London Welsh could face points penalty ...buy shares in their law firm now!

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21595254

Apparently they have fielded an ineligible player in several Jeff games.
The prior cases saw Tigers and Sale docked one point for fielding a player in one game....this could have serious consequences for LWs relegation battle.

Expect their legal team to be all over this if it does decide their fate at the end of the season. Oh dear oh dear.

The fact is that with the 5 point deduction they will more than likely go down, so I suspect the appeal is their best hope of staying up, however futile.

It's a shame, primarily because of their sterling efforts on the field this season. Sale don't really deserve to stay up, but I suspect they will now by the skin of their teeth.

Beshocked,
I think it would be difficult to increase the penalty on the appeal. With such a clear violation of the law by Mr. Scott, I think it would be a public relations disaster if they increased the penalty. This decision seems a well worked compromise. That assumes no more incriminating information comes to light.

For me, I do think there is more to the story, but may not come to light.

I agree with FES, there is not much to lose. They haven't won a match this year. Probability increases they would go down with even the 5 point penalty.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I'm pretty sure that teams in the national leagues have incurred 5 point penalties relating to irregularities around a single match.

LW are the 6th team to be docked points for registration issues this season. London Scottish were docked 3 pts, th eother 4 (Lower Leagues) were docked the maximum 5pts per match. All bar LW were single games.

As harsh as it is to wish failure on LW, the best result for the future of club rugby would be if they got relegated of their own accord and the points penalty be an irrelevance.

LondonTiger wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I'm pretty sure that teams in the national leagues have incurred 5 point penalties relating to irregularities around a single match.

LW are the 6th team to be docked points for registration issues this season. London Scottish were docked 3 pts, th eother 4 (Lower Leagues) were docked the maximum 5pts per match. All bar LW were single games.

And I am guessing that the other 5 teams docked points accepted that someone in their organisation fecked up and that they are responsible for the correct processes being adopted, and took the deductions on the chin.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:As harsh as it is to wish failure on LW, the best result for the future of club rugby would be if they got relegated of their own accord and the points penalty be an irrelevance.

Agree 100% with that PSW. If they finish bottom, hopefully it will be by more than 5 points and there can be no arguments.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I'm pretty sure that teams in the national leagues have incurred 5 point penalties relating to irregularities around a single match.

LW are the 6th team to be docked points for registration issues this season. London Scottish were docked 3 pts, th eother 4 (Lower Leagues) were docked the maximum 5pts per match. All bar LW were single games.

And I am guessing that the other 5 teams docked points accepted that someone in their organisation fecked up and that they are responsible for the correct processes being adopted, and took the deductions on the chin.

I could not find any evidence of any appeals - but that does not mean they did not.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I find it incredible that anybody can suggest that Welsh have been hard done by here.

They have illegally employed a player without a visa that entitles him to work. he has played 10 matches illegally. They are lucky that as an organisation they are not facing more serious charges. Yes, Mr Scott appears to be the numpty that did wrong, but how Keats is not being held at least partly responsible is beyond me. He signed a blank form which said that he was signing knowing what was on on it to be true. he also must know what visa he holds and what his status is.

Welsh I believe secured 20 points with him in the side when he should not have been playing. 8 of those were against relegation rivals Irish and Sale. If they did not get a points deduction, and either of those teams were relegated as a result, then they would most definitely have grounds for a legal challenge.

Quite frankly, on the administrative side, Welsh are a complete joke, which is a real shame as on the playing/coaching side they have worked hard and won the respect of many fans.

Keats now has the correct ancestry visa. If it wasn't for Scotts involvement, he would have had the correct documents prior to the season commencing.

Erm, no he wouldn't, maes - pls read the damn judgement!

They had to forge them cos he didn't have the right docs and was initially refused a visa - these are the facts, you can't dispute them!

I am a member of London Welsh I am very aware of what is and has gone on.

Read the newspaper.

The Guardian


At the centre of the punishment is former London Welsh team manager Mike Scott, who is set to appear in front of his own disciplinary hearing in the near future.

Following the arrival of New Zealand scrum-half Tyson Keats in July last year, Scott covered up the initial rejection of Keats' application for an ancestry visa after signing for Welsh, before submitting a falsified player registration form to the RFU which stated that Keats had been born in England and was English.

The RFU, suspicious of Keats' nationality, asked for proof of the scrum-half's British passport from Scott back in October. After a delay, Scott submitted a forged passport to the RFU.

Furthermore, with London Welsh eager to establish Keats' squad status in order to create investment for other signings in their bid for survival, Scott was chased by then director of rugby Steve Lewis for clarification.

Scott produced doctored emails from the RFU confirming Keats status as an English Qualified Player (EQP), although his status as an EQP did not appear on the RFU database.

With the RFU waiting on Keats's birth certificate and Welsh surprised to see that Keats was still not appearing as an EQP on the RFU database, Scott failed to appear for Welsh's fixture against Grenoble.

Five days later, Scott confessed in an email to Lewis - describing the situation as "one almighty mess." He was then cautioned by the Metropolitan Police and admitted to fraud in February.

Keats was granted an ancestry visa following a second application in January, but the damage was already done.

doctor_grey wrote:Beshocked,
I think it would be difficult to increase the penalty on the appeal. With such a clear violation of the law by Mr. Scott, I think it would be a public relations disaster if they increased the penalty. This decision seems a well worked compromise. That assumes no more incriminating information comes to light.

For me, I do think there is more to the story, but may not come to light.

I agree with FES, there is not much to lose. They haven't won a match this year. Probability increases they would go down with even the 5 point penalty.

I agree. Although they might pee LW off a bit by hiking the financial penalty.

There remains a danger for LW to embroil themselves in another stadium presidency dispute if they take a long-term view.

maestegmafia wrote:Keats was granted an ancestry visa following a second application in January, but the damage was already done.[/b]

They still played him on January 6th before his registration was complete. By itself that is a 5pt penalty.

In many ways LW were treated more leniently than they might have been with acceptance that Mike Scott committed fraud, and the RFU after highlighting concerns directly to Steve Lewis in November did not actively pursue. Steve Lewis has displayed complete incompetence in this issue.

Can I just check something here, if Keats did not have a visa, then shouldn't someone be legal done for employing illegal immigrants?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Can I just check something here, if Keats did not have a visa, then shouldn't someone be legal done for employing illegal immigrants?

Mike Scott was given a police caution for fraud.
I have no idea whether UKBA will pursue further.

LondonTiger wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Can I just check something here, if Keats did not have a visa, then shouldn't someone be legal done for employing illegal immigrants?

Mike Scott was given a police caution for fraud.
I have no idea whether UKBA will pursue further.

Typical the laws get broken, but it was for sport, oh well lets just ignore it. If that was a bloke bringing in an illegal to work in his papershop, and then doctored paperwork to make him look legal, the shop owner would be banged up simple as!

I felt sorry for London Welsh over the whole promotion nonsence, but to be honest I think they can really look at it as getting off lightly with this.

maestegmafia wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I find it incredible that anybody can suggest that Welsh have been hard done by here.

They have illegally employed a player without a visa that entitles him to work. he has played 10 matches illegally. They are lucky that as an organisation they are not facing more serious charges. Yes, Mr Scott appears to be the numpty that did wrong, but how Keats is not being held at least partly responsible is beyond me. He signed a blank form which said that he was signing knowing what was on on it to be true. he also must know what visa he holds and what his status is.

Welsh I believe secured 20 points with him in the side when he should not have been playing. 8 of those were against relegation rivals Irish and Sale. If they did not get a points deduction, and either of those teams were relegated as a result, then they would most definitely have grounds for a legal challenge.

Quite frankly, on the administrative side, Welsh are a complete joke, which is a real shame as on the playing/coaching side they have worked hard and won the respect of many fans.

Keats now has the correct ancestry visa. If it wasn't for Scotts involvement, he would have had the correct documents prior to the season commencing.

Erm, no he wouldn't, maes - pls read the damn judgement!

They had to forge them cos he didn't have the right docs and was initially refused a visa - these are the facts, you can't dispute them!

I am a member of London Welsh I am very aware of what is and has gone on.

Read the newspaper.

The Guardian


At the centre of the punishment is former London Welsh team manager Mike Scott, who is set to appear in front of his own disciplinary hearing in the near future.

Following the arrival of New Zealand scrum-half Tyson Keats in July last year, Scott covered up the initial rejection of Keats' application for an ancestry visa after signing for Welsh, before submitting a falsified player registration form to the RFU which stated that Keats had been born in England and was English.

The RFU, suspicious of Keats' nationality, asked for proof of the scrum-half's British passport from Scott back in October. After a delay, Scott submitted a forged passport to the RFU.

Furthermore, with London Welsh eager to establish Keats' squad status in order to create investment for other signings in their bid for survival, Scott was chased by then director of rugby Steve Lewis for clarification.

Scott produced doctored emails from the RFU confirming Keats status as an English Qualified Player (EQP), although his status as an EQP did not appear on the RFU database.

With the RFU waiting on Keats's birth certificate and Welsh surprised to see that Keats was still not appearing as an EQP on the RFU database, Scott failed to appear for Welsh's fixture against Grenoble.

Five days later, Scott confessed in an email to Lewis - describing the situation as "one almighty mess." He was then cautioned by the Metropolitan Police and admitted to fraud in February.

Keats was granted an ancestry visa following a second application in January, but the damage was already done.

So you are aware that Keats application for an ancestry visa was rejected and after that an employee of London Welsh falsified documents to enable him to play. Having been made aware there was an issue that employees line manager failed to act immediately, as he was busy with other stuff and doesn't get paid for working for Welsh. Despite that you think Welsh are not to blame and should be let off despite having collected 20 match points with a player in their side who was not eligible as he was working in the country illegally. I wonder if it was any other club whether you would have the same opinion maes? I suspect not.

Agree with Ozzy entirely. Maestegmafia - cant see how you are trying to argue against the punishment.

Ozzy3213 wrote:
So you are aware that Keats application for an ancestry visa was rejected and after that an employee of London Welsh falsified documents to enable him to play. Having been made aware there was an issue that employees line manager failed to act immediately, as he was busy with other stuff and doesn't get paid for working for Welsh. Despite that you think Welsh are not to blame and should be let off despite having collected 20 match points with a player in their side who was not eligible as he was working in the country illegally. I wonder if it was any other club whether you would have the same opinion maes? I suspect not.

Agreed. Maybe Scott was covering up an error he made in the summer and the right paperwork could have been in place in time. However, I suspect that every club that has been in this position could point their finger and say if ... admin person had done his job properly we'd have been okay.

maestegmafia wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I find it incredible that anybody can suggest that Welsh have been hard done by here.

They have illegally employed a player without a visa that entitles him to work. he has played 10 matches illegally. They are lucky that as an organisation they are not facing more serious charges. Yes, Mr Scott appears to be the numpty that did wrong, but how Keats is not being held at least partly responsible is beyond me. He signed a blank form which said that he was signing knowing what was on on it to be true. he also must know what visa he holds and what his status is.

Welsh I believe secured 20 points with him in the side when he should not have been playing. 8 of those were against relegation rivals Irish and Sale. If they did not get a points deduction, and either of those teams were relegated as a result, then they would most definitely have grounds for a legal challenge.

Quite frankly, on the administrative side, Welsh are a complete joke, which is a real shame as on the playing/coaching side they have worked hard and won the respect of many fans.

Keats now has the correct ancestry visa. If it wasn't for Scotts involvement, he would have had the correct documents prior to the season commencing.

Erm, no he wouldn't, maes - pls read the damn judgement!

They had to forge them cos he didn't have the right docs and was initially refused a visa - these are the facts, you can't dispute them!

I am a member of London Welsh I am very aware of what is and has gone on.

Read the newspaper.

The Guardian


At the centre of the punishment is former London Welsh team manager Mike Scott, who is set to appear in front of his own disciplinary hearing in the near future.

Following the arrival of New Zealand scrum-half Tyson Keats in July last year, Scott covered up the initial rejection of Keats' application for an ancestry visa after signing for Welsh, before submitting a falsified player registration form to the RFU which stated that Keats had been born in England and was English.

The RFU, suspicious of Keats' nationality, asked for proof of the scrum-half's British passport from Scott back in October. After a delay, Scott submitted a forged passport to the RFU.

Furthermore, with London Welsh eager to establish Keats' squad status in order to create investment for other signings in their bid for survival, Scott was chased by then director of rugby Steve Lewis for clarification.

Scott produced doctored emails from the RFU confirming Keats status as an English Qualified Player (EQP), although his status as an EQP did not appear on the RFU database.

With the RFU waiting on Keats's birth certificate and Welsh surprised to see that Keats was still not appearing as an EQP on the RFU database, Scott failed to appear for Welsh's fixture against Grenoble.

Five days later, Scott confessed in an email to Lewis - describing the situation as "one almighty mess." He was then cautioned by the Metropolitan Police and admitted to fraud in February.

Keats was granted an ancestry visa following a second application in January, but the damage was already done.

theres no need to read any paper, read the judgment straight from the RFU

Maes, I can understand how aggrieved you must feel that Welsh are in this mess and that the actions of one club official in particular is at the root of it but 3 facts remain. 1. That individual was given the authority to act in respect of the registration by the club making his actions the responsibility of the club. 2. That individuals line manager chose not to involve himself in resolving the issues as soon as they became apparent. 3. The inelligible player was team listed after the club new he was not elligible and before his paperwork was in place.

Whilst you might wish to distance the club from the actions of one person you cannot distance the club from subsequent actions.

If a "normal" business had brought in a foriegn staff member, who entered the country on a visitors visa, employed him, and then made extensive efforts to cover up that he was working illegally up to and inluding forging a passport, would there be any issue whatsoever in that organisation being subject to criminal prosecution along with any employee involved in this?

I'm sorry but firstly the player must take some responsibilty in this, secondly Mike Scott and thirdly their mutual employer should as well. London Welsh are a professional rugby club (emphasis on the word Professional as in "doing it for money") and have been for many years - if their processes are not robust enough then that is their responsibility.

As an aside if this was not a white "Old Commonwealth" sportsman playing rugby would certain sections of the press now be taking the view that the player and Scott should be arrested, charged imprisoned and deported as a matter of urgency and his employers heavily fined for employing an illegal?

nathan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I find it incredible that anybody can suggest that Welsh have been hard done by here.

They have illegally employed a player without a visa that entitles him to work. he has played 10 matches illegally. They are lucky that as an organisation they are not facing more serious charges. Yes, Mr Scott appears to be the numpty that did wrong, but how Keats is not being held at least partly responsible is beyond me. He signed a blank form which said that he was signing knowing what was on on it to be true. he also must know what visa he holds and what his status is.

Welsh I believe secured 20 points with him in the side when he should not have been playing. 8 of those were against relegation rivals Irish and Sale. If they did not get a points deduction, and either of those teams were relegated as a result, then they would most definitely have grounds for a legal challenge.

Quite frankly, on the administrative side, Welsh are a complete joke, which is a real shame as on the playing/coaching side they have worked hard and won the respect of many fans.

Keats now has the correct ancestry visa. If it wasn't for Scotts involvement, he would have had the correct documents prior to the season commencing.

Erm, no he wouldn't, maes - pls read the damn judgement!

They had to forge them cos he didn't have the right docs and was initially refused a visa - these are the facts, you can't dispute them!

I am a member of London Welsh I am very aware of what is and has gone on.

Read the newspaper.

The Guardian


At the centre of the punishment is former London Welsh team manager Mike Scott, who is set to appear in front of his own disciplinary hearing in the near future.

Following the arrival of New Zealand scrum-half Tyson Keats in July last year, Scott covered up the initial rejection of Keats' application for an ancestry visa after signing for Welsh, before submitting a falsified player registration form to the RFU which stated that Keats had been born in England and was English.

The RFU, suspicious of Keats' nationality, asked for proof of the scrum-half's British passport from Scott back in October. After a delay, Scott submitted a forged passport to the RFU.

Furthermore, with London Welsh eager to establish Keats' squad status in order to create investment for other signings in their bid for survival, Scott was chased by then director of rugby Steve Lewis for clarification.

Scott produced doctored emails from the RFU confirming Keats status as an English Qualified Player (EQP), although his status as an EQP did not appear on the RFU database.

With the RFU waiting on Keats's birth certificate and Welsh surprised to see that Keats was still not appearing as an EQP on the RFU database, Scott failed to appear for Welsh's fixture against Grenoble.

Five days later, Scott confessed in an email to Lewis - describing the situation as "one almighty mess." He was then cautioned by the Metropolitan Police and admitted to fraud in February.

Keats was granted an ancestry visa following a second application in January, but the damage was already done.

theres no need to read any paper, read the judgment straight from the RFU

+1

Maes, that's one of the funniest comments I think I've ever read on here

I've always assumed your were an intelligent fella, yet you chose to go with the mejia over the actual report? Extraordinary

LondonTiger wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I'm pretty sure that teams in the national leagues have incurred 5 point penalties relating to irregularities around a single match.

LW are the 6th team to be docked points for registration issues this season. London Scottish were docked 3 pts, th eother 4 (Lower Leagues) were docked the maximum 5pts per match. All bar LW were single games.

I thought I read somewhere that according to the rules 5 points was the MINIMUM deduction but the Exeter judgement felt that wasn't appropriate for a Prem side so reduced it to 2?

Heaf wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I'm pretty sure that teams in the national leagues have incurred 5 point penalties relating to irregularities around a single match.

LW are the 6th team to be docked points for registration issues this season. London Scottish were docked 3 pts, th eother 4 (Lower Leagues) were docked the maximum 5pts per match. All bar LW were single games.

I thought I read somewhere that according to the rules 5 points was the MINIMUM deduction but the Exeter judgement felt that wasn't appropriate for a Prem side so reduced it to 2?

They were different issues. Exeter had all players registered properly but had too many foreign players (because a Fijian one wasn't registered as Fijian).

I think the rule refers to 'ineligible' players so would cover all the variations?

nathan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I find it incredible that anybody can suggest that Welsh have been hard done by here.

They have illegally employed a player without a visa that entitles him to work. he has played 10 matches illegally. They are lucky that as an organisation they are not facing more serious charges. Yes, Mr Scott appears to be the numpty that did wrong, but how Keats is not being held at least partly responsible is beyond me. He signed a blank form which said that he was signing knowing what was on on it to be true. he also must know what visa he holds and what his status is.

Welsh I believe secured 20 points with him in the side when he should not have been playing. 8 of those were against relegation rivals Irish and Sale. If they did not get a points deduction, and either of those teams were relegated as a result, then they would most definitely have grounds for a legal challenge.

Quite frankly, on the administrative side, Welsh are a complete joke, which is a real shame as on the playing/coaching side they have worked hard and won the respect of many fans.

Keats now has the correct ancestry visa. If it wasn't for Scotts involvement, he would have had the correct documents prior to the season commencing.

Erm, no he wouldn't, maes - pls read the damn judgement!

They had to forge them cos he didn't have the right docs and was initially refused a visa - these are the facts, you can't dispute them!

I am a member of London Welsh I am very aware of what is and has gone on.

Read the newspaper.

The Guardian


At the centre of the punishment is former London Welsh team manager Mike Scott, who is set to appear in front of his own disciplinary hearing in the near future.

Following the arrival of New Zealand scrum-half Tyson Keats in July last year, Scott covered up the initial rejection of Keats' application for an ancestry visa after signing for Welsh, before submitting a falsified player registration form to the RFU which stated that Keats had been born in England and was English.

The RFU, suspicious of Keats' nationality, asked for proof of the scrum-half's British passport from Scott back in October. After a delay, Scott submitted a forged passport to the RFU.

Furthermore, with London Welsh eager to establish Keats' squad status in order to create investment for other signings in their bid for survival, Scott was chased by then director of rugby Steve Lewis for clarification.

Scott produced doctored emails from the RFU confirming Keats status as an English Qualified Player (EQP), although his status as an EQP did not appear on the RFU database.

With the RFU waiting on Keats's birth certificate and Welsh surprised to see that Keats was still not appearing as an EQP on the RFU database, Scott failed to appear for Welsh's fixture against Grenoble.

Five days later, Scott confessed in an email to Lewis - describing the situation as "one almighty mess." He was then cautioned by the Metropolitan Police and admitted to fraud in February.

Keats was granted an ancestry visa following a second application in January, but the damage was already done.

theres no need to read any paper, read the judgment straight from the RFU

+ plenty.

This is deception, fraud, illegal employment and gross incompetence by the LW management.

LW were the first 'proper' team I ever watched live, back in the 70s when they had some legendary players. And I've been to Old Deer Park several times in recent years. I suspect some of those past players will be disappointed and angry at this turn of events.

I feel very sorry for the current players, coaches and supporters for what has happened. The fact is that what an ex employee of LW has done is still the club's responsibility.

If any of us had done similar in our jobs we, and our employer, would be before a court of law.

This season rules state 5 points as a minimum - yest London Scottish were only docked 3. No idea what the rulles were in 2011, 2009 & 2007 when for various reasons Exeter, Sale & Leicester fell foul of the rules.

This was from the Exeter judgement - the guideline in the regs was 5 points but deemed not appropriate for the premiership and thus reduced to 2 points ...


“16.We considered the sanction guidelines in Appendix 2 to Chapter 13 of the RFU Regulations which provides that for a breach of regulations by selecting or playing an ineligible player (including replacement and substitutes) there should be a deduction of not less than 5 championship points (RFU Handbook page 182). However, we decided that those guidelines should not apply to the Aviva Premiership (or the Championship). It is much easier to cheat in the lower leagues where scrutiny is less onerous and the deduction of points at the elite level can have a disproportionate effect.In our view, and taking account of the need for deterrence, we determine that where a breach has occurred as a result of an administrative error, where there is no intention to gain competitive advantage or cheat, the appropriate sanction is a deduction of 2 championship points for each breach and a financial penalty.” (underlining added)

A snippet from the Grauniad

London Welsh have announced their intention to appeal against the points deduction, which drops them to the foot of the Premiership, and it is likely to be heard next Thursday. They run the risk of the punishment being made more severe.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/mar/08/mike-scott-rfu-life-ban

I still believe that any increment in punishment is likely to be merely financial.
But LW are playing with fire because at the minute even a draw could see them scrape to safety at the end of the season.
A supplementary one point deduction would see them go down in this scenario.

Heaf wrote:This was from the Exeter judgement - the guideline in the regs was 5 points but deemed not appropriate for the premiership and thus reduced to 2 points ...


“16.We considered the sanction guidelines in Appendix 2 to Chapter 13 of the RFU Regulations which provides that for a breach of regulations by selecting or playing an ineligible player (including replacement and substitutes) there should be a deduction of not less than 5 championship points (RFU Handbook page 182). However, we decided that those guidelines should not apply to the Aviva Premiership (or the Championship). It is much easier to cheat in the lower leagues where scrutiny is less onerous and the deduction of points at the elite level can have a disproportionate effect.In our view, and taking account of the need for deterrence, we determine that where a breach has occurred as a result of an administrative error, where there is no intention to gain competitive advantage or cheat, the appropriate sanction is a deduction of 2 championship points for each breach and a financial penalty.” (underlining added)

If they go to appeal another panel will assess the judgement. They could very easily decide that all 10 points should be deducted now as LW clearly don't think they should be held responsible. From the judgement it sounds like they didn't take all 10 immediately so that the relegation battle would continue. That could easily be stopped.

Indeed - and in theory they could end up with 20 points ie 2 per breach.

I really can't see what the basis for their appeal would be as the 2 points for Exeter were still given when it was accepted it was purely an admin error, not deliberate and with no intention to gain an advantage or cheat .... In the LW case, irrespective of the cause, that fact is that there were 10 separate breaches and unlike the Exeter case (where in fact there were two) the RFU couldn't have been expected to spot the breach after the first one (the reason why Exeter's two were treated as concurrent).

Given the above I think they've been more than fairly treated and got a reduction so they weren't immediately out of the running (which to be honest I don't think should have been a consideration) and to appeal makes it look like they think they shouldn't have to abide by the rules for some reason and/or their management are in denial and can't understand they are not completely blameless in the whole sorry affair.

Appeal to be heard on Thursday.

LW to contest on the grounds that it was fraud by a single person that they could not have prevented.

RFU to assert that the management processes in LW were poor, they failed to manage their staff once aware of issues and played Mr Keats after Mr Scott resigned and before they had completed registraion.

bang to rights for me ... should suck it up and think themselves lucky

Judge Blackett's comments during the Scott hearing gives them a chance.

They carried on playing Keats once they were aware of the fraud! That's even worse then the original crime! How can they have the gall to appeal??

yappysnap wrote:They carried on playing Keats once they were aware of the fraud! That's even worse then the original crime! How can they have the gall to appeal??

That is why I think they are silly to appeal.

Keats came off the bench on Jan 6th against Quins. LW had obtained his visa on 3rd Jan, but not completed the registration until after the quins game.

Add in to this that Steve Lewis admits he received an e-mail asking for Keat's passport to prove he was born in England, but failed to do anything.

Further add in that John Taylor admits that having become aware of a problem on 11th December he should have told the RFU. They were not told till 6th Feb.


BUT they will argue that they were victims of fraud and do not deserve this punishment.

How they can think any of the above doesn't deserve a punishment when other clubs have been punished for purely admin errors is a complete mystery to me.

Any Predictions as to outcome?

LondonTiger wrote:Any Predictions as to outcome?

england will lose

sorry, i forgot to take meds

Judgement to stand as is I reckon

Hearing underway.

The appeal will be heard at 4pm on Thursday by an independent panel of Gareth Rees QC, Jim Sturman QC and Philip Evans at the offices of Sport Resolutions, 1 Salisbury Square, London EC4Y 8AE.

I can see them getting something out of this as they have good lawyers. If they get off completely scot free, I may well hire their lawyers before forcing Gideon Osborne into a gimp suit and march him up and down Whitehall.

Appeal concluded. Decision due tomorrow apparently.

http://www.itv.com/news/wales/update/2013-03-21/london-welsh-appeal-decision-in-due-course/

Some interesting rumours suggesting the independent appeal panel have decided that RFU were wrong to dock points for the first 7 matches as this was criminal fraud - but that LWE are liable for the last 3.

Interesting because it is suggested that they have deemed that RFU did not abide by it's own rules and that no mitigation should be given - thus points deduction may be 15!!!!!!!

Ouch that would bite them in the arse wouldn't it?!

Frankly it would serve them right ...

what does 'in due course' actually mean?
In the language of my people it means 'whenever we get around to it'.
How about simply saying we will have an announcement by 10:00 Tuesday (for example)?

That would suggest a degree of competence doc.

Competence to make an authoritative decision.
Competence to make an equitable decision.
Competence to make a....









decision.

I knew it would be something like that. But I had to ask. Fool that I am.

The appeal panel have come up with a decision that neithe rparty are happy with - so some compromise being reached before this enters the real courts.

Perhaps.

LondonTiger wrote:The appeal panel have come up with a decision that neithe rparty are happy with - so some compromise being reached before this enters the real courts.

PerhapsMost likely.

Fixed that for you LT.
I notice that Leyton Orient are challenging London Mayoral/West Ham stitch-up of the Olympic Stadium.

Time for the RFU/PRL to get clubs to agree and sign up to in advance the terms and conditions of their contracts.

Can't see LW getting a rogue administrator past the courts though.

Latest:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9947551/RFU-to-rule-on-strong-London-Welsh-appeal-for-fielding-ineligible-player-Tyson-Keats.html