With everyone fit, could this be the best England back 5 in the pack?

4. Launchbury
5. Croft
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

This has never occurred to me before, and I'm a big fan of Parling's but could it be that with Croft back to fitness and form, we could gain his mobility, attacking threat and cover tackling without really losing anything in terms of line out jumping, pushing in the scrum or physicality, if he replaced Parling at 5?

Or am I underestimating Parling's importance in calling the lineout?

Possibly but I think your underestimating Parlings pushing in the scrum as well. You would lose about a stone and a half in weight.

When was the last time Croft played 5??

I think our best back 5 would be:

4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

But until one of the locks starts to run the line Im not sure it would work

Lawes seems to see himself as more of a 6 than a lock.

Parling has been one of your best forwards, don't leave him out. Robshaw is your best 7 (forget the nonsense about fatty Armitage, he only looks good playing with the biggest pack in Europe). Morgan looks to be your best 8 at the moment. As for 6 let Wood, Lawes, Haskell and Croft (when fit) fight it out. You are lucky to have such depth in the back row.

I don't know if Lawes sees himself as more suited to lock - in the interview I saw he was just saying that it's a more enjoyable position to play.

Wood's performances at 6 against SA, NZ and SCO were a step up from anything we've seen from Croft, Haskell, Johnson etc in recent years - up there with Ferris and Lydiate's performances last season - so he's nailed on for now.

Agree, Wood has been outstanding and is for me, the definite starter at 6. He's played himself into serious contention for the Lions too.

I'm not a fan of Croft at lock at all really. Think he's far more effective at 6, but we'll just have to see how he gets on in the next few games for Tigers.

Launchbury and Parling are the starting lock pairing, definitely.

Lawes and Haskell off the bench are superb sub options. Much like opposition won't like having Care coming onto the field at the 60 minute mark because of his speed, they won't like seeing a big-hitting flank in the shape of Lawes either. His defensive work against Ireland was very good (bar the one silly challenge), and his counter-rucking against Scotland was very good.

When was the last time Croft played 5??

Not sure, but he has done it a fair few times, and played well. He's also said he sees himself converting to second row as he gets older and bulks up/ slows down a bit.

Possibly but I think your underestimating Parlings pushing in the scrum as well. You would lose about a stone and a half in weight.

Yes, you're probably right. The Launchbury/Parling combo is already lacking an "enforcer" (hate that term!). I still think it could be worth trying that back 5 out at some point though. There's a lot of mobility there.

Don't understand the thinking behind Croft as a lock either - sure, he's an effective lineout operator, but other than that his assets are of an open field ball carrier, and his (relative) weaknesses are a lack of power and not getting busy enough at the breakdown. Surely any international class lock is picked largely for their power and breakdown work, not for how they can run the length of the field if they find themselves in the outside centre channel.

Croft for me is a 6 or nothing at the moment (although I have always wondered why Leicester haven't tried him out at 8, where he'd get more opportunities to run the ball in broken play). Sure, he can step in and cover lock in an emergency, but that's the only reason I'd put him there.

At the moment, Parling and Launchbury are our best options at lock, with the Wood-Robshaw-Morgan line-up being our best balanced back row. Lawes and Haskell on the bench is very strong, with the likes of Croft and Kvesic not far away if needed.

I think once Kvesic gets some good regular gametime when he moves to Gloucester, we could have even more of a selection headache for the backrow. I hope he concentrates on 7 once he's there though. With Morgan the incumbent 8, I think his decision to move to Kingsholm cements his wishes to play flank.

offload wrote:Parling has been one of your best forwards, don't leave him out. Robshaw is your best 7 (forget the nonsense about fatty Armitage, he only looks good playing with the biggest pack in Europe). Morgan looks to be your best 8 at the moment. As for 6 let Wood, Lawes, Haskell and Croft (when fit) fight it out. You are lucky to have such depth in the back row.

+1

We have a decent pool of BRers: Wood, Croft, Haskell, Morgan, Vunipola, Robshaw, Armitage, plus a few youngsters.
We have a smaller pool of locks: Parling, Launchbury, Lawes....
If Lawes wants to be considered for BS let him play there regularly for his club - but we need him as a lock.
Croft would be wasted at lock, he needs more space to run. He's a top flanker (and I rather see him at centre than lock ).

I think SL has got it wrong here - if Haskell is fit enough for the bench then he should be fit enough to start at 8.

Everytime i see Croft listed at second row...i despair...

No no no...

Croft in the centers might be interesting. Lock may happen if he bulks up a lot but you dont want to see that happen yet.

We have a smaller pool of locks: Parling, Launchbury, Lawes....

Barney it may be small but theres plenty coming through.

Slater has been impressive...Savage, Kitchener, Kruis, ...and ill say it under my breath...Garvey.

Not a fan of Croft being in the SR for the reasons dummy_half pointed out above.

Let's not forget Fearns in the back-row debate as well. We're not just talking about a lot of numbers for the back-row but real quality there potentially which is nice to see.

Long-term one of Morgan/Vunipola/Fearns at 8 would suit England very well I think.

As much as Parling has done well I still think he can be improved on. He's possibly the weakest of our pack when we have everybody fit.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:As much as Parling has done well I still think he can be improved on. He's possibly the weakest of our pack when we have everybody fit.

But he's still a big improvement on either Botha or Borthwick (or Croft as a lock)...

If Parling's our weakest forward, we aren't in too bad shape. OK, not as good as 2003, when Ben Kay was probably our weakest first choice forward, but a damn sight better than many of us expected 2 or 3 years ago. And yes, there are youngsters coming through who will challenge and hopefully surpass him in the next couple of years, but in the meantime he's doing his job well.

Duplicate removed

Maybe Sarge, but at the moment he is very impressive in the lineout...i believe he was the no.1 on stats in the Ai's and has continued that trend...but he also offers a willing carrier good workrate, tackler and even gets in at the breakdown.

Now if someone comes through who can do all that better then fair call he will move aside...but if not he should keep his shirt.

On this...i think Lawes lineout work is becoming better and better...could he eventually become a lineout king with a physical edge rather than the "enforcer style" lock we have all labelled him?

A good improvement on Borthwick/Botha agreed.

I'd still love to see a Lawes/Launchbury combo, those two would terrorise teams. I like Robson also, can he step up?

I like Robson also, can he step up?.

See, now i just dont rate him at all...was very dissapointing in the recent Saxons games aswell.

Yea agreed there GF, the lineout is key to attacking ball. Parling just tends to lose out physically a lot though.

Sadly i think with the exception of maybe Matfield and a few others...most lineout guys arent the most physical of guys in the pack...something we just have to accept.

Lawes might change that though...if he can really make the lineout impressive...which he is actually working on.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I like Robson also, can he step up?.

See, now i just dont rate him at all...was very dissapointing in the recent Saxons games aswell.

Robson is a real quality club player but i've never seen anything from him in the England A games to see he has what is necessary to step up. Kitchener is the guy to focus on as a line-out leader and greater park contributor. Still behind Parling at present but he's really adding to his game very well and was MOTM in the Wolfhounds game.

I saw on the Rugby Clun last night that Attwood is ranked 3rd in the AP with line-out takes. If Bath continue in their current good form he may force a spot on the Argie tour.

Currently locks for that tour would be (i'm allowing for Parling and Launchbury with the Lions): 4. C Lawes 5. G Kitchener 19. E Slater - I'm guessing Slater over Robson on the bench as the pack will need as much back-up as it can get on that tour. I would'nt mind seeing Attwood take that spot though.

Attwood is almost like the forgotten man isnt he.

I wouldnt mind seeing that in Argentina though Chj..

4 Lawes
5 Kitchener
19 Slater

I still think its also a huge shame about Garvey...i rate him highly. Even LI fans say of all those leaving...him leaving would be the real disaster...that says it all if you ask me.

Agreed GF but if Garvey wants to make sure he gets talked about in the right circles he needs to move club plain and simple.

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:4. Launchbury
5. Croft
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

This has never occurred to me before, and I'm a big fan of Parling's but could it be that with Croft back to fitness and form, we could gain his mobility, attacking threat and cover tackling without really losing anything in terms of line out jumping, pushing in the scrum or physicality, if he replaced Parling at 5?

Or am I underestimating Parling's importance in calling the lineout?

I agree Croft is clearly the best 5 and should be picked immediately or if not then definately for the Wales match. I think you should call Lancaster immediately in case he isn't reading the forum today.

Croft is definitely not a SR, he should only be put there in an emergency.

As for Parling, for me he and Robshaw have been the two stand out forwards for England so far. People say he loses out physically but as far as I can see his carrying is getting better and better, his work rate is right up there, especially for a SR and his brain at the lineout cannot be underestimated. It isn't just calling the lineout, which he does well, but it is also the reading of the opposition's lineout. It is not an accident that in several crucial situations he steals an opposition lineout.

At the moment I think Lancaster has it perfectly sorted with Launchbury and Parling starting and using Lawes as an impact sub for Launchbury (albeit he is starting 6 this weekend).

The other thing that Parling provides is an old head (relatively), he may not have many caps but he has been around and isnt the type of player to get flustered and England need a couple of those about because this is a young team and there will be times where things dont go right and you need players like Parling around.

Do you think Parling has been a better performer than Wood Killer?

I don't think he offers much of a threat on opposition ball (think he got a steal against Ireland but possibly the first I've seen him get) although credit for running a good line.

It's just memories of him getting bumped off against SA and Scotland, I just think he's a little weak.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Do you think Parling has been a better performer than Wood Killer?

I don't think he offers much of a threat on opposition ball (think he got a steal against Ireland but possibly the first I've seen him get) although credit for running a good line.

It's just memories of him getting bumped off against SA and Scotland, I just think he's a little weak.

I think Johnnie Beattie ran over him in the Scotland game as well, but his carrying work has improved dramatically with the use of a step and some better lines. He'll always be in the mould of a Sam Whitelock and his work rate is very high.

What I have seen from Parling is some glimpses of really great line-out work. Several times in the AP and HEC notably the last line-out against Toulouse this year in the snow he stole a crucial ball under immense pressure.

I think there's more to come from Parling with his line-out work and he'll soon cement his place properly.

Maybe I am taking examples more from Leicester but I am sure he stole at least one lineout against NZ as well. As Chjw said, his lineout steal against Toulouse at the end of the game but I would look at England's steals overall to see how he is doing in that area because it wont always be him who steals it but it will always be him who calls the lineout so the person who steals it will benefit from his reading of what is going to happen.

I think he has performed better over the two games than Wood personally, though I maybe it is also a little unfair on Wood as he moved to 8 for the Ireland game. He is a player that seems to improve every time he moves up a level. He improved when he came to Leicester and started playing HEC games and now he has improved with England playing international games.