6N player/s you feel havent had a chance?

Ok strange sounding title but there is method in the madness! I shall explain
I was thinking about the wales team v Scotland and the possible change of AWJ in for Coombes. Coombes for Wales has been the find of the tournament for wales but at the start of the 6N no one wanted him to start and instead it was all the talk about Olly Khon.
But what has happened to Khan? he had about 15 minutes off the bench against Ireland and nothing more has been seen of him.
I understand that international rugby is a dog eat dog world but which players from the 6n teams do you feel haven't had the chance to prove themselves on the international stage?

isn't he the boxer - i think he got worked over last time in the ring

James Hook.

Glas a du wrote:James Hook.

Are we talking this year or over the last 7, 8 years?

A lot of people will be thinking Danny Care, although given Youngs' form I think it's fair enough.

From a Scotland perspective

Pat MacArthur
Duncan Weir (cameo aside)
Alex Grove (why he has not been put in the match day 23 I'll never know)
Tim Swinston
Tom Heathcote

Don't think Fergus McFadden's been treated especially well; Scott Williams for Wales is a player I always see doing good things for the national team and seems to be all too readily dispensable to the top brass.

100%beefy wrote:

Glas a du wrote:James Hook.

Are we talking this year or over the last 7, 8 years?

We're talking about taking the Mick

I thought Kohn got injured in training welshy?

Those who have been given a chance and I don't know what for

Strettle
OGara
Mathew Rees
Connor Murray
Michalak
Glas a du

Yeh Kohn hasn't played for Quins either.

"I could have been a colander, I could have shagged somebody..."

Scott Williams is a good shout given Roberts' current form. The latter has done about as little as it's possible to do over three games save for the occasional cursory barge that makes no impact as he's always running straight into waiting defenders. Williams must feel hard done by not to have gotten a look in yet when THAT is his competition.

Have you seen Williams and Davies playing together for the Scarlets

None shall pass!

Nick Kennedy, did he sheg MJ's wife or something?

Lee Byrne, Liam Williams, Eli Walker

Good calls loose.

In fairness Walker was injured for the start of the tournament was he not? Not sure if he still is though.

Always felt that Dwayne Peel got a rough deal - super player.

Plus both Cuthbert and North have been scoring tries and overall doing just about enough to justify continued selection. Roberts however, I don't think I've seen him contribute to a single positive movement for Wales so far all tournament and his omission would be well justified at present imo.

Since his blistering 09, in fact, when England, by opting to man-mark him with Worsley, effectively announced that they were settling for a more respectable margin of defeat, Roberts has not been what he was. He was also outstanding for the Lions, but something has been not quite there, relatively speaking, since he returned from that tour.

Roberts has contributed since, of course, sometimes in the form of cameos and sometimes for a whole match, but he has not kicked on to be the world-beater that he once appeared. I agree that his anonymity this year has been so marked as to make him almost stand out - if form means anything, he really ought to be replaced, just as Ashton should be (but probably won't be) for England.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Since his blistering 09, in fact, when England, by opting to man-mark him with Worsley, effectively announced that they were settling for a more respectable margin of defeat, Roberts has not been what he was. He was also outstanding for the Lions, but something has been not quite there, relatively speaking, since he returned from that tour.

Roberts has contributed since, of course, sometimes in the form of cameos and sometimes for a whole match, but he has not kicked on to be the world-beater that he once appeared. I agree that his anonymity this year has been so marked as to make him almost stand out - if form means anything, he really ought to be replaced, just as Ashton should be (but probably won't be) for England.

I think that's a bit of a gut wrench about Ashton, yes he had a bad day last Saturday but the evidence is is that he's playing himself back in to form. I agree about Roberts, he is class but seems to have lost confidence, but I don't think dropping him is the answer.

I don't see that evidence, unfortunately, AWC. To me, Ashton's confidence has also dissipated, and confidence (or cockiness, depending on your view) is an important element to his game when he's on song. England haven't made many line breaks in the last couple of games, but I haven't really noticed him on people's shoulder when they have come, as he invariably is when in the groove. His defence has spiralled to the point of being a serious concern.

At some stage, good players (which is what Ashton and Roberts are, after all) benefit from a return to a slightly lower level in order to rediscover their mojo. With both men, I think that time has come, although England don't have such an obvious replacement at 14 as Wales do at 12. Class may be permanent, but it can't be allowed to obscure such a serious loss of form.

I take your point, but to take the example of another cocky player, Cipriani, excluding him (for good reasons) seem to have deprived us of a genuine talent. Perhaps it was the injury but he's a shadow of his former self.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Since his blistering 09, in fact, when England, by opting to man-mark him with Worsley, effectively announced that they were settling for a more respectable margin of defeat, Roberts has not been what he was. He was also outstanding for the Lions, but something has been not quite there, relatively speaking, since he returned from that tour.

Roberts has contributed since, of course, sometimes in the form of cameos and sometimes for a whole match, but he has not kicked on to be the world-beater that he once appeared. I agree that his anonymity this year has been so marked as to make him almost stand out - if form means anything, he really ought to be replaced, just as Ashton should be (but probably won't be) for England.

Agree in principle with the notion that he should be dropped but, as on another thread, have to disagree that Roberts hasn't been the same since 2009. I don't understand where this idea originates from. Did you watch Wales at the WC by any chance? Of course any performance is open to subjective interpretation but I thought Roberts was outstanding in NZ and I recall the vast majority on v2 agreeing at the time. He was up there with the most powerful runners in a tournament that Wales came close to winning and many a defender was put on his backside as a result of trying to confront him. He also played his part in the last GS and this season he's nowhere to be seen.

Ashton's (and Roberts') problems are not as deep-seated and fundamental as Cipriani's, though, AWC. Nor are they as self-inflicted. Anyone can run out of form, but Cipriani showed no sign of wishing to work at his game. Instead, so far from knuckling down, eating a healthy slice of humble pie and fixing the flaws, he takes his ball off to Australia in high dudgeon, where, hardly surprisingly he finds that his flaws still exist and that SH players are just the same as NH ones in their attitudes to show-ponies without the team ethic.

Ashton and Roberts can and will be fixed, I'm sure. I can't say the same of Cipriani and I'm not sure that he would care that much. Talent is of no use on its own.

Played his part in the GS, of course, knowsit, but without the "Good gracious, that bloke can play" factor that I remember thinking of Roberts four years ago.

I accept (and had forgotten) that the RWC showed him at somewhere near his best - perhaps it would be fairest, therefore, to say, that he lacks the consistency that was his in 2009, when every performance seemed to be touched with something special. At any rate he became a mortal somewhere along the line, and this year he has been more mortal than a side should have to bear.

Kohn got injured in training after the Irish game and was ruled out of the French game and I guiess unfortunately for him AWJ was then fit again.

That saud IMO Kohn shouldn't have been in the Welsh squad in the first place.

A fair revision captain, agree with all of that. But this invites the question of whether Roberts has gone off the boil as an individual or whether the team in general has lost the initiative to use him as effectively as a player of his attributes can be used. For instance, at the RWC Roberts was receiving well-timed and well-taken pop passes from players like Priestland at close range which gave him a better platform to wreak havoc in opposition ranks. These planned and well-executed moves have declined by a big margin for Wales and now they look distinctly rudderless compared to back then.

I agree that Cipriani is a lost cause but Roberts is another story. Roberts 09 and Ashton 11 were onknown quantities and will always have slightly less impact as their careers progress. Roberts is anything but cocky and I think his problems lie largely due to expectation, which rest heavily on his shoulders but he's one good game away from being truly effective. Ashton is more about attitude, but I definitely saw signs of the player looking for the ball against Scotland and just think that the Ireland and France games have been intensely tight and physical and have shown his impetuous nature, his worst side rather than his best. Let's hope he's saving that for Cardiff

Think it is sometimes underestimated how important Priestland's graduation to a stand-off of international class was to Wales and how much they have suffered from his lapse in form and subsequent injury, Knowsit. The jury is out on Biggar, to be fair, but I'm sure that the whole Welsh back line would give anything to have Priestland back, showing the sort of form that he was 12-18 months ago. He gave the back line a variety and impetus that has perhaps been lacking since.

Probably worth mentioning that Roberts struggled with a couple of long term injuries in his wrist after the Lions tour, a few lengthy spells out damages anyones form.

He does need to get back to offloading effectively in the tackle like he did in the Lions tour though.

Lee Byrne

I read b4 6N 2011 that gats publicly challenged roberts to improve and refund his form which he subsequently did. To me this says that if he could improve when asked that he for some reason wasn't playing to his best ability beforehand. I mean if my boss (when I had one) told.me I had to improve I would have told him that I always give my best and couldn't offer more. By playing better, roberts demonstrated that his form was under his control and he could play better but wasn't. Unfortunately now I think its beyond his.control, he's given the tactic of being a battering ram and retaining the ball in the tackle rather than offload.
Underused this year: hook as a centre, byrne. Shame about Eli walker too.

I don't think Walker was ever really going to get much gfametime unless there had been a few injuries.

The experience of being in the squad itself will do him the world of good and his time will come.

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:Always felt that Dwayne Peel got a rough deal - super player.

Lloyd williams too. Shows much more speed at the breakdown than Phillips. Should have started after the ireland loss but we're in that 'dont break a winning formula' trap now.

None for England really. The only contentious issue for me is not playing a proper left wing. Some guys might feel hard done by in that a f/b (is occupying) that spot.

I know why SL plays Brown there - to cover when Goode makes his forays upfield. Plus the ball isn't finding its way out wide too much under SL, who is far too 'risk averse'.

Don't get me wrong, SL has done great things to restore some pride in English rugby; but we seem to be playing to a game plan that does not require wingers.

Even better – how about putting together a national team from players you feel you’ve never seen enough of/the best of/haven’t had a fair crack etc. I guess this is easy for English fans as they seem to have such a large player base they can never agree on who should be in the team!

My off-the-top-of-my-head alternate universe Wales XV:

15. Lee Byrne
14. Liam Williams
13. Scott Williams
12. Gavin Henson
11. Eli Walker
10. James Hook
9. Dwayne Peel (from alternate universe where he never went to Sale)
8. Gareth Delve/Gavin Quinell/Andy Powell (from an alternate universe where he has TWO brain cells)
7. Err… Josh Navidi?
6. Dan Lydiate (uninjured alternate universe)/Dafydd Jones (alternate universe where he wasn’t forced to retire)
5. Olly Kohn (alternate universe where he declared himself for Wales years ago)
4. Err… Bradley with an uninjured run..?
3. Darren Morris
2. Struggling again here…
1. Rhys Gill

Marcus,

You cant really say that Peel (76 caps) Hook (69) caps and Byrne (46) haven't been given their chances.

Liam Williams, Scott Williams and Walker will all have their time.

Agree with you whole heartedly on Delve

Powell had too many chances as it is

Navidi, mmmmmmm not sure on him myself

Lydiate will rack up the caps no worry there

Morris liked the pies too much

Gill will hopefully get more chances though maybe a move home might help his cause.

Not saying they all deserve another/more chances, but just would have liked to see some of them play more - eg Alternate universe where Morris didn't like pies so much!

I had no idea Peel had that many caps! How the hell did he amass so many when he was sharing things with Cooper for so long (though I suppose they often BOTH used to play in games)? Only remember his really being around just before and after the 2005 slam!

With Byrne it's more that I haven't seen him play for Clemont - and if he's anywhere like he was in 2008/9 I'd love to see him have a run out, as he was class at his best (though given to dips in form).

Biggest dissapointment this 6N has been the reluctance to give Liam Williams a shot!!!

IMHO a MOTM performance v NZ and he has been absolutely on fire for the Scarlets!!!

I also think Roberts of Northampton hasn't been given a real chance over a very limited Williams and Knoyle!!!

Same could be the same about Gill, and with Cuthbert in the team any arguments against Aled Brew are defunct!!

Again agreed captain, rewind back 15 months and Priestland's passing and organisation were excellent. He was a key link man with the backs, aware of who was around him and showing brilliant decision-making. Even last 6N when his kicking went downhill, he still contributed to a couple of crucial sequences of play. As you say though, he's suffered badly from loss of form and injury. Priestland at his best, perhaps one of the key elements Wales are lacking that has caused the gradual worsening of performances over the last year.

bluesman, how is Brew doing down at Biarritz? Haven't been keeping up with him since he left.

Liam Williams

Not so much given just a chance but perhaps a positional change in a new back line

15 Hogg
14 Maitland
13 Dunbar
12 Scott
11 Visser
10 Weir

15 Byrne
14 Halfpenny
13 North
12 Davies
11 Cuthbert

A colleague of mine knows Jamie Roberts from university and by all accounts I think he'll be back to his former glory when removed from living in the golsfish bowl of the UK press and thr Welsh press specifically.

Chris Henry - with his form he should have been Ireland's starting 7 instead he's had two appearances off the bench and a fetcher type 7 can never make much impact off the bench in the last 10-20 mins. He then got injured. He's been the form 7 in Europe at club/provincial level. Very hard done by.

Knowsit

Brew has become a bit of a cult hero in Biarritz, they absolutely love him.

He's scoring tries, putting in the big hits and generally making a nuisancs of himself, can't say he's developed much since the Dragons, but he has certainly grown as a leader.

There are a few clips of him giving Ngwneya an absolute rollicking on the pitch as he tries to run 30 yards sideways to go forward and ignores the other 2 back 3 players who had tons of space before the run. Ngwenya gets turned over and then told off by Brew!!

But one can make a case against his defencive work, he either smashes someone or slips off, and can be a bit lightweight when trying to take the ball into contact. But he is a far better rugby player than Cuthbert, and tackles a lot harder!!

That was against the Dragons wasn't it? Televised on terrestrial telly anyhow, because I remember it clearly.

Definitely Liam Williams for me, the standout newcomer in the AI's for me. Showed a lot in a short time.