farrell, Peter Nelson and Adam D'Arcy are all still injured.

Selection is further complicated by the news that Darren Cave and Andrew Trimble have been called into the Ireland squad as cover for Earls and D'Arcy- they are included here but aren't likely to be released from tacklebag duty until Thursday.

Forwards (14)

Nigel Brady, Rob Herring, Niall Annett, Callum Black, Ricky Lutton, Andrew Warwick, Tom Court, Lewis Stevenson, Dan Tuohy, Neil McComb, Johann Muller, Mike McComish Robbie Diack, Ali Birch.

Backs (11)

Ruan Pienaar, Paul Marshall, Niall O’Connor, Stuart Olding, Paddy Wallace, Luke Marshall, Darren Cave, Michael Allen, Andrew Trimble, Chris Cochrane, Ricky Andrew.

There is some good news- Johann Muller, Dan Tuohy and Luke Marshall are back and available for selection. But it's a squad with no recognised tighthead, only 3 recognised backrows and only one recognised fullback. Of the props, it is to be hoped Tom Court stays at loosehead- the joke of trying him at 3 is testament to how we will fail to get the best out of him in that position and would further damage his international chances. Of the 4 looseheads in the squad the burden will probably fall on Richard Lutton to wear the 3 shirt with 21 year-old Prop/Hooker Andrew Warwick covering for him on the bench.

I would move the hard-grafting Neil McComb to the blindside flanker as a lineout option and a ball carrier, given how light we are in the backrow. With Jackson missing at 10, it's a good opportunity to look at Stuart Olding outside Ruan Pienaar and Luke Marshall to come off the bench.

Notchs XV;

1. Tom Court
2. Nigel Brady
3. Richard Lutton
4. Johann Muller (c)
5. Dan Tuohy
6. Neil McComb
7. Mike McComish
8. Robbie Diack
9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Stuart Olding
11. Andrew Trimble
12. Paddy Wallace
13. Darren Cave
14. Michael Allen
15. Ricky Andrew

16. Rob Herring 17. Andrew Warwick 18. Callum Black 19. Lewis Stevenson 20. Ali Birch 21. Paul Marshall 22. Luke Marshall 23. Chris Cochrane.

Im quietly confident that in Munster we can turn a few ordinary looking guys in to decent props in time.

Stephen Archer, Alan Cotter and John Ryan are our three choices here for now.

Archer hasn't done badly. He has played Heineken Cup, he played against Australia, he played for Ireland Wolfohund and just turned 25 last week.

Cotter and Ryan have got less game time. We've got them out on short term loans to the Premiership where they got game time with Bath and London Irish.

I don't want to see us having Botha in two more years. I'd hope that we find the way to get these guys in.

The idea of moving Court to TH isn't ludicrous at all. When he was first signed it was as a TH and he played for Ireland A there even before he played for Ulster.

Court's (and every prop's) problem is being switched from side to side. It's like comparing water and snow skiing - both skiing but totally opposite execution. When Court got a run of five/six games starting at TH about three seasons ago with BJ and the bear both injured, he improved every game and looked as though he could play there just fine. I'd certainly have him there over any of the names mentioned above, but obviously not while Afoa is still around.

Why isn't Ireland producing more TH's? It's not about the quantity but rather the quality of the gametime they get. Ulster let Jerry Cronin move across to England, as in truth that is the only place where a TH will learn properly. The scrum is held in much higher esteem in England and so the quality of the coaching and opposition faced is far better than in the Rabo. Rather than keep Moore and Furlong in Ireland they should be encouraged to go to England where they would learn far more far faster.

BTW in the Wolfhounds game it was interesting seeing two THs in PDJ and Brookes who were both Irish qualified and yet chose England, despite the opportunities with Ireland.

red_stag wrote:

Notch wrote:If Afoa leaves and no Irish player wants to come, we have to go into the 2014/2015 season with only two tightheads on contract.

Actually what if I told you there was an Irish player who has played tighthead at provincial and international level, who is already gelled into the Ulster team and can make that problem go away.

He can't make that problem go away!

Exactly Aukster,

When I say move Court I dont mean have him there a few games a year.

I mean when Afoa leaves have him EVERY week at tighthead and then judge how he does.

IRFU should definitely have programmes in place to get young props on season long loans to Premiership and also Championship teams like Doncaster or Rotherham or Bristol.

Notch wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Notch wrote:If Afoa leaves and no Irish player wants to come, we have to go into the 2014/2015 season with only two tightheads on contract.

Actually what if I told you there was an Irish player who has played tighthead at provincial and international level, who is already gelled into the Ulster team and can make that problem go away.

He can't make that problem go away!

Agree to disagree. I guess I just have a little more faith in Court. Sad to see that Ulster fans don't rate him higher.











(ok that one was for fun)

The Great Aukster wrote:The idea of moving Court to TH isn't ludicrous at all. When he was first signed it was as a TH and he played for Ireland A there even before he played for Ulster.

Court's (and every prop's) problem is being switched from side to side. It's like comparing water and snow skiing - both skiing but totally opposite execution. When Court got a run of five/six games starting at TH about three seasons ago with BJ and the bear both injured, he improved every game and looked as though he could play there just fine. I'd certainly have him there over any of the names mentioned above, but obviously not while Afoa is still around.

Why isn't Ireland producing more TH's? It's not about the quantity but rather the quality of the gametime they get. Ulster let Jerry Cronin move across to England, as in truth that is the only place where a TH will learn properly. The scrum is held in much higher esteem in England and so the quality of the coaching and opposition faced is far better than in the Rabo. Rather than keep Moore and Furlong in Ireland they should be encouraged to go to England where they would learn far more far faster.

BTW in the Wolfhounds game it was interesting seeing two THs in PDJ and Brookes who were both Irish qualified and yet chose England, despite the opportunities with Ireland.

PDJ and Brookes choose England because they are English and wanted to play for England. We didn't "let them get away". We don't want to get like soccer were our team is made up of England rejects. Id rather we try produce out own.

I'm not joking when I say I will be voting for Tom Court as Ulster Player of the Season based on what I've seen so far.

Ahead of Pienaar, Williams, Trimble, Best, Afoa etc. that is high praise. Whatever the answer is at tighthead post-Afoa, he'll hopefully be destroying scrums with big Tom and Rory beside him.

Notch wrote:Whatever the answer is at tighthead post-Afoa, he'll hopefully be destroying scrums with big Tom and Rory beside him.

I'm sure that either Callum Black or Paddy McAllister will be.

Black is backup. Mcallister is an interesting one. I think he was carrying too much weight for the amount of loose play he was involved in. His injury profile is ferris esque

Okay,

Can anyone give me a brief, Ladybird guide as to why the skiiset for a LH and a TH are so different?

I get that one is pushing against 2 shoulders and the other only one but surely the rest is technique which can be learned, no? Like it's not the same as trying to get a 9 to play TH.

Looking for information, not an argument.

MrsP wrote:Okay,

Can anyone give me a brief, Ladybird guide as to why the skiiset for a LH and a TH are so different?

I get that one is pushing against 2 shoulders and the other only one but surely the rest is technique which can be learned, no? Like it's not the same as trying to get a 9 to play TH.

Looking for information, not an argument.

http://www.ruckingball.com/2011/05/guest-blog-tighthead-masterclass-by-cobus-visagie/

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0324/1224313818427.html

Try these MrsP

MrsP wrote:Okay,

Can anyone give me a brief, Ladybird guide as to why the skiiset for a LH and a TH are so different?

I get that one is pushing against 2 shoulders and the other only one but surely the rest is technique which can be learned, no? Like it's not the same as trying to get a 9 to play TH.

Looking for information, not an argument.

They are basically doing the complete opposite thing. It's a bit like saying if you can write right-handed then you should be able to switch to writing with your left. Yes it's technique that can be learned- but it's not something you dabble in. You devote a career to mastering one or the other.

Reggie Corrigan wrote:The two positions are completely different in the way you carry them out. I often compare it to writing with your left and right hands, they're that different.

The most important thing in the scrum is that the loosehead prop (No 1) is against one other player and the tighthead prop (No 3) is against two.

Because of the way a scrum is formed, with the right shoulder of the loosehead being against the right shoulder of the tighthead, it means that the opposition's hooker (No 2) is also pushing against the tighthead.

That alone makes it a really arduous task, because he has two players pushing against him as opposed to one. The other thing that makes it difficult is, because of the imbalanced way that the scrum is set up, three against three, the two hookers tend to be the fulcrum.

Imagine a merry-go-round, it is like that. The scrum will naturally spin on the axis of the hooker. The tighthead is trying to stop that spin, the loosehead is causing that spin.

The idea that we should be asking a specialist loosehead to switch to tighthead is a bad joke. If you're going to switch someone, it should be done at the Academy stage. Court was a very late- and unusually successful- example of someone who was switched positions in the front row. He was never going to make it as a tighthead, but had potential to be a really excellent loosehead. It was when Reggie Corrigan got his hands on him and realised that him switching position to loosehead could be the making of him his career turned around.

The idea someone can suggest he switch back from the position he's international class at to the position he wasn't good enough for Ulster at makes me want to laugh and cry. I thought this Court at tighthead thing was done with. I'm very disappointed to see him back there for Ulster.

I am starting to see that indeed Notch.

Seems the front row are not just taking a wee rest leaning against each other at scrum time then!



Thanks Clyde!

Seems like Anscombe is listening to Staggy

Ulster XV & replacements to face Ospreys, RaboDirect PRO12, Ravenhill, Friday 8th February 2013 (kick off 7.05pm):

(15-9): R Andrew, A Trimble, L Marshall, P Wallace, M Allen; S Olding, R Pienaar;
(1-8): C Black, R Herring, T Court, J Muller (capt), L Stevenson, M McComish, A Birch, R Diack;

Replacements (16-23): N Annett, R Lutton, A Warwick, D Tuohy, N McComb, P Marshall, D Cave, C Cochrane.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Seems like Anscombe is listening to Staggy

Ulster XV & replacements to face Ospreys, RaboDirect PRO12, Ravenhill, Friday 8th February 2013 (kick off 7.05pm):

(15-9): R Andrew, A Trimble, L Marshall, P Wallace, M Allen; S Olding, R Pienaar;
(1-8): C Black, R Herring, T Court, J Muller (capt), L Stevenson, M McComish, A Birch, R Diack;

Replacements (16-23): N Annett, R Lutton, A Warwick, D Tuohy, N McComb, P Marshall, D Cave, C Cochrane.

This is what I mean by us having a tighthead crisis at grassroots Jen. The highlighted players are all specialist looseheads. If we convert a 32-year old loosehead back to tighthead we're just kicking the can down the road again really... we need scrum coaching and mentoring at every level for new tightheads.

It's unfortunate that Court has to move out of position this weekend. I'm very apprehensive and disappointed for the big man.

I'm excited for the big man that more money and recognition awaits.

It should be noted that Corrigan was a rubbish scrummager.

rodders wrote:It should be noted that Corrigan was a rubbish scrummager.

+1 (and still is a clown).

rodders wrote:It should be noted that Corrigan was a rubbish scrummager.

Ah Here. There's no need for that. He "gave it a lash"

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:It should be noted that Corrigan was a rubbish scrummager.

+1 (and still is a clown).

You're just bitter cause he called you a "Lunster"

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:It should be noted that Corrigan was a rubbish scrummager.

+1 (and still is a clown).

You're just bitter cause he called you a "Lunster"

If he did, he got that wrong as well.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

rodders wrote:It should be noted that Corrigan was a rubbish scrummager.

Ah Here. There's no need for that. He "gave it a lash"

You mean at loosehead or tighthead?

Because I don't think it should at all. A good player does not necessarily equal a good coach and vice versa.

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:It should be noted that Corrigan was a rubbish scrummager.

+1 (and still is a clown).

You're just bitter cause he called you a "Lunster"

If he did, he got that wrong as well.

Ah I know you're from Lar Corbettville, but you've lived in Dublin too long. There's a smell of the pale off yah.

Ok I think I can sort this I am 24 I shall put on about 8 stone and at 5 foot 8 I could get under most props then stick me on a scrum machine and hire me a coach Ill be ready to go by the time Afoa leaves.
Seriously though we do need to be developing these guys earlier as Notch says it says a lot that out best option at the minute is to be talking about turning a 32 year old loosehead into a tighthead. Ulster should be looking at one of the youngs guys on the ench turning tightead now then build them up too in my opinion.

Interestingly I was refereeing an U16 game in Limerick before Christmas and as usual I asked to talk to front rows before kick off.

Usually I get about 4 players but there were 12 players in the team who were front row trained.

Coach explained that you don't know how peoples body type changes you'll have centres who develop a gut and will turn to a hooker or a flanker who becomes a prop.

His idea was that most players unless really not suitable physically should be taught in training how to scrummage.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:It should be noted that Corrigan was a rubbish scrummager.

+1 (and still is a clown).

You're just bitter cause he called you a "Lunster"

If he did, he got that wrong as well.

Ah I know you're from Lar Corbettville, but you've lived in Dublin too long. There's a smell of the pale off yah.

I'm from Baile Donnacha Ryan. Ever hear the saying keep your friends close, but your enemies even closer?

That was definately the approach our Mini Rugby coaches took.

This lead to a few interesting incidents.

One when the smallest lad was playing hooker and he could hardly reach the ground while bound.

The second was when they had my daughter having a wee go at playing prop. She was 10 or 11 and the only girl at the club at this stage. Just as the second row went to bind the penny dropped with the coach and the look on his face was a real picture. Funny thing was that the lad in the second row just put his arm around her of his own accord rather than binding in the more conventional way. Much to the coach's relief.

red_stag wrote:Interestingly I was refereeing an U16 game in Limerick before Christmas and as usual I asked to talk to front rows before kick off.

Usually I get about 4 players but there were 12 players in the team who were front row trained.

Coach explained that you don't know how peoples body type changes you'll have centres who develop a gut and will turn to a hooker or a flanker who becomes a prop.

His idea was that most players unless really not suitable physically should be taught in training how to scrummage.

Absolutely. That way if someone does switch to the front row later they have the basics.

Clever man.

neilthom7 wrote:Ok I think I can sort this I am 24 I shall put on about 8 stone and at 5 foot 8 I could get under most props then stick me on a scrum machine and hire me a coach Ill be ready to go by the time Afoa leaves.
Seriously though we do need to be developing these guys earlier as Notch says it says a lot that out best option at the minute is to be talking about turning a 32 year old loosehead into a tighthead. Ulster should be looking at one of the youngs guys on the ench turning tightead now then build them up too in my opinion.

It would be better to have another NIQ tighthead than that. At least if we get in another NIQ player they can't ignore the massive problem we have. I get the impression nothing is being done about this.

Getting rid of the NIQs isn't going to solve a thing. Just mean we have props playing who aren't up to it because they are starting way too late.

MrsP wrote:

One when the smallest lad was playing hooker and he could hardly reach the ground while bound.

That's the way it used to be. Ciaran Fitzgerald anyone?

Hookers, especially at schools level, used to be like scrum halves. That was before someone worked out the forces involved in a scrum and how they were all focused on the hooker's neck.

Sin é wrote:
I'm from Baile Donnacha Ryan. Ever hear the saying keep your friends close, but your enemies even closer?

I meant the county rather than the town.

Funnily enough I have a few Ryans from East Limerick in my bloodline....... Seriously tough people. (My ones anyway)

Although every 2nd person in East Limerick and Tipp is called Ryan.

Notch moving Court wouldnt be best for Ulster or Ireland. Dont think I ever said that. But it would be a great career move for Court.

Obviously best thing is get young tightheads through system.

But Court could do well for himself off it.

If thats what he wants to do- I mean, he'd be fecking himself up career wise. It depends on whether he wants to be the best player he can be or trade it in for the money.

I mean Sexton is going to Racing Metro, but he gets to push himself as a player in his best position. To still go in each day trying to be the very best 10 he can be. Once Court turns around and says; I'd rather get payed more than be the best prop I can be I don't see how he gets in the team at Ulster. I don't see how he gets a contract. Because the reason we are top of the Pro12 is that if there's anyone with that attitude, they aren't in the side.

And Court more than anyone has been bursting to show what a good player he can be for Ulster. He has that hunger. If he switches to tighthead, it's because he's willing to compromise achievement on the rugby pitch for a better contract.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

MrsP wrote:

One when the smallest lad was playing hooker and he could hardly reach the ground while bound.

That's the way it used to be. Ciaran Fitzgerald anyone?

Hookers, especially at schools level, used to be like scrum halves. That was before someone worked out the forces involved in a scrum and how they were all focused on the hooker's neck.

Keith Wood was fly half at School wasn't he?

Rugby is a simple game, no need to over analyse or listen to waffling pundits like Corrigan who want to make it sound complicated.... best thing about the Kiwi coaches like Schmidt and Anscombe is they have no problem moving people around.

rodders wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

MrsP wrote:

One when the smallest lad was playing hooker and he could hardly reach the ground while bound.

That's the way it used to be. Ciaran Fitzgerald anyone?

Hookers, especially at schools level, used to be like scrum halves. That was before someone worked out the forces involved in a scrum and how they were all focused on the hooker's neck.

Keith Wood was fly half at School wasn't he?

Rugby is a simple game, no need to over analyse or listen to waffling pundits like Corrigan who want to make it sound complicated.... best thing about the Kiwi coaches like Schmidt and Anscombe is they have no problem moving people around.

Moving people around from numbers 4-15 is a lot different to moving people in the front row. You're just making yourself sound foolish if you maintain otherwise. Scrummaging is very technical thing, mainly about getting small things correct so you can use your strength.

Reggie Corrigan is someone I was incredibly disappointed to see leaving Ulster Rugby. Like I say, the improvements in Tom Courts technique mainly happened under his watch and our scrum went from a liability to a major strength in the 12 months or so he was on our coaching staff. Obviously I can understand why he'd prefer a job with Leinster (he works as a scrum coach in their academy), but I was still disappointed to see him go.

As for Anscombe and Schmidt... surely what sets them aside is the attention they pay to incredibly small details. Thats certainly what players interviewed about them say. D'ye think they just say "Lets give it a lash, its all about passion?". Its all about getting very small things right that change the big picture.

Will be good to see how Olding does, hopefully can push Jackson on and vice versa. Also will be interesting seeing Luke at 13, no reason why he can't perform there, maybe he is carrying a bit much weight for 13 though.

Great to see Anscombe give Olding a chance, when it would have been so much easier to give NOC a run and send Olding to the U20s.

Olding plays with his head up and that is the sign of a player with a future. I can't help but wonder though if some of these 10s coming through shouldn't consider playing at 9?

toml wrote:Will be good to see how Olding does, hopefully can push Jackson on and vice versa. Also will be interesting seeing Luke at 13, no reason why he can't perform there, maybe he is carrying a bit much weight for 13 though.

I don't see what his weight has to do with him playing 13 and not 12?

The Great Aukster wrote:Great to see Anscombe give Olding a chance, when it would have been so much easier to give NOC a run and send Olding to the U20s.

Olding plays with his head up and that is the sign of a player with a future. I can't help but wonder though if some of these 10s coming through shouldn't consider playing at 9?

No. Ruan isn't going to be here for much longer yes, but with Heaney coming through well this year we've got two decent 9's and a few more academy boys in the wings...

And at Irish level, no need. McGrath, Marmion, Heaney all coming through their respective provinces... McGrath looks like the real deal, but Marmion has been exposed to the highest level and hasn't let anyone down... Now if only we had such talent at TH

neilthom7 wrote:

toml wrote:Will be good to see how Olding does, hopefully can push Jackson on and vice versa. Also will be interesting seeing Luke at 13, no reason why he can't perform there, maybe he is carrying a bit much weight for 13 though.

I don't see what his weight has to do with him playing 13 and not 12?

Less likely to be as nimble on his feet and jinking. Personal preference in what a 13 does. He's bulked up a lot in the last couple of years.

...

toml wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:

toml wrote:Will be good to see how Olding does, hopefully can push Jackson on and vice versa. Also will be interesting seeing Luke at 13, no reason why he can't perform there, maybe he is carrying a bit much weight for 13 though.

I don't see what his weight has to do with him playing 13 and not 12?

Less likely to be as nimble on his feet and jinking. Personal preference in what a 13 does. He's bulked up a lot in the last couple of years.

Have you seen how ...er... bulked...Tuilagi and Basteraud are?

I'd say Marshall is at 13 because Olding needs as much experience on either side of him as possible - that's Pienaar and Wallace, and Cave has been out of Ulster training all week (and could conceivably be retained down South).

Not hugely confident, but given that we're putting together a squad without McAllister, Best, Afoa, Fitzpatrick, Macklin, Ferris, Henderson, Henry, Doyle, Wilson, Williams, Jackson, Gilroy, Bowe, Farrell, Payne, D'Arcy or Nelson, I;d say this is the best depth any Ulster squad has ever had.

I don't think it has effected his footwork, Tuilagi etc are much bigger, BOD is only just smaller so I don't imagine it will have a great effect as alot of outside centres are just as big.

red_stag wrote:Clive,

Unfortunately situations like this is part and parcel of being a top team. There are elements that aren't as pleasant as others.

Munster used to have their entire pack and their back up players too all missing for Ireland games. Not just front line guys but backups like Mick O'Driscoll, Donnacha Ryan, Tony Buckley, Frankie Sheahan etc.

Leinster lost 17 guys to the Rugby World Cup last year - doesnt matter who you are thats a big loss.

Whether you accept it as a valid argument or not doesnt matter. Ulsters game with Ospreys or Munsters with Edinburgh or whoever Leinster are playing does not matter to the IRFU compared to the national team.

There are a lot of benefits to players involved in Irish Rugby compared to playing in other countries. But there are some responsibilities too and prioritising the national team has always been one.

So true. Ulster, through mild success of late, are only starting to experience what it is like, to actually challenge the real European and domestic powers. It is heady stuff. How they handle that, is key to their future. Its not like they are losing so many to Ireland, as have Munster and Leinster in the past. With more provincial and HC success, Ulster will lose more of their players to Ireland.

There will be tears along the way. But most importantly, more international experience gleaned for their top players, will help them to realistically challenge for it all again next season.

Don't cry foul when and if it happens. Deal with it and grow up with it. All the great sides do.

Gibson wrote:
Don't cry foul when and if it happens. Deal with it and grow up with it. All the great sides do.

Hear hear Gibbo ..... mind you its easy for you to say...there likely won't be a Leinsterman in the 22 in a couple of seasons time ... ......

This is a really good idea and should have happened long ago.

https://www.translink.co.uk/Services/Metro-Service-Page/Special-Offers/Special-Rugby-Services-to-Ravenhill/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21367803

MrsP wrote:This is a really good idea and should have happened long ago.

https://www.translink.co.uk/Services/Metro-Service-Page/Special-Offers/Special-Rugby-Services-to-Ravenhill/

Thats quite good.

rodders wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21367803

I think there will be a lot of passing to avoid being the first man he tackles when he gets back on the pitch