Captains

There was a guy I played with who was the standout player for a couple of seasons. A real talker on the pitch and had a big extrovert personality. He was eventually made captain and was absolutely rubbish for the first 3 months or so. The club then installed a policy of rotating the captaincy every year. He inevitably got better and finished out the season in fantastic form, had won everyone over as we witnessed him grow as a captain and a person as the season progressed. He told me he surprised himself by the maturity he gained and the leadership he had shown and that it had benefitted him in all aspects of his life. He was replaced the next season and the team suffered as a result.
I can see a lot of parallels between that and what Jamie Heaslip is currently going through and not so long ago Chris Robshaw
A leader may be born rather than made but standing up in front of a group of your peers and saying “I am the leader” is not natural.. They may be the right candidate by virtue of their personality and ability but just because that label is put on someone does not mean they will take to it like a duck to water
I’ve played for several clubs on various teams going down levels as I got older under many captains. In my experience it requires a full season for a new captain to be accepted by his team mates, gain the experience to make the right calls (kick for goal or opt for the lineout) and most importantly to feel comfortable in the role.
I take my hat off to anyone who is willing to take on the job. I stood in as captain a couple of times in Mickey mouse J3 games and almost cracked under the pressure. Jamie will be a fine captain for many years to come. It’s a baptism of fire at the moment but it will stand to him in the long run. By the same logic, I think Chris Robshaw has already come out the other side and is now the standout candidate for the Lions captaincy

PS Tony Ward is a cabbage

Sam Warburton is not a natural leader

RubyGuby wrote:Sam Warburton is not a natural leader

But Ryan Jones most certainly is

RubyGuby wrote:Sam Warburton is not a natural leader

The point is I guess is that a leader can be made given the right person and circumstances. I haven't watched closely enough this time around but R Jones has been getting decent reviews for leadership. I have to say - first time around he didnt seem to be a good leader at all. His body language always seemed so negative

Robshaw has said that when he became club captain for Quins, he struggled initially through trying to do too much himself and had to learn to use the other leaders on the field. Some who bece captains very young don't seem to have to go through that - I'm thinking Carling, Johnson, Warburton.

Scarpia wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Sam Warburton is not a natural leader

But Ryan Jones most certainly is

Sam has done well in the past but has suffered since his form has dipped. Lets not forget that when Jones was captain initially he went well but then like Warburton his form dipped and he was pants and again like Warburton was only getting picked because he was captain.

I thought Rees done really good job when he was captain.

I didn't want to mention Warburton as most criticism levelled at him recently seems to be for his form rather than captaincy. I think his form is closely related to the shocking run of injuries he has had and if he can recover fully then he has the game and leadership ability to be a force for Wales again

Despite how good some players are, they may never make good captains, knew one guy who was a very talented footballer, everyone on the teams he played for unanimously agreed he was their stand out player.
However he could not deal with captaincy, as soon as things went pair shaped on the pitch he would go quiet and his head would sink when he needed to rally his team.

Warburton might be a good captain, but only his form was letting him down, I think its very difficult to tell how a captain is doing if you are not down on the pitch with the team.

Submachine wrote:It’s a baptism of fire at the moment but it will stand to him in the long run. By the same logic, I think Chris Robshaw has already come out the other side and is now the standout candidate for the Lions captaincy

Everything was going swimmingly until your last sentence, taking all into account all you had said previously the stand out captaincy candidate must be Ryan Jones by a country mile. You can see what a difference the whole welsh squad is under his passionate, composed and level headed leadership. He says the right things on and off the field. The added advantage to his pitch is that he can play 4-5-6-7-8 positions very very well.

Robshaw for captain???

Not based on what Ive seen, standout back rower yes, but he still makes dodgy calls, and generally looks out of his depth when it comes crunch time and players start to look at him. Very usefull guy to have but leader he is not!

Sorry that meant to read captain, not leader!!

IronMike wrote:Despite how good some players are, they may never make good captains, knew one guy who was a very talented footballer, everyone on the teams he played for unanimously agreed he was their stand out player.
However he could not deal with captaincy, as soon as things went pair shaped on the pitch he would go quiet and his head would sink when he needed to rally his team.

Iron,

Your right and on the flip side of that I have played under a few captains who on skill alone wouldn't neccessarily get into the team but they just seemed natural born leaders and took to it like ducks to water.

When they spoke we as players listened and their performances and committment levels were never in doubt.

Ryan Jones is a great captain. he would have to be guaranteed his place to be lions captain.

can play second row or back row, BUT WOULD HE BE GUARANTEED HIS PLACE?

haircut,

Ryan has had his bad times to a few season or so back. If he continues his form then am pretty sure he will tour but not sure if he would be a gauranteed test starter

R Jones is a very good player and captain but with a fully fit Welsh squad would not make the starting team and would probably struggle to make the bench. Based on that, he could not be considered for the lions captaincy.

our youth team last year had a great captain, loud, led from the front, wouldn't back down kind of attitude, but also very good with a rugby brain and good at talking to the ref, I think losing him as a captain (as he moved to the senior squad) has had an impact on the squad as while we have many talented intelligent players, none of them are loud enough or good at talking to the ref, and this means when under the kosh we have no player to stand up and take lead (unfortunately I am unable to do this due to injury :/ )

Submachine wrote:R Jones is a very good player and captain but with a fully fit Welsh squad would not make the starting team and would probably struggle to make the bench. Based on that, he could not be considered for the lions captaincy.

When has Ryan Jones not made the bench except when he was injured? In my view I would put Ryan ahead of Lydiate and Faletau, both are very good but they don't have Ryan's skill set, experience or leadership qualities. Ryan's problem is he is too useful on the bench as he covers so many positions very well and it does not affect his game like Hook covering the backs. The problem for Wales is they have fielded a lot of young players but very few leaders so when there is a dip in form Warburton is found wanting or injured also he is not a leader yet.

glamorganalun wrote:

Submachine wrote:R Jones is a very good player and captain but with a fully fit Welsh squad would not make the starting team and would probably struggle to make the bench. Based on that, he could not be considered for the lions captaincy.

When has Ryan Jones not made the bench except when he was injured? In my view I would put Ryan ahead of Lydiate and Faletau, both are very good but they don't have Ryan's skill set, experience or leadership qualities. Ryan's problem is he is too useful on the bench as he covers so many positions very well and it does not affect his game like Hook covering the backs. The problem for Wales is they have fielded a lot of young players but very few leaders so when there is a dip in form Warburton is found wanting or injured also he is not a leader yet.

your opinion but for me the balance with Lydiate the chopper, Faletau the carrier, and Warburton/Tipuric the jackaler works much better and while ryan jones is a superb player and always does the dirty work but isint good enough to dispense those 3/4 on form. I would always have him on the bench however as he is such a good sub, and due to his range of position I would argue he is ahead of tipuric or warburton on the bench due to him covering a range of positions.

Does a good captain always have to be your starting player a good captain leads on and off the pitch. I think it martin Johnson said that the best captain don't always have to be in your starting 15 he might not even make the bench but as long as his presents was felt in the changing room, or when he's watching the 23 players walk out on match day he would be there ready with the water bottles telling the players they can do it

That's why a 75% fit Paul O'Connell or BOD are most curtain to be the best captains been there done and are along side the greatest captains to have played the game

And it was only a couple of months ago people were asking was robshaw the right guy to be leading England after that call he made which was a deciding factor in the game England lost, so in a few games for country does that make him a great captain or does it make it a learning curve and the lions captain a bit to much to soon

welshy6 wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:

Submachine wrote:R Jones is a very good player and captain but with a fully fit Welsh squad would not make the starting team and would probably struggle to make the bench. Based on that, he could not be considered for the lions captaincy.

When has Ryan Jones not made the bench except when he was injured? In my view I would put Ryan ahead of Lydiate and Faletau, both are very good but they don't have Ryan's skill set, experience or leadership qualities. Ryan's problem is he is too useful on the bench as he covers so many positions very well and it does not affect his game like Hook covering the backs. The problem for Wales is they have fielded a lot of young players but very few leaders so when there is a dip in form Warburton is found wanting or injured also he is not a leader yet.

your opinion but for me the balance with Lydiate the chopper, Faletau the carrier, and Warburton/Tipuric the jackaler works much better and while ryan jones is a superb player and always does the dirty work but isint good enough to dispense those 3/4 on form. I would always have him on the bench however as he is such a good sub, and due to his range of position I would argue he is ahead of tipuric or warburton on the bench due to him covering a range of positions.

Alun
I for one 100% agree with you, Ryan Jones in my mind is a better blindside than Lydiate (even though he won man of the series last yr), I would say he is a better all round 8 than Faletau, and he is up there on the openside. If all fit and on form I would pick

Wales
8 Jones (C)
7 Tuperic
6 Lydiate

Lions
8 Morgan
7 Rennie / Tuperic
6 Jones (C)



If I had to pick between Robshaw and Jones for the blindside spot then it would be no doubt in my mind who would occupy the jersey, not just for his play but for his much better decision making capacity

I wouldn't want a 75% fit anyone as a player, let alone captain. There's still games to be played and credentials put forward.

The best captains/leaders are invariably those who get the best from their team. My own preference is someone who leads by example and pulls everyone up to their level of commitment.

At the moment Robshaw, Jones and Brown are doing that, in terms of Lions candidates. BOD, although no longer Ireland captain, is obviously in a similar mould.

So is the whole Robshaw is a bad decision maker still stemming from the Australia and SA games in the AIs? Waldrom was an inch away from vindicating the first call and in the SA game, had Farrell taken the kick quicker, and botha not made a mess of the restart england would have been at the half way line with a scrum (that we were starting to get on top of) and a penalty away from winning the game.

I like Jones, he has been consistently good for Wales wherever he's played, however i think he would only get in the matchday 23 through his versatility, he isn't the best player in any of the positions he can play, but would be excellent cover off the bench.

belovedfrosties wrote:So is the whole Robshaw is a bad decision maker still stemming from the Australia and SA games in the AIs? Waldrom was an inch away from vindicating the first call and in the SA game, had Farrell taken the kick quicker, and botha not made a mess of the restart england would have been at the half way line with a scrum (that we were starting to get on top of) and a penalty away from winning the game.

I like Jones, he has been consistently good for Wales wherever he's played, however i think he would only get in the matchday 23 through his versatility, he isn't the best player in any of the positions he can play, but would be excellent cover off the bench.

Do you think Robshaw is the best in his position?

Robshaw has been CONSISTENTLY the best in his position for a while now. He is odds on favourite to captain the Lions & quite rightly so as Gareth Edwards acknowledged after the NZ victory.

Yep, it should be Robshaw.

He can unite the four nations too. Something I'm not sure a Welsh captain could do these days (despite Ryan Jones being a good leader and on form).

According to Willaim Hill this morning:
Odds to be appointed British & Irish Lions captain 2013

8/13 Chris Robshaw
7/4 Brian O'Driscoll
That seems about right
16/1 Ryan Jones & Alun-Wyn Jones
Might be worth a fiver on Ryan after all
20/1 Jamie Heaslip
33/1 Sam Warburton, Rory Best
40/1 Jonny Sexton, Tom Wood
Haven't heard wood mentioned at all. Wonder why he is so short (relatively)
66/1 Dan Lydiate
100/1 Jamie Roberts
125/1 Paul O'Connell, Sean O'Brien
Might have that other fiver on big Paul
150/1 Dylan Hartley, Ross Ford
250/1 Alistair Kellock, Chris Ashton, Gethin Jenkins, James Hook, Matthew Rees, Mike Phillips, Toby Faletau, Toby Flood
Ok so these guys are outsiders but somebody must have put a serious bet on Ashton if he is as short as 250/1

No Rory Best?

Paddy Power has him at 35/1

Golden wrote:No Rory Best?

Paddy Power has him at 35/1

Sorry. Missed Rory. Looks like Paddy is slightly less optimistic about his chances.

No Kelly Brown? That is surprising...

I think it will be Robshaw though

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:No Kelly Brown? That is surprising...

I think it will be Robshaw though

Brown is 30/1 on paddy power

I reckon it'll be Robshaw for the tests with either Ryan Jones or Kelly Brown leading the dirt trackers.

Rugger,

If Jones keeps up his current level of performances I think he might well be in contention for a starting test slot

bedfordwelsh wrote:Rugger,

If Jones keeps up his current level of performances I think he might well be in contention for a starting test slot

In which position? Lets discount lock as he is a backrow who covers lock.

At 6 currently he is up against Harley, Wood, O'Brien and if they are recovered in time. Ferris and Lydiate
He won't be considdered at 7
I think his best chance is at 8 but Faletau is ahead of him in his own team, then you have Beatie, Morgan, Heaslip and possibly Easter to contend with.

If he tours he will either be captain at 8 or out of the test squad altogether as he won't be asked to cover 7 from the bench.

If Jones is captain at 8 Possibly
6. Wood
7. Tipuric
8. Jones
Bench Robshaw/Warburton/Rennie/SOB

If Robshaw captain
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
Bench Tipuric/Warburton/Rennie/SOB

Dont think he will make captain but if his form continues and with his versatility he has a better than average chance to tour and possibly bench

I always thought I'd make a fantastic Captain. Unfortunately nobody else saw the potential...

Sorry to hear that Glas - Unfortunately I capatained my schools, my senior rugby side but the one that gives me the most vicarious pleasure is the fact that I Captained an english golf club and was a member of the English Golf Captains Society - How jolly good is that for a valley boy

Submachine wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Rugger,

If Jones keeps up his current level of performances I think he might well be in contention for a starting test slot

In which position? Lets discount lock as he is a backrow who covers lock.

At 6 currently he is up against Harley, Wood, O'Brien and if they are recovered in time. Ferris and Lydiate
He won't be considdered at 7
I think his best chance is at 8 but Faletau is ahead of him in his own team, then you have Beatie, Morgan, Heaslip and possibly Easter to contend with.

If he tours he will either be captain at 8 or out of the test squad altogether as he won't be asked to cover 7 from the bench.

If Jones is captain at 8 Possibly
6. Wood
7. Tipuric
8. Jones
Bench Robshaw/Warburton/Rennie/SOB

If Robshaw captain
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
Bench Tipuric/Warburton/Rennie/SOB

Its amazing you pick Wood as a certainty, Robshaw at openside, Lydiate not there at all, and Rennie (if fit) on the bench.

Rennie and Tuperic are out and out opensides (and a country mile more effecient in the role), Robshaw gets pushed to either side of the flank dependant if a fit (better) player is available for Lancaster, Woods the same playing on both flanks for England in the 6Ns so far. Rennie is the olny one you have mentioned that has outperformed Pocock and you shouldnt even think about the comparison between him and Robshaw if both are playing on the top of their game. Lydiate was man of the series last year and again is an out and out blindside

Be interesting to see how Woods (if he is actually selected on the blindside) performs against Ryan Jones in a few weeks, I'll wack a tenner on who performs the better

I'm beginning to think that game on the 16th is going to be a Lions decider more than anything - Should be fascinating

flyhalffactory wrote:

Submachine wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Rugger,

If Jones keeps up his current level of performances I think he might well be in contention for a starting test slot

In which position? Lets discount lock as he is a backrow who covers lock.

At 6 currently he is up against Harley, Wood, O'Brien and if they are recovered in time. Ferris and Lydiate
He won't be considdered at 7
I think his best chance is at 8 but Faletau is ahead of him in his own team, then you have Beatie, Morgan, Heaslip and possibly Easter to contend with.

If he tours he will either be captain at 8 or out of the test squad altogether as he won't be asked to cover 7 from the bench.

If Jones is captain at 8 Possibly
6. Wood
7. Tipuric
8. Jones
Bench Robshaw/Warburton/Rennie/SOB

If Robshaw captain
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
Bench Tipuric/Warburton/Rennie/SOB

Its amazing you pick Wood as a certainty, Robshaw at openside, Lydiate not there at all, and Rennie (if fit) on the bench.

Rennie and Tuperic are out and out opensides (and a country mile more effecient in the role), Robshaw gets pushed to either side of the flank dependant if a fit (better) player is available for Lancaster, Woods the same playing on both flanks for England in the 6Ns so far. Rennie is the olny one you have mentioned that has outperformed Pocock and you shouldnt even think about the comparison between him and Robshaw if both are playing on the top of their game. Lydiate was man of the series last year and again is an out and out blindside

Be interesting to see how Woods (if he is actually selected on the blindside) performs against Ryan Jones in a few weeks, I'll wack a tenner on who performs the better

I was suggesting possible back row combinators (I kind of miss that) depending if Jones or Robshaw were named Captain as the thread is about captaincy. If all potential backrows were available I would have both Ferris and Lydiate ahead of Wood at 6 then Sean O'Brien then R Jones. But they don't look like making the tour at the moment and that's just my opinion. As I said I think if Jones is a realistic choice for captain then he would have to start at 8.

I think because of the difficulty of naming a back row that the captain needs to come from eleswhere.

Ironically there isn't 1 player in all 15 positions who is a cert - that is strange for a Lions team.

My backrow is currently Wood. Faletau. Robshaw (Capt.)

I think not picking a captain because there is competition for his position is as stupid a reason as you can get

RubyGuby wrote:Ironically there isn't 1 player in all 15 positions who is a cert - that is strange for a Lions team.

My backrow is currently Wood. Faletau. Robshaw (Capt.)

I would say Dan Cole and Cian Healy are dead certs. There certainly isnt a better tight head around than Cole right now.

Cole struggled against the French didn't he?

Most people struggle with Domingo though.

Adam Jones will argue with that - Cole is not a Cert and the english scrum has not had dominance in the 6 nations

Cole is well in front at the moment. He's been superb for a long while now.

RubyGuby wrote:Adam Jones will argue with that - Cole is not a Cert and the english scrum has not had dominance in the 6 nations

I could have scrummaged against Domingo on that pitch at St Denis and drew the same ammont of penalties.

Adam Jones in that match is not a benchmark of aptitude but rather a failure of the ground staff and the referee.

IMO the Scrums should have gone uncontested when it became clear how dangerous it could become.