Wales v England Official Match Thread

[RubyGuby]

First topic message reminder :

It's 5th v 4th in the World Rankings on Sat. and a real opportunity for 1 of these sides to put another marker down in their development - These games now have even greater significance given that we share the same RWC Pool in 2015 - The fact that Wales have won the last 2 meetings between these old foes will count for nothing - It should be Awesome .

Good luck to both teams and both sets of fans

[Toadfish]

Seconds rows fit. Only changes are Marler, Youngs, Croft and Farrell.

[Scrumpy]

Ben Youngs, Owen Farrell, Tom Croft and Joe Marler have been recalled to England's starting XV for Saturday's Six Nations decider against Wales.

[lostinwales]

Both teams missing key players and the big question is will either team bring their A game (horrible term but nvm). One cause I have for optimism for England is that if they do play as well as they can they the intensity they bring is something that the Welsh have only really experienced once so far this tournament, first half vs Ireland...

[lostinwales]

Launchbury made it !!

[englandglory4ever]

I hope the ref reads the article in the Telegraph today re the Welsh scrum. Here is an extract.

"Many of the Wales penalties were won at the scrum, where Scotland were penalised many times for early engagement. Of the 12 scrums that took place, only three served the purpose of restarting open play, and Johnson has suggested that the Welsh forwards deliberately tricked the referee into thinking that the Scottish pack was the cause of most of the problems."

Johnson goes on to make it clear that he thought Wales were up to some illegal trickery.

I don't think we should have much trouble with two heavy weight packs going at it in the MS. The poor turf should ensure they spend the whole time with their faces in the mud.

[englandglory4ever]

"Launchbury made it !!"

Newspapers say he is still doubtful but has been named in the squad just in case he makes it.

[englandglory4ever]

CROFT!!! How on earth can England win now? Just a line out jumper and a wannabe winger in the pack. England start with only 7 in the pack now. Happy days for Wales. Big, big error by SL IMO.

[Jimpy]

"Launchbury made it !!"

Newspapers say he is still doubtful but has been named in the squad just in case he makes it.

"Meanwhile, second row Joe Launchbury retains his place in the starting line-up after shaking off an elbow injury"

Sounds a bit more certain than your bleak world view.

[Jimpy]

CROFT!!! How on earth can England win now? Just a line out jumper and a wannabe winger in the pack. England start with only 7 in the pack now. Happy days for Wales. Big, big error by SL IMO.

Either stop talking shoite, or post something sensible will ya?

[Casartelli]

I hope the ref reads the article in the Telegraph today re the Welsh scrum. Here is an extract.

"Many of the Wales penalties were won at the scrum, where Scotland were penalised many times for early engagement. Of the 12 scrums that took place, only three served the purpose of restarting open play, and Johnson has suggested that the Welsh forwards deliberately tricked the referee into thinking that the Scottish pack was the cause of most of the problems."

Johnson goes on to make it clear that he thought Wales were up to some illegal trickery.

I don't think we should have much trouble with two heavy weight packs going at it in the MS. The poor turf should ensure they spend the whole time with their faces in the mud.

Andy Robinson rated the MS as the finest, most inspirational, rugby venue in the world, even with its dodgy pitch.

Two quality front rows will lift their games (in the finest, most inspirational, rugby venue in the world) and manage to keep their faces off the pallets for 80mins.

[Bathman_in_London]

I wonder if Wales will try the soft engagement after Hibbard brought it to the world's attention last weekend? I'd like to say Walsh will be looking out for it but that might be giving him too much credit..

[fa0019]

Croft vs. Haskell is an interesting selection weigh up.

Croft is easier on the Lineout and given his light frame only needs 1 lifter... meaning Wales need to put less emphasis on him and > England's success rate in theory.

Less bulk in scrum although in least important position of flanker.

Ball carrying... Haskell is far better and is one of Englands only genuine go to men in the tight without Morgan.

Tackling. Haskell is a demon amongst forwards but Croft is very good at cover tackling in the backling. Given that Wales have 2 massive individuals in North and Cuthbert I think Crofts added speed may have just pushed him over the selection line.

[fa0019]

Steve Walsh is quite a sensible bloke actually. Often tries and mediates with the players first off and doesn't give away silly penalties like Joubert does.

Both Wales and England should be happier they have him then Joubert thats for sure.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

'If Stuart Lancaster, the red-rose coach, asked him [Manu Tuilagi] to play on the wing, thereby creating a midfield space for the Gloucester playmaker Billy Twelvetrees and his greater range of skills, he would simply shrug his shoulders and crack on with doing what he likes to do on a rugby field: that is to say, smithereen opponents when he runs at them and marmalise them when they run at him.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/six-nations-2013-i-love-silencing-the-crazy-crowds-says-manu-tuilagi-8533444.html

What fine journalism.

[kingelderfield]

Jimpy please count to 10, there's no need to be silly is there

[TrailApe]

I'm not confident.

However I'm hoping that the Italian game has hammered home some hard earned lessons and they adapt their game plan to the situation.

Intensity is all very well, but how much blood do you have to lose before you admit that running into a brick wall is not the best way to get past it - you can alwayss go over/around or under it.

Optimistic - but not confident.

[englandglory4ever]

"Either stop talking shoite, or post something sensible will ya?"

I'll say what I think mate and I think you can go away and multiply in short jerky movements.

fa0019 may have shed light on the selection though. Croft is being sacrificed as a forward to hang around on the wings to do Ashton's tackling for him.

[doctornickolas]

I hope the ref reads the article in the Telegraph today re the Welsh scrum. Here is an extract.

"Many of the Wales penalties were won at the scrum, where Scotland were penalised many times for early engagement. Of the 12 scrums that took place, only three served the purpose of restarting open play, and Johnson has suggested that the Welsh forwards deliberately tricked the referee into thinking that the Scottish pack was the cause of most of the problems."

Johnson goes on to make it clear that he thought Wales were up to some illegal trickery.

I don't think we should have much trouble with two heavy weight packs going at it in the MS. The poor turf should ensure they spend the whole time with their faces in the mud.

We did warn you all that Johnson talks Poopie whenever he opens his mouth. The only trickery was Wales waiting until the ref said before engageing whereas the Scots chose to consistently ignore that part of the laws. I do hope we see some proper scrummaging though as I think the Wales front 5 will be better than England's.

[Jimpy]

Jimpy please count to 10, there's no need to be silly is there

I wasn't being 'silly', or if I was, it was in response to an even 'sillier' comment. Croft is hardly the liability Englandglory would have you believe now is he?

[fa0019]

I hope the ref reads the article in the Telegraph today re the Welsh scrum. Here is an extract.

"Many of the Wales penalties were won at the scrum, where Scotland were penalised many times for early engagement. Of the 12 scrums that took place, only three served the purpose of restarting open play, and Johnson has suggested that the Welsh forwards deliberately tricked the referee into thinking that the Scottish pack was the cause of most of the problems."

Johnson goes on to make it clear that he thought Wales were up to some illegal trickery.

I don't think we should have much trouble with two heavy weight packs going at it in the MS. The poor turf should ensure they spend the whole time with their faces in the mud.

We did warn you all that Johnson talks Poopie whenever he opens his mouth. The only trickery was Wales waiting until the ref said before engageing whereas the Scots chose to consistently ignore that part of the laws. I do hope we see some proper scrummaging though as I think the Wales front 5 will be better than England's.

Not so sure if Gethin is chosen over James. Heard that may will be the case as Howley wants more leaders in the pack with Jones out. James would be a big scrum loss.

[thebluesmancometh]

Anyone think that with the likes of Marler, Youngs, Parling, Launchbury, Croft, and Woods at 8 that Englands pack looks a little, how do I say this? Lightweight?

Not that I'm saying they are, there are some very dynamic guys there, and theyre going exceptionally well (partly down to Rowntree IMHO) but they are small.

[Jimpy]

"Either stop talking shoite, or post something sensible will ya?"
I'll say what I think mate and I think you can go away and multiply in short jerky movements.
fa0019 may have shed light on the selection though. Croft is being sacrificed as a forward to hang around on the wings to do Ashton's tackling for him.

Proving catagorically that you can't.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I'm not so concerned with having Warburton and Tipuric now. That's not a big ball-carrying back row Lancaster has picked.

[beshocked]

fa0019 you sum it up nicely.


Prefer Croft to Haskell certainly based on form alone. Croft has been good for Tigers since coming back from injury whereas I haven't been particularly impressed by Haskell so far.

Not sure if the balance will be right in the backrow but we'll see.

[Jimpy]

There goes the thread...

Yes, I must be out of my mind. Croft is a complete donkey, shouldn't be anywhere near the squad...

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Sorry Jimpy, I was thinking out loud.

[Casartelli]

Anyone think that with the likes of Marler, Youngs, Parling, Launchbury, Croft, and Woods at 8 that Englands pack looks a little, how do I say this? Lightweight?

Not that I'm saying they are, there are some very dynamic guys there, and theyre going exceptionally well (partly down to Rowntree IMHO) but they are small.

We're guaranteed 80mins of bishbosh now - Howley will fancy our chances trundling it up.

This ain't going to be champagne rugby.

[Jimpy]

fa0019 you sum it up nicely.


Prefer Croft to Haskell certainly based on form alone. Croft has been good for Tigers since coming back from injury whereas I haven't been particularly impressed by Haskell so far.

Not sure if the balance will be right in the backrow but we'll see.

Haskell does carry well and is a willing worker, but I still think he lacks - for want of a better phrase - a 'rugby brain'...

[Big]

Croft will be the best lineout forward on display. He probably has more pace than anyone else in the two teams. He runs all day and is quite capable of proving people wrong on what he does on the ground and in the tight. He is a very useful player to have

Yep. I can't understand the flak he sometimes gets. He is consistantly near the top of the table for tackles and turnovers and does a shedload of work, but because (and I'm assuming it's a tactical decision from the coaches) they exploit his pace by putting him somewhere he can run at gaps in attack he is viewed as lazy. Why take one of the fastest players on the pitch, and have them running at a brick wall? We have plenty enough bulldozers in the team, and frankly could do with a bit more of this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lt_douDyFc (at 2.20)

[englandglory4ever]

"Yes, I must be out of my mind. Croft is a complete donkey, shouldn't be anywhere near the squad..."

I'm glad you think that but I wouldn't be so presumptuous to call you names just because you have an opinion. (That's it Jimpy. Whatever comes back from you don't expect an answer from me in the interests of this thread.)

[fa0019]

Anyone think that with the likes of Marler, Youngs, Parling, Launchbury, Croft, and Woods at 8 that Englands pack looks a little, how do I say this? Lightweight?

Not that I'm saying they are, there are some very dynamic guys there, and theyre going exceptionally well (partly down to Rowntree IMHO) but they are small.

Well its not the old days of White Orcs on steroids certainly! Had Lancaster thought that the pack needed some additional bulk I think he would have selected Hartley over Youngs so it looks like they're quite confident of holding their own.

If James plays I think ENG will need to be at their best... if Gethin plays I think fortunes in the scrum reverse.

[Jimpy]

"Yes, I must be out of my mind. Croft is a complete donkey, shouldn't be anywhere near the squad..."

I'm glad you think that but I wouldn't be so presumptuous to call you names just because you have an opinion. (That's it Jimpy. Whatever comes back from you don't expect an answer from me in the interests of this thread.)

I was questioning your opinion, not 'calling you names'.... RTFQ.

Since my opinion on Croft appears to be that of the majority here, I know which one I'd put more faith in.

[thebluesmancometh]

Anyone think that with the likes of Marler, Youngs, Parling, Launchbury, Croft, and Woods at 8 that Englands pack looks a little, how do I say this? Lightweight?

Not that I'm saying they are, there are some very dynamic guys there, and theyre going exceptionally well (partly down to Rowntree IMHO) but they are small.

We're guaranteed 80mins of bishbosh now - Howley will fancy our chances trundling it up.

This ain't going to be champagne rugby.

From Wales anyway!!!

[gregortree]

Steve Walsh is quite a sensible bloke actually. Often tries and mediates with the players first off and doesn't give away silly penalties like Joubert does.

Both Wales and England should be happier they have him then Joubert thats for sure.

Despite the Walsh 'history' I thought Walsh was streets ahead of OCD Joubert last matches I saw, in giving the player a chance to play & scrummage.
(some say Walsh 'misses' some misdemeanors or does a Nelson).

If Walsh is that reasonable again on Saturday I would have no grumbles about him.

[Glas a du]

He's my least disliked ref. At least he understands the game.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

I like this England team (possibly not Marler over Vunipola).

Suddenly we have 290 caps in the starting line-up (which seeing as how we started the campaign being compared with BOD alone).

206 caps off the bench to provide a bit of Oscar Hotel Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo in the opposition from 60 mins+

[gregortree]

I like this England team (possibly not Marler over Vunipola).

Suddenly we have 290 caps in the starting line-up (which seeing as how we started the campaign being compared with BOD alone).

206 caps off the bench to provide a bit of Oscar Hotel Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo in the opposition from 60 mins+

+1 Grey

[lostinwales]

Vunipola will still play a big part in this

[Barney McGrew did it]

Croft at his best is one of our two world class players (with Cole). But whether he's up to speed after his layoff is a gamble. He also looks better with a ball carrying no 8, which we don't currently have. SL's no 8 pecking order looks interesting: Morgan > Wood >> Vunipola / Haskell > Waldrom > Crane?......Whatever happened to Fearns?

I hope SL hasn't gone into damage limitation mode, as the best way of defending North & Cuthbert is for our pack to make sure the welsh wingers don't see the ball.

[RubyGuby]

The selection of Croft does increase the likelihood that we'll see Warburton and Tipuric alongside Faletau. I would want to keep James at prop however to keep the power in place

[Glas a du]

The selection of Croft does increase the likelihood that we'll see Warburton and Tipuric alongside Faletau. I would want to keep James at prop however to keep the power in place

Precisely. Coombes will be strong back up for when Croft is replaced with Haskell.

[RubyGuby]

And Gethin would be a better impact sub at 50 mins IMO

[Luckless Pedestrian]

And Gethin would be a better impact sub at 50 mins IMO

If needed, Ruby. I hope we won't see any Declan Kidney-style pre-planned substitutions and players who are having a stormer coming off.

[propdavid_london]

England (v Wales, Saturday, 5pm, Millennium Stadium, live on BBC One)
15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 10 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 33 caps)
13. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 20 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 15 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 15 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 15 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 32 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 9 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 8 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 39 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 8 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 16 caps)
6. Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers, 37 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 16 caps)
8. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 17 caps)

Replacements
16. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 46 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 25 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 8 caps)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 19 caps)
20. James Haskell (London Wasps, 49 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 40 caps)
22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 56 caps)
23. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 3 caps)

[offload]

Well no surprises from me. I expected Croft to play 6 (thought he was good last week) and didn't expect SL to change the backline other than Farrell. IMO Ashton is very lucky.

From a Welsh perspective I'm OK with this - very predictable team. Twelvetrees and a different winger would have asked more questions and mixed things up a bit. Still, we are pretty predictable too (lateral running and kicking ball away that the pack have spent 10 mins trying to win). Can't wait.


A Goode (Saracens); C Ashton (Saracens), M Tuilagi (Leicester), B Barritt (Saracens), M Brown (Harlequins); O Farrell (Saracens), B Youngs (Leicester); J Marler (Harlequins), T Youngs (Leicester), D Cole (Leicester), J Launchbury (Wasps), G Parling (Leicester), T Croft (Leicester), C Robshaw (Harlequins, capt), T Wood (Northampton).

Replacements: D Hartley (Northampton), D Wilson (Bath), M Vunipola (Saracens), C Lawes (Northampton), J Haskell (Wasps), D Care (Harlequins), T Flood (Leicester), B Twelvetrees (Gloucester)

[profitius]

I hope the ref reads the article in the Telegraph today re the Welsh scrum. Here is an extract.

"Many of the Wales penalties were won at the scrum, where Scotland were penalised many times for early engagement. Of the 12 scrums that took place, only three served the purpose of restarting open play, and Johnson has suggested that the Welsh forwards deliberately tricked the referee into thinking that the Scottish pack was the cause of most of the problems."

Johnson goes on to make it clear that he thought Wales were up to some illegal trickery.

I don't think we should have much trouble with two heavy weight packs going at it in the MS. The poor turf should ensure they spend the whole time with their faces in the mud.

I remember the last time that happened. It was clear to me that the Welsh dummied to go which made the Scots go and the Scots were penalised.

[maestegmafia]

If I was English, I'd be trying to wind up Mike Phillips. He's angry before the game's even kicked off. If he can be drawn into that kind of thing, his service suffers even further.

Wind up Phillips at your peril. He's a bigger game changer than North, Tips or Warburton. Especially in huge games.

Actually I think winding up Phillips or getting into his face would be a good idea. Put him under pressure and he will do what he does naturally, come out and fight which means he will carry more then unleash his backline... something I think England should be more worried about.

Keeping front foot ball out of the Welsh 3/4 will be key to England's success.

And your thoughts on the key to Welsh success?

Italy did well last week, france in the first half two weeks earlier. English fans are constantly stating this team is far from the finished article, where do you see the English weak points?

[lostinwales]

When is the Wales team up?

[Big]

And your thoughts on the key to Welsh success?

Italy did well last week, france in the first half two weeks earlier. English fans are constantly stating this team is far from the finished article, where do you see the English weak points?

Go with James and I think Wales will win at the scrum, that's a start. Cole is in great form in the loose, but looks a bit out of sorts in the set piece - and Marler never has been the best scrummager in the game. I don't think we get as much grunt from the engine room either.

Otherwise I think the main problem for us is our back 3. Good for aerial ping pong, but not necessarily much else. If Wales try and keep ball in hand and play with a bit of width I expect gaps to appear (that may mean playing a bit deeper and sacrificing a bit of ground on any given phase), if they kick the ball to us the back 3 will probably field it fairly well and possibly return with interest/pressure on receiver.

Defensively if Wales keep Tuilagi well marked I'm struggling to see where England's line breaks will come from. Perhaps broken play if they can kick high and win the ball or turn it over straight away. So I guess Wales should probably be alert for up and unders, try and secure the ball first and press home any advantage later.

I'd say Wales need to attack the breakdown as well. Our back row has good individuals but not great balance, Tipuric and Warburton should be able to give us a real headache in terms of getting quick ball for your backs and denying it to ours.

[maestegmafia]

12:50 live announcement link below

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2013/03/13/six-nations-wales-team-announcement-v-england-live-12-50pm-91466-32984077/

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