Lancaster will look very SILLY for not starting the Billy's.......

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England have the incredible luxury of having genuine world class options ready to go that will massively improve the balance of the team.

Rugby as they say is a game for all sizes, however a more subtle point and one not often understood, is that each and every position on the pitch is in its own way special. The obvious example is tight head prop but actually its the same for ALL positions and therefore whenever possible you select players in their specific position, especially at international level. Why would you select 4 blind side flackers, 2 full backs and 2 outside centres? Anyone who thinks Barrett is an IC needs their head examined.

Billy Twelvetrees is the most talented IC England have seen in a generation however very few coaches have the plums to understand he is the standout choice.

Billy Vunipola is a natural number 8, and yes he is obviously green but he has all the ability to play at international level. I would very much expect him to make mistakes and he will give away penalties, however I also believe he will leave the field in the credit column and with Wood and Robshaw in toe will be very well looked after. I can see Billy Vunipola and Ben Morgan competing for the 8 position for many years to come - England are very lucky, still Lancaster is a VERY SILLY BILLY.

markb wrote:

jeffwinger wrote:
Barritt really is very poor going forward, he appears to stifle many attacking opportunities and his handling isn't great. People site the NZ game as an example of his abilities in attack, but what did he really do? He ran straight through a gaping hole before trying as hard as he could to butcher the 2 on 1, only to be bailed out by Tuilagi. If anything I would say that was an example of lack of ability rather than proof of ability. And aside from that occasion I can't think of another time when Barritt has threatened the opposition defence during his international career.

I swear that some of you don't actually watch games and just regurgitate the stuff you read on here by other posters who aren't paying attention to what is really going on.

I'm sure that is the case with some people, but I can assure you that my views have been shaped purely by evidence that I have witnessed myself.

Are you suggesting that you believe Barritt is a good attacking centre? If so, can you site any examples of occasions when he has made a positive contribution to England's attacking play?

His try against New Zealand perhaps...

HQ matt wrote:Billy V is just not ready for this test match, he still makes too many errors at Jeff level. He was brought into the squad to train during this 6 nations with one eye on the future, had he not picked up a little injury he may well have seen some time off the bench, the return of Croft did not help him either.
His time will come in the summer.

Croft is the man that will be involved on saturday. I think he will start ahead of Haskell because of what he adds to the lineout, England's lineout has been distinctively average throughout this tournament.

36 has not justified a starting spot at all for me, he has had a solid start to his international career and I expect that to continue but Barritt is absolutely ahead of him at this stage. Barritt is capable of playing in an attacking back line, he will not necessarily be the most creative element but he does not need to be. Englands lack of tries was down to a lack of collective composure and nothing to do with one individuals passing ability!

If we don't have ball carriers, we cannot win this game. Someone earlier mentioned needing 4 in the pack, we are well short of that. T Youngs looks decent, Mako is ok but i'm worried about his scrummaging against Wales and think we need Marler to gain any parity there (not much in it but I think he's marginally better). I also think Haskell carried very well for the first 15 minutes, and looked our only player getting over the gain-line. I was amazed when he was subbed and thought we went down-hill afterwards, can't see why people rated him so poorly. If BV is fit, he may be a tyro, but he is a more experienced and better 8 than Wood. Haskell could, I think, do a decent job there, but SL seems to prefer Wood at 8 (?!) Morgan first choice 8, then BV, then Haskell I think. And just ask Haskell to concentrate on carrying. I'm a little worried our SRs are going to get monstered by Evans.

dgttaylor, that is the example addressed in the initial comment, which I do not believe was evidence of his attacking prowess. Even if you do insist on using this example, that is one occasion in 10-15 international matches. He is a solid enough player, but when you have an option such as Twelvetrees available, choosing Barritt seems to be another example of Lancaster's loyalty to his early squad members ahead of ruthless performance.

Aside from scoring his try in the opening fixture I haven't really seen much in an attacking context from Twelvetrees.

Admittedly he has had nowhere near the same level of opportunity as Barritt and I certainly agree in the long term Twelvetrees could prove himself to be answer to the 12 spot. However in the context of the game on Saturday I would back Barritt 100%.

I take your point about the NZ game, it wasn't exactly clinical finishing of a 2 on 1 but then much of England's backline are guilty of that from Sunday's game...

Certain teams need certain players to make them tick with Conrad Smith being the obvious example. I am not suggesting that Barritt is anywhere near the same league as him, but in the context of England's defensive organisation I really think he is essential on Saturday. I am not saying Twelvetrees is poor defensively, as others have stated he is defensively sound, but in a game of this magnitude I really can't see any reason to change the comibination. It may seem short sighted but I dont care, as long as we win the GS...

Fair enough, I can see the benefit of playing him this week for reasons of continuity and security. I would still choose Twelvetrees as previously stated, but given the magnitude of the occasion I can see merit in sticking with the trusted pair. Beyond this tournament however, I feel that England need to sort out their attacking game, particularly in midfield. My first step here would be to move on from Brad Barritt, who has been an admirable performer during this transitional period, but is very limited. Twelvetrees seems the obvious candidate to take over, but there are other youngsters such as Eastmond, Tomkins and Joseph who could come into the equation.

Really liked the look of Joseph whe he came on to the scene but don't think he has been helped by injuries and being played out of of position at LI (see him as a 13). It is tough though as Manu is obviously our main threat so it is unlikely he will be shifted despite many calls to try him on the wing. Tompkins has come on a lot recently so is a decent option but again a 13 (as far as I aware).

Finding the right balance between 10, 12, 13 will be tough but long term barring injury if you consider it will be Farrell and Manu, the 12 position remains very challenging with Twelvetrees and Barrit the obvious options. Burns at 10, Farrell at 12 Manu at 13?! Plenty of possible combinations but not much time to bed them in before the AI's or next years 6 nations...

Wi11 wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:. He plays for Sarries who in his absense have started scoring tries.

Interesting point. England' winger were running in plenty of tries a couple of years ago, that stopped when Lancaster took over and the wings have barely got a look-in with Farrell and Barritt playing.

Strettle used to score loads of tries. At Sarries with Farrell and Barritt inside him he's hardly managed any. Then when Farrell and Barritt clear off for a while he is suddenly scoring at will.

It's worth remembering that it's not just a case of Farrell, Barritt and Tuilagi being rubbish distributors (and to be fair, Farrell's passing is actually quite good sometimes) - it's also the fact that Farrell and Barritt offer absolutely zero threat themselves, which means defenders can stay wide, which is why Ashton and Brown always have three men in front of them when they get the ball.

Quick ball is the key. Upping in intensity and tempo too. It's up to the forwards to set the platform, also the scrum half needs to make sure the ball comes up quickly. England did this against NZ and Scotland hence a healthy amount of tries.

I think given more game time during this 6 Nations, Twelvetrees could have made a very strong case for Lions selection. He still could, but it seems quite unlikely. Even less likely would be for Burns to go as a bolter, so allowing for injuries we should get the chance to see those two at 10 and 12 during the summer tour. This should give a good idea of viable options going forward, and I think both players will prove themselves more than capable of reproducing excellent club form. I expect the result of this will be that Flood and Barritt are usurped in the 23, and perhaps the EPS once more youngster come through. This should be beneficial.

Hood83 wrote:

HQ matt wrote:Billy V is just not ready for this test match, he still makes too many errors at Jeff level. He was brought into the squad to train during this 6 nations with one eye on the future, had he not picked up a little injury he may well have seen some time off the bench, the return of Croft did not help him either.
His time will come in the summer.

Croft is the man that will be involved on saturday. I think he will start ahead of Haskell because of what he adds to the lineout, England's lineout has been distinctively average throughout this tournament.

36 has not justified a starting spot at all for me, he has had a solid start to his international career and I expect that to continue but Barritt is absolutely ahead of him at this stage. Barritt is capable of playing in an attacking back line, he will not necessarily be the most creative element but he does not need to be. Englands lack of tries was down to a lack of collective composure and nothing to do with one individuals passing ability!

If we don't have ball carriers, we cannot win this game. Someone earlier mentioned needing 4 in the pack, we are well short of that. T Youngs looks decent, Mako is ok but i'm worried about his scrummaging against Wales and think we need Marler to gain any parity there (not much in it but I think he's marginally better). I also think Haskell carried very well for the first 15 minutes, and looked our only player getting over the gain-line. I was amazed when he was subbed and thought we went down-hill afterwards, can't see why people rated him so poorly. If BV is fit, he may be a tyro, but he is a more experienced and better 8 than Wood. Haskell could, I think, do a decent job there, but SL seems to prefer Wood at 8 (?!) Morgan first choice 8, then BV, then Haskell I think. And just ask Haskell to concentrate on carrying. I'm a little worried our SRs are going to get monstered by Evans.

This is the nub of it at the moment I think Hood. It was me who referred to needing four good carriers in a pack to give decent balance and at the moment we're not even half way there. I understand and endorse the concept of mobile forwards with vision and handling ability but one needs a plan for those slow ball rucks and at the moment we're really lacking go-forward.

Once go-forward is achieved the ruck technique is much easier as players aren't having to retreat to perform the clear-out.

Regarding the try against NZ, it wasn't exactly a 2 on 1, people saying that Barritt should have passed later after completely fixing Dagg are missing the fact that he had clocked Jane chasing Tuilagi down from behind, who was the player who actually ended up tackling him. If anything for Tuilagi to score Barritt should have probably given the ball earlier to allow his extra pace and momentum to try and get away from Jane quicker and batter through Dagg or try and step inside away from the line that Jane pulled him down to. Either way it was far from as clear cut as some have suggested.

Barritt isn't as good a distributor as Twelvetrees is, not many are. Can't agree about the rubbishing of his distribution though. Those that are saying he doesn't pass or passes badly, curtailing our attacks aren't watching the same player I am. There were more than a few good touches and quick hands under pressure even at the weekend, that Tuilagi ran the ball 10 times from them (and was well shackled), passing the ball just once limits them looking like part of a flowing attack out wide. As someone else has said on here, look at the Scotland game if you want examples of his distribution joining up the rest of the backline, he was the one getting the ball out wide often and well giving the outside backs more opportunity than they've had in some time, he passed three times as much as Twelvetrees who was primarily running the ball and when he did pass was doing so short to Barritt rather than out wide.

Croft was conspicuous by his absence against Italy. Back to his old wing-hanging days straight away. People might not blame him considering the magnitude of his injury but if he ain't good enough he shouldn't be there at all.

Glory is right, to pick Croft on reputation would be hig risk IMO

kingelderfield wrote:England have the incredible luxury of having genuine world class options ready to go that will massively improve the balance of the team.

Rugby as they say is a game for all sizes, however a more subtle point and one not often understood, is that each and every position on the pitch is in its own way special. The obvious example is tight head prop but actually its the same for ALL positions and therefore whenever possible you select players in their specific position, especially at international level. Why would you select 4 blind side flackers, 2 full backs and 2 outside centres? Anyone who thinks Barrett is an IC needs their head examined.

Billy Twelvetrees is the most talented IC England have seen in a generation however very few coaches have the plums to understand he is the standout choice.

Billy Vunipola is a natural number 8, and yes he is obviously green but he has all the ability to play at international level. I would very much expect him to make mistakes and he will give away penalties, however I also believe he will leave the field in the credit column and with Wood and Robshaw in toe will be very well looked after. I can see Billy Vunipola and Ben Morgan competing for the 8 position for many years to come - England are very lucky, still Lancaster is a VERY SILLY BILLY.

Foresight is a wonderful thing........Obviously Wade is world class and should have started against Oz with Burrell replacing Tuilagi and Eastmond on the bench. Foden did ok today but he's a FB not a wing. Lack of imagination from Farrell - SCW pointed out Tomkins didn't pass the ball once today.

Some real plus points however when you have an inexperienced head coach learning on the job, who is obviously not a confident or competent selector, well you are bound to experience delayed and staggered progression.

The pack as always showed enormous courage as did Brown, ultimately in defeat as the coach is unable to understand the requirements of 15 man rugby - which is a little queer when you hear him eulogising about the way the AB's play the game. I suggest Mr. Lancaster you spend more time learning and understanding back play and less on you latest media story about the history of the shirt blah blah blah - or of course I would prefer you resign.

Twelvetrees is a far more creative player than Barrit and this shows Lancasters conservative selections. You need a back who can beat a player one on one and who can put those outside him into space