Lions Opinions Outside The Home Nations

I apologise in advance for yet another Lions thread and i'm becoming as weary of them as many others of you out there. In a different twist though i'd like to get the opinions of those outside of the Home Nations ONLY. Could you give us your opinions on possible selections, coaching and tactics?

So calling all of our Southern Hemisphere and Non-Lions compatriots, please give us your opinions!

Good idea...

I am looking forward to reading the responses.

Yes seems to be a non-runner at the moment though!

Chjw131 wrote:Yes seems to be a non-runner at the moment though!

Time zones mate. Keep bumping it up higher, the Kiwis then Ozzies will be off to work soon...!

[/quote]Time zones mate. Keep bumping it up higher, the Kiwis then Ozzies will be off to work soon...!
[/quote]

Work ? They don't work. Living down there is just a lifestyle choice.

Posted this on bluesman's thread:

I'll put my test and shadow player because to be honest I'll struggle in the forwards.:

1. Healy (another loosie) Corb...
2. Best (another loosie) Youngs
3. Cole A real tough one for me let alone finding the other one. Murray if there are no Sunday games.
4. Launchbury Gray
5. Parling Ryan
6. SOB Jones
7. Robshaw Tupiric
8. Beattie Faletau
9. Youngs Murray
10. Farrell Sexton
11. North Zebo
12. Barrit JD2
13 Tuilagi BOD
14. Halfpenny Ashton
15. Hogg Kearney

Feel free to rip that team to shreds. Think Australia are very good at exploiting team's weaknesses and too many centres and wingers are defensively frail to tour Down Under in my view. Halfpenny is a rock on defence but I think he can be a better attacking player on the wing. Hogg seems to be a bigger threat running the ball back and on the counter attack. Give Farrell the kicking duties and have Halfpenny as kicking cover. Stick to combinations as much as possible between key positions. Defence and players who can steal ball are vital but you must take the game to Australia rather than be conservative and look to crash it up in the forwards as Australia are more robust there than people often given them credit for.

Kia, nice work - appreciate your input, sir

No worries mate. I'll need to catch up with what Wallaby players are available and that might tweak the team a bit. Super 15 starts tomorrow but strangely only two sets of teams are playing. WTF?!!

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:No worries mate. I'll need to catch up with what Wallaby players are available and that might tweak the team a bit. Super 15 starts tomorrow but strangely only two sets of teams are playing. WTF?!!

I know, feicing daft scheduling that, how do you fancy your lot going this year?

My Crusaders are without Richie McCaw but that's a good opportunity for Todd. We have been there or thereabouts with Blackadder as coach but we haven't looked as convincing as in the past. That may well have to do with the other NZ franchises improving a lot and accumulating points in the NZ conference is no easy task which invariably makes a home semi final more difficult. I think the Highlanders are much stronger in their squad this year and it'll be interesting to see how the Blues go under JK and GH and whether the Chiefs can retain the same level of performance as last year.

From a Lions perspective, it remains to be seen whether this year will be as disruptive for the Wallabies as it was last year. Their stars like Beale, Pocock and JOC playing for weak sides and having to carry the burden for their teams. That all takes a toll on the body. Wales didn't take full advantage last year but they ran them very close. I think the Lions can be more dynamic and multi-dimensional so it's going to be very intriguing. Just like thinking what French team is going to turn up for the 3 test matches in NZ.

Good side Kia. I'd I would probably have Maitland in there for his Saders knowledge of the ozzie players and ground familiarity. His pace would be useful there.

As a punt I'd have twelvetrees as well. I liked his club form last couple of years and cant see why hes been overlooked till now. Uses his size well and has a go.

No Phillips is interesting. I like his extra loosie approach and hes a big game player.

Otherwise I'd go with the same side. Robshaw looks the obvious captain with Tuilagi likely to be preferred to BOD.

James Oconnor came through well last night- dreads and all.

Yeah I'd have maitland as well in the squad tman. But in the dirt trackers team and see the form of the wingers I picked in the first test. Phillips is a good player in the loose like you say but I think quick ball is what Farrell needs and the players outside him as well.

Do you guys from the SH think the Lions will win the series?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Yeah I'd have maitland as well in the squad tman. But in the dirt trackers team and see the form of the wingers I picked in the first test. Phillips is a good player in the loose like you say but I think quick ball is what Farrell needs and the players outside him as well.

Yes it depends on how Gatland wants to play them. If Pococks not in there Gats may like his chances with the 10 man approach, Farrell and Phillips keeping the ball in front of the pack, and its well known Deans has not been able to get a consistently performing pack.

This was my Lions matchday 22 a few months ago.

1 Healy
2 Best
3 Cole
4 Gray
5 O'Connell
6 Rennie
7 Robshaw
8 Denton
9 Phillips
10 Sexton
11 North
12 Roberts
13 Davies
14 Bowe
15 Kearney

Bench:
Jones
Ford
Ross
Ferris
Blair
Flood
Tuilagi


My opinion has changed slightly.

Positions I beleive are now hotly contested between at least two players and might not be my intial thoughts.


Half back

I no longer think Philips should be there, both English Halfbacks and Murray from Scotland for me have looked more unpredictable and with much sharper service from behind the ruck, even Laidlaw is currently better than Philips.


Flyhalf

Farrell has matured quite a bit, his goal kicking is reliable, his defence good and his option taking on attack has improved a lot. Between him and Sexton.

Fullback

Hogg and Kearney no doubt, if Sexton or Farrel is at 10 the Lions don't need the kicking boot of Halfpenny, skills wise Kearney is the best in the air, and Hogg superb on attack.

Wings.

I think North is a must, I would consider Brown rather than Visser who for me at this point still has a lot of work to do on defence. cuthbert still in with a shot.

Not sure I like Ashton but Foden could get in although I haven't seen him play for some time.

Centres , you either go with the combo of Barritt and Tuilagi, or O'Driscoll and Roberts, for me those two combo's will be most dangerous.


Eighthman.

I would consider to replace denton with the English 8, sorry can't remember his name.

Otherwise the rest more or less the same.


Can the Lions win?

Well if you read on Australian websites they aren't so confident, but then one good performance by one player somewhere and all of a sudden they are full of hope.

The Lions must realise that the Aussie pack is not so weak, the Lions still have the players to dominate Australia, but beware Pocock and Gill. i personally think Gill is better than Pocock as Pocock in my view is one dimensional and not an all round player.

You negate him at the breakdown, then he doesn't do much else.

In the backs I believe the Aussies have the talanet to run the Lions ragged on occasion, but the problem for Deans is who to play where and who is actually in form.

Between Beale, Cooper, O.Connor, Ioane, liliafano, Genia etc they have superbly talented players IF they are on form, IF they play in the right positions and IF they don't have brainfarts.

The Lions have a good chance to win this. i think Deans has a challenge to figure out his best 10, is it brilliant or flawed Cooper, Beale who at times can be truly inconsistent, O'Connor for me could be the man.

maestegmafia wrote:Do you guys from the SH think the Lions will win the series?

It will be tough Maes.
Judging by the summer tours last year the timing of the mid sxv break definitely gave the SH sides an advantage. Oz were injury ridden and SA were starting afresh- new coach and many players had retired from 2011. Yet they both managed to win comfortably. So the timing isnt in their (Lions) favour.

Both SH sides will be that much stronger and based on last two nights matches Pococck, Cooper, JOC, Beale, Ioane were looking good, albeit a little rusty. Genia needs to return.

In the few sightings of him Israel Folau I think will be added to the mix by then and if hes anything like the form he is now he could be another game breaker in the series if he learns as fast as he has been.

So for me the biggest factor are key injuries to the Ozzies via the first few rounds of the sxv. The Wales series was the only positive for Oz last year and theyll be looking to repeat it vs the Lions.

On the Lions side as usual its whether key combinations can work together. I dont think injuries will be an issue as theyve ample players in most positions at relatively the same level- looking at these posts I reckon Ive seen 4 or 5 players nominated in most positions and they dont have the sxv bustup matches immediately before the tour, but judging by last year that will go against them- match readiness.Theyd be better touring immediately after the 6N.

The rise of England and Wales sign of returning to some form is helping their chances. They will have a solid pack regardless of the selection variations. I'm just a bit concerned there are no genuine superstars this round, those that might fit that bill getting on or off form- BOD etc. Perhaps Tuilagi, Farrell Halfpenny. The loosies dont jump off the page so form and selection will be key there.

So for me the timing and injuries to key oz players will be the deciding factors. They dont have a lot of depth and will still need their key stars to break the games open- a la Genia last year.

Id say 2-1 to Oz at this point.

Cheers Bill and Taylor, great reading.

Sorry for mixing up my props.

Must be getting old.

Biltong wrote:Sorry for mixing up my props.

Must be getting old.

Easy mistake to make mate. It's your outsiders interest and perspective we all enjoy.

Tickets selling fast. Sold out in under 15 minutes. Let's hope that's just the 'pre-sales' batch. Surely, more seats will be released?

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/british--irish-lions-tickets-sell-out-within-minutes-20130218-2ema3.html

As for my view on the possible Lions team... I might just wait until after Week 5 of the 6N. Obviously there would be a few more England players in contention now given their last few wins but there is still a long way to go and we still may see certain players put their hand up in the coming weeks.

It's a very tough task for Gatland to get the right mix. I actually almost feel a little sympathetic towards you guys and I'm sure there may be one or two baffling (to some home nations fans) selections. But that's all part of the fun isn't it?

I agree LB- its not till around this point in the mix that the Lions concept looks a fragile proposal. When looking at the past sides they already have that 'together' look as a team but in reality a few weeks earlier they each wouldnt have known 2/3's of the side let alone played with them.

If we count the number of maybes from these posts alone we'd probably have a squad of 80 or so.

There are no '100'% dead cert selctions for the tests though from what I can see Best and Cole would be the closest.

So Gatlands job carries a lot of unknowns and he's got to make assumptions regarding combinations that other national coaches don't.

I think we need to remind ourselves of the task at hand given the sudden pooling together- especially these days when developing a national side can take years before it clicks- let alone weeks, and the individual levels are so much higher these days.

There will always be those that dont agree with the selections but no one would have done more analysis, been involved in discussion, and had more sleepless nights over this than Gatland.

Looks like its building nicely over there LB...Even though not a WCup year, doesnt get much better this year.

We're quiet achievers, Taylor. We tend to keep our traps shut and try and do the business on the field mostly... as you know.

It's only starting to gather steam in the last few weeks here. There's been the odd article in the sports section and a few ex-players have chipped in (discussing possible Lions line-ups - not ours!) and a cool ad on one of the sports channels. That's about it really.

Linebreaker wrote:We're quiet achievers, Taylor. We tend to keep our traps shut and try and do the business on the field mostly... as you know.

It's only starting to gather steam in the last few weeks here. There's been the odd article in the sports section and a few ex-players have chipped in (discussing possible Lions line-ups - not ours!) and a cool ad on one of the sports channels. That's about it really.

Thanks for the Ozzie input LB...

I thought it was quite surprising to see so little of the Lions chat in the Aussie media. You would think it didn't mean much to the australian public, but the article on ticket sales is a phenomenal acceptance of the Lions as a concept. Unless it is the British tourists that have bought all the tickets?

Might be like a home game for the Lions three tests if thats the case...!

Having OConnor back is a massive for Oz.
Even after virtually no matches all of last year his class shone through in the Force match.

Besides a 100% kicking record with 6 goals the try he set up from Beales pass was classy. He turned something average into something easy in the split second he had the ball. Summing the whole attack up in an instant he floats a perfectly timed miss pass over the top to the winger to canter in.

He could have had a go himself, looked inside or out but instinctively he knew what to do and did it with precision. Its the sort of thing you dont see a lot anywhere else. Thats why I put the Ozzie backs on a level above everyone else when theyre at theyre best and its no coincidence a Beale JOC linkup suddenly results in the simplest of tries where nothing looked certain.

By itself its nothing huge but after a year out of the game JOC is able to immediately stamp his class on the game and he's already showed that he could be a thorn in the Lions paw this year.

That hair style gave him even more confidence.... "because he's worth it!"

Trying to shake his pretty boy with the white teeth image methinks...a ratbag at heart? naaaa!

That was a quote from the Rachel Hunter shampoo ad above.

Yeah, definitely you may have a point there. Going to see him play on March 1st. Let's hope it all comes undone for him.

Linebreaker wrote:That was a quote from the Rachel Hunter shampoo ad above.

Yeah, definitely you may have a point there. Going to see him play on March 1st. Let's hope it all comes undone for him.

These days nothing thats sits on our youth's (youuuuuthzzzz... not utes...My cousin Vinny)...heads neither surprises me or stands out anymore.

The SMH article suggests that it's just the Aussie allocation that's sold out:

"An Australian Rugby Union spokesman said all of the ticket allocation had been exhausted for the Melbourne and Sydney Test matches, to be played on June 29 and July 6 respectively, by 9.15am.

He said Australian Rugby Union did not release information about how many tickets were available for purchase in Monday's public allocation."

Er. Hopefully.

The other interesting thing I read was that despite quite a formal challenge from Andy Irvine to do so, the Aussie franchises have no intention of playing their Wallabies during the dirttracker games.

If the Lions want more competitive games then perhaps we should look further afield to tests at home prior to the actual tour.

05 we played Argentina and perhaps we should do so again regularly. Argentina will gladly play the Lions as they will want the tour to eventually visit their own shores.

Its quite shameful how AUS or anyone else bans their top 30 players from playing the lions in the lead up matches.
The strength in depth in AUS esp. in the forwards is very poor... take out the core test players and the lions should win every game by 50 points.

Looking at the tour even if the key Wallabies dont play them the Lions arent going to win every game. Its an ambitious tour playing all 5 sxv sides.

With the sxv- which started last week for Oz-and doesnt finish till September, the 3 Lions tests and the Rugby Championship I can understand the W's not playing the non test sides.

Last year the W's were hit far harder than any other country with their topline players out most of the year.

In fact I wouldnt be surprised if the franchises rested key non Wallabies as well due to the sxv- particularly those who have reasonable chances of making the playoffs which may or may not be obvious in June. The Force play the Lions on Weds 5 June and the Warratahs on the Sunday 9th June so its unlikely the same side will front both matches.

Exactly Taylorman.

Also the Lions will be mostly fielding their 22-35 players for those other matches with maybe a few first teamers sprinkled in... so why wouldn't we also rest our Wallabies? It would be silly to do otherwise and with all respect to Andy Irvine - he can stick his 'formal challenge' back in it's box.

The Super XV sides should hold their own and could possibly defeat a Lions 2nd XV. The only possible blowout might be against the combined NSW-Qld side in Newcastle... but it wouldn't surprise me if they were very competitive too.

Taylorman... do you actually rate the AUS teams that highly... take out say the top 30 players in AUS and I see them struggling.

Perhaps the brumbies may be a tough test as a lot of the test squad comes from the Reds and the Waratahs at the moment who could lose up to 12 players.. i.e. their entire team.

In terms of the last tour the Lions didn't lose a single dirt tracker game (6 wins and 1 draw) and I would say the strength in depth was better in SA then it was in AUS.

Its still a shame as I'd love to see all 5 sxv sides in full flight at this but the scheduling and sheer number of big matches means they have to be managed- I believe Oz are still paying for playing every player in the 2011 3N- the injuries started in the WCup soonafter and havnt stopped since.

Would the top Heineken cup sides play all their internationals against a second Oz touring side in the middle of the tournament? I doubt it.

Giving credit to the European club sides they've often mixed up their teams with a zest of experience & youth.. i.e. Leicester and Saracens beating SA in 2009.

In fact Saracens played near their first XV.

and they didn't get any mutual benefits of 40000 touring Aussies buying tickets and putting money into the economy either.

Dont know about 2009- I see they dint play the Stormers or the Bulls themselves- the two sxv finalsts that year but did all the Boks turn out for those sides that did play them in the non tests?

They played WP (which is the Stormers anyhow).... I was at the game in fact, total washout but yeah all the boks were withdrawn.

Didn't play the bulls for a bizarre reason.. the one side at the time which had the strength in depth to actually challenge the Lions with a 2nd team.

More the reason not to play then, the series and the Bulls winning...

My point is not so much backing the Oz sides, its more the ability of the Lions clicking as a unit but for sure if the no.1s dont play the Lions will pervail in most, especially if you have the' mid week side want to prove to the test side they should be there' thing going on. All Deans cares at all about is the tests.

Take out the top 30 Lions players and they would struggle more, fa0019.

Our depth is often underestimated and is probably at its historic best as we type.

The one thing I don't like about the arrangement is that its all on the 3N terms and none on the Lions terms.
The tours are massive boosters to the economy... the 05 lions tour was the largest sporting event ever hosted in NZ bar the RWC11.

Take that away and it would have impacts.... not just the loss of a great rugby tradition for all countries involved (the home nations, SA, NZ & AUS).

The 3N sides want the benefits but aren't willing to put out a level playing field. I recall the lions in 09 actually had a signed contract from SARU stating the best test players would be available for the club matches.... yet they just laughed in the Lions faces.... what were they going to do, force coaches to play specific players... that would never hold up and it didn't. It wasn't worth the paper it was written on.

I think you're making it sound as though the arrangements are stacked against the Lions wherever they tour. Maybe it's more a case of them not getting everything their way when visiting foreign shores. So a balance obviously needs to be struck between host and visitor.

I'm sure all of the 3N hosts have been very accommodating (past and present) and it will continue to be that way. Of course these tours are always massive boosts to our economies... is there something wrong with that?

It will be a cracking series regardless. No need to panic just yet!

Linebreaker

In the last tour the sharks came 6th in the SR season ahead of all AUS sides bar the Waratahs. When they faced the lions they lost 7 boks (Steyn, Pienaar, Jacobs, Pietersen, Beast, Bismarck & Smit) but still managed to field Daniel, Deysel Muller, Sykes, Jannie DP, Kockott & Terblanche in their side... the lions beat them by 30 points.

Had they all played it would have been a very close game.... given they didn't it was a walk over.

Not trying to show disrespect to your side Linebreaker but the difference between test players and club players is massive.. for any country.

However there may also be several 'unproven' (or with few caps against Australia) Test players from the Home Nations selected for the Lions who have never played on our shores and who would certainly be struggling to compete for a regular Super XV spot, let alone a Wallaby jersey.

No disrespect either.

I think the balance we had in 2005 was ok (we played the Maoris and our NPC- not sxv ) sides against the Lions.

Had we played the sxv sides there would likely have been more losses but who knows.

Its just the nature of a crowded agenda and risk of injuries and even though the NH only have the one thing going on at the time, the SH sides are in the thick of it all, and dirt tracker tour matches just arent going to be prioritised to the top- particularly when the Lions usually play their second sides themselves.

A Superxv final or title is going to do more for ones CV than a mid week Lions win.

In terms of an AUS jersey in full agreement... I think at full form a single AB would struggle to get into a backline of Genia, Cooper, Ioane, Barnes, Ashley-Cooper, O'Connor and Beale.

fa0019 wrote:In terms of an AUS jersey in full agreement... I think at full form a single AB would struggle to get into a backline of Genia, Cooper, Ioane, Barnes, Ashley-Cooper, O'Connor and Beale.

Probably agree with that. I'd say DC and Dagg- who I think has surpassed Beale for now- and perhaps Smith instead of AAC but none of the rest. Thats a classy list alright.

One of my favourite rugby experiences was watching that Wellington match in a crowded sports bar in Budapest. (Dohany Utca)
There was only a kiwi couple there and myself - "the half-neutral"... the rest was all red Lions shirts.

They opened up at 8:50am and I've never seen so many tables with bacon & eggs + beer at that hour. After the first try... the place erupted.

Mind you, it got more and more silent as the match progressed. Even the Hungarian bar maids nearly dropped their trays in awe of Carter. As I was leaving I had a nice chat with the NZ couple. They were trying not to smile for fear of their lives! Me too.

I think we take DC a little for granted. Or perhaps I do. I didnt think as much from his effort as everyone else seemed to. A lot of things clicked for him and he seemed to get every bounce of the ball but classy players get that. He did a lot of good things that day for sure.

Budapest? geeez, what on earth was on there LB?

Visiting relations, Taylor. Dad's home town.

You're very kind above - DC, Dagg and Conrad Smith for me. Possibly even Aaron Smith. Think he's an explosive player like Genia too.

Excellent i'm glad this thread has got going a bit more, really interesting to read some external perspectives on the Lions. Whilst Home Nations debates can be great they can break down into squabbling!

On the ancillary games, yes it would be nice to see the sides with all their Wallaby contingent but I really don't think we can blame anyone for preserving their Test team players. As long as we don't get a repeat of some of the poor 'discipline' of some teams I still think they'll be cracking games.