London Welsh could face points penalty ...buy shares in their law firm now!

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21595254

Apparently they have fielded an ineligible player in several Jeff games.
The prior cases saw Tigers and Sale docked one point for fielding a player in one game....this could have serious consequences for LWs relegation battle.

Expect their legal team to be all over this if it does decide their fate at the end of the season. Oh dear oh dear.

Its a great shame if they go but they might sneak it over Sale.

Not sure what grounds Welsh have to appeal. They have actually been employing him illegally as he had no work visa. 5 point deduction is light in view.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Not sure what grounds Welsh have to appeal. They have actually been employing him illegally as he had no work visa. 5 point deduction is light in view.

Come, come, Pete - I give you exhibit one: Manusamoa Tuilagi - overstayed his visa and remained in the UK illegally - can play a bit tho, so RFU/Home Office conspired to let him stay! Pot kettle noir?!

Similar, but not the same. Had lived here for years and overstayed. Nobody falsified documents as is the case in this one, where Welsh's employee Mr Scott has been cautioned by the MPS for fraud in relation to this.

I'm just expecting it to be contested!

I know they can't bend the rules just to suit a fledgling Premiership side but this is just rubbish. I think it probably will be the difference that makes them go down. In my opinion, a fine would have sufficed especially given the nonsense they had to put up with to get into the Premiership in the first place.

I like the Premiership because of the variety of sides coming up and Exeter and Welsh have made it a lot more interesting than the ping-pong promotion and relegation we'd had with Leeds and Worcester.

Also Tuilagi didn't have a professional contract at the time (that's what flagged it up) and he was eligible as a registered English player because he was part of the academy. Completely different situations. I think they kept it at 5 points because more would have ended the relegation battle but 5 is still significant. If they challenge it I can see it being increased.

Have you read the report because the stuff Scott did was crazy.

HammerofThunor wrote:Also Tuilagi didn't have a professional contract at the time (that's what flagged it up) and he was eligible as a registered English player because he was part of the academy. Completely different situations. I think they kept it at 5 points because more would have ended the relegation battle but 5 is still significant. If they challenge it I can see it being increased.

Have you read the report because the stuff Scott did was crazy.

Think a minor rugby qualification might be over-ruled by not having a valid visa to remain in the country for several years, Thunor?! But you are right, it is of course a completely different situation - I merely bring it up to show that in certain circumstances, rules get bent when it suits

Excuse my ignorance guys, but what did the LW management do at the start of the season to annoy so many people?

Chiefs got a points deduction for the same offence. Why should Welsh be any different?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Also Tuilagi didn't have a professional contract at the time (that's what flagged it up) and he was eligible as a registered English player because he was part of the academy. Completely different situations. I think they kept it at 5 points because more would have ended the relegation battle but 5 is still significant. If they challenge it I can see it being increased.

Have you read the report because the stuff Scott did was crazy.

Think a minor rugby qualification might be over-ruled by not having a valid visa to remain in the country for several years, Thunor?! But you are right, it is of course a completely different situation - I merely bring it up to show that in certain circumstances, rules get bent when it suits

But that's nothing to do with the RFU. Tuilagi was eligible for playing in England. KT was not. No ifs or buts, those are the rules. Rightly or wrongly. Tigers didn't need to check for visa until Tuilagi went on a professional contract as an adult. When they did they found he didn't have a valid one and it was sorted out. The only iffy thing was that was allowed to stay instead of leaving and coming back. Even then I don't know the reality, especially after the Fourie cowpat.

Previous similar offences have only been one point deductions haven't they?

sheephead wrote:Excuse my ignorance guys, but what did the LW management do at the start of the season to annoy so many people?

The deliberately kept their legal challenge late to ensure that no other club could have benefited from the challenge. And they applied late and should have been bounced immediately. They appealed saying that they believed they met the criteria and right at the beginning of the appeal admitted that they hadn't and contest the criteria instead. They were manipulative. However the players and coaches have done well and most people are happy with the competition they've brought this season.

The above is all subjective of course

mckay1402 wrote:Previous similar offences have only been one point deductions haven't they?

there havent been any similar to this.

Cryptoyourisan wrote:I know they can't bend the rules just to suit a fledgling Premiership side but this is just rubbish. I think it probably will be the difference that makes them go down. In my opinion, a fine would have sufficed especially given the nonsense they had to put up with to get into the Premiership in the first place.

I like the Premiership because of the variety of sides coming up and Exeter and Welsh have made it a lot more interesting than the ping-pong promotion and relegation we'd had with Leeds and Worcester.

they falsified legal documents, they have only themselves to blame. It is a shame it's happened like this as i thought they brought something to the AP.

If they truely broke the rules then they deserve to be penalised...five points, well i wouldnt like to say if thats harsh or not...

nathan wrote:

Cryptoyourisan wrote:I know they can't bend the rules just to suit a fledgling Premiership side but this is just rubbish. I think it probably will be the difference that makes them go down. In my opinion, a fine would have sufficed especially given the nonsense they had to put up with to get into the Premiership in the first place.

I like the Premiership because of the variety of sides coming up and Exeter and Welsh have made it a lot more interesting than the ping-pong promotion and relegation we'd had with Leeds and Worcester.

they falsified legal documents, they have only themselves to blame. It is a shame it's happened like this as i thought they brought something to the AP.

what did they falsify....do you KNOW hti sor are you speculating

100%beefy wrote:

nathan wrote:

Cryptoyourisan wrote:I know they can't bend the rules just to suit a fledgling Premiership side but this is just rubbish. I think it probably will be the difference that makes them go down. In my opinion, a fine would have sufficed especially given the nonsense they had to put up with to get into the Premiership in the first place.

I like the Premiership because of the variety of sides coming up and Exeter and Welsh have made it a lot more interesting than the ping-pong promotion and relegation we'd had with Leeds and Worcester.

they falsified legal documents, they have only themselves to blame. It is a shame it's happened like this as i thought they brought something to the AP.

what did they falsify....do you KNOW hti sor are you speculating

Keats was incorrectly registered and didn't have a visa, there will be a second investigation into "Mr Scott" as it was him who registered Keats. It was Keats registration that was falsified.

Frak fook

Cheers thumor. Criteria for being in the Aviva?

100%beefy wrote:

nathan wrote:

Cryptoyourisan wrote:I know they can't bend the rules just to suit a fledgling Premiership side but this is just rubbish. I think it probably will be the difference that makes them go down. In my opinion, a fine would have sufficed especially given the nonsense they had to put up with to get into the Premiership in the first place.

I like the Premiership because of the variety of sides coming up and Exeter and Welsh have made it a lot more interesting than the ping-pong promotion and relegation we'd had with Leeds and Worcester.

they falsified legal documents, they have only themselves to blame. It is a shame it's happened like this as i thought they brought something to the AP.

what did they falsify....do you KNOW hti sor are you speculating

This

http://www.rfu.com/thegame/discipline/judgements/judgments-2012-2013/judgments-by-club/aviva-premiership/~/media/files/2013/discipline/judgments/aviva%20premiership/london%20welsh.ashx

well Poopie flipping heck this is just not very good news

i was confident we'd survive the next 5 weeks and walk away still in the Prem, now not so much

Allty wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

nathan wrote:

Cryptoyourisan wrote:I know they can't bend the rules just to suit a fledgling Premiership side but this is just rubbish. I think it probably will be the difference that makes them go down. In my opinion, a fine would have sufficed especially given the nonsense they had to put up with to get into the Premiership in the first place.

I like the Premiership because of the variety of sides coming up and Exeter and Welsh have made it a lot more interesting than the ping-pong promotion and relegation we'd had with Leeds and Worcester.

they falsified legal documents, they have only themselves to blame. It is a shame it's happened like this as i thought they brought something to the AP.

what did they falsify....do you KNOW hti sor are you speculating

This

http://www.rfu.com/thegame/discipline/judgements/judgments-2012-2013/judgments-by-club/aviva-premiership/~/media/files/2013/discipline/judgments/aviva%20premiership/london%20welsh.ashx

Pretty damning evidence. Forged documents, false information, pleading guilty to fraud. Mr Scott has a lot to answer for. As he was employed by London Welsh and acted on behalf of London Welsh, they must accept responsibility.

frak fook frak

really?

How can they think 5 points is unfair given all that has gone on when Exeter got 2 points for a purely admin error?

iirc Leicester & Exeter took a 1pt/game hit for the same offence (I stand to be corrected). If LW took a 5 point hit for Tyson playing 10 games then it could have been a damn sight worse.

What went on at LW was far far worse - 5 points seems lenient

Im actually amazed by all these people who claim its "harsh".

I'm amazed they have the gall to appeal ...

They don't seem to think that corporate reaponsibility applies to them. Also think that suspending 5 of the points is pretty generous. It's left them with a fighting chance, they'd be better off concentrating on that.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Similar, but not the same. Had lived here for years and overstayed. Nobody falsified documents as is the case in this one, where Welsh's employee Mr Scott has been cautioned by the MPS for fraud in relation to this.

I saw the story on my phone before travelling home. I wondered what was meant by the statement that part of the case had been hgandled by the police. So the visa application was faked?

Yes, it would serve them right if the extra 5 points got activated now for appealing.

They have a chance still as it stands but another 5 and they are surely sunk.

What Scott did was appalling for sure but it seems others still didn't do all the right things once it all started to come out, so they can't abdicate all responsibility. Plus a previous judgement had pointed out that leaving it all to one person was bad practice at best.

It seems originally Scott said TK was born in England and later supplied a forged passport to support that ...

Holy mackerel. Just read the official report.

yes indeed ... can you believe they are appealing?

I can believe it, but would be intereste dto see the grounds for such an appeal.

Yes Mike Scott was fraudulent, but LW did not have the processes in palce (perhaps understandable) continued to select him after Scott's boss was informed there were issues and worst of all selected him for the 10th match 2 days after Keats finally had a passport but before they had completed the registration.

London Welsh hqave wone 4 matches this season - all 4 when Keats was playing illegally. Exeter lost one of those by just 1pt.

A real mess

Steve Lewis the DoR failed in his duties - both to manage Mike Scott and after the RFU contacted him on 13th November to point out the issue.

LW stopped selecting Keats after Scott's confession in early December to then select Keats on 6th Jan - before they had actually registered him with his newly obtained visa.

I wonder how long this will all drag on for?

Yep and London Irish lost one of those after a red card that was shown to be incorrect afterwards - a swing in their favour of 6 to 8 points v LI. Not directly related I know but how they feel hard done by is a mystery.

Oh and they had another match awarded to them for Grenoble fielding an ineligible player in the Amlin. They can think themselves lucky to get 5 points instead of having the results reversed of the 4 matches they won with an illegal player.

too long I suspect

Oops

I'd be surprised if the points deduction makes a difference in terms of their relegation, their current form compared to the other sides at the bottom and the difficulty of their remaining fixtures compared to the ones that they got points from at the beginning of the season strongly signalled they weren't going to stay up anyway. The lenient delay of the full points deduction till next season does still give them an outside chance though.

Penalising the club for Mike Scott's fraudulent activity is very harsh especially as the club warned the RFU of Scott's dealing as soon as they realised.

No surprise that the panel was headed by Mark McCafferty who does not want London Welsh to play in the Premiership.

Very sad behaviour

Heaf wrote:Yep and London Irish lost one of those after a red card that was shown to be incorrect afterwards - a swing in their favour of 6 to 8 points v LI. Not directly related I know but how they feel hard done by is a mystery.

Oh and they had another match awarded to them for Grenoble fielding an ineligible player in the Amlin. They can think themselves lucky to get 5 points instead of having the results reversed of the 4 matches they won with an illegal player.

The ERC has already queued itself up in the corridor outside the LW boardroom with some questions to ask.

Maybe the real lesson is that Jeff aspirants should have the backroom organisation as well as the playing side.

Looks like yet again the claws of the PRL loving fans of established premiership clubs are out.

Read a few articles on the case before you write so many posts based on so few acurate and true facts.


I am glad to see the points are suspended and even happier to see that London Welsh will appeal.

Be happier still to see Mike Scott serve a decent length custodial sentence.

Open the other eye and take off the Dragon tinted specs Maest. English clubs in the past have taken a heavier hit for the same thing; arguably Oxford Welsh should have taken an immediate 10 point hit going by past precedent.

Mike Scott is part of the club, acting on behalf of the club, and as such the club should take the hit, and rightfully so. You appear to find it easier blaming someone else, as opposed seeing them take responsibility for their acts.

maestegmafia wrote:Penalising the club for Mike Scott's fraudulent activity is very harsh especially as the club warned the RFU of Scott's dealing as soon as they realised.

No surprise that the panel was headed by Mark McCafferty who does not want London Welsh to play in the Premiership.

Very sad behaviour

Have you read the decision report Maes? They even as late as January 6th LK was on the official teamsheet (although it had aready hit the fan) - before the registration was regularised.

Even though he didn't play, that's still a technical offence.

And you want to twist this into conspiracy theory?

This is far more to do with Mike Scott than Tyson Keats.

Mind you Premiership Rugby Ltd is far more about club owners than rugby.

maestegmafia wrote:This is far more to do with Mike Scott than Tyson Keats.

Mind you Premiership Rugby Ltd is far more about club owners than rugby.

Agreed. Scott will be pummelled and maybe the police/border agency will be more than a little interested.

Hope you don't include me as a PRL/RFU fan Maes.

I've been a dissident for years.

Given my way, the bottom four would be gone.
Actually Worcester would stay and Wasps would be gone.

To get rid of the playoffs pantomime.

If it wasn't for Scott there would be no issue. Tyson Keats has an ancestry visa as of February after mike Scott had admitted to his ridiculous fraudulent paper trail.

Keats could have been correctly registered per-season with all other new signings and there would be no issue.

It is great that LW made sure that Keats would not face discipline for actions that were not his doing.

But for the club to face all the obsticales put in front of them and now face five a points deduction next season is unjust.

I think it is remarkable that this hearing was heard without an independent jury.