Indian Wells Day 9 (MOTD: Murray vs Del Potro)

First topic message reminder :

It's time for the first MS1000 of the year! Red and I will be updating the opening post each day with previews of matches that catch the eye, as well as completed results and draws once the tournament moves along a little. If anyone wants to contribute, please do shoot one of us a PM!

96 players are in action with 32 seeds getting a bye into the second round, meaning that as Cogen highlighted, this is the first event since Wimbledon 2011 (at least) where all of the top players in the world are in action. A few of the narratives are the possibility that Federer could be overhauled by Murray at #2, Djokovic looking to continue his unbeaten start to the season, Nadal's triumphant return to hard courts, and numerous other players in reasonable nick - can they challenge for the title, or at least create a few upsets?

Prize: A cool $1 million ($5.4 million purse), and the invaluable 1000 ranking points.
Defending champion is Roger Federer, who defeated John Isner in the 2012 final.
Updated draw on the ATP site.

Preview from Red:


Andy Murray is on the hunt for his maiden Indian Wells title. He has reached the quarter final here, for the first time since he reached the final in 2009, but has a tough task to complete if he is to get his hands on the trophy. He is up against Argentine Juan Martin Del Potro in the quarters today, and if he gets through that he can potentially face Djokovic and Nadal in the next two rounds. In his Round 4 match Murray was not at his best, and looked irritated at the end of his tight 2 set win against Berlocq. Berlocq complained that Murray was taking too long between points, Murray complained that Berlocq was grunting too loudly, and well... I think Berlocq is not on Andy's Christmas card list anymore. With the world number 2 ranking potentially on the line if he reaches the final, Murray fans will be hoping a dismissal of Del Potro will help lighten his mood.

Juan Martin Del Potro has never won a Masters 100 title before. Will this be the week he breaks his duck? He has been on good form so far this tournament, an improvement to his relatively mediocre start to 2013. However he has not yet been tested, and with all respects to Bjorn Phau, a fixture against Andy Murray will be a real step up. In Dubai Del Potro tested Djokovic in both sets, but mentally let himself down in the key moments. Will the same happen here against the Scot? The Argentinian's record against Murray isn't great, and he will have to raise his game if he wants to have a chance of winning.

Key Tactics: Murray has a convincing 5-1 lead over Del Potro in the H2H, with Juan's only win coming on clay in 2009. Murray won the last two matches these two played (also both in 2009), and he will fancy himself to continue this run of wins and extend it today. For Del Potro to win, he must be extremely aggressive, in longer rallies Murray will coast. The higher bounce of the surface should suit Del Potro, as Murray's tactic of the low slice which has worked so well against him will be negated. Thus the onus is on Del Potro to force the play, and big serving and aggressive hitting will be his only chance of winning.

Predictions: I think Murray has too much variety and nous for Del Potro, I see the 2012 USO champion winning in straight sets: 6-3 6-4.

lags72 wrote:
Job done !

I said both Federer and Nadal were in the wrong last night.
I also agreed with Barry that harsh punishments should be used against coaches who talk... but this doesn't absolve Federer the blame for what he did either.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Federer was completely in the wrong it doesn't matter what ex-players (all usually so far up his backside anyway) think. The challenge should be immediate if you wish to stop the point: I think it's bad enough too many umpires let a player first miss his shot before challenging, but letting your opponent make his return, then miss your volley, before deciding you want to challenge? sorry but it's ridiculous. If you genuinely think your serve was out you stop playing the point, at the very least there's a hesitation. Federer showed none of that, it was only after missing his volley (off a cracking return) that he thought about it.

Nadal of course was equally in the wrong. It doesn't matter if he wanted his coaches to say anything or not: he knows coaching is against the rules having already been pinged for it in the past, and his box are his responsibility. His excuse-making was at best, incredibly clumsy, and at worst a downright attempt to lie his way out of trouble.

Neither player covered himself in glory.

Precisely, MFC in full agreement, lets just discontinue the Nike/Edberg awards forever!!! It has been permanently soiled.

Red: your predictions are in danger of making you lose credibility. First we had Gulbis winning in straights yesterday and now old man and poor form Federer doing the same. I don't think I'm alone in coming to the conclusion that these are not just the opposite of what you want to happen but also the opposite of what you genuinely believe will happen.

bogbrush wrote:

Red wrote:Great preview Silver.

Personally I think Federer will win this in straight sets.

Exactly who do you think you're fooling? Not a person on the forum (1) thinks Federer is playing well enough to win, or (2) think you actually elieve that.

Honestly amrit, you can change the Nic but this kind of stuff is like a signature.

lol Bobgrush.

I am being genuine though, I felt Nadal's movement against Gulbis wasn't great, and he said post match his knee was 'so-so' and not where he wanted it to be.
Federer I thought survived well against the Wawinka (a player who is playing well this season so far) onslaught, and was looking in good touch.
I see him as pretty heavy favourite tonight.

lags72 wrote:Red: your predictions are in danger of making you lose credibility. First we had Gulbis winning in straights yesterday and now old man and poor form Federer doing the same.

Gulbis was a set up and at 4-5 was just two points away from winning the match exactly as I had predicted... so I wasn't that far off.

The bookies make Federer the favourite with Nadal best priced at just over evens (11/10).

Socal, once we've wrapped up the Chairgate investigation, we are gonna have to look at Challenge-gate. We may have to postpone the Sweargate investigation still hanging over from the Murray match at AO.

I can hardly keep up with the controversy the Swiss maestro is generating.

I'm amazed at that after the matches yesterday, TSJ.

HM Murdoch wrote:Socal, once we've wrapped up the Chairgate investigation, we are gonna have to look at Challenge-gate. We may have to postpone the Sweargate investigation still hanging over from the Murray match at AO.

I can hardly keep up with the controversy the Swiss maestro is generating.

Federer is playing similarly to how he played this time in 2011, looks sluggish and lacks confidence. Rafa will make him doubt like he always does, I see forehands spraying all over the place

Federer better gives Nadal a walkover and go rest his back.

Red wrote:Federer was asking the umpire to go against the rule and listen to his plea.. and frankly his protestations were overboard (especially considering he was incorrect about the rules here).
Now I'm not saying this absorbs the Nadal camp of any blame... I just don't like it if we focus on all the negatives of one object, but totally ignore/ dress up the negatives of something else.
Nadal has got annoyed before at his camp for shouting things out, as I said in USO he had a massive breakdown with Toni because he kept on telling him things to do... and Nadal did not agree with them. Then Nadal on purpose did the opposite to what Toni was saying (I think this is against Istomin as I was saying earlier), and thus the breakdown in relationship.
I agree with Barry that coaches should be punished heavily if they coach on court.

IF Nadal did that- I certainly would not bring it up and tear into him.

For some reason I doubt this statement very much.

doubt all you want... I've called my favorite players out for all type of things.

socal1976 wrote:It was in no way reasonable Ruffin, rose tinted spectacles and some fed apologism if I may be so blunt. The tennis channel guys did not agree with him I was watching the thing. Plus isn't this his friend stan wawrinka who he got so upset at Djokovic for calling for an MTO in the match against him and lambasted Djokovic for having the audacity to make use of an established rule. When has a player ever, ever in the history of the challenge system been allowed a challenge two shots after the disputted call? Why would federer demand to speak to the supervising official especially in light of who his opponent is. Haven't you abused poor stan enough?

The tennis channel guys certainly did say "as a player, I know how he feels" and kept saying his arguements were well within the "book" and not "out of line" etc.. They even went into a dialogue about how "Federer rarely shows us this side, so it's a big deal" ...... They showed the replay that he called it within 1.98 seconds.. Surely you saw that, and then went on to say how it was such a bang bang play, Fed has a point. They also rightly said- per the actual rules, Federer was wrong and was never going to get the overrule..
I think you way overestimate the decor that is expected amongst friends in the heat of battle. I was around boxers who were best friends that would try and kill each other in the ring, then have dinner the next night... and not think once about not taking every advantage. It's nonsense to think Federer if he felt he needed to talk to the supervisor to not do do becasue Stan was on the other side... Nadal and Djoko are good friends-- your telling me that Nadal doesn't use his delays,etc with Djoko?

So the bookies make Roger very slight favourite. Personally, I see Rafa as very slight favourite. Anyway, hope it's a good match.

Like most here I strongly fancy Nadal to win tonight. It's his first proper big match since his return and I think conditions and the mobility issues if his opponent are massively in his favour.

The ball is bouncing ridiculously high out there apparently, music to Rafa's ears. Roger will have to deal with loads of shoulder high backhands and I think it will crack. Added to his back problem, I don't think Rafa could have chosen a better set of circumstances for his first big 4 match.

With the high bounce I also fancy Delpo to knock out Murray. Murray usually slices him to death and keeps the ball low, but that will be very difficult.

Impressed with how Anderson dug himself out of that hole.

Come on Kando! I'm not a fan but I really don't like Berdbrain.

If I were a betting man then my money would be on Rafa tonight. My only reservation is how the injury will hold out under maximum stress.

The injury belonging to whom? If The Fed's back isn't great and Nadal is yet to face a real top drawer player (no offence Daveed) then it might, but hopefully not, be a case of who breaks down first.

I mean Nadal's injury as Federer's back is nothing serious as we keep hearing about it but he has never broken down with a back twinge/niggle.

Anderson is playing out of his skin to hang with Berdy. Impressive.

Man what is with the DF's on big points this week??? Bizarre.

Double on set point, such a shame for Anderson.

HM Murdoch wrote:Socal, once we've wrapped up the Chairgate investigation, we are gonna have to look at Challenge-gate. We may have to postpone the Sweargate investigation still hanging over from the Murray match at AO.

I can hardly keep up with the controversy the Swiss maestro is generating.

Murdoch I don't know if even our crack team has the resources to corral the rising tide of racquet wieldng rackateer. Already Pippa a witness to chairgate has had to have her security team doubled and is a nervous wreck out of fear of repraisals. Simply the letters RF together in a piece of text sends her into tears and the site of lindt chocolates or the Rolex theme song sends her into such a swoon that sedatives are required. No tell when the witnesses to that crime against humanity and nature will ever recover.

TRuffin wrote:

socal1976 wrote:It was in no way reasonable Ruffin, rose tinted spectacles and some fed apologism if I may be so blunt. The tennis channel guys did not agree with him I was watching the thing. Plus isn't this his friend stan wawrinka who he got so upset at Djokovic for calling for an MTO in the match against him and lambasted Djokovic for having the audacity to make use of an established rule. When has a player ever, ever in the history of the challenge system been allowed a challenge two shots after the disputted call? Why would federer demand to speak to the supervising official especially in light of who his opponent is. Haven't you abused poor stan enough?

The tennis channel guys certainly did say "as a player, I know how he feels" and kept saying his arguements were well within the "book" and not "out of line" etc.. They even went into a dialogue about how "Federer rarely shows us this side, so it's a big deal" ...... They showed the replay that he called it within 1.98 seconds.. Surely you saw that, and then went on to say how it was such a bang bang play, Fed has a point. They also rightly said- per the actual rules, Federer was wrong and was never going to get the overrule..
I think you way overestimate the decor that is expected amongst friends in the heat of battle. I was around boxers who were best friends that would try and kill each other in the ring, then have dinner the next night... and not think once about not taking every advantage. It's nonsense to think Federer if he felt he needed to talk to the supervisor to not do do becasue Stan was on the other side... Nadal and Djoko are good friends-- your telling me that Nadal doesn't use his delays,etc with Djoko?

Completely disagree, when Novak and Tipsy play they are very restrained and respectful to the point that it seems uncomfortable. 2 seconds on a tennis court is an eternity. And the rules are the rules, Roger knows them. No player in the history the challenge system has been allowed the leeway he was demanding incredulously. If he did get the call it would have been a huge, huge injustice to his friend Wawrinka. If someone had tried to do that to Federer he would have been fuming. You don't want to call him on it that is fine. You claim to have called fed out for lots of things but not on this site and not to my recollection. He wasn't a Tinkywinky about it, he didn't curse, but he was out of order and attempted to pressure the umpire into screwing Wawrinka his friend. As I said, we need to simply discontinue the Edberg Award at this point the idea that Federer is the greatest sport in tennis history is laughable. Murdoch did an excellent piece and provided a link of how brutally divaish and nasty fed was to Djoko in the early days. Callig him a faker for well documented allergy and respiratory issues, wading in voluntarily into controversies djoko had with other players long before the "king is dead comments" etc. In short, Roger is a good sport, if he likes you and or is not threatened by you, hardly the exemplary paragon of sportsmanship he is made out to be. When he doesn't like you can be as catty as they come.

Danny_1982 wrote:Like most here I strongly fancy Nadal to win tonight. It's his first proper big match since his return and I think conditions and the mobility issues if his opponent are massively in his favour.

The ball is bouncing ridiculously high out there apparently, music to Rafa's ears. Roger will have to deal with loads of shoulder high backhands and I think it will crack. Added to his back problem, I don't think Rafa could have chosen a better set of circumstances for his first big 4 match.

With the high bounce I also fancy Delpo to knock out Murray. Murray usually slices him to death and keeps the ball low, but that will be very difficult.

Am with you all the way on the Fedal match Danny.

With Rafa's confidence and form growing by the day, and with Federer's far from convincing performance in Rotterdam and Dubai continuing here at IW, it's difficult to see anything but a Rafa victory.

Whenever these two iconic names appear together on an OOP schedule there is always a special frisson of anticipation. But in the wider scheme of things I'm really not sure that this matchup can ever again be what it once was. Federer - now in the twilight of his career vs Nadal, still very much in his prime years.

Silver - great preview, and wrt prediction I too would go for Rafa avenging his defeat at last year's event but in straights rather than three, ie an exact reversal of the 2012 outcome.

Don't really know what to make of Delpo vs Murray but am very much looking forward to their first clash in quite some time.

The reason Rafala will win, is simply that he has had 8 months out and won't be on an empty gas tank like Fed and the others. With Federer using tennis as 'filler' these days, the bookies will make a lot of money from this disaster.

Berdych won, how long till Fedal match?

Have to say I find Kevin Anderson about as interesting to watch as Granollers. Dull as dishwater....a long handled seed plough.

What do you have against farmers Lydian, farmers everywhere must be insulted by your comparisons of their noble careers to player's like Granollers and Anderson.

Lags

Yeah I doubt they will ever produce a match of the quality of their classics. It's the gold plated match up of a generation and maybe ever. The last one I can think of even in the discussion is Sampras Agassi... But it isn't what it was.

I'd like to see Roger coming to the net quite a lot. Try to rush Rafa. I always feel because of the BH issue he has against Rafa his forehand has to be almost perfect to beat him.

For the first time in years though there are a few unknowns about the match up. Will both players be up to it physically? Rafa has been great since he came back but is he up to beating a fellow big 4 player yet?

It should be exciting. Shame it's late and I'll be asleep! Thank got for sky+HD

Danny_1982 wrote:Shame it's late and I'll be asleep!

Bit of a bummer if you went to Indian Wells to see the Women's Quarters today.

was really hoping Fed would get Rafa in his draw, and was following both to make sure it happened. But after watching Fed last night, and his back issues I am dreading it to be quite honest. Dont think its going to be pretty and his head 2 head is going to get even worse.

Red wrote:

Danny_1982 wrote:Shame it's late and I'll be asleep!

Some of us have work at 8 in the morning!

Danny_1982 wrote:

Red wrote:

Danny_1982 wrote:Shame it's late and I'll be asleep!

Some of us have work at 8 in the morning!

The match will be over by then, don't worry

With respect to the Federer incident. I can agree with the chair's call being the correct one and at the same understand why Fed was a bit hacked off. Even mugs like me who play the game like me know the situation whereby a serve you are certain lands out is played and returned catching them server of balance who often has to instinctively lunging at the ball while his brain is telling him ' hey that was out'!!!!

Fed's challenge was actually very quick compared to the typical situation where there is not a second shot played. There was no long walk up the court, appeal to the chiair umpire, or look up at the box. But the fact is he played the ball and then challenged and that is a tough position to put the chair ump in asking for a challenge (unfortunately the chair missed the call too compounding the problem.) I'm certain had Wawrinka netted the return he would have spent a challenge.

The Nadalia 'coaching' I find more humourous than offensive. I have seen so many instances of coaches barking out quick bits of advice or give nods or gestures that clearly going beyond any definition of encouragement. Granted Rafa's camp seem to get caught up in this more often than most but what is the benefit of it?

A simple solution to this problem by the way would be to seat coaches far enough away from the court such that players would be unable to make easy verbal or eye contact with them.

Nice points QP.

Socal, nothing against farmers except I don't like watching agricultural, uninspiring tennis. Granollers, Anderson, Querrey...zzzzzzz. I watched Querrey v Djokovic this morning and Sam made Novak look like the genius of McEnroe in comparison. Indeed, if you watched Isner, Querrey and Anderson from the neck down only, you'd be hard placed to tell them apart. No flair, no variety, nothing beyond big serve & big FH 1-2 combos. I love it when I see a match scheduled between say Isner and Querrey, I get loads more done around the house, etc.

lydian wrote:Nice points QP.

Socal, nothing against farmers except I don't like watching agricultural, uninspiring tennis. Granollers, Anderson, Querrey...zzzzzzz. I watched Querrey v Djokovic this morning and Sam made Novak look like the genius of McEnroe in comparison. Indeed, if you watched Isner, Querrey and Anderson from the neck down only, you'd be hard placed to tell them apart. No flair, no variety, nothing beyond big serve & big FH 1-2 combos. I love it when I see a match scheduled between say Isner and Querrey, I get loads more done around the house, etc.

Talk about as dull a matchup as imaginable Isner v. Querrey. Novak is a tennis genius lydian hopefully you will come to realize it soon enough if you watch with an open mind, hey I couldn't stand Mac back in the day because I was connors man and then when he got old I wished he was 10 years younger.

Cheers lags, I think it could be over in straights as well, all depends on knees and backs.

ryan86 wrote:Bit of a bummer if you went to Indian Wells to see the Women's Quarters today.

Only just noticed the withdrawals, blimey. Harsh on the fans of the ladies, hopefully they're both alright too.

Edit: Gah, too many edits!

quietplease wrote:With respect to the Federer incident. I can agree with the chair's call being the correct one and at the same understand why Fed was a bit hacked off. Even mugs like me who play the game like me know the situation whereby a serve you are certain lands out is played and returned catching them server of balance who often has to instinctively lunging at the ball while his brain is telling him ' hey that was out'!!!!

Fed's challenge was actually very quick compared to the typical situation where there is not a second shot played. There was no long walk up the court, appeal to the chiair umpire, or look up at the box. But the fact is he played the ball and then challenged and that is a tough position to put the chair ump in asking for a challenge (unfortunately the chair missed the call too compounding the problem.) I'm certain had Wawrinka netted the return he would have spent a challenge.

The Nadalia 'coaching' I find more humourous than offensive. I have seen so many instances of coaches barking out quick bits of advice or give nods or gestures that clearly going beyond any definition of encouragement. Granted Rafa's camp seem to get caught up in this more often than most but what is the benefit of it?

A simple solution to this problem by the way would be to seat coaches far enough away from the court such that players would be unable to make easy verbal or eye contact with them.

Good post QP, I disagree on fed, I actually didn't find it a very endearing or sportsman like conduct on fed's part. The rule is clear you can't go back and challenge the previous shot or shots period and end of story, no player in the history of the challenge system has gotten the kind of broad discretion and latitude fed was pushing for. And to take it to the point where you call the supervisor. He was clearly and unequivocally in the wrong and it was frankly a stupid and unfair argument to even make and then to be nasty towards the official for denying you what would have been an incredible violation of the actual rule and the standard practice of how it has been applied.

As for the Nadal incident he has been playing long enough he should tell his coaches to shut up, he is smart enough to figure it out, and he shouldn't lie about it. The fact that he got caught with his pants down in such a public way did make it funny. I actually don't think the coaching ban is a good rule myself. I think a cornerman like boxing might make it more interesting for the viewers not less. But as long as that is the rule everyone should follow it for an even playing field.

Yikes, high quality tennis straight away. Perhaps rumours of their demise were greatly exaggerated...we'll see.

Nadal looks up for this

Federer did seem in a crabby mood through the later half of that match and pushed the complaint too far.
Nadal did as well but I think he likes to carry on because it motivates him somehow in the sense he feels the officials have it out for him and this,gives him extra motivation vs. throwing off his concentration.

Did you notice a short while later when a Gulbis long return went well long and Nadal had to stop play to challenge ( successfully )?
He threw ,up,his hands in pained expression after the review opening calling out the chair umpire for not overruling an obvious call as if to say ' I have to play against Gulbis and you too?'

Nadal looks very sharp indeed, returning well in particular.

Fed down 0-15 three games in a row, and 0-30 two games in a row. Alarm bells ringing

6-4 Nadal written all over this set

If the serve kicks in he will make a match of it but my sense is Rafa's ground game will outclass Roger's tonight

Fed's serving like a beast when he needs to so far, but he can't afford to keep getting pushed. I'm surprised at how much the ball's springing off the turf so far?

Good hold for Fed there. CAS, I dunno...

Neither player looking sharp for me. Roger mentally inhibited against Rafa as usual, and Rafa putting shots into the net he normally wouldn't. Struggling with low balls.

i could have sworn Federer just pulled up there