v2 G.O.A.T Round 2 Match 13

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport

Below are the previous round 1 articles written by forum members

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Pele- Football- Champion by paperbag_puncher

Only when I sat down to write this article did the sheer scale of what I was attempting to do hit me. This article should really write itself, yet there are no words that can accurately describe the greatness of 'The King of Football' There are few human beings throughout history in any walk of life who have reached the iconic status of Pele.
“My name is Ronald Reagan, I’m the President of the United States of America. But you don’t need to introduce yourself, because everyone knows who Pele is.”
Ronald Reagan

Like most young boys I grew up hearing stories of this mythical man from Brazil who could create magic with his feet. I’d always been told of his greatness and happily accepted it but I was doing the man a great disservice by simply accepting it. Only as I got older and researched further did I realise how great he actually was. I am genuinely grateful that I have agreed to write this piece as it has given me the opportunity to revisit and explore the career of arguably the greatest sports person to have graced this earth.

There is no doubt in my mind that Pele was the most complete player of those who are generally mentioned in the greatest ever debates. Blessed with an unbelievable combination of pace, power, balance and close control he beat defenders at will making everything look effortless. Capable of the unpredictable and the sublime he was very much ahead of his time. Two footed and lethal in the air he was the ultimate goal scorer. The famous stat of 1281 goals in 1363 games is testament to this.

Pele said in 2006: "For 20 years they have asked me the same question, who is the greatest? Pele or Maradona? I reply that all you have to do is look at the facts - how many goals did he score with his right foot or with his head?"

Pele made his debut for Santos at the tender age of 15 scoring on his debut in 1956. By the time the 1957 season came around he was a first team regular and finished as the league’s top scorer. Just 10 months later he was called up to the Brazilian national team scoring in a 2-1 defeat to Argentina making him the youngest ever international scorer at 16 years and 9 months. He would go on to become and still is Brazil’s top goal scorer with a remarkable 77 goals in 92 games.

1958 was Pele’s breakout year and he announced himself to the world in style. He won his first major title the Campeonato Paulista with Santos scoring a record 58 goals along the way (a record that still stands) He was selected for the 1958 World Cup at the insistence of of his team mates despite being injured, which shows the regard the 17 year old was already held in. He played a pivotal role scoring the winner against Wales in the quarters, a hat-trick against France and another brace Vs Sweden in the final on his way to becoming the youngest ever World Cup Winner.

Brazil repeated the trick in 1962 but did it without Pele who injured himself in the second game having looked ominously bright in the opening game. The 1966 was even worse for him. Pele was ruthlessly and cynically targeted by opposing defences meaning he missed the loss to Hungary and was never at his best for the two games he did play. Without their talisman the defending champions were eliminated in the first round.
He got his redemption in 1970 inspiring perhaps the greatest team of all time to a third world cup success. Pele at the peak of his powers won the player of the tournament and provided us with two of his most iconic moments. Had his lob from the half way line against the Czechs or his audacious dummy to round the Uruguayan goalie resulted in goals they surely would have been 2 of the greatest in World Cup history.

At one stage it was universally accepted that Pele was the greatest footballer of all time. In recent years it has almost become fashionable to dismiss his claim and achievements in favour of two little Argies. There are two sticks that are usually used to beat him which are contradictory for me. True he never tested himself in Europe. Having been named a ‘national treasure’ by the Brazilian Government and not being allowed to be ‘exported’ he spent his best years in his native land. However, we do have some clues as to how he would have fared had he moved to a big European club. His goals record and performances at international level leave me unequivocally convinced that he would have burned it up in any league. Also Santos (mainly to be able to afford his wages) regularly toured and faced the biggest clubs in Europe where Pele showed he was still on another level. The other criticism is that he was part of the greatest international team ever and had world class team mates around him which somehow should dilute his success. Many of these same team mates also predominantly played in Brazil yet this isn’t held against the likes of Garrincha, Rivelino, Tostao or Jairzinho who regularly had to play second fiddle to Pele and his Santos team. Nor is it held against one Lionel Messi who is a part of the greatest team I have ever seen. Like Messi now, Pele was the undoubted jewel in a beautiful crown.

For me, to be worthy of being called the greatest sports person of all time you need to tick several boxes. You must be supremely talented and have a strong argument to be the GOAT in your own sport. In my opinion you also have to have transcended your own sport and have made a widespread universal and lasting impact. With all due respect to the big hitters who have been voted through so far, most people have no idea who Bradman, Merckx etc are. While this may not be a popularity contest Pele’s notoriety and worldwide acclaim stemmed solely from his prodigious talent and countless achievements. He wasn’t a character, he wasn’t a loveable rogue. He did all his talking with his feet and his reputation is a product of his talent alone.

I have used a lot of words despite originally stating words could not do the great man justice. Still for me Pele is a treat best enjoyed visually. Watching him nutmeg two defenders and rounding the keeper or seeing him effortlessly flicking the ball over a defender’s head and volleying home is still jaw dropping even today. I will leave you with some quotes from his peers and contemporaries who say it a lot better than I ever could.

"I told myself before the game, 'he's made of skin and bones just like everyone else'. But I was wrong.”
Tarcisio Burgnich, the Italy defender who marked Pele in the Mexico 1970 Final

“The difficulty, the extraordinary, is not to score 1,000 goals like Pele – it’s to score one goal like Pele.”
Carlos Drummond de Andrade, Brazilian poet

“The greatest player in history was Di Stefano. I refuse to classify Pele as a player. He was above that.”
Ferenc Puskas

“After the fifth goal, even I wanted to cheer for him.”
Sigge Parling of Sweden on a 5-2 defeat by Brazil in the 1958 FIFA World Cup Final

“I arrived hoping to stop a great man, but I went away convinced I had been undone by someone who was not born on the same planet as the rest of us.”
Costa Pereira on Benfica’s 5-2 loss to Santos in the 1962 Intercontinental Cup in Lisbon

"Pele was the greatest – he was simply flawless. And off the pitch he is always smiling and upbeat. You never see him bad-tempered. He loves being Pele.”
Tostao
“When I saw Pele play, it made me feel I should hang up my boots.”
Just Fontaine

“Pele was one of the few who contradicted my theory: instead of 15 minutes of fame, he will have 15 centuries.”
Andy Warhol

“Pele was the only footballer who surpassed the boundaries of logic.”
Johan Cruyff

“His great secret was improvisation. Those things he did were in one moment. He had an extraordinary perception of the game.”
Carlos Alberto Torres

“I sometimes feel as though football was invented for this magical player.”
Sir Bobby Charlton

"Pele played football for 22 years, and in that time he did more to promote world friendship and fraternity than any other ambassador anywhere.”
J.B. Pinheiro, the Brazilian ambassador to the United Nations

Malcolm Allison: “How do you spell Pele?”
Pat Crerand: “Easy: G-O-D.”
British television commentators during Mexico 1970

Pelé is the greatest player of all time. He reigned supreme for 20 years. All the others – Diego Maradona, Johan Cruyff, Michel Platini – rank beneath him. There's no one to compare with Pelé.
—West Germany's 1974 FIFA World Cup-winning captain Franz Beckenbauer

The best player ever? Pelé. Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are both great players with specific qualities, but Pelé was better.
—Real Madrid legend Alfredo Di Stéfano

Garfield Sobers- Cricket-

"Before anyone exclaims ''Not another cricketer!'', let me begin with a few words from Harold Pinter, Nobel Prize winning playwright, dramatist and actor. Pinter said, ''I tend to think that cricket is the greatest thing that God ever created on earth - certainly greater than sex, although sex isn'too bad either.''

Now I don't set myself the near impossible task of convincing you of that but I do hope to show you that Garry Sobers was a great cricketing all rounder and sportsman who deserves your vote today. The cricket writer Lawrence Booth described him as ''a master of all trades and jack of none''. In my view, Sobers certainly merits at the least a place at the business end of this contest. Assuming he gets that far, one of his rivals will undoubtedly be Sir Donad Bradman. I make no claim either way today as to whom was the greatest cricketer - that hopefully will be a challenge to come that both will relish. Bradman himself referred to Sobers as ''the five in one cricketer''.

The Don's description referred to Sobers' prowess in batting, fielding and bowling in three distinct styles. This was further explained by the much respected writer, commentator and former Australian captain Richie Benaud: ''Sobers was a brilliant batsman, splendid fielder, particularly close to the wicket, and a bowler of extraordinary skill, whether bowling with the new ball, providing left-arm spin or over-the-wrist spin.'' Benaud added that Sobers was the greatest all-round cricketer the world has seen.''

Garry Sobers was born in Barbados in July 1936. There was perhaps a hint then that there was to be something unusual about him; at birth he had an extra finger on each hand, subsequently removed in early childhood. When Sobers was only five, his father died at sea in WWII when his ship was torpedoed by a U-boat. Despite this tragedy and little money, Sobers generally enjoyed his formative years and excelled in ball sports - football, basketball and especially cricket. At the age of just sixteen he was selected to play for Barbados against the touring India team as a spin bowler and took seven match wickets.

Just one year later Sobers made his Test debut at seventeen. It was the beginning of a Test career that was to last twenty years and bring him 8,032 runs, 235 wickets and 109 catches from 93 matches. With so much Test cricket played today, those stats do not reflect how far ahead of his peers Sobers was. To some extent, I will try and show that. However, it needs to be noted that personal averages were never of concern to Sobers. In the words of the late Tony Greig, ''In my experience, every single thing he did, he did in the interests of the game .... he never thought about averages in any aspect of his game.''

I do not have the time and you do not have the patience for me to list all Sobers' cricketing accomplishments, so just a few to give a flavour of his all round abilities:

* In 1958, he not only scored his maiden Test century against Pakistan in Kingston but went on to amass an undefeated 365 in an innings that lasted over ten hours. It broke the world record Test score of 364 set by England's Len Hutton in 1938. At 21 years and 216 days, he is the youngest player to break the individual scoring record in Tests and remains the youngest triple-centurion. When Sobers' highest individual Test score was finally broken thirty-six years later by Brian Lara, Sobers was at the ground in Antingua to witnesss it and was one of the first to congratulate him.

* Sobers scored another twenty-five centuries in his Test career. Three of these came in the Test series in England in 1966 where he enjoyed spectacular success and was dubbed ''King Cricket''. As the late Christopher Martin Jenkins confirmed, ''he dominated the '66 series''. In the five Tests Sobers scored 722 runs at an average in excess of 103. For me, his greatest batting display that summer was an uncharacteristic innings at Manchester where he reined in his natural attacking instincts to rescue his side from a perilous situation. It has been said on this thread that a true GOAT for all his artistry needs at times to ''guts it out''; this was when Sobers did just that. In their second innings, the West Indies were in desperate trouble at 95-5, leading by just 9 runs. With Sobers at the crease was his young and nervous cousin David Holford in only his second Test. After Holford had played and missed at his first two balls, Sobers went down the pitch and said words to him along the lines of, ''Relax, it's just a game. Now think of how we used to play back home ...''. From there, the tide started to turn. The partnership between Sobers and Holford remained unbroken with the West Indies being able to eventually declare and snatch a draw from the proverbial jaws of defeat. Sobers scored an undefeated 163. Whilst he clearly deserves credit for that, he deserves even greater praise for having coaxed and encouraged his partner to an undefeated maiden Test century of 105 not out. It was the only Test century of Holford's career and would not have possible without Sobers' calming presence.

* Due to the apartheid regime, South Africa were banned from Test cricket at the start of the 1970s. In place of the proposed tour to their country of South Africa in '71/'72, Australia played a Rest of the World side captained by Sobers. In the Third (unofficial) Test at Melbourne, Sobers played an innings of 254 which was described by Bradman as ''probably the greatest exhibition of batting ever seen in Australia''.

* Sobers will probably be best remembered for being the first batsman to hit six sixes in a over in first class cricket. This was achieved in August 1968 when he was captaining Nottinghamshire against Glamorgan in Swansea. The unfortunate bowler was Malcolm Nash. Typically of Sobers when interviewed by cricket writer Grahame Lloyd about the day, he did not criticise Nash's bowling nor talk of his own exploits but spoke of what was really important to him - the game: ''Malcolm tried to do the right thing - he was trying to get me out.'' This tally of 36 runs in an over broke a record of 34 runs that had stood for fifty-seven years and its impact at the time cannot be overestimated. I was on holiday then in the Scilly Isles. In this pre internet age, we had to rely far more on newpaper reports and I still recall one cricket fixated holidaymaker at our guest house going early to the quay to wait for the boat that brought the papers. Ok, the guy was probably a bit of a nutter but it was nonetheless definitely a national talking point. This world record was equalled in 1985 by Ravi Shastri playing for Bombay. However, in the words of Grahame Lloyd, ''It would be 17 years before another batsman would be similarly blessed by the cricketing gods but no subsequent hitting of six sixes in an over would ever be able to match the first one.''

* Sobers' Test average was a mighty impressive 57.78. As a bowler, his stats are not so stunning although in the words of Cricinfo ''he was more than handy with his ability to bowl various styles''. Whilst never taking 10 wickets in a Test match, he took 5 wickets in an innings on six occasions. Particular bowling highlights were at Headingley in 1966 when he returned figures of 5-41 and 3-39 to take West Indies to victory over England by an innings and at the Gabba two years later where his orthodox left-arm spin gave him a second innings haul of 6-73 and the West Indies victory over Australia by 125 runs.

* During his peak as a Test match bowler between January 1961 and December 1968, Sobers took 125 wickets in 33 Tests at an average just under 28. His overall Test bowling average was a shade above 34, still almost 24 less than his batting average. That is bordering statistical freakery. The only past or present player I'm aware of who is on a par is Jacques Kallis of South Africa. For all his strengths of dependability and determination, I don't place Kallis on such a high pedestal as Sobers. For me, Kallis has less of the natural match winning talent and entertaining flair that characterised so much of Sobers' game.

* Far more than Kallis and any other cricketers, Sobers was able to deliver his excellence with bat and ball in the same series. Scoring 300 runs and taking 20 wickets in a Test series is a very considerable achievement. It has only been achieved fifteen times in the entire history of Test cricket. Sobers managed it on three of those occasions, twice against England and once against India. The Australian all rounder Keith Miller did it twice but no one else has achieved it more than once. Ian Botham, Kapil Dev, Richard Hadlee and Shaun Pollock were among those who did it once each. The mighty Imran Khan never managed it and the same still applies to Jacques Kallis.

* As a close to the wicket fielder, Sobers made fielding an artform. For several years, Lance Gibbs was the world's leading Test match wicket taker. A fair number of those wickets were attributable to catches by Sobers. Gibbs readily acknowledged the part played by Sobers, ''His anticipation was incredible.'' In the words, somewhat over ridden with awe, of former West Indies Test batsman Charlie Davis, ''Garry could catch a blur you know. He used to be close at leg slip, at the back pocket of the batsmen, and catch blurs. Once a batsman flicked hard off Lance and Sobers just plucks his hand out and takes it so easily. The batsman couldn't believe it ... He could catch a bur. He is not normal. He is definitely not normal.''

* ''As a captain, Sobers was a mixed bag'' - Cricinfo. I think that is definitely true although I wouldn't condem him too heavily for this. Following initial captaincy success, he was roundly criticised for a declaration against England at Port-of-Spain which resulted in defeat for the West Indies. Whilst Sobers' declaration was overly generous to the away team, he was keen to keep the match alive and believed that gave his own side the best chance of victory. The former West Indies paceman Michael Holding has suggested that Sobers was too respectful towards the abilities of others in his team, ''Perhaps Sir Garfield Sobers thought others within the team had the ability of Sir Garfield Sobers.'' This is rather echoed by Charlie Davis, ''Garry was too modest. He didn't know how special he was. He expected us to bat like him. And catch like him. He thought all of us were like him you know.''

Anyway, that's more than enough from me. Just to finish off with a few comments from others who know much more.

''His stroke range was phenomenal. He had an array of shots and incredible energy. '' - Alan Davidson, Australia Test seam bowler.

''The best ever. You were in awe of him.'' - Cive Lloyd, West Indies batsman and captain.

''The complete all rounder''- Ian Botham, England all rounder and captain.

''The greatest born cricketer probably of them all.'' - Christopher Marin Jenkins, cricket writer.

''Whatever the level, he played it as it was just a game. He was relaxed in everything he did, whatever the situation.'' - Tony Cozier, West Indian cricket broadcaster and writer.

''Forget about all the other things, a great batsman and a great human being.'' - Ian Chappell, Australia batsman and captain.

''A genius. He could do everything. The complete cricketer.'' - Sunil Gavaskar, India captain and opening batsman.

A final comment from Tony Cozier which I consider particularly apt as we seek the ultimate GOAT: ''I have a firm belief that people are put here to do certain things. Like Pele to play football and Ali to box, Sobers was put here to play cricket and he played it magnificently.''

Aaagh!!!

Who matched these two up?
Probably the greatest cricketer ever against possibly the greatest footballer.
Couldn't Sobers have gone up against Ed Moses or someone?
With apologies to Guildford, I'm afraid I'm looking at voting for Pele, unless there's some pretty convincing argument for Sir Garry.

An extremely difficult draw for Sir Garfield St Aubrun Sobers but I hope the write up above (which you would be forgiven for missing as there is no separation from Pele's and heading in bold! ) shows he was always up for a hard game and has a case worth making.

As distinguished poster Shelsey added last time, Sobers was not the first great West Indian Indian cricketer (that being George Headley) but was almost certainly the first global West Indian sporting star.

Garry Sobers had X factor in abundance on the pitch and still has it off it today. A friend of mine met him by chance in Barbados a couple of years ago and described as '' welcoming, modest and awe inspiring''.

Chosen by an expert panel (Wisden) as one of the five cricketers of the twentieth century. In fact of the five, he and Sir Donald Bradman easily beat the other distinguished three (Shane Warne, Viv Richards and Sir Jack Hobbs).

When the ICC retrospectively chose the leading player for each calendar year of the twentieth century, Bradman was selected for ten particular years and Sobers for eight. No other player was chosen for more than three years.

Finally, a plea not to regard cricket as a minority game and all its players as a bunch of cucumber munchers. The game is now played in nearly all parts of the world. Two of the leading contributors to the 606 v2 cricket forum play and coach in France. Oh, and Sobers had just devoured a massive steak when my friend met him in a Barbados restaurant!

Ive had a look at Sobers bowling record and its good but its not jaw dropping amazing. Best bowling 6/73, 5 wickets 6 times. average of 34.
I think you can throw Imran Khans figures into the mix along with Kallis, he took his wickets at 22 and averaged nearly 38 with the bat, sure thats a good 20 runs less per innings than Sobers but how many runs was he saving his team by taking his wickets at 12 runs each cheaper ?
People seem to prefer batting all rounders to bowling all rounders but more often than not bowlers win matches.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Aaagh!!!

Who matched these two up?
Probably the greatest cricketer ever against possibly the greatest footballer.
Couldn't Sobers have gone up against Ed Moses or someone?
With apologies to Guildford, I'm afraid I'm looking at voting for Pele, unless there's some pretty convincing argument for Sir Garry.

Not sure I'd necessarily say Sobers was the greatest cricketer ever - how you compare his value as an all rounder with Bradman as the outstanding batsman is somewhat subjective, but I think I'd say Bradman was the more valuable of the two - Bradman's batting average was over 40 runs better than Sobers, so his contribution was essentially that of two (very good) batsmen, allowing Australia to pick an extra front line bowler if they wished. By comparison, Sobers was a very fine batsman and a competent Test level bowler. I know he was picked initially as a spin bowler, but my feeling is that his place in the West Indies side was always based around his batting with his bowling being a bonus - only for a few short spells in his career would his bowling have been sufficient to merit selection without the batting.

As for Pele, I've seen enough footage over the years to know that he was an outstandingly skillful player - maybe marginally less of a skilled dribbler than Maradona, but a better team man and a more rounded player (for example a very good header of the ball). Add to that there is very little controversy surrounding Pele (unlike the drug-addled cheating lunatic that Maradona was), and that he was known throughout the game for the respect he had for quality opponents, and for me he is the football GOAT and as such (i.e. being the best in probably the most global game) he has to be very close to the top of the overall list.

Of course the oddity is that of Pele's great moments, three of them he actually failed to score - the Banks save from his header, the shot from the halfway line (worth noting that he was playing with a ball about twice as heavy as those used now) and the one where he dummied the keeper before pulling his finish wide across the face.

Diggers - the amazing thing about Sobers' bowling is that he bowled three distinct styles. Left arm seam where could open the bowling or come on first change; orthodox left arm spin; and wrist spin (chinamen - highly unusual). This gave the West Indies team considerable variety and options.

I acknowleged in my original write up that his bowling stats were not so stunning as his batting but it is still incredibly impressive to end up with over 230 Test wickets and a batting average that exceeds your bowling average by around 24 runs. Furthermore, if you consider the peak of Sobers' bowling between January 1961 and December 1968 (a whole eight years so hardly a one off) he took 125 Test wickets (very considerable considering less Test cricket played then) and averaged below 27.

Finally, with regard to Kallis and Imran Khan, they have never dominated a Test series in the all round way that Sobers did. Neither has taken 20 wickets and scored 300 runs in a Test series. Sobers managed it three times. No one else has managed that as much and indeed only one other (Australia's Keith Miller) has even achieved it twice.

To be fair re the dominating a test series that does in part come down to your team. Look at the bowlers Kallis has played with, he was never likely to take that many wickets. Clearly Khan is a different kind of all rounder, it would make far more sense to look at his best bowling in a series...which Im sure would be far lower than say Sobers or Kallis, and then work out what a good batting contribution would be to add to that.
Hey, they are all brilliant players and I cant really seperate Kallis from Sobers personally, but Khan gave a completely different type of balance to a side, a brilliant strike bowler who also had the stats of a decent test batsman. Funnily enough I think Khan and Kallis are possibly two of the most underated players in history, especially Khan.

Sobers surely gets a few votes on how he played the game, much like we rave about Lara. This gives him the edge over Kallis.

Back to the debate. Pele edges it for me, purely on the fact that Football is more global.

Thing is with Imran, much as I rate him, is that his batting average was helped enrmously by a large proportion of not outs, due to him batting at 7 or lower for most of his career, and only really took of late in his career when he concentrated more on his batting than on his bowling.

Question for all cricket fans on here, as someone who dosn't fall the sport, I spent a day on here last month being told that Bradman was the greatest cricketer of all time, no one compared to his domination and he should win the whole thing given how far ahead of all the other cricketers he was ever, ever, ever*

Now I'm being told this guys the best ever

Simply, how does that work?






*May include some mild exageration, but not much

Bradman is the best batsman by a long way. Sobers is arguably the best allrounder.

Sobbers is a great allrounder- possibly the best.

bradman was only a batsman..

How do we define the best at cricket- one that can do both skills well, or one that can do one skill 80% better than the next best ever..


My concern is that i feel kallis is the better allrounder .. so i am stuck between a rock and a hard place..!!

Anyway- I went for sobbers over pele.. But by the skin of my teeth..

My two fav footballers are zidane and inesta.. next up messi, ronaldo and the great gazza(get well soon)

Dr House - I have been careful not to say that Sobers was superior to Bradman. I have deliberately left that open in the (probably naive) hope that could be debated when they came head to head. They certainly both brought brilliance to the game. As for dominance and entertainment, I would back Bradman on the former and Sobers on the latter.

I see nothing wrong in the above view as regards supporting Sobers in this debate. I doubt that that all football followers would regard Pele better than Maradonna or Messi.*
* Plus others just added by the wise and learned mystiroakey.

Bradman entertained as much as Sobers, maybe more?

As a football and cricket fan, I voted for my cricket GOAT time yesterday, so today I have to go for my football GOAT (though Danny Welbeck is well on track to overtake him)

Stella - Bradman was a magnificent batsman and that drew crowds in massive numbers.

I am not entering this debate to slate Bradman in the slightest but there was more variety to Sobers' game and, therefore for me anyway, greater entertainment.

Particularly thinking of Sobers' attacking approach to captaincy, his three unique bowling style and, of course, his six sixes in a over!

I wished I had seen Bradman play and would give your life for it. However, given that is not possible, I'm more than happy that I saw Sobers.

guildfordbat wrote:Stella - Bradman was a magnificent batsman and that drew crowds in massive numbers.

I am not entering this debate to slate Bradman in the slightest but there was more variety to Sobers' game and, therefore for me anyway, greater entertainment.

Particularly thinking of Sobers' attacking approach to captaincy, his three unique bowling style and, of course, his six sixes in a over!

I wished I had seen Bradman play and would give your life for it. However, given that is not possible, I'm more than happy that I saw Sobers.

Because he batted like Trumper but scored runs like nobody else.

Give MY life

Pele.

Has to be Pele, global icon.

Strange how all these votes for Jordan and James have come in the middle of the night. When I checked at midnight Robinson was 8 votes ahead. Please explain that to me?

Just has to be Pele (will cut that ready to paste in future rounds too). Probably my number one pick for overall GOAT.

Probably the reason I loved football as a kid. How many guys my age who ever kicked a ball around never had the wee commentator voice in their head saying "Pele" as they started to move with the ball?? The 1970 World Cup final was the first game I ever watched transfixed for the WHOLE 90 minutes, I was 7.

Not only was he supremely skilful but he was also a great ambassador both for his country and the game and dare I say it sport overall. To me he's the epitome of a true sporting icon and had the skills and achievements to back that up.

JAS wrote:

Not only was he supremely skilful but he was also a great ambassador both for his country and the game and dare I say it sport overall. To me he's the epitome of a true sporting icon and had the skills and achievements to back that up.

JAS - I don't dispute that for a moment but do genuinely believe it also applies to Sobers.

What a horrid, horrid draw! Meanwhile I continue to try and push water uphill ....

At the end of the day most not all would have Pele as the football GOAT whereas most...not all...would have Bradman as the cricket GOAT. Couple that with the fact that football is the global sport whereas cricket is limited to 10 nations all be it very popular in those areas and its really not that tough a decision.

Diggers - I follow your thinking about who might most likely be considered a GOAT of their own sport. However, I strongly dispute your assertion about cricket not being a global sport and limited to 10 nations. Whilst Test matches are confined to a relatively small number of countries, cricket is now played in most parts of the world and at international level. As per my opening post this morning, it might surprise many to know that there is considerable interest and participation in the sport in France, including from two eminent 606v2 cricket posters.

Call me a dumb ass but until this thread I did not realise Pele was a footballer. I had always thought he was the inventor of willy pills. I guess he was before my time.



Diggers

Football goat by some distance is messi, and I would have Platini, Zidane, Iniesta, Charlton and the Maradona above pele without even thinking about it. Pele had some good matches for a great brazil side in a couple of world cups and in the meantime played against semi pro's in a Brazilian league that was not even national.

PS I voted for the cricketer as I could not stand it if the over rated pele got any further. He seems a real arse hole to boot.

MCLaren - just to say that I woud prefer Sobers to suffer overwhelming defeat than have his case boosted by your vote.

You could learn a lot from the dignified conduct of both Sobers and Pele.

Couldn't have put my reasons any better JAS, especially the thought about the kid hearing in his head the commentator's voice saying "Pelé!"; quite evocative that. Horrible match-up but it's Pelé for me too.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Strange how all these votes for Jordan and James have come in the middle of the night. When I checked at midnight Robinson was 8 votes ahead. Please explain that to me?

Our American cousins finished work?

McLaren wrote:Call me a dumb ass...

If you insist!

McLaren wrote:Diggers

Football goat by some distance is messi, and I would have Platini, Zidane, Iniesta, Charlton and the Maradona above pele without even thinking about it. Pele had some good matches for a great brazil side in a couple of world cups and in the meantime played against semi pro's in a Brazilian league that was not even national.

PS I voted for the cricketer as I could not stand it if the over rated pele got any further. He seems a real arse hole to boot.

Without even thinking about? Therein lies your problem methinks.

I suspect this comes down to the field strength argument we have on the golf boards. Mess, for example, produces brilliance every week against the fittest and best trained generation of footballers ever.

Do any of you folks who need a pant change at the mention of Pele have any idea how he played in the Brazilian league between 58 and 70? Do you really think the sao paulo league was up to much?

McLaren wrote:I suspect this comes down to the field strength argument we have on the golf boards. Mess, for example, produces brilliance every week against the fittest and best trained generation of footballers ever.

Do any of you folks who need a pant change at the mention of Pele have any idea how he played in the Brazilian league between 58 and 70? Do you really think the sao paulo league was up to much?

But, even if the legue Pele played most of his football in was weak, that doesn't mean he would have struggled in a stronger one.
Surely the best way to judge any sportsman is to watch them play. No-one who watched Pele is in any doubt as to the fact that he was one of the best players ever, if not the best.

I tend to deal in evidence and not beliefs. You can believe he could have been great any league if you wish but without any evidence I will not even entertain the idea.

So there's no evidence that Messi would have been anywhere near as good playing with the old style ball, and without the protection afforded to players these days?

McLaren wrote:Do you really think the sao paulo league was up to much?

Well I'd confidently say that the World Cups were up to a fair bit, and Pelé's performances in them - 1958 and 1970 in particular - are proof enough of his right to be a giant in footballing and all sporting history. An argument can be made that he was the best player in two separate World Cups, twelve years apart - a virtual career today, and even more so back then.

Does there need to be?

Messi has proven he is the best player be some margin in his generation by continually being better than all the other players in the highest quality league in the world. It is of course often futile to compare players from different generation but Pele cannot say he was the best player in a top league at any point in his career.

Surely the Pele fans can at least accept that?

Think of messi playing in more top class matches as repeating an experiment to test how good a player he is. Pele can only use a handful of WC games for his data. A small number of observations is never a way to draw any meaningful results.

proof of Messi being great is 5 sigma, pele is nowhere near that.

Can Messi say he has ever performed at a World Cup?

...and your arrogance of assuming that any of the big European leagues of the 60s were infinitely better then the Brazilian League during a period when Brazil won 3 world cups out of 4 is based on???

The main reason Brazil never won in '66 was because Pele was cynically hacked to bits in the early part of the comp. As much as Messi is a delight to watch these days he is afforded FAR more protection from referees than Pele ever was.

McLaren wrote:I tend to deal in evidence and not beliefs. You can believe he could have been great any league if you wish but without any evidence I will not even entertain the idea.

You don't even mark your ball properly on the green Mac, you're rapidly filling the void left by the wumtastic Keizo. Not sure there's anybody takes your posts seriously these days.

Yes Jas, I am making the outlandish claim that modern day La Liga is of a better standard than the regional sao paulo league in which Pele played.

On the subject of football GOATS I saw this the other day -
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/world-of-sport/scored-most-important-goals-time-141343625.html
Muller was the goal poacher supreme, Jimmy Greaves with bells on basically. Not a great reult for Messi really.

Diggers if a 1958 world cup goal has a greater weighting than a current day champions league final goal then there is clearly an issue with the system.

Well clearly its also about goal scoring and doesnt mention assists or just general skill level. Also Messi is of course still playing, as is Ronaldo who is ahead of him in the current era in this particular table so no doubt they will both move up.
For whats its worth I thought Messi had a pretty good last world cup, he seemed to hit the wood work every game or the keeper made a great save, I certainly dont think he had a shocker.

Went for Sobers - because it would be the equivalent of Pele being one of the best strikers, defenders and goalkeepers all in one...

JoshSansom wrote:Went for Sobers - because it would be the equivalent of Pele being one of the best strikers, defenders and goalkeepers all in one...

Think Sir Garfield would have had to of kept wicket really to perform all the roles required in a football team, so maybe we can leave the goalkeeping part out. Still not bad though.

Worth remembering that Bradman himself referred to Sobers as ''the five in one cricketer''. A fitting reference to his brilliant batting, supreme fielding and extraordinary three distinct bowling styles.

McLaren wrote:Diggers if a 1958 world cup goal has a greater weighting than a current day champions league final goal then there is clearly an issue with the system.

Good gracious that makes me angry McLaren. 'Respect your history son' that was what My Old Man always used to say to me! I somehow think Pele's World Cup final goals will live a good deal longer in the minds of many than those of Muller and Drogba last May!

And I think that comment about the late basketball votes coming from our friends in america is true - it makes perfect sense with the timings and their basketball leanings! I can't imagine anyone would really fix a casual tournament like this! For the record I've gone Sobers - my old man always said he was a strapping lad who could handle both wood and ball, and that's enough to get my vote.

I've voted for Gary Sobers because my wife calls him Uncle Gary. Not really sure they are blood relations but 'tis what she always calls him.

Besides which I don't really like Pele because old people always try and convince you he was better than he probably was.

JoshS good analogy but pele to me is goat for transcendence of sporting, geographical, social tiers whilst remaining relatively politically quiet. My vote for overall should he remain in for the duration. Unless Gavin hasting gets a wild card of course...

While Sobers is one of the best allrounders to have played the game certainly not the best, he could have had a chance had he competed against a weaker norm not certainly against Pele.

Pele wins by 62-38 margin.

In his autobiography, Michael Atherton once commented on how it seems that even though track & field, as well as swim times get lowered and distances increased, power lifting records get smashed. But for some or other reason, every sport which cant be measured with a tape, scale or stopwatch actually goes backward in the eyes of fans. Just found it ineresting to note with this particular contest.

Initially I was going to vote for Pele, but a combination of the fact that his final goal tally is actually disputed and also the fact that if Sobers was a footballer he would have Cristiano Ronaldo's goalscoring (batting), but also a capable left, right, and centre back (bowling), and a class goalie (fielding), combined with Guardiola's tactical skills (captaincy).

Pele was a great footballer, maybe the greatest of all time, and strictly speaking a better athlete than Sobers, but cricket ask much more of its contestants than football. Razor-sharp reflexes. Tactics (Pele never HAD to decide to go 3-6-1 or swap the two fullbacks if it wasnt working.). Longevity (Five days is Long time on the field.).

Lastly, yesterdays results put a legitimate question mark on previous results. How many other match-offs have been compromised by people with multiple accounts? Tiger Woods also rawed back from the dead against Usain Bolt...
I would hope it was just the American section of 606 voting, but amyone who has to fraudulently manipulate the results of an online competion which has no Grand Prize, or any "Real world" weight behind it is a sad, sad human being.

very very tough on sobers this round, ive gone for pele