England's pack back 5

I dont think i am Robinson Crusoe in hoping that Lawes would replace Botha to give us a little more grunt for the France match.

Lancaster is a thoughtfull selector and i am sure that he is looking carefully at the make up of our back 5 in the pack. Balance as always being the key.

Lawes is out and needs to be replaced. Who should we look to?

Lancaster has shown a penchant for form youngsters and i think that is right. He might go back to Tom Palmer ( who i do rate highly) although i think we need something a bit different in the mix with Parling running the lineout now.

Garvey and Parling for me would be an ideal - balanced pairing. Garvey fulfilling the pile driver role, maul killer, maul driver, ruck clearing, scrum weighting pile driver role (also makes 95% of his tackles) Parling running the lineout and putting himself about the field in open play possibly in slightly wider channels than Mr Garvey.

The next time England play I'm going to keep a Croftwatch because I don’t feel that I'm fully up to speed on his contribution to our cause.

He is not visible in the way that he was for the Lions as an auxilliary centre/effective second wave ball carrier and IF he is not doing all that inglorious spade work to a high level of accuracy and quality (that he doesn’t look built for) then I say axe him the moment we get Wood back in form.

I know he is great at lineout but is that enough on it's own? I'm happy to stand corrected because at his best he is quality.

What is the correct back 5 pack selection for the France match assuming all (save for Lawes) are fit?

I would agree with you about Garvey Tri. I don't think i'd want to start him in place of Botha at the moment, who's been solid if unspectacular so far. Garvey would replace Lawes on the bench for me.

As far as Croft goes, he put in some good work in the Wales game, and I think it's frankly unsurprising that we haven't seen him at his best so far this 6N. It doesn't seem to me that the coaching team has put much planning together regarding the rather different style of backrow play that he fulfils. He is operating in the wider channels but there doesn't seem to be much of a coherent plan in his use.

Frankly, with the work that Lancaster and his team have had to do so far with the rest of the team and rookies, that doesn't surprise me. Hopefully someone will turn their attention to getting the best out of Tom Croft and the balance re-adjustment of the backrow. He could be truly devastating if he's properly employed.

Chjw131

I agree with just about everything you say here.

The obvious way to get Croft's pace involved is with a starter play isnt it?

The other day i saw one of those chalk board type diagrams in the papers i think it was by McGeechan who knows a thing or two.

It was all about using Croft and it was pretty straightforward. Just had off the top ball going out to a crash ball in midfield (where i think we should now be demanding/expecting quick ball as Barrit and Tuilagi should be going to ground on their terms) then a pass off the 10 to Croft coming around the corner FAST. Not complicated.

Hope to see something of that kind.

Otherwise.....the player must give way to a spadeworker.....the individual must be sacrificed for the the greater team good. Simple.

I think Croft was a little under used in the first two games, he is a unique asset that if you are going to include you need to utilise otherwise he can drift in and out of the game. He came good against Wales with his carrying, lineout steals and kick chases making him the stand out performer in the backrow.

With Lawes out I'd agree that Garvey should be the one to come in but with the LI injury issues then Lancaster might decide to build some bridges with the club and select Palmer instead. To my mind if England want a mobile unit on the bench then they have limited options and Palmer isn't in that category. Mobile enforcers available are Garvey, Slater and Attwood. Slater isn't ready for international rugby and has a groin injury to shake off, Garvey is part of the decimated LI team so as mentioned above Lancaster wouldn't be making friends selecting him and Attwood's form has been a bit up and down and his exclusion from the Saxons games suggests he's down the pecking order.

Formerly Sam

I think Croft was a little under used in the first two games, he is a unique asset that if you are going to include you need to utilise otherwise he can drift in and out of the game. He came good against Wales with his carrying, lineout steals and kick chases making him the stand out performer in the backrow.

With Lawes out I'd agree that Garvey should be the one to come in but with the LI injury issues then Lancaster might decide to build some bridges with the club and select Palmer instead. To my mind if England want a mobile unit on the bench then they have limited options and Palmer isn't in that category. Mobile enforcers available are Garvey, Slater and Attwood. Slater isn't ready for international rugby and has a groin injury to shake off, Garvey is part of the decimated LI team so as mentioned above Lancaster wouldn't be making friends selecting him and Attwood's form has been a bit up and down and his exclusion from the Saxons games suggests he's down the pecking order


Good points. Politics. He needs support of clubs in his bid to get permanent job. He has done a great job in that respect with releasing all the players back to the clubs all the time and getting out to the clubs i think.

What is going on with Attwood?

Has his progress stalled? Thought him impressive leading up to tour of oz.

It seems we're all pretty much agreed re: Croft and Garvey, and I take your point Sam about LI's injury issues and bridge building. But I genuinely don't know what the England coaching team think about Garvey. They took him off during his one Saxon's game at half time to be replaced with Myall (not a SR) and then never to be seen again.

As far as Attwood goes Tri, he has put in some really good performances for Bath this season, but has equally had some poor games and has been overshadowed with his carrying by Caldwell who seems to be playing very well. I don't know why he hasn't really reached the top level yet, but perhaps he just needs a chance to demonstrate it on the big stage?

I must admit, i havent been the biggest fan of Croft through the last few years....i do class him as a luxury, that at the moment England cant afford...

However as Sam says he was the best back rower v Wales...and even in the close work whilst he's not the strongest..he was getting stuck in making a nuisence of himself...creating slow ball for Wales...blunting their much vaunted attack.

In all honesty though...whilst maybe the actual individuals might not be the right ones etc...as a unit they have done very well...and have cut out the penalties....competed at the breakdown etc...so we're not in too bad a shape..

vs Wales it often seemed to me that our best 6 was Dan Cole. But I don't know if I'm being very complimentary about Cole or rude about our back row. Probably both.

But I genuinely don't know what the England coaching team think about Garvey. They took him off during his one Saxon's game at half time to be replaced with Myall (not a SR) and then never to be seen again.

I thought he picked up a knock? That or something must have been said off the pitch as he was the Saxon's best player in that half of rugby.

vs Wales it often seemed to me that our best 6 was Dan Cole. But I don't know if I'm being very complimentary about Cole or rude about our back row

Coley played a lot at 8 when growing up so he's got the backrow skillset. In fact when he first burst onto the scene at Tigers he was seen as being too dynamic and needed to concentrate on scrummaging. Then he went too far the other way and is now finding a nice bit of middle ground. At only 24 he is still developing and he is already England's best tighthead by quite a way.

Right-o

Then Gents for France it arguably (in my view should be) should be....

Parling Botha
Croft Morgan Robshaw

Garvey and Dowson benched ??

But more likely it will be.....

Parling Botha
Croft Morgan Robshaw

Palmer and Dowson benched??

vs Wales it often seemed to me that
our best 6 was Dan Cole. But I don't know if I'm being very
complimentary about Cole or rude about our back row. Probably both.

I think Cole was our best "true 7" rather than a 6. He turns over a decent amount of ball and wins penalties at the breakdown. He and Tuilagi are both excellent in that area. Makes me wonder why Leicester have seemed so cr*p there this season...

I think Croft does all the hard work you'd want from a 6 – slowing down opposition ball, getting to rucks first to secure ball... It hasn't helped him that recently commentators seem to attribute all his hard work to Robshaw! Although to be fair they do look quite similar.

His real weakness has been his carrying but that's definitely come in this season. I think he's a very good player who's never let England down.

Cole has done well at the breakdown area, but our best prop in that department is Matt Stevens. It's just a shame he can't scrummage. As Sam says he is by far and away our best tighthead at the moment.

What about a backrow of 6. Croft 7. Haskell 8. Morgan maybe that would have a bit more dynamism than the current set up? Haskell played fairly well there last 6N and he's got some good breakdown work and carrying.

Or even 6. Haskell 7. Wood 8. Morgan 19. Croft going forward?

Im a big fan of wood and i would like to see him back in the team when fit..

"Cole has done well at the breakdown area, but our best prop in that department is Matt Stevens"

I want some of what you're smoking mate! Stevens is a penalty machine at the breakdown. Fair enough, he's mobile and strong over the ball, but these days you've got to be precise. The days of a moody-type player who would steal 5 and give away 5 penalties are gone: how many penalties do you see the likes of Warburton and McCaw giving away?

The other thing that disturbs me about Stevens is his monumentally large, bovine head. Probably explains the difficulty of getting through to him. "Hands off white!! Hands off white!! Hands off white!!".....crucial penalty given.....cue Stevens looking bemused....HE TOLD YOU TO GET YOUR HANDS OFF YOU FAT-HEADED IDIOT!!!!

I think Croft played reasonably well against Wales. He is not a good pairing with Robshaw though. And I do worry about his positioning- either he's even faster than I realised or he spends a lot more time in the backs than is acceptable for a 6

Couldn't agree with you more Adam, stevens is a penalty machine and i'm still a bit baffled as to why hes in the set-up. Doran jones is just as good, but isn't as much of an idiot, plus at around 25 still has some developing to do.

Cole has been brilliant at the breakdown, as has Corbs, though i remember cole making 2 turnovers in the Wales game. Having those 2 as extra fetchers is very valuable and i have a feeling that until a true 7 comes along for england, lancaster has told every forward to compete. I actually think more turnovers have been made by our front row than our back.

I agree in the calls for wood to come back, he's a great player and i think that him and robshaw would work quite well. Croft as an impact sub wouldn't be a bad shout, however this migth leave us light at 8, with Morgan looking unable to last 80. Will be good when Haskell comes back, as bench option for the backrow he cant really be beat. PLays all positions to a high standard and coming on against tired defenders he should, theoretically, have a field day.

Adam wrote:"Cole has done well at the breakdown area, but our best prop in that department is Matt Stevens"

I want some of what you're smoking mate! Stevens is a penalty machine at the breakdown. Fair enough, he's mobile and strong over the ball, but these days you've got to be precise. The days of a moody-type player who would steal 5 and give away 5 penalties are gone: how many penalties do you see the likes of Warburton and McCaw giving away?

The other thing that disturbs me about Stevens is his monumentally large, bovine head. Probably explains the difficulty of getting through to him. "Hands off white!! Hands off white!! Hands off white!!".....crucial penalty given.....cue Stevens looking bemused....HE TOLD YOU TO GET YOUR HANDS OFF YOU FAT-HEADED IDIOT!!!!

I think saying he's a penalty machine at the breakdown is a pretty hysterical response, as such it might lead me to question what you're ingesting rather than I! Without delving into the stats at present, I can recall Stevens giving away a stupid penalty in the Wales game as you say. But name me a forward who hasn't been penalised at the breakdown in their test career. Further, it was Steven's breakdown work that gave Farrell the final shot at goal in the Scotland game I believe.

Also, take a look at him in some Saracens games. He makes a concious effort to release the player and get his hands over the ball supporting his considerable body weight. Often he wins crucial penalties. Yes he's been penalised but frankly it happens sometimes. We can all be susceptible to ridiculous nejerk reactions sometimes; like those now saying Lawes should be dropped.

Chjw131 wrote:

Adam wrote:"Cole has done well at the breakdown area, but our best prop in that department is Matt Stevens"

I want some of what you're smoking mate! Stevens is a penalty machine at the breakdown. Fair enough, he's mobile and strong over the ball, but these days you've got to be precise. The days of a moody-type player who would steal 5 and give away 5 penalties are gone: how many penalties do you see the likes of Warburton and McCaw giving away?

The other thing that disturbs me about Stevens is his monumentally large, bovine head. Probably explains the difficulty of getting through to him. "Hands off white!! Hands off white!! Hands off white!!".....crucial penalty given.....cue Stevens looking bemused....HE TOLD YOU TO GET YOUR HANDS OFF YOU FAT-HEADED IDIOT!!!!

I think saying he's a penalty machine at the breakdown is a pretty hysterical response, as such it might lead me to question what you're ingesting rather than I! Without delving into the stats at present, I can recall Stevens giving away a stupid penalty in the Wales game as you say. But name me a forward who hasn't been penalised at the breakdown in their test career. Further, it was Steven's breakdown work that gave Farrell the final shot at goal in the Scotland game I believe.

Also, take a look at him in some Saracens games. He makes a concious effort to release the player and get his hands over the ball supporting his considerable body weight. Often he wins crucial penalties. Yes he's been penalised but frankly it happens sometimes. We can all be susceptible to ridiculous nejerk reactions sometimes; like those now saying Lawes should be dropped.

That's not the worry for me (I remember, rightly or wrongly, him being bad at giving away penalties in the RWC but that's in the past) but the fact that he has been getting owned in the scrums on the side he is meant to be covering for England at International and most importantly Club level is pretty worrying

Chequred I totally agree and said in my original comment that it's a shame he can't scrummage. I'd probably rather see either PDJ or Nick Wood on the bench. Who else is versatile but also a quality scrummager?

Frankly isn't it about time we had room for a full front row on the bench?

Chjw131 wrote:Chequred I totally agree and said in my original comment that it's a shame he can't scrummage. I'd probably rather see either PDJ or Nick Wood on the bench. Who else is versatile but also a quality scrummager?

Frankly isn't it about time we had room for a full front row on the bench?

Yeah, seeing as it's done at Club Level and it's the only area that it is unsafe to not have properly covered, I think it should be allowed/compulsory. When you get down to it, 1 and 3 are very different roles so only allowing cover for one of them is arguably dangerous

I accept that Stevens is in the England set up firstly on his performances at club level and then the experience he brings to a very raw EPS front row.

But his performances for England in his core duties have been poor since his recall regardless of what he has done for Sarries.

I'm struggling on the make up of the back 5 for the France game. Botha and Parling did well against and I would keep them. On the bench I would like to see Garvey called up with Lawes injured and I think we will need Botha's strength in the scrum against a traditionally strong French front 5. Although I rate Palmer I agree with others that he is not a bench option and should either be in a starting 15 or not involved, he's just not an impact player and to be honest I thought he looked unfit in the first 2 games. In each game he looked absolutely knackered by the time he was replaced.

The backrow is a hard one. Croft has done well and has been our best backrow of the competition so far in my opinion. I've seen nothing from Robshaw to say he will be anything other than a stop gap solution at 7 and if fit and avilable I would have both Wood and Haskell playing there before him. I know his workrate is amazing but he just doesn't have the pace to be an international openside and although he has carried he doesn't actually get very far before either going to ground or being pushed backwards. Against Wales we left him in the backs a couple of times on our lineout and he took it into contact and he got easily stopped on the game line. For me when everyone is available then he should be in a straight battle for the 6 shirt with Croft. Still I guess he is our only option there at the moment and won't let us down.

Morgan did well for the first 30 minutes against Wales and then went quiet but as proved in the first 2 games a backrow of Robshaw, Croft & Dowson doesn't have enough go forward with ball in hand and so I would be tempted to keep it the same. Again Dowson on the bench as he covers all 3 positions but in my opinion this backrow is only a stop gap selection until other players are back again.

For France I would go with

4. Botha
5. Parling
6. Croft
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
18. Garvey
19. Dowson

In the long term I would like to see

4. Lawes
5. Parling
6. Croft
7. Wood
8. Haskell
18. Garvey
19. Morgan

I'd start Morgan and bench Haskell

I've been forced to eat my words on Haskell. He's still a grade A plank who was the inspiration behind the character Bruce in Grand Theft Auto 4 but on the pitch he has really improved, especially at the breakdown which was highlighted last week with his contribution for the Highlands penalty that closed out the game for his new team. He's always been a good carrier and tackler and he's also cut out the stupid penalties he gave away earlier in his career.

I just think he has more to his game than Morgan.

B91212 wrote:I've been forced to eat my words on Haskell. He's still a grade A plank who was the inspiration behind the character Bruce in Grand Theft Auto 4 but on the pitch he has really improved, especially at the breakdown which was highlighted last week with his contribution for the Highlands penalty that closed out the game for his new team. He's always been a good carrier and tackler and he's also cut out the stupid penalties he gave away earlier in his career.

I just think he has more to his game than Morgan.

Not as a starting 8 yet, though hopefully he will get some time there

Just be warned that a lightweight back 5 at forward (including Croft) is pretty much what saw us get paddywhacked in 2010 6N.

I've completely changed my mind on England's back-row. Previously i would have gone with Croft but i just don't think he's a 6 and although i rate him highly, i think there is a lack of balance with him - i know, i'm hardly saying anything new.

One player i never rated was S Armitage, but he's looked very good for Toulon playing in a league that is, lets face it, a far better standard than the English Prem. I wasn't convinced by Haskell until he moved to Stade, but it seemed to drastically improve his game, particularly his workrate and breakdown skills (i still think he occasionally carries too upright). I'd be very very tempted to try Armitage as a true openside and Haskell as a 6 when he's back in the UK.

I really rate Wood and Robshaw, and i feel like one if not both should make the team. I think against most back-rows they could compete, particularly if our front-row is competing at the breakdown as well as it appears to be. But the team i see it coming unstuck against is Ireland, who basically also play two 6.5s, but guys who are, sadly, slightly better. Ferris and SOB v Wood and Robshaw looks an Irish win all day to me, especially with Heaslip. The flip side would be the specialist line-up i mentioned of Haskell, Armitage and Morgan. But the problem i feel with this is that it could be bullied by a massive back-row like South Africa's, which is very big and abrasive. Perhaps it's a horses for courses approach.

Option 1 - specialists.

6 - Haskell
7 - Armitage
8 - Morgan

Option 2 - All rounders

6 - Robshaw
7 - Wood
8 - Haskell/ Morgan

Option 3 - The half-way approach

6 - Robshaw/Wood
7 - Armitage
8 - Haskell

We're in a really difficult situation of having some very fine back-rowers but having little idea which ones, if any, will definitely be able to step up. On Haskell's form prior to and during the WC, i'd say he's international quality. Ditto Wood. Robshaw, the jury's out, but i think he looks like he could be a solid international. Morgan, the same, but needs to improve his fitness. Armitage, looked poor in the Test i saw him play, but deserves another shot i feel.

This of course doesn't even consider people like Clark or Fearns, both of whom i still feel could be top international players.

On the second row issue, i agree with whoever asked what Garvey needs to do to be given a shot. For me it's clear we lack a powerful ball carrier in the 2nd row. The fact that Garvey offers this and a pretty good workrate should make him a shoe-in in the squad a least. I'd probably start Botha and Parling, but i think our scrum will suffer against France as a result. If so, we need someone who can add ballast - enter Garvey. I'd really like to see him given some time off the bench AT LEAST against France. For me:

1. Corbs (seems to have gone backward at scrum time but think he's been unlucky on occasion, seems to need a couple to get the measure of his opponent at the moment)
2. Hartley (reluctantly)
3. Cole (I'll hold me hands up, i thought he was average, but his breakdown work has been second to none. Could still carry a little better but rock solid at scrum time as well)
4. Botha
5. Parling
6. Robshaw
7. Wood
8. Morgan

Garvey on the bench.

If Wood's knackered then i guess it's Croft.

What as happend to Wood, is he still injured or is he back playing for his club?

I would like to see a back five for England of,
Botha

Plamer( if fit) Has not seemed fully fit in my opinion. If not then either

Atwood/Garvey

Wood

Robshaw

Morgan.

Early days for Morgan and hes got lots of time to turn into something special but have to say that Haskell would have been better so far

Haskell is having a rough time down under, totally bullied at the breakdown and looks lost in the loose.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Haskell is having a rough time down under, totally bullied at the breakdown and looks lost in the loose.

Harsh to say the least. He has been in the country less than 2 weeks and come on as sub for the first 2 games!

Sounds like hes doing a lot better than Cipriani already

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Haskell is having a rough time down under, totally bullied at the breakdown and looks lost in the loose.

Harsh to say the least. He has been in the country less than 2 weeks and come on as sub for the first 2 games!

And it was him winning a turnover at the breakdown that closed out the Highlanders' first game, making sure of the win.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think Croft played reasonably well against Wales. He is not a good pairing with Robshaw though. And I do worry about his positioning- either he's even faster than I realised or he spends a lot more time in the backs than is acceptable for a 6

Eloquently put sir. You are a gentleman.

My thoughts are that he is a pretty useless lightweight who shouldn't be wearing an England shirt. England play with only 7 forwards when he plays while he loses himself on the wing. We need much more grunt at 6 than he can offer. Comeback Richard Hill.

For me the pecking order in each pack position would be;

1.Corbs,Marler,Mullan - anyone know how Sheriden's doing on his return for Sale?
2.Hartley,Webber,Brooker,Mears - hopefully George and Tom Youngs at Leicester
3.Cole,PDJ,Stevens,Wood
4.Lawes,Botha,Attwood,Garvey
5.Parling,Palmer,Deacon,Gaskell
6.Croft,Wood,Dowson
7.Robshaw,Clark,Gibson,Armitage
8.Morgan,Easter,Waldrom,Narraway

I know certain player's position could be argued but I've named them where I think they're best, i.e. Dowson at 6,Stevens at 3,Clark and Robshaw at 7. Also split the second row's into more mobile,line-out specialist at 5 and bruiser at 4 (again some could be seen as either).

Problem in most positions from my view is we've got lots of players who are good enough for internationals but nobody exceptional in key positions to go with them. It's said so often but we need a specialist 7 desperately!

Attwood put in a "towering performance" for Bath on the weekend and took MOM.

Excellent news!

"It's said so often but we need a specialist 7 desperately!"

I agree but Robshaw could do it if he played and ran the right lines. Too often backrow 7s are either thrust in the air at the lineout or run out in to the backs for a second phase rather than running directly to the breakdown to secure the ball. Its not difficult its just about being hungry to get to every breakdown.