v2 G.O.A.T Round 2 Group 5

First topic message reminder :

Yesterday’s first group was dominated by American Olympic Champion Michael Johnson and cricketing legend Garfield Sobers both won 45% and 32% of the vote, shutting out Edwin Moses and Babe Ruth who both exit the tournament at this stage.

Elsewhere in round 2 group 5 was quickly turning into a three way race for last sixteen qualification between Redgrave, Messi and SRR. It was the boxing icon that triumphed come close of play taking 45% of the vote with Redgrave making it through in second place with 7 votes more than Messi.

Today’s first group pits Swimming, Darts, Tennis and Football together in what promises to be a very competitive group.

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport

Please leave a comment as to why you voted.

super_realist wrote:Not so sure. I don't think Rugby is a particular skillful game, more coordination.

Depends to a degree where you play, different skillset for a fly half than a lock. I cant think of too many sportst hat require more skill sets than a fly half, passing, kicking, running, tackling, leadership, organisiation. And all done under pressure of being flattened.

SR

What sports do you like?

Diggers, do you think Mo Farah, Rudisha, or Bolt are talented or skilled? Surely there is deomonstrably less talent in putting one leg in front of the other than rowing?

I think there is more skill to running a 100 meters than people think, lots of elements to put together to run quickly.
I think their are obvious physical talents you need to be a good athlete or rower, I just dont get that exited by rowing as its a minority sport. Plus I find it dull to watch and I enjoy athletics but of course thats purely personal.

COuld it be the case DIggers that as a non-rower you might be underestimating or oblivious to the skill required?

I'm not a massive rowing fan either, but I doubt I'd just be able to get in a boat and do it, whereas anyone can run.

I appreciate that all sports are much harder to do well than they appear, the people who are really good make it look easy.
Like I say I have sat in a boat and rowed, Ive also done a lot of rowing in gyms, I dont think its that hard. Its hard to be very good at it Im sure, but thats the same with running.

Raises a good point though, what is the hardest sport in the world?

super_realist wrote:Raises a good point though, what is the hardest sport in the world?

Golf!

Id probably go for something like parallel bars in gymnastics.

Stella wrote:

super_realist wrote:Raises a good point though, what is the hardest sport in the world?

Golf!

Not a chance.

golf may not be far off. certainly far harder to get a handle on than the other mainstream sports like football or tennis.

The static ball makes golf nowhere near as tough for me. Sure its hard but given a bit of practise you can hit a few shots, and putting is half the game and anyone can do that . How good would you have to be to at tennis to even dream about getting close to a Roger Federer serve?

golf is tough - so many attributes.

tennis as well.

Or an Ernie Els swing?

it depends what we're calling "hard". I assume we're talking about skillset, but hard to what extent? Become very very good at, become adequate at, etc. I would argue that most people with a good hand-eye coordination can become pretty good at racquet/bat sports (tennis, cricket, ping pong, badminton, baseball, etc. - batting in baseball and cricket obviously). Equally, there are a few sports (running, rowing, cycling) which require mostly physical input to be decent at (though to be very good at it there's a huge amount of technical work that goes on).

Maybe something like boxing which requires probably an equal ratio of physical fitness/skillset?

Some of the super technical sports (judged sports) like Diving, Snowboard half pipe, Gymnastics must be up there, as they require massive skill and bravery, although I can't count judged sports.

tennis for me Is possibly the goat sport when it comes to physical fitness and skill levels..

however even this sport on certain surfaces have produced less skillfull winners.

Goran at wimby with his power serve for one.

boxing could also bring these issues up- we could have a brutally massive heavyweight that gets that one lucky punch in to knock the best ever boxer in a one off fight!

So maybe the ultimate test is golf - you could be the longest driver in the world- but you will never win a us masters based on that(there are seperate stars in the field of long driving!)

Oakey, Goran was much much more than just a serve. You only need to watch the 2001 Final against Rafter to see how much touch and skill he had.
Best final i've ever seen, and won by someone who is a genuine personality.
Was very happy for him that day.

Can't have golf, sorry. I'm a decent golfer and also a decent runner. I'm more proud of my marathon times than my golf scores, even though I'm probably in the same percentage in ability in both.
Golf when broken down is absurdly simple and ultimately at the scoring end, not massivley skillful.

SR i cant agree with your assesment on golf at all pal.. It is a highly skillfull game with many different skill sets- infact at the highest level absurdley complicated!!

anyway..

The best game that year was Goran v Tiny Tim..

That was some serious semi final

I was cheering Goran all the way.

In terms of the most absolutely demanding sport, I think there's a decent case to be made for mountaineering. Hugely demanding on strength, physiology, fitness, endurance and skills, also hugely mentally demanding, not least because it's one of the few recreational activities where a bad decision can get you killed.

Counting against it is that it's not directly competitive in the same way that, say, football is. It's also impossible to televise, so not a spectator sport (but participation rates are high).

Other candidates, coming from a "demanding on multiple fronts" perspective would be the multi-event sports: decathlon, heptathlon, triathlon, biathlon, modern pentathlon.

mystiroakey wrote:SR i cant agree with your assesment on golf at all pal.. It is a highly skillfull game with many different skill sets- infact at the highest level absurdley complicated!!

Oakey, it's only complicated if you want it to be. Like any sport if you break it down to simple elements it's much easier.

It's a static sport. Not easy to be very good at, but quite easy to be pretty good.

Diggers wrote:I appreciate that all sports are much harder to do well than they appear, the people who are really good make it look easy.
Like I say I have sat in a boat and rowed, Ive also done a lot of rowing in gyms, I dont think its that hard. Its hard to be very good at it Im sure, but thats the same with running.

Rowing in gyms is to rowing as swingball is to tennis.

They hold the Indoor Rowing world championships and there are several guys each year (often rugby players, for some reason) who beat the best rowers on the Concept II Rowing Ergometer. But they are useless in a boat. A rowing machine is far more forgiving of how you apply your power than a real boat.

super_realist wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:SR i cant agree with your assesment on golf at all pal.. It is a highly skillfull game with many different skill sets- infact at the highest level absurdley complicated!!

Oakey, it's only complicated if you want it to be. Like any sport if you break it down to simple elements it's much easier.

It's a static sport. Not easy to be very good at, but quite easy to be pretty good.

I wouldnt say that pal..

Very complex to get in at a half decent standard. And then at the high level exceptionally tough due to participation. Golf is one of the more complex sports for sure. how ever as we know you dont have to be ubber fit!

All timing Oakey, I hadn't played for 15 years when I took it up again and started off with a 7 handicap. If I can do that, how hard can it be.

7 handicap yeah.

well thats the handicap i started back on after a 4 year break- but i was of 4 before and you were of 2 or something- so its relative!

Oakey, I gave up when I was 12 off a handicap of 22, my first adult handicap was 7 having not played for years.

well your an anomoly.. that is as rare as hens teeth.

Disagree, one of my usual fourball did it too. Although he was off 8.

well I dont know anyone that has done that.. It might as well be your first handicap.. because you clearly wernt at any level at the age 12..

You could have straight away almost got in your county championship off that handicap..

Its rare trust me.. and for two in a fourball eeptionally rare.

If you had been playing alot for 4 or so years with players much better than you i could understand it. But your saying you got that straight away!

Not disputing you. just putting the forsight out there. A single figure handicap accounts for a very small percentage of golfers(2.3 %, thats 1 in 50 odd), add to that its your first thats like one in 10000.

Point being it doesnt matter what has happened to you. its not normal

Opted for Phelps, perhaps swung by an absolutely fantastic writeup. Kudos to you, Chris! Though I'm a big fan of Martina and Pele, viewing them both as GOATs of their sports respectively, I can't help but admire the outrageous statistics and blanket domination of Phelps. His feats at Beijing may well go unmatched for many decades - I couldn't believe what I was seeing, particularly in the 100m butterfly final versus Cavic. I'll never forget his reaction after losing the same event in a similar manner four years later, either - helping show the young Chad le Clos what to do in the aftermath of winning your first gold! Pure class.

mystiroakey wrote:well your an anomoly.. that is as rare as hens teeth.

I agree, I've never heard of anything like that. Very impressive, super_realist. Do you enjoy playing more now as an adult, incidentally?

M Philips and pele, my vote went for MP

Silver wrote:Opted for Phelps, perhaps swung by an absolutely fantastic writeup. Kudos to you, Chris! Though I'm a big fan of Martina and Pele, viewing them both as GOATs of their sports respectively, I can't help but admire the outrageous statistics and blanket domination of Phelps. His feats at Beijing may well go unmatched for many decades - I couldn't believe what I was seeing, particularly in the 100m butterfly final versus Cavic. I'll never forget his reaction after losing the same event in a similar manner four years later, either - helping show the young Chad le Clos what to do in the aftermath of winning your first gold! Pure class.

mystiroakey wrote:well your an anomoly.. that is as rare as hens teeth.

I agree, I've never heard of anything like that. Very impressive, super_realist. Do you enjoy playing more now as an adult, incidentally?

Of course, shooting a better score is naturally more enjoyable than being a hacker of 22.
However, much of it has to do with being taller, stronger, being able to swing faster and more powerfully everything you get by being an adult and not a 5 foot 12 year old, having a better temperament and using course management more effectively is also massively important. It's not as if I consider myself to have made some sort of golf quantum leap. Hence why I think it's relatively easy to be good at this game as a lot is just being reasonably well coordinated and having the forethought to think clearly and effectively as to what shot you should play.

I reckon I could take 6-10 shots off the score of an 18 handicapper just by changing the decisions they make and the shots they take on. Golf is certainly not rocket science.

SR you a painting an incorrect picture pal..

And there are many 18 handicappers out there that do play the correct shots- just dont have the ability to shoot lower..

I could give you 10 18 handicappers and i would bet you couldnt take 6 shots of there scores(let alone 10!!).. 2 ,maybe at a push

of course i could also give you 10 18 handicappers that you and I could take plenty of shots off at the same time..

And to add 95% of golfers will need alot (and i mean alot) of practise just to get down to an 18 in the first place..

it really isnt something you can just pick up..

And lest get real here a real 18 handicapper isnt someone that can shot an 18 over par score on a chip and putt or a 9 hole(times 2) golf course..

Anyone thinking the game is so easy as the picture you paint- will be completly demoralised after a few rounds and practise!! because they will be rubbish. Just that first score under a 100 on a proper golf course is a milestone(playing to an effective 30 handicap!)

I couldnt vote for Phelps, all he's ever done is win Olympic gold medals in a sport that chucks gold medals around like minties in a lolly scramble.

I couldnt vote for Taylor, as Ive never heard of him.

I couldnt vote for Navratalova, as I dont think shes even the greatest tennis player of all time.

Pele, gets my vote, but dont ak me anything about soccer, cause i got Nothing.

super_realist wrote:Not so sure. I don't think Rugby is a particular skillful game, more coordination.

I find this a very interesting remark!

Since I cant think of any sport that doesnt have some requirement for co ordination, Could Super realist please tell us out of the 15 positions in a rugby team which positions do require skill? obviously from a realist(ic)s perspective...

mystiroakey wrote:And to add 95% of golfers will need alot (and i mean alot) of practise just to get down to an 18 in the first place..

it really isnt something you can just pick up..

And lest get real here a real 18 handicapper isnt someone that can shot an 18 over par score on a chip and putt or a 9 hole(times 2) golf course..

Anyone thinking the game is so easy as the picture you paint- will be completly demoralised after a few rounds and practise!! because they will be rubbish. Just that first score under a 100 on a proper golf course is a milestone(playing to an effective 30 handicap!)

Mac, they are being unrealistic if they think they can just go out there and be good and I don't think anyone does, of course, just as you can't pick up the guitar or run a marathon without practice, however I refuse to believe that the course management of 18 handicappers are so good that changing their shot selection would only result in an improvement of 2 shots. Just take a look next time you are out and see how many people pull out driver without a second thought with disastrous results and they never seem to learn.

Every golfer has the ability to be better than they currently through course management and because chipping and putting, the core of the scoring game don't require a great deal of coordination, skill or technical ability to make improvements on. There are also no physical limitations. A pensioner or a youth can be equally as good as an adult.

Mac!!!!


SR I have played alot of golf with alot of golfers- possibly not many 18 handicappers these days I will admit.. but the occasionaly 12-16 handicapers..

now you are saying you can improve 18 handicappers to become better than them with course management!!

Many of these players may have the odd niggle in there swing. its not about course management its about the basics first and foremost. If you dont have a solid game - course management is useless.

Course management needs to be truely thought about when you hit a 12 or so handicap for me..

Picture this..

a 18 handicapper is pulling his driver out on a 420 yard par 4..

I explain to him- whats the point in hitting the driver- you put that in the rough last hole- just hit an iron..

So he hits a 180 yard iron down the fairway- he is now left with a shot of 240.. he now wants to hit his 3 wood and push to the green. i tell him its a high risk shot- so just hit the driving iron or 4 iron up there and go for a pitch and a putt.

The player does this .

now he wants to pitch right at the hole.. problem is the hole is on the back of the green and behind is a slope to a bunker- so i say look just play it to the middle right of the green and leave yourself a 20 footer

he now has just made a bogey- if he plays the first 3 shots well!(the problem with most 18 handicappers is that they havent got the basics right in the first place. they dont practise enough or they dont practise the right things..

It is so easy to practise the wrong thing and never improve- infact you can practise major faults into your game and seriously hinder your development.


learn the game then the shots- then utilise course management..


And a big point as well. If a player utilses course management when he is developing he wont get the practise of playing the big golf shots, which is required at the higher level..

Oakey, surely you understand that most 18 handicappers, do not play percentage golf. They strive for par when it's beyond their ability, they should be shooting 90, but with a little thought they might well shoot 15 bogeys, but if they limit their chances of double bogeys and get the occasional par they will come down.

I've never seen an 18 handicapper who played the percentage shot often enough and also didn't have the potential to be better.

Furthermore, there are many single figure golfers who also can't play those types of "big" shots with regularity or confidence (i think all shots count the same myself) there are no big or small shots. However, on course in a competition is not the place to try them. If a player thinks he's going to get better by simply playing a round a week, how does he expect to make any more than glacial progress?

Golf is no way the most difficult sport, that's the point.

We have a totally different golf philosphy first and formost..

However

The 18 handicappers need to sort out there game first and formost..

All of them can get better- but telling them about course management over there true faults in there game is counter productive.. I would put money on the fact that you couldnt get an 18 handicap to 12 or single figures from course management only!

"Golf is no way the most difficult sport, that's the point"

I personally cant think of a sport that takes longer and more time to get to a competitive club level..

"Furthermore, there are many single figure golfers who also can't play those types of "big" shots with regularity or confidence "

It depends on what you class as a big shot SR. This is very different for different golfers.

Golf is about making the tough shots(for the golfer) easy.. That can only be acheived with practise and good tecnical ability.

Not just settling for your limitations.. yes this should be done in a medal situation.. But not in all.

Perhaps not all 18 handicappers, some just are rubbish, but you could improve a great many with course management. The remainder of the shots required could be gained by simplifying the short game, putting and reducing backswing and swing speed.

I think in GOlf there is certainly more scope to get a player better than in a reactive sport like Tennis or Football where decisions are more instinctive and touch is required. Many people will just never be able to trap a ball or put away a smash due to dreadful coordination.
Much of golfs difficulty is down to the mental element which is perhaps the most difficult thing about golf and where it is more difficult than other sports.

Wiithin golf there is so much scope for improvement.

That is what is so complex about the game..

So many things to improve all the time..

The mental game is so much easier when you are happy with your game.. If you arnt there then the mental game is tougher because the fear is there.

The better your all round game is- the easier it is to make good decisions on the golf course.