v2 G.O.A.T Round 2 Match 11

First topic message reminder :

Morning, all.

After a brief pause we're back in the thick of the v2 G.O.A.T action. Tuesday's round 8 match saw Sir Steve Redgrave dominate Shane Warne, the 5-time Olympic rowing champion of Great Britain taking a huge 70% of the votes and going through to the last sixteen at the expense of the Australian leg spinner, who had to be content with 30%.

Elsewhere, football legend Diego Maradona topped a very competitive 3-way group, advancing to the next stage with 46% of the votes cast in match 9 as two track and field giants, Edwin Moses and Daley Thompson, fell by the wayside with 35% and 19% respectively.

Match 11 here has Sugar Ray Robinson, often cited as the greatest boxer of all time, squaring off against Michael Jordan, often cited as the greatest basketball player of all time. Curiously, we are still lacking a write up for Jordan, but vote away and leave your reason why you voted for the man you did.

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Sugar Ray Robinson- Boxing- Championed by superflyweight
Let’s start at the beginning for the man almost universally recognised as pound for pound, the greatest boxer who ever lived. Walker Smith Junior was born 3rd May 1921 and following his family's move to New York, started boxing in a local Harlem gym. At 14 he wanted to enter a tournament and in order to circumvent the age restrictions (the minimum age was 16) he borrowed his older friend's Amateur Athletic Union card. His friend's name was Ray Robinson. The "Sugar" (a reference to his "sweet style") came later but from the moment he borrowed his friend's identity, a legend was born.

Robinson quickly went about putting together an outstanding amateur C.V. eventually racking up a record of 85 wins with no defeats. 69 of those wins were via knockout and 40 of those came in the first round. He was Golden Gloves featherweight champion in 1939 and then lightweight champion in 1940.

Turning pro in 1940 at the age of just 19, Robinson quickly went about making a name for himself, comprehensively beating current lightweight champion, Sammy Angott (who had refused to put his belt on the line) in just his 21st fight and then twice defeating (the second via a stoppage) the experienced master of the dark arts and former welterweight champion, Fritzie Zivic. A few fights later he won an unanimous decision against future middleweight great, Jake La Motta who outweighed Sugar that night by almost 13lbs (two whole weight classes in today's fight scene). Robinson was no protected fighter and fights against Angott, Zivic and La Motta as well as other tough, experienced opponents (including an ageing Henry Armstrong who is often regarded as the second greatest boxer who ever lived), represents a tough induction for a young fighter who was a relative novice. Despite this tough induction, it wasn't until his 40th fight that Robinson tasted defeat, losing a decision in his second fight against La Motta who outweighed him by 16lbs that night.

How did Robinson react to that defeat? He went unbeaten for the next 8 years winning 91 fights in the process defeating La Motta another 4 times along the way. Across their 6 fights, La Motta (who was a top drawer and very tough middleweight who would go on to win the middleweight title from the great Marcel Cerdan) outweighed Robinson by an average of 12lbs.

During that run of 91 victories, Robinson eventually won the welterweight title in 1946 at the age of 25 (boxing politics (in the form of the notorious Mob run, International Boxing Club) had kept him away from the title). Having amassed a record of 75 wins, 1 draw and 1 defeat, Robinson was allowed to compete for the vacant welterweight world title, triumphing with a unanimous decision over Tommy Bell. Finally, the man everyone knew was the best welterweight on the planet, had the belt that was rightfully his. Robinson remained undefeated as welterweight champion until he vacated the belt in 1950. During his reign he notched up wins against fellow welterweight great and future champion, Kid Gavilan before increasing problems making the 147lbs weight limit had Sugar setting his sights on the middleweight division.

Robinson won the middleweight title from La Motta in the infamous Valentine's Day Massacre which features prominently in the film Raging Bull. La Motta was stopped in brutal fashion in the 13th (the only legitimate stoppage of the legendary granite chinned, La Motta in 95 fights) and Robinson was champion at a second weight. Robinson subsequently went on a valedictory tour of Europe (fighting in various European cities against European opponents) which by all accounts was little more than one long party. Robinson turned up in the UK slightly worse for wear and somewhat undercooked and lost his title to Britain's own Randy Turpin having been outpointed over 15 rounds. Robinson immediately won the title back from Turpin, stopping him in the 10th round when behind on the cards. Robinson then defended the title a further twice against future champion, Bobo Olsen and former champion Rocky Graziano.

Having successfully defended his middleweight title, Robinson immediately turned his attention to Joey Maxim’s light heavyweight title. Against a very fine light heavyweight in Maxim and operating in a division way above his welterweight peak, Robinson was well ahead on all of the cards when he failed to emerge for the 14th round due to heat exhaustion. The fight had been held outdoors at Yankee Stadium in New York in sweltering heat and humidity and in the end it proved too much for Sugar. Following that defeat, Robinson immediately announced his first retirement from the sport.

Robinson stayed retired for 2 and a ½ years before returning at middleweight to take the title back from Bobo Olsen (via a 2nd round knockout) at the age of 34. His form on his return was patchy – he would lose the title three times (regaining it twice) but it was in this run of fights that contained Robinson’s greatest and perhaps most famous moment in the ring. At the age of 35 and up against the formidable champion Gene Fullmer (a man who had already beaten Robinson convincingly in their previous fight), Robinson was just about holding his own and then in the 5th round unleashed what many consider to be the greatest knockout punch of all time. Robinson hit Fullmer with a lightning quick left hook to the jaw which sent Gene plummeting to the floor. The fight was over in an instant and Robinson was middleweight champion for the fourth time. How good was the punch? Judge for yourself in the video below and consider that Fullmer had never been off his feet in any fight until that point and was considered iron jawed. Here’s what Fullmer had to say about it – “I still don’t know anything about the punch except I watched it on movies a number of times. The first thing I knew, I was standing up. I asked my manager, ‘What happened?’ and he said, ‘They counted ten.’”

Robinson would lose and win back the title once more and then would fail in a couple of more title challenges. However, he was long past his best by this point and pushing 40. Unfortunately Robinson (driven by a need to keep earning money) would fight on for many more years and would tarnish his record by losing to men who would not have been fit to get in the ring with him at his peak. This should not detract from how good he was. If we consider him only at his peak (generally recognised as being everything up to , but not including the Joey Maxim fight), he amassed a record of 128 wins, 1 draw and 2 defeats. Just incredible numbers made more incredible by the names on his record. Robinson defeated 10 Hall of Famer’s in his career; Jake Lamotta, Sammy Angott, Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, Kid Gavilan, Rocky Graziano, Randy Turpin, Gene Fullmer and Carmen Basilio.

The following description of Robinson is by Monte Cox and is taken from the excellent website “Cox’s Corner” and it describes Robinson better than I ever could:

“What other fighter could beat you more ways than could Sugar Ray Robinson? Ray could out box boxers and out punch punchers. He could do it inside or outside, going forward or backward. Ray could do it with his powerful left hook as he did against Gene Fullmer or with his perfect straight right as he did against Rocky Graziano. Joe Louis could throw triple left hooks with speed, power and accuracy that could destroy a man. Robinson could throw triple left hooks and triple right hooks that could do the same. Who else could do that and maintain frightening power?... Ray Robinson was the archetype of a complete fighter. If one combines his polished, grand boxing style with his powerful punching and cast iron chin with a will to win unsurpassed in the annals of boxing one has a perfect fighter.

“To sum it up, Robinson was the consummate professional fighter who possessed every physical asset; speed, agility, mobility, and tremendous punching power. He rates among a select few of the all time greats who could defeat fighters using their own best assets against them. Robinson, a true sharpshooter, easily rates among the best pound for pound punchers in history. Robinson is possibly the greatest combination puncher of all time. His quality of opposition is among the top five. Ray’s peak won-loss record is among the top three. Ray’s overall ring record and accomplishments also rate among the top three. Robinson is among the top five of all time in the category of longevity. Ray had all the intangibles, great experience, killer instinct, a tremendous chin and heart.”

Let’s finish by looking at what his fellow greats had to say about him:

“Someone once said there was a comparison between Sugar Ray Leonard and Sugar Ray Robinson. Believe me, there's no comparison. Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest."
Sugar Ray Leonard

“The king, the master, my idol.”
“That man was beautiful. Timing, speed, reflexes, rhythm, his body, everything was beautiful. And to me, still, I would say pound for pound...I'd say I'm the greatest heavyweight of all time, but pound for pound, I still say Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest of all time.”
Muhammad Ali

Quite simply, Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest boxer who ever lived and operated the peak of one of the toughest sports for a period of more than 20 years. He is regarded as far and away the greatest welterweight who ever lived (ahead of men like Armstrong, Sugar Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns and Jose Naploles) and most observers have him in their top 5 middleweights. He had great talent, he faced and beat the best and he reigned at the top for an incredible period of time. In short, he was the complete sportsman!

And all of those countries have high levels of participation in basketball , they just can't compete as teams with the global superpower that is America but I think in the future China could change that, maybe also Brazil and Spain.
Anyway decent debate and one I feel destined for us to disagree one. For what it's worth Id rather watch a decent boxing match than a basketball game though I have been to an NBA game and loved it, was lucky enough to see Lebron James play.

Wait, who wins this tie?

Spaghetti's been banned for 6 days, so I assume SRR wins?

If the LeBron James debacle has told us anything, they will do sod all about it despite it being a blatant stitch up.

Well considering the admin have banned SH for rigging the vote, surely we can have a re-vote or something.
SH is also a big Federer and LeBron fan...

Was thinking about the number of pro boxers and then realised of course anyone can turn pro as long as they pass a medical, it must be one of the few sports ...only one ? ...when you can be utterly useless and still earn some kind of living by padding out someone's else's career record.
You can't do that on a team sport, you have to be considered good enough to be given a pro contract and the competition is huge.
We all know how hard it is to be even remotely good enough to get close to being sig ed for a conference football side let alone a decent league. You can't just choose to be a pro basketball player, you need talent, but you can just choose to be a pro boxer if you are healthy however rubbish you might be just to put a meal on the table.

In fact the Flintoff debacle proves this ideally, a 30 something ex cricketer can choose to be a pro and record a win against a guy who I believe had a winning record after a few months training and without displaying a great deal of natural ability.
No way would they happen in basketball or indeed any sport, you'd never get a sniff of a team giving you a contract, and that just shows Im afraid how poor the standard can be in pro boxing.

its very naive to judge boxing on the flintoff case, to all parties involved it made money sense, and like many many sports money talks. there is of course a need for journeymen in boxing just like theres average basketballers all around the world, ive known some players who have played professionally in basketball in this country and to call them athletes or even decent is laughable. we all know the state of the heavyweight division but are you saying some of these leagues in basketball across europe are of a better standard, please feel free to enlighten us who's currently taken the Hungarian league by storm

The Flintoff case isn't naive, it's a factual case in point, try explaining how that could happen in any other sport.
To earn money in basketball you get paid to be on a team and contribute , it's a meritocracy, in boxing you can get paid as a pro and the promoter is quite happy for you to lose.
Again, please give examples of other sports where this is the case, nobody is doing that.

Diggers wrote:The Flintoff case isn't naive, it's a factual case in point, try explaining how that could happen in any other sport.
To earn money in basketball you get paid to be on a team and contribute , it's a meritocracy, in boxing you can get paid as a pro and the promoter is quite happy for you to lose.
Again, please give examples of other sports where this is the case, nobody is doing that.

The kid he was fighting was a fat slob who had beaten 2 fat slobs previously.

It's not like he won the British title.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

Diggers wrote:The Flintoff case isn't naive, it's a factual case in point, try explaining how that could happen in any other sport.
To earn money in basketball you get paid to be on a team and contribute , it's a meritocracy, in boxing you can get paid as a pro and the promoter is quite happy for you to lose.
Again, please give examples of other sports where this is the case, nobody is doing that.

The kid he was fighting was a fat slob who had beaten 2 fat slobs previously.

It's not like he won the British title.

That's exactly the point. Neither if them should be allowed to call themselves professional boxers but its the nature of the sport they they can.

Diggers wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

Diggers wrote:The Flintoff case isn't naive, it's a factual case in point, try explaining how that could happen in any other sport.
To earn money in basketball you get paid to be on a team and contribute , it's a meritocracy, in boxing you can get paid as a pro and the promoter is quite happy for you to lose.
Again, please give examples of other sports where this is the case, nobody is doing that.

The kid he was fighting was a fat slob who had beaten 2 fat slobs previously.

It's not like he won the British title.

That's exactly the point. Neither if them should be allowed to call themselves professional boxers but its the nature of the sport they they can.

Don't look into the name. At that level boxers still hold down full time jobs. They may be called pros but they are part timers.

Sorry Jack Im not sure you are following the point Im making, which is anyone can be a pro boxer...hence the reason there are probably so many pros.
It's just a meal ticket for some, get punched, lose get paid do it again.
It's the only sort I can think of at a professional where ability and even desire to succeed are not prerequisites at all levels.

I'm not sure what relevance your argument has, diggers. Yes, a large number of particpants in professional boxing are sadly lacking in talent and ambition but this is equally true in lots of sports (I watch a lot of Scottish football so I know). The fact is, that a lot of the journeymen are part-time at best but they play an important role in the development of promising young boxers as they give their more talented opponents valuable experience and ring time.

The Flintoff thing was a circus and done for TV. It bears no more resemblance to boxing at the highest level than the celebrity v ex-pro football game that Sky used to do bears any resemblance to top level football.

As with all sports, the cream in boxing rises to the top and the men who have performed it to the greatest level are more than worthy of consideration in this process.

The relevance is pretty simple, I was querying an earlier post about their being 18000 professional boxers and this to me is explaining why...because anyone can do it and earn money.
Im sorry but thats completely different to any other sport, sure you can be a journeyman golfer but you need to perform and beat people to get paid, ditto tennis.
Its utterly naive to think that any team sport that pays wont have a queue of people willing to take those places in their squad, you have to be able to give something on merit to a side otherwise you are out and someone will be taking your spot.
This isnt the case in boxing, a promoter will pay time and time again for someone to get in the ring and lose. The Flintoff case was a circus but it does also serve to illustrate the point...which is......there may well be a hell of a lot of pro boxers but many of those guys have no right to call themselves professional sportsmen, they should be called willing punchbags as thats the only role they serve.

with regards to the dodgy voting is there anyway the votes and who voted can be seen by us, it wouldn't take long to realise that guest, or 1 posts 4 posts suddenly all voted one way in a small space of time. i recogonise most of the long term users name as i sure many others do. it would certainly ease the load on the mods and im not sure why we need a secret vote on this we all are putting down who we voted anyway also if someone wants to vote jordan over srr then they deserve my full scorn and then i can kindly ignore all of his comments from then on

I dont know anything with regards to rigging, thats one for the mods. But I dont actually see it as all that controversial that Michael Jordon would be voted ahead of Robinson. I regularly see it on greatest sportsmen lists.

I dont know about about basketball in Robinsons era. Boxing I would guess was more global back then. But in Jordons era onwards basketball is a massively global sport played in lots of countries and I would say more global, participated and followed than boxing so I dont agree at all with those that say its just some American insular sport. It may have been originally, but not now.

Realistically this particular board appears to be dominated by rugby, boxing and cricket so its not overly surprising to see these sports getting a strong backing but for the sake of objectivity I think its far from clear cut that boxing is more global than basketball or vice versa or that Robinson is greater than Jordan.

Has SRR won now?

We have made the decision that both Jordan and SRR will progress into the next round making one match a three way vote, in the interest of 'getting on with it' another vote between the two would only prolong the process. Hope you all find this a fair compromise.

Round 3 starts tomorrow and there are some very interesting match ups!

MtotheC wrote:We have made the decision that both Jordan and SSR will progress into the next round making one match a three way vote, in the interest of 'getting on with it' another vote between the two would only prolong the process. Hope you all find this a fair compromise.

Round 3 starts tomorrow and there are some very interesting match ups!

Fair action, sir.

MtotheC wrote:We have made the decision that both Jordan and SSR will progress into the next round making one match a three way vote, in the interest of 'getting on with it' another vote between the two would only prolong the process. Hope you all find this a fair compromise.

Round 3 starts tomorrow and there are some very interesting match ups!

Any chance Jahangir Khan can get another shot at the title?