Should the Lions only have a home nations coach?

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/steve-hansen-linked-with-british-and-irish-lions-job/

After reading the above I was quite surprised. Why would the lions be coached by an All Blacks coach who has no affiliation with NH rugby? Of course he would be a great coach to have, but isn’t that a bit pointless in the context of the lions? Isn’t it more exciting to have a team who is being lead by a head coach from one of the home nations? Someone who knows the NH players and been a part of 6N campaigns?

Problem with using a home nations coach is the allegations of favoritism. Also, if they are a serving home nation coach, you have issues when returning to coach the said home nation, if you overlooked your players for others. Gatland was lucky, as he had a successful track record with Wales first, so players not picked did question or undermine him. Graham Henry, years ago, wasn't so lucky and just couldn't return to the Welsh job.

Any home nation coach taking the role, needs to be confident that he has the backing of his nations players or be at the end of his tenure and not going back.

Have to say, surprised Hansen is linked with the job and I wouldn't want to see him get it. Wasn't impressed with him at Wales if I'm honest. Ok, has excellent record with All Blacks, but you have to question is that due to him being a great coach or just the fact he has such a good team he has an armchair ride.

By the way, I find it difficult to answer this poll with an opinion, as drawn between the two Nos...

I think they need an affiliation to one of teams involved but not in a current capacity. Too much baggage and bias comes with that.

bsando wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/steve-hansen-linked-with-british-and-irish-lions-job/

After reading the above I was quite surprised. Why would the lions be coached by an All Blacks coach who has no affiliation with NH rugby? Of course he would be a great coach to have, but isn’t that a bit pointless in the context of the lions? Isn’t it more exciting to have a team who is being lead by a head coach from one of the home nations? Someone who knows the NH players and been a part of 6N campaigns?

To be honest picking a "home nations" coach comes with its own problems. Gatland wasn't exactly the most impartial coach selecting some Welsh duds that a neutral coach wouldn't have dreamt of selecting.

That said someone like Hansen has a dreadful 6 nations record so might not be a great alternative.

Joe Schmidt would be a good choice if he is still unemployed.

Agree with No9 completely. Very difficult for any coach to replicate what Gatland has done for the Lions without seriously rubbing a few people/players/or even countries up the wrong way. Very, very hard. If they come from outside the 4 Home Nations coaches, that's a disadvantage from a coaching/experience point of view. If they're trying to include al 4 nations in a 'pick your best players first' position, that's a weakness from a tactical/familiarity/units point of view.

Gatland took his Welsh gameplan to the Lions with a few tweaks, brought Andy Farrell's defensive coaching in (still very similar) and used the biggest and best players he could find to make it work. And unless you're Sean O'Brien, I'm fairly certain most people would consider a win in Australia and a draw in NZ 'working', if not perfect.

Also, not mentioned above, is the way losing a sitting home nations coach absolutely ruins a season for that country. Yes, Wales did alright in 2013...with Gatland's help...but it's not just the lead up, it's also the aftermath, the planning, the progression and focus etc. It has some benefits, like giving Howley/McBryde experience, but ultimately Gatland is in a unique position in that he's effectively guaranteed the Wales job for as long as he wants it. He's also been in it a long, long time. Most international coaches will last 4 years - give or take 1 or 2 either side of that. Being without your Head Coach for the 9 months before a Lions tour, and then a few months after it with the knock on effects...not sure many unions would accept that in this day and age.

Which means I don't think the Lions will have as nearly as much success in the future. It'll be a coach from outside the 4 nations' head coaches, which may work, or may not. If it doesn't, we may find the Lions' position in the world game under threat once again.

Collapse2005 wrote:To be honest picking a "home nations" coach comes with its own problems. Gatland wasn't exactly the most impartial coach selecting some Welsh duds that a neutral coach wouldn't have dreamt of selecting..

Just out of interest, who do you mean here? Other than the 'geography 6' which we all know about?

Genuine question, because a player like Cuthbert - obviously a donkey, yet he played a massive part in winning the first Lions test in Australia with a great score. Lydiate went in 2013 despite long term injury and being a limited player - captained a midweek team and had a great tour.

What Gatland does well is upset perceptions; on paper/in terms of overall skillset, there were some dubious Welsh players in the Lions squads. But duds? I'm really not so sure. Even the likes of Cory Hill and Gareth Davies - part of the geography 6 - stand a good chance of making the SA tour in 2021.

Jeez man, we're at the lions banter already?

When is the "If the match was played on Saturday, who would be you Lions XXIII" ?

miaow wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:To be honest picking a "home nations" coach comes with its own problems. Gatland wasn't exactly the most impartial coach selecting some Welsh duds that a neutral coach wouldn't have dreamt of selecting..

Just out of interest, who do you mean here? Other than the 'geography 6' which we all know about?

Genuine question, because a player like Cuthbert - obviously a donkey, yet he played a massive part in winning the first Lions test in Australia with a great score. Lydiate went in 2013 despite long term injury and being a limited player - captained a midweek team and had a great tour.

What Gatland does well is upset perceptions; on paper/in terms of overall skillset, there were some dubious Welsh players in the Lions squads. But duds? I'm really not so sure. Even the likes of Cory Hill and Gareth Davies - part of the geography 6 - stand a good chance of making the SA tour in 2021.

The geography 6 and Shane Williams a few years past his sell by date on the Aussie tour for his charity testimonial.

Lydiate was well worth his Lions caps in my view and Cuthbert wasn't the worst Lion of all time.

tigertattie wrote:Jeez man, we're at the lions banter already?

When is the "If the match was played on Saturday, who would be you Lions XXIII" ?

Dear God, man! Don’t tempt someone!

My answer to the OP:

I personally don’t think the Lions coach needs to be ‘B&I’ by birth but I do think it’s important that they have coached one of the nations in the recent past. I do understand that it becomes contentious when they are a current coach of a 6N side but personally I have no issue with that. So if Schmidt or Eddie J or Townsend get the next gig while still in charge of their respective sides I’ll be happy with that, as long as they’re good coaches in good form.

I wouldn’t like a coach from outside, with no experience of the nations or ties to them, to be parachuted in. And I include Steve Hansen in that even though he’s coached Wales many moons ago. There needs to be a recent tie to B&I, for me. So coaching in the 6N, coaching a B&I club side, ex-Lion now coaching, etc. Vern Cotter as a ‘recent past’ might be a good example of something I’m happy with.

tigertattie wrote:Jeez man, we're at the lions banter already?

When is the "If the match was played on Saturday, who would be you Lions XXIII" ?

It always says "If the match was played on Saturday..."

And then starts:

1. Mako Vunipola (if fit)

I don't like the idea of an home nations coach because he could be biased to his home nation....I am not sure though how you could pick a coach without that coach being involved in some way with the player/s being selected for the tour.

Collapse2005 wrote:

miaow wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:To be honest picking a "home nations" coach comes with its own problems. Gatland wasn't exactly the most impartial coach selecting some Welsh duds that a neutral coach wouldn't have dreamt of selecting..

Just out of interest, who do you mean here? Other than the 'geography 6' which we all know about?

Genuine question, because a player like Cuthbert - obviously a donkey, yet he played a massive part in winning the first Lions test in Australia with a great score. Lydiate went in 2013 despite long term injury and being a limited player - captained a midweek team and had a great tour.

What Gatland does well is upset perceptions; on paper/in terms of overall skillset, there were some dubious Welsh players in the Lions squads. But duds? I'm really not so sure. Even the likes of Cory Hill and Gareth Davies - part of the geography 6 - stand a good chance of making the SA tour in 2021.

The geography 6 and Shane Williams a few years past his sell by date on the Aussie tour for his charity testimonial.

Lydiate was well worth his Lions caps in my view and Cuthbert wasn't the worst Lion of all time.

Yeah, no complaint with those. None of them picked on merit - but at that stage, Gatland's focus was on the 23-28 players who would play the test matches. Can debate the merits of that, but he chose ease over a 'better' player. The midweek games were an inconvenience at that stage. Was it worth the media and fan ire? Hard to tell, but that's his way.

tigertattie wrote:Jeez man, we're at the lions banter already?

When is the "If the match was played on Saturday, who would be you Lions XXIII" ?

It’s only 2 years away! These things need to be discussed ASAP!

Out of interest, who do people think is a likely coach for the Lions? Realistically? Obviously a long way away - but if not Gatland...who?

Well bias towards your own team is a must. When youve trusted certain players and theyve gone into the metaphoric ‘trenches’ for you you have a duty to select that player if the only argument against is that it will be seen as biased.

Thats why players should get the benefit of the doubt or you wouldnt be bringing all your experience and gut feel into the position.

You certainly dont want a coach that says Ill have ten of them, seven of them, four of them to reflect some ranking.

Coaches are picked to make the tough choices and must use every available learning, gut feel, experience to make them.

Thats seems to be what Gats did, especially in that oz third test.

Would Connor O'Shea fit the bill?

He's a home nations nationality, while not coaching any of the contributing teams, so shouldn't have any vested interests.

He's a dynamic and progressive coach and very good with the media. Plus he coaches Italy, so I assume he's pretty good at working in situations with the odds against him and against adversity.

Coaches I'd pick to pick a Lions XXIII two years ahead of the event:

Connor O'Shea
Vern Cotter
Mark McCall
Rob Baxter
Richard Cockerill (though I'd not want him to leave Edinburgh for the role)

I'd also have had Warren Gatland now that he's leaving Wales, but as he's had it twice, he's had his shot(s)

Lions tour to SA is my favourite of the three, maybe its just because its the first one I can vaguely remember in 97, and then the 2009 tour was the last where as a fan it felt like everyone was pulling together and there was little of the arguments that the previous two tours have attracted

In short, whoever the coach is better not feck it up

Hmm not convinced by Conor O'Shea myself. Id rather Gregor Townsend personally plus Townsend has some experience playing in SA.

To be honest, I think having a coach who has not been (or at least is not, at the time of being appointed) coach of one of the home nations is possibly 'preferable', as it removes the perception of bias in selection, and is likely to mean all four nations can fully get behind the team. Yes, I know there will still be disagreements with the selection, with some supporters preferring players from their nation over those of other nations, but it does at least remove the possibility of bias as an accusation for the selection. Just look at the abuse Gatland received for selecting JD over O'Driscal in the final test 2013... and we know how that went.

But, having said that, I do like the tradition that the coach should be one who has coached one of the home nations- as it keeps the Lions 'in house' as it were... If only we rugby fans weren't so biased/ could appreciate that a coach's opinion is probably better informed than our own...

Surely the coach has to be reasonably successful too??? No point chucking in a coach just to tick a box when his record at international level is not very good?!

One thing, there is NO WAY, Eddie Jones will/should get the job, as seeing the current and past comments made by current internationals they dont show they have an ounce of respect for him. I think if he was given the job, it would be a Lions tour like the Sir Clive's where the camp is split into England and the rest.

Absolutely. Being a successful international coach should be the first criteria. The rest comes after that.

It is really astounding that anyone still thinks the Lion's 'coach' does anything other than select.
Gatland should simply get the job in perpetuity as he doesn't care about the criticism. He knows he has to pick a majority from one team to stand any chance and it may as well be Wales because that is what he knows. In order to win bias is not only OK but a prerequisite.

The Great Aukster wrote:It is really astounding that anyone still thinks the Lion's 'coach'  does anything other than select.
Gatland should simply get the job in perpetuity as he doesn't care about the criticism. He knows he has to pick a majority from one team to stand any chance and it may as well be Wales because that is what he knows. In order to win bias is not only OK but a prerequisite.

Except he selected 15 Englishmen and 11 Welshmen for the initial squad, so are you saying his bias was towards England?

How do you define a home nations coach?
If Gatland was a home nations player he'd have qualified 9 times over on residency grounds. In a thirty year coaching career he's spent two years coaching in New Zealand. He's coached Wales and Ireland, he's also coached in England. Funnily enough he's never coached in Scotland, might be why you could barely pick a sevens team from Scottish players he's picked.
I've never been able to fully get behind a Gatland Lions team (don't get me wrong I supported them as much as I could and was always desperate to win), I've always felt his true allegiance was with Wales and that showed in some of his selections. But then in 2013 and 2017 Wales had some of the best players in the world and the Welsh Rugby Union have been his principal employers. Rugby is also an emotional game, he obviously has an emotional connection to the Welsh players and trusts them unconditionally so it is natural in many ways. I suppose the primary reason is I'm a bitter Scotsman. But let's not overlook the fact that in 2005 the Lions were at their lowest ebb. He was a big part of the Lions rehabilitation in 2009, delivered the first win in nearly twenty years and produced a stunning performance against possibly the best ever rugby team in 2017.
In terms of British coaches currently in the game there's only two international coaches; Townsend and O'Shea. They coach the teams likely to finish 5th and 6th in the Six Nations. Left in the Champions Cup it's Lancaster, Cockerill, MacFarland and McCall. Only one of them has experience being an international coach. He is also incidentally the only British coach I believe should be in the frame to coach the Lions the next time around. Lancaster has coached international teams, places a great emphasis on getting the right culture and has worked wonders with Leinster. He has a foot in the English and Irish camp, and has (admittedly further back) Scottish connections. So he has a 'pan-Lions' appeal in a way few British coaches can. I'd attempt to get Schmidt in as backs coach.

Can’t disagree with any of that you Bitter Scotsman

The Oracle wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:It is really astounding that anyone still thinks the Lion's 'coach'  does anything other than select.
Gatland should simply get the job in perpetuity as he doesn't care about the criticism. He knows he has to pick a majority from one team to stand any chance and it may as well be Wales because that is what he knows. In order to win bias is not only OK but a prerequisite.

Except he selected 15 Englishmen and 11 Welshmen for the initial squad, so are you saying his bias was towards England?

Absolutely right Oracle, I shouldn't have used the word majority - apologies.

The point remains though that whomever is put in charge of the Lions has no time to coach them anything but the very basics. Therefore what he has to do is be a Selector and select groups of players that already know how to play as a team - and he may as well pick those players with which he is familiar. Bias is probably the wrong word anyway as it implies that someone is picking their mates, rather than adopting a pragmatic approach to team selection.

Yeah, agree with that Aukster. You are right about bias. It is bias, but not necessarily in the negative way that bias is usually seen (well, it can be but I don’t think it is as much as people think when talking about Lions selection). Coaching is inherently biased, or perhaps subjective would be a better term. As soon as you pick a head coach, I.e. one man, then you opening yourself up to the subjectivities that go with that. And a coach will base things on his past experience and of course that means players that the coach already knows, game plans that he’s comfortable with and have brought him success (even if fans don’t like that style of play), assistant coaches he knows can do what he wants to do rather than having to take time to get to know new coaches and their methods and trying to get them to do what he wants them to do in a very short time, etc. I’m pretty sure Gatland chose players last time based on game plan - so he was thinking ‘right, for this part of the game I want a big ball carrying guy who does x, y and z’. And then picked perhaps an Englishman or Welshman he thought could do that, and perhaps left out a Scottish player who he thought wasn’t as good in that role. Maybe.

Anyway, I think there are two unbiased or objective ways to do it I, and neither is that appealing:

1) pick an independent coach with no ties to the players.  But this might mean someone without international experience or someone ‘alien’ to the B&I teams and ‘culture’, or both. Would this be at the risk of success though, just to appease disgruntled fans?

2) to have a B&I poll of the general public where they vote on each position. But even that is difficult given the population differences, so it’s likely the team would be all English given the numbers of potential voters available! Plus the end result would be a group of players just thrust on a coach and told to work with them, regardless of that coach’s philosophy on the game, game plan, and the type of players he feels would be best to execute it. Would be a tough sell for top coaches, who would want to call the shots probably.

Both of those I think would be silly (especially no.2). So for me the best way is to allow a coach to select who he wants and then the fans either get behind it or do not, but just let the coach get on with it. One caveat is that I would not allow the same head coach to lead successive tours. At least then we put up with the subjectivity/bias of one coach (let’s say Gatland) and then get to move on the the bias of someone else next time (let’s say Schmidt), so things might even out a bit. There’s rumours Gats might get it again next time, so that would be 3 on the bounce as head coach and 1 more tour as assistant coach. That’s too much for me. Saying that, the problem with rotating is that perhaps we’re again trying to tick boxes and end up putting in a coach just for the sake of rotation and we end up with someone who hasn’t been that great at international level. But I think a fresh start every 4 years would be the fairest thing. I also think that regardless of head coach, and I know this is the opposite of what I said earlier about the head coach picking back room staff he already knows and trusts, but I think it would be good for the tour and the concept (I know you dislike the Lions as a concept generally Aukster!) that at least 1 coach from each of the 4 nations goes along as assistant. I feel that’s really important from a representation point of view and would be the only ‘box ticking’ exercise I would be happy with for the Lions.

You are correct that I dislike the modern marketing juggernaut that the Lions has become. The concept itself damages the constituent teams but there are enough fans who don't care about that so while there is a horse to flog it isn't going away anytime soon.

So to make the best of a bad job, major on the things where the concept is weakest. Throwing together a bunch of rival players into a fantasy scratch team is always going to be challenging. There is no chance to get anything settled or practised. However one thing that can be consistent is the coaching set-up.
Gatland no doubt learned from his mistakes in Australia and brought that knowledge to bear in New Zealand. He will be even better qualified to lead the team in South Africa. He knows how to pick pods of players and appoint sub leaders among the players who are the real coaches of the team. That knowledge has been hard won and shouldn't just be thrown out for political correctness. Of course Gatland needs a succession plan and just as he was an assistant in 2009, so he should have an 'assistant' in 2021 who can begin their reign in 2025 with the 'easiest' start of the three team cycle in Australia.

That 'Head Coach designate' should be chosen based on their acceptance of the formula that Gatland has hit upon as it is the one that stands the best chance of success. Success will naturally add to the longevity of the Lions concept, so it is something that I should be vehemently opposed to, but as already mentioned there's too much money involved for the Lions to be scrapped. Continuity in the coaching team will hopefully lessen some of the damage caused to the four constituent nations, so in short I'd stick with Gatland for 2021 and appoint an assistant from one of the nations with a view to promoting him to head for the next three tours.