Changes for the wales match.

Thought I'd create this thread in the hope any WUMS would be left to the match thread.

Who would you change for the England team next week?

Personally I'd start with B. Youngs over care, T. Youngs over Hartley and bring Morgan back in as I think we lacked carriers. I think Farrell needs to start too.

Will Farrell be fit in time? Can't find any details on whether he was expected to miss this one game or whether there's any risk of prolonged absence.

Change your wingers would be my option. Both have looked average to poor aside from the Scotland game and I think that is reflected in England's try tally since then. Ashton, for all his plaudits who vehemently try to defend him, deserves much of the criticism he's been getting of late in the face of today.

I thought Farrell was only going to be out for the Italy match but I could be wrong.

Wait and see on Farrell, but there was nothing wrong with Floods performance. He passed well, kicked his goals, made his tackles, and took the ball forward in hand.

Youngs for Care, Morgan hopefully in the back row, do something with the back 3.

Elsewhere just get players to turn up.

Youngs and Farrell are far better players than Care and Flood in my (Welsh) opinion. I think England will stick with Ashton just because they haven't blooded anyone else really. I look forward to him tackling George North.

I don't think Wales will fear England much if it was just based on today's performance. Wales have a much better scrum and will target that area.

Really looking forward to next Saturday. 7 points Wales need to win by. Bring it on.

Marler
Youngs
Cole
Launchberrys
Parking
Croft
Robshaw
Wood
Youngs
Farrell
Brown
Barrit
Tuilagi
Ashton
Goode

Will Farrell knowsit? He'd be good in an anchor type role.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Wait and see on Farrell, but there was nothing wrong with Floods performance. He passed well, kicked his goals, made his tackles, and took the ball forward in hand.

Youngs for Care, Morgan hopefully in the back row, do something with the back 3.

Elsewhere just get players to turn up.

Flood missed 2 easy kicks to touch & lost momentum for England.

doctornickolas wrote:Youngs and Farrell are far better players than Care and Flood in my (Welsh) opinion. I think England will stick with Ashton just because they haven't blooded anyone else really. I look forward to him tackling George North.

I don't think Wales will fear England much if it was just based on today's performance. Wales have a much better scrum and will target that area.

Really looking forward to next Saturday. 7 points Wales need to win by. Bring it on.

I don't think the welsh scrum is that much stronger, if we play like today we'll struggle at the breakdown.

georgestowersbiceps wrote:Will Farrell knowsit? He'd be good in an anchor type role.

Would you describe those tracksuits as burgundy?

nathan wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:Youngs and Farrell are far better players than Care and Flood in my (Welsh) opinion. I think England will stick with Ashton just because they haven't blooded anyone else really. I look forward to him tackling George North.

I don't think Wales will fear England much if it was just based on today's performance. Wales have a much better scrum and will target that area.

Really looking forward to next Saturday. 7 points Wales need to win by. Bring it on.

I don't think the welsh scrum is that much stronger, if we play like today we'll struggle at the breakdown.

Based on the fact England were pretty equal with Italy in the scrum and Wales absolutely destroyed them. I think England's front row is not as good as the Welsh one. Hartley and Youngs are not great scrummagers and Coles is over rated in that department. Also I think England don't get alot of grunt from their second rows. I think Wales will have the upper hand there. ales also munched the French at scrum time whereas England struggled against them. Just saying.

Flood ran with the ball quite well, but thought his passing lacked any sharpness and it was far too obvious to the Italian defence where the ball was going with plenty of time to react to it. That might be down to lack of game time, but it just doesn't fill me with confidence as it's been a telltale sign of previous performances when he's not been in top form.

I also think it doesn't suit Flood's game to have Goode coming into the receiver role too often, they got in each other's way a bit too much, maybe a case of too many cooks...

Brown led the way for England with meters gained and defenders beaten again this game. Hes done more with the ball in hand than any other england player, and got screwed out of a chance to finally put his name on the scoresheet by Clancy blowing up rather than waiting for advantage.

On the flip side though he was twice involved in Italian breaks through poor positioning in defence.

If he plays it surely has to be at 15. Lancaster knows this back 3 does not work. It has to change.

doctornickolas wrote:

nathan wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:Youngs and Farrell are far better players than Care and Flood in my (Welsh) opinion. I think England will stick with Ashton just because they haven't blooded anyone else really. I look forward to him tackling George North.

I don't think Wales will fear England much if it was just based on today's performance. Wales have a much better scrum and will target that area.

Really looking forward to next Saturday. 7 points Wales need to win by. Bring it on.

I don't think the welsh scrum is that much stronger, if we play like today we'll struggle at the breakdown.

Based on the fact England were pretty equal with Italy in the scrum and Wales absolutely destroyed them. I think England's front row is not as good as the Welsh one. Hartley and Youngs are not great scrummagers and Coles is over rated in that department. Also I think England don't get alot of grunt from their second rows. I think Wales will have the upper hand there. ales also munched the French at scrum time whereas England struggled against them. Just saying.

Englands scrum dominated the Italians a few times today, regardless you can't base your outcome on 80 minutes of rugby.

The changes i would make for next week is.

Brown in at 15, Goode on the bench.

This is that leave a space at 14? Who do England have in the EPS to play 14? Wade, Varndell, May? I t will not be easy to find a good enough 14 to replace Brown.

Farral at 10, Flood on the bench.

The rest, barring injuries would stay the same.

doctornickolas wrote:

nathan wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:Youngs and Farrell are far better players than Care and Flood in my (Welsh) opinion. I think England will stick with Ashton just because they haven't blooded anyone else really. I look forward to him tackling George North.

I don't think Wales will fear England much if it was just based on today's performance. Wales have a much better scrum and will target that area.

Really looking forward to next Saturday. 7 points Wales need to win by. Bring it on.

I don't think the welsh scrum is that much stronger, if we play like today we'll struggle at the breakdown.

Based on the fact England were pretty equal with Italy in the scrum and Wales absolutely destroyed them. I think England's front row is not as good as the Welsh one. Hartley and Youngs are not great scrummagers and Coles is over rated in that department. Also I think England don't get alot of grunt from their second rows. I think Wales will have the upper hand there. ales also munched the French at scrum time whereas England struggled against them. Just saying.

I don't know which games you were watching, but neither Italy or Wales lost a scrum against each other and Wales lost 3 scrums against France from their 7 whilst France lost only 2 from their 9.

15- Brown
14- Ashton, gods know he doesn't deserve it
13- Tuilagi
12- Barritt or 36
11- Wade
10- Farrell if available
9- Youngs
8- Morgan if available
7- Robshaw c
6- Wood
5- Launchbury
4- Parling
3- Cole
2- Youngs
1- makes no difference, either Mako or Marler

15 brown
14 ashton
13 barritt /tuilagi
12 36/barritt
11 tuilagi/strettle



Would like to see foden in mix but doubt it will happen.

If Morgan isn't back we need Haskell or B Vunipola. Probably the former given experience. Our scrum is at best, ok. Good technically but there's not much weight coming through.A Wood, Robshaw and Croft back row would be nowhere near physical enough, or powerful enough at scrum time. I know we're desperate to get our marquee names all in but it'll backfire. The Welsh pack is very big and fit, we need to match it.

Brown once again made our most metres in only 4 carries and was a danger in attack but missed 2 tackles. He shouldn't play wing. Goode's stats not looking good

From a Welsh pov I think I'd prefer to see Farrell starting at 10.

Wood needs to be back at 6 and Morgan at 8 if fit. Youngs of course to 9 and if fit Farrell to 10 - Billy comes in for Barritt and that's about it for me as changing the back 3 at this stage may wreak of a little panic

Any news on parling,is he ok for next week?If not who comes in,probably shouted down but I think deacon would be perfect for this game.

wouldn't make wholesale changes, but would agree the '"subs" didn't really take their chance. Care had a useful first 20 minutes or so but was poor afterwards, while Flood just doesn't control the game the way Farrell can. I agree with whoever said his passing was a little obvious, and his kicking from hand was pretty poor too.

So Youngs and Farrell (if fit) to start, Marler vs Vunipola could go either way IMO, while if Morgan is fit he has to come back in. Other than that, wouldn't change anything.

Flood was poor - in particular his kicking from hand lost England momentum when they could have taken control of the game, and his pasing and gainline play flatters to deceive for me. I don't think he and Goode complement each other either. Hopefully Farrell will be fit. Also, I thought Barritt killed off some promising moves by taking the ball into contact, and I'd give Billy the start.

I wouldn't panic about the performance - this is an inexperienced side, they were always going to have ups and downs. They did well to hold on at the end when they had completely lost control of the game. I also thought Italy played pretty well.

If Morgan and Farrell are fit they both return IMO.

1.Mako or Marler - both have played pretty well but would love to have Corbs...
2.Youngs
3.Cole
4.Parling
5.Launchberry
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

9.Youngs
10.Farrell

11.May - A huge prospect and the best all round option we have for the wings IMO
12.Barritt
13.Tuilagi
14.Foden - pace
15.Brown - our best FB so lets pick him there, harsh on Goode but I'd like some pace in the back 3

16.Hartley 17.Marler/Mako 18.Wilson 19.Lawes 20.Croft (harsh on Haskell I know) 21.Care 22.Flood 23.Twelvetrees

I know Foden/May are very unlikely to happen and Goode will probably keep his place but still that's my shout. A quick note on Goode as I don't think he's a poor player at all, in fact if Brown were injured I'd pick him in an instant but Brown has been the stand out FB in the jeff for a couple of seasons now and has played very well at Int level this season so let's pick him at 15 please!

1. Marler
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola

09. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Foden
12. Barritt
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Brown

16. Hartley
17. Vunipola
18. Wilson
19. Attwood
20. Haskell
21. Care
22. Flood
23. Goode

*I hear Launchberry may struggle to be fit.

If Launchbury's out we're fecked - his work-rate is invaluable.

lawes has a good workrate too, the question there is does lancaster bring another lock on to the bench, i suspect he'll rely on the back row options he has to cover the 2nd row.

otherwise i agree with everyone else youngs and farrell prob come back in and loose head could go either way but lancaster will try to keep the same team as much as possible.

obviously wood at 8 isnt ideal and we would rather have morgan there if available but if morgan isnt available we have to stick with wood, billy V is a long term option but you cant bring someone in for debut in a grand slam deciding test. more likely croft will start at 6 to offer more of a running threat in the back row.

the back 3 hasnt really worked as an attacking unit in this tournament but i think it has to be retained for continuity, there will already be at least 4 changes any more is risky. personally im still really disappointed wade has not been involved in this 6 nations, lancasters only real selection error in my opinion, he could have been the difference in a game like yesterdays.

with a 6 day turnaround SL cannot afford to make wholesale changes. I have not re-watched the match and as I was there and may have missed many bits. Very disappointed that my £250 spent taking my wife (Happy Mother's day) and 2 sons was not better entertainment. Several aspects appear in need of fixing:
1. Back row balance without a proper no.8. SL made a mistake not picking BV. You cannot rush Morgan back in having not played since the Scotland game, so he will probably have to play the same back row, but this is not ideal.
2. MV did well at 3 but needs to maintain his form in the 2nd half.
3. We were outplayed in the 2nd half which was unacceptable. Hopefully that was just a bad day at the office and no need to panic.
4. Flood is not a 10 who will take this side to glory. The future must be Farrell and Burns. If Farrell is not fit then Flood will have to start as Burns is not yet match fit.
5. The attacking threat of Barritt is non-existent. The ABs match clearly looking like a one off. 36 and Manu may be the better bet there, but clearly SL won't make changes there and against the big welsh midfield i can understand why.
6. Between Goode and Ashton we really do not look likely to finish anything off. Foden must come back. The whole point of Goode is to be 1st receiver of 2/3/4 phase ball as Farrell is no good there. Pick Burns long term and we don't need that and Foden can return.

Momentum now all with Wales and I expect them to win. That will reinforce the point that currently no side deserves a GS as no one is good enough.

Overall the quality was shocking across the 3 matches. Hopefully next weekend will deliver some better and more entertaining rugby?

Seems to me that the critical thing is to get the breakdown working properly. England were good at times but too often were not hitting it with the intensity they did in the NZ, Scotland and Ireland matches. Italy were slowing the ball down and getting turnovers as a result and that was the root cause of a lot of the problems.

Perhaps part of the problem was not having a big ball carrier in the back row to force things over the gainline and create a bit of space to attack - not sure what the answer is there if Morgan isn't match fit.

The difference between the first 20 minutes or so, where England were playing with some real intensity, and the rest of the match, where Italy were allowed back into the game, was pretty telling.

England have got to treat the Wales game in the same way they approached the ABs game in the autumn. They are up against a team who are finding form and have the capability to outplay them - to counter that they will have to work harder as a team and starve them of room to play. If they can do that, mistakes will happen and England may be able to profit from it.

I'd like to see Farrell and Morgan back in the side if possible, and a back three of Foden, Ashton and Brown (on the basis that it's not the right time to try an untried player and Foden is most likely to get the best out of Ashton).

Forget Foden. An on form fit Foden is a must but there has to be evidence that he is in the right shape.

Yesterdays match highlighted just how poor the England attacking tactics are, the players have good ball handling skills compared to prior years, but the lines being run, the vision and thought for those lines and the pace that they were executed at were all well below the required Int level.

1. Marler for Mako, Mako played well and to be fair to him the scrum only seemed to struggle once Parling went off. I have no idea but could Parling add a lot more technically then Lawes does when pushing? Marler for me though is just a bit more solid and has more experience.

2. Lawes for Parling, this worries me a little, hopefully Geoff will be fit and can start.


3. We seriously need Wood back at 6, he's look shoite so far at 8 and the coaches are slowly wrecking one of our best players. Get a feckin big lump in at 8 and get them running hard and direct at the gainline again and again.

4. Youngs should come back in for Care and Flood should stay at 10, with better tactics and more coherency around him Flood would of looked a 1000 times better yesterday, he still played well and there's no need to rush Farrel back.

5. Take a good long hard look at the centres, they really aren't offering enough at the moment, it gets to something when Scotland and Italy both show more creativity in their backs then ours. Twelvetrees really should have been blooded more often before now (how many times have we said that in the past about players? De ja vu...) so now it's a case of banking on him or sticking with the current players and hoping they have their one good game in four.

6. Move Brown to 15, everything good in attack for England on Sunday was created by Brown or he had a hand in it. Get him to his best position and let him loose! As to the wingers I have no idea, Lancaster in my opinion has really fecked up here by sticking with the misfiring options for far too long and only bringing in Strettle to the squad. Oh and for the love of Christ stop trying to bosh Ashton up the middle in to the centre of the opposition forwards, he's not Banahan!

Marler
Youngs
Cole
Launchberry
Parling (if not injured)
Wood
Robshaw
Morgan
Youngs
Flood
an 11
Twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Ashton
Brown

Suddenly all of my question marks over Lancaster and the coaching team are back...

Oh and if we were to start Care i'd like Farrel to start at 10. I'm not sure how but for a pretty limited 10 he just seems to get the best out of everyone around him.

Some might think this laughable but if Morgan is out I think the best and strongest english back row to face wales would be

6 - Wood
7 - Robshaw
8 - Easter

What are the odds on wood remaining at 8 and croft starting ahead of haskell at 6, bearing in mind morgan has been injured for a few weeks and is unlikely to come straight back in even if fit?

HQ matt wrote:What are the odds on wood remaining at 8 and croft starting ahead of haskell at 6, bearing in mind morgan has been injured for a few weeks and is unlikely to come straight back in even if fit?

High - I think its also dependent on what shape our 2nd rows are going into Sat as Croft may be important in the line out. Still missing the heavy carrier though. MV can do some but hes not going to last the game.

When England were in a bit of a mess SL showed his strengths by getting us to play limited but cohesive rugby. Now England are developing SL is showing his weakness. Our back 3 was pretty reasonable in MJ's days (Ashton, Cueto, Foden), now it has no pace in attack and is surprisingly suspect in defence (given 2/3 are FBs). And I'm in the unlikely position of yearning for a more MJ-like BR. Haskell or Easter can do a job for us at no 8 whilst the brittle Morgan has another lie-down (or the similarly fragile Vunipola gains experience) - but no, SL knows better. Either it's a lock at B/S or a B/S at no 8 (or both)! He seems determined to turn our back 3 and BR into a kind of hybrid mush. In some sort of defense for SL he is trying to make sure we have cover for the BR from a group of players. But his handling of the back 3 is just poor.

lostinwales wrote:

HQ matt wrote:What are the odds on wood remaining at 8 and croft starting ahead of haskell at 6, bearing in mind morgan has been injured for a few weeks and is unlikely to come straight back in even if fit?

High - I think its also dependent on what shape our 2nd rows are going into Sat as Croft may be important in the line out. Still missing the heavy carrier though. MV can do some but hes not going to last the game.

I think that would be fricking terrible if we did play it. Wood out of position and anonimous, Croft struggling to make an impact with leightweights around him and Robshaw having to clear up after everyone all game

I would start Croft and play Robshaw and Wood at 7 and 8. I'd have Youngs at 9 and Farrell 10 if fit. I would play Telvetrees and Tuilagi in the centre and change both wings, keeping Goode at 15.

If England make these changes they will win comfortably. As I'm Welsh I hope you ignore my advice and start the same team you did against Italy.

Hold up a moment.

We played badly against Italy with poor tactics. This does not mean we are suddenly a poor team. We don't need huge changes.

I would start with a similar team to the one that just played. If Morgan is fit I'd bring him in, if Farrell is fit then he goes on the bench.

I trust the coaches to look at the gameplan they set out for the Italy game and see where they went wrong.

I trust the players who had bad games against Italy to up the standard against Wales.

Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water - the performance this week was unacceptable, the players know that. They will not perform that badly next week.

Once the Six Nations is over I would assess the whole tournament. Right now I would say that we only have six days to prepare, most of which will be recovery.

We know what Wales' game plan will be, let's make sure we get our game plan right. It was a combination of some players having off days and a poor game plan that caused the performance on Saturday, no need for knee jerk changes.

screamingaddabs wrote:Hold up a moment.

We played badly against Italy with poor tactics. This does not mean we are suddenly a poor team. We don't need huge changes.

I would start with a similar team to the one that just played. If Morgan is fit I'd bring him in, if Farrell is fit then he goes on the bench.

I trust the coaches to look at the gameplan they set out for the Italy game and see where they went wrong.

I trust the players who had bad games against Italy to up the standard against Wales.

Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water - the performance this week was unacceptable, the players know that. They will not perform that badly next week.

Once the Six Nations is over I would assess the whole tournament. Right now I would say that we only have six days to prepare, most of which will be recovery.

We know what Wales' game plan will be, let's make sure we get our game plan right. It was a combination of some players having off days and a poor game plan that caused the performance on Saturday, no need for knee jerk changes.

The problem with that is we also played badly against France and scraped a win, and then again against Ireland, and against SA and Oz.

We made these same excuses for MJ, "don't rush in new players, give the team a chance, they'll come good, let Cueto play himself back in to form, yes their attack is poor but defencively they're solid".

In the end we must make changes; We should not be scared of changes, in fact changes can be a good thing! I for one would prefer these sooner rather then later.

How many changes did Italy have for their team that played us...

As a team we played very well against Ireland for the conditions. We started off badly against France but did enough to hold them in the first half before getting on top by the end. Italy was a funny one - and the team work and cohesion just disappeared.

There are problems. But we are still played 4 won 4.

Now isnt the time for big changes. I do expect the team this time next year to be different though

yappysnap wrote:

The problem with that is we also played badly against France and scraped a win, and then again against Ireland, and against SA and Oz.

We made these same excuses for MJ, "don't rush in new players, give the team a chance, they'll come good, let Cueto play himself back in to form, yes their attack is poor but defencively they're solid".

In the end we must make changes; We should not be scared of changes, in fact changes can be a good thing! I for one would prefer these sooner rather then later.

How many changes did Italy have for their team that played us...

That's a fair point. IF the problems had been solely down to poor players then I'd agree on changes, however I think the game plan was not quite right. Also, I'm not saying no changes at all, just not wholesale changes.

For instance, Youngs in for Care, Morgan in at 8 (this is just an example). Just two changes that would make a difference when combined with a change in game plan. The problem with the game plan was a lack of ferociousness in the forward play. Hit the rucks hard, play quickly and take it on a few phases instead of giving it to the backs too soon. Some people are suggesting changing 5 or 6 players. I know Italy did this, but they did it during a break with a rest week, not in a six day turnaround.

In summary - you are right, some changes are fine, but not loads and the main change is game plan!

The game plan wasn't wrong, the execution of it was wrong - When you have a 6 man overlap then you have done something right to create it, you then just execute it. The game plan was fine, the execution was abysmal on occasion. You need to be that specific

RubyGuby wrote:The game plan wasn't wrong, the execution of it was wrong - When you have a 6 man overlap then you have done something right to create it, you then just execute it. The game plan was fine, the execution was abysmal on occasion. You need to be that specific

Thin lines. England looked so strong at the start but everything went wrong in the final execution. As Ruby says - abysmal. In contrast Italy made their one try scoring chance look ridiculously easy. Another day one or two early chances would have come off - the Italian heads would have dropped and it would have been a 4 or 5 try victory, and this conversation would have been very different.

RubyGuby wrote:The game plan wasn't wrong, the execution of it was wrong - When you have a 6 man overlap then you have done something right to create it, you then just execute it. The game plan was fine, the execution was abysmal on occasion. You need to be that specific

A fair point, and bear in mind I am not absolving the players of the blame entirely. That overlap man sausage up was appalling! We should have created more chances as well though. We didn't seem to have the patience we have previously shown in terms of building the game.

But yes, I am altering my opinion slightly in light of what people have said here (there is a first time for everything! ). I still think the game plan could have been better, but perhaps I was being a bit too easy on the players. I stand by my comment of not making massive changes though, not with just 6 days to prepare.

The game plan was terrible, but I really do think that we'll never have a functioning gameplan without changing something from 12 onwards, be that in the centre or in the back three. We can produce good clean quick ball but the minute it gets past 10 it gets wasted, like you said in that overlap situation where good intercepted the ball to the wings and then passed back to Flood who was drifting to watch what he thought would be a winger runnign a try in, only to then be tackled by Goode!

Oh and why shouldn't squad players be able to be brought in? They've trained just as much as anyne else, and presumably if there was an injury they'd be straight in there.

yappysnap wrote:Oh and why shouldn't squad players be able to be brought in? They've trained just as much as anyne else, and presumably if there was an injury they'd be straight in there.

Guys from the bench maybe, but otherwise you are bringing in someone who was not in the starting 22. I don't think non-22 players will have trained as much on the systems. On paper it should be fine, but in reality I'm not so sure.

What changes would you make?