The post-6-Nations Anglo Welsh bickering thread

[Ospreydragon]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/frustrated-england-will-challenge-referee-calls-8541351.html


Thread renamed to match the actual debate taking place

[GloriousEmpire]

Sour grapes and poor sportsmanship.

Typical of the England camp to lack any dignity in defeat.

In my view active coaching staff who question match officials in the media should be banned by the IRB.

Also typical of the English media to describe Walsh in such pejorative terms.

England will never learn the lessons of their great grand slam chokes unless they search their own failings and not a referees.

It's also laughable that Rowntree believes England's reviews of referees are held in such high regard, and hardly surprising that they've been "glowing" in recent times given the easy ride they've been given, especially in that NZ game'

[Ospreydragon]

GloriousEmpire, Perhaps Rowntree feels he has to look for reasons elsewhre -- because otherwise the finger points at him as the forwards coach. Just as Lancaster bemoans the difference in the number of caps after the match, when it was virtually the same start team that heavily beat NZ (barring Corbs and Morgan) and he could have chosen players with more cpas to start, given that he is head coach. All lame excuses. And any probs with ref interpretation should be done privately. It just looks like sour grapes.

[rainbow-warrior]

Just childish pathetic sour grapes, expect no less. Still 30 - 3

[Biltong]

Just childish pathetic sour grapes, expect no less. Still 30 - 3

...or maybe just someone desperately seeking answers for the heavy loss?

[offload]

It's perfectly reasonable for the coaching team to debrief with the ref and try to understand why they were not good enough - although surely this is better done in private. SL made a lot of the need to learn from this game so let's hope he is equally keen to learn the lessons of selecting a FB out of position, a wing without any form, a 6 to play 8 and a centre that can't catch and ignores overlaps.

For a team that so comprehensively beat the world champions there simply MUST be an obvious reason for the defeat and surely that lies with the officials. The possibility that the other team was actually better at rugby is unthinkable.

[LondonTiger]

In the actual recorded interview Rowntree stated that "he wanted clarification in the calls to help his coaching"

Please note CLARIFICATION - yet again we get a lazy headline.

Bearing in mind he is the Forwards coach for the Lions I would have thought most B&I fans would be supportive of this.

Walsh effectively refused to discuss the matter post match, so that leaves the only option available to be speaking to the IRB refs boss, as they are doing.

Ideally this woul dhave stayed private - but with wall to wall media coverage that English sports teams have to live under, that was always going to be difficult.

[offload]

In the actual recorded interview Rowntree stated that "he wanted clarification in the calls to help his coaching"

Please note CLARIFICATION - yet again we get a lazy headline.

Bearing in mind he is the Forwards coach for the Lions I would have thought most B&I fans would be supportive of this.

Walsh effectively refused to discuss the matter post match, so that leaves the only option available to be speaking to the IRB refs boss, as they are doing.

Ideally this woul dhave stayed private - but with wall to wall media coverage that English sports teams have to live under, that was always going to be difficult.

LT - you are of course 100% right but the manner of the coverage will not do England any favours.

[fa0019]

I like Steve Walsh as a ref in that no player dominates him like Joubert but I don't like how he has to be the centre of attention... Although I do recall some english posters prior to the match saying that they always got one in the neck from Walsh and were nervous.

Refs always tend to play to momentum and Wales had the front foot ball.... They will make mistakes although I thought the scrum thing of resetting youngs saying he had to be 1 step to the left etc 3 times in a row was a bit off... It was almost like he was looking for a reason.

Just have to get on with it though.

[maestegmafia]

I wonder if they will publish the outcomes of Rowntrees enquiry's.

I listened to the ref radio at the game on Saturday and Walsh was very clear in explaining his issues with the England pack.

[GloriousEmpire]

England were penalised at the breakdown largely because of guys like Coles diving in and doing that ridiculous "accidental" fall into the opposition's side. It's obvious and illegal. No problems there.

England's scrum was destroyed repeatedly. Hardly surprising they were penalised heavily.

The penalty count was fairly even and Walsh was consistent on both teams.

Rowntree should learn to keep his mouth shut and the English media should learn some humility instead of making ridiculous claims like "Walsh was a controversial figure in the match" just absolute nonsense, and entire fabrication.

[t1000advancedprototype]

Steve Walsh was disgusting allowing England 3 points.

Poor defensive effort from Wales.

[mckay1402]

I think they have good reason to question. That first scrum set the tone if the game and really Wales ought to have been done got driving before the ball is in. From that moment Wales were always on the front got and it did affect the game.

[rainbow-warrior]

I think they have good reason to question. That first scrum set the tone if the game and really Wales ought to have been done got driving before the ball is in. From that moment Wales were always on the front got and it did affect the game.

Yes because Wales were the better more complete team. .... And he was not just looking for answers, it was a blatant criticism of the ref and as I said Sour Grapes. Unless "Forensically studying" is just for fun. 30 - 3

[t1000advancedprototype]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9941194/England-unhappy-with-referee-Steve-Walshs-performance-in-defeat-by-Wales-as-they-report-official-to-IRB.html

I guess losing to Wales by 27 points is very hard to take and even harder to believe. Wales lost 50-10 in 2002 and 47-13 in 2006. Let's not forget 62-5 in 2007. Did the WRU complain? No. We were just abysmal.

What happened Saturday was EVERY single Welsh player (including reserves) played amazing. England didn't even play poorly, they played valiantly and tried very hard. If England had played poorly then Wales would have won by 50. I've never seen such a ruthless no compassion performance. A complete performance all round with little to no mistakes.

If Wales had won by 1-2 points then you could always "mention" certain refereeing translations, but this is ridiculous. Farrell had an off day, the forwards were killed and Ashton was his usual rubbish.

Little brother won. You can't argue 27 points to refereeing.

[rainbow-warrior]

It's just the arrogance you expect from them, the game is there for all to see, no one apart from the English would agree with this total crap. We smashed them and long may it happen. I do expect it to continue, they are nothing special and have been hyped up to the max and are falling from grace.

[t1000advancedprototype]

It's just the arrogance you expect from them, the game is there for all to see, no one apart from the English would agree with this total crap. We smashed them and long may it happen. I do expect it to continue, they are nothing special and have been hyped up to the max and are falling from grace.

2006 was horrible to take. So much expectation after 2005 but England and Ireland humiliated us. It was a false dawn.

However the Gatland era has brought a golden generation. 3 tournaments in 5 years. Two in a row shows there's progress. Yes there have been blips along the way but almost the entire team are still kids and will be together for a decade.

There are only two players that Wales MUST endeavour to blood equal replacements.

Adam Jones
Mike Phillips

Find sufficient replacements and all will be good. Maybe move tipuric to 9 haha?

[maestegmafia]

This has been covered elsewhere.

Also the RFU complained to the IRB, not England complaining to the RFU.

[Biltong]

It's just the arrogance you expect from them, the game is there for all to see, no one apart from the English would agree with this total crap. We smashed them and long may it happen. I do expect it to continue, they are nothing special and have been hyped up to the max and are falling from grace.

You don't have much of a liking for the english do you?

[jelly]

It isn't Walsh's fault that England lost, Wales were the better team on the day. That doesn't mean that his performance was good. On my specially constructed Venn diagram there is considerable scope for Walsh being useless and it not being his fault that England lost.

One of the Welsh posters on here the other day said that they didn't think Walsh had given us anything. Shane Williams commented at one point that it was "the Steve Walsh show" and that Robshaw was unlucky when penalised for having the temerity to try and win the ball. Walsh appeared to be guessing on a number of decisions as evidenced by the first scrum which collapsed, he then waited a few seconds, stuck his arm up for a Welsh penalty and then a few seconds later changed it to a free kick for delaying the feed. He even had to call back the Welsh team who were walking back waiting for the kick at goal.

The turnover for the first try is a fair point and at least debatable, Owens went off his feet with his hand in the ruck, got back to his feet and ripped the ball out but it went about a yard forward yet Walsh played on - should that have been a knock on or a penalty?

The Telegraph article is pretty balanced and at no point does anyone blame Walsh for the defeat - they have admitted England weren't good enough on the day.

I'd be very surprised if many England fans blame Walsh for the defeat but his performance was far from perfect.

[Biltong]

welcome Jelly, and yes I agree with you, I haven't seen any English supporters blame Walsh.

I said after the game I though Walsh did get peeved off by the English scrum and the decisions there were fairly one sided eventually.

Ultimately England were never in the game.

[jelly]

I think that if they were having a go at Walsh in the immediate aftermath of the game then it would be them desparately looking for excuses. This has clearly taken place after detailed analysis in the cold light of day, long after the emotion of the day has disappeared.

The one thing they shouldn't have done is bring it out into public because the headlines are inevitable and it does look like sour grapes.

I think it is fair to say that Walsh has history with England and was always a bit of a strange choice for such a big game.

[rainbow-warrior]

welcome Jelly, and yes I agree with you, I haven't seen any English supporters blame Walsh.

I said after the game I though Walsh did get peeved off by the English scrum and the decisions there were fairly one sided eventually.

Ultimately England were never in the game.

One sided because Wales were better at the scrum, pretty simple. If it is something else then you must point the finger at Walsh! Wales scrum was just as effective against Scotland, Italy and France. In fact it is one of the best packs in the world. Anything to take the shine off an historic defeat.

[hugehandoff]

Firstly everyone agrees that the ref did not affect the outcome of the game as wales were superior in every department.

secondly even the most ardent welsh fans said straight after the game that Walsh gave England nothing all game and that they felt this was unfair and would not have been happy if it was the other way around.

So there is an established review process for coaches and refs after matches which is happening the same as after every match - no big deal here. Of course the media in england like to sensationalise everything, but for the england coaches they need to understand what went wrong so they can learn and improve for next time. And if Walsh got some decisions wrong then he needs to learn and improve.

The fact that england did not complain straight after the match shows that they do not wish to detract from Wale's performance.

[hugehandoff]

Mods....can you please merge the two threads.....that way rainbow can impart his thoughtful analysis on just 1 thread

[welshboii15]

He was the next best option after Nigel Owens but as we all know you can't ref if your nation is playing, so steve walsh was the next best ref. You can say he's always had a problem with England but that's because the English players make the problem, he was a fair ref roundtree is just looking for excuses to make him self feel better.

[rainbow-warrior]

Mods....can you please merge the two threads.....that way rainbow can impart his thoughtful analysis on just 1 thread

Ouch are you still smarting after Saturday? I bet you and the rest would be doing the same had you won, unfortunately you never. And so after the 3rd success put up with it.

[Taffineastbourne]

If England had sought clarification after a victory rather than a record defeat I would have more respect.

[LondonTiger]

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/11/30/warren-gatland-calls-for-fairer-deal-from-referees-for-his-wales-team-91466-32334325/

Perhaps we should sack all the Lions coaches, bunch of whinging Poms and Kiwis if you ask me.

[Biltong]

welcome Jelly, and yes I agree with you, I haven't seen any English supporters blame Walsh.

I said after the game I though Walsh did get peeved off by the English scrum and the decisions there were fairly one sided eventually.

Ultimately England were never in the game.

One sided because Wales were better at the scrum, pretty simple. If it is something else then you must point the finger at Walsh! Wales scrum was just as effective against Scotland, Italy and France. In fact it is one of the best packs in the world. Anything to take the shine off an historic defeat.

I find it really sad that you have such a one eyed view of rugby, more so themanner in which you dismiss any other though process or team. Makes for very unpleasant reading.

[rainbow-warrior]

welcome Jelly, and yes I agree with you, I haven't seen any English supporters blame Walsh.

I said after the game I though Walsh did get peeved off by the English scrum and the decisions there were fairly one sided eventually.

Ultimately England were never in the game.

One sided because Wales were better at the scrum, pretty simple. If it is something else then you must point the finger at Walsh! Wales scrum was just as effective against Scotland, Italy and France. In fact it is one of the best packs in the world. Anything to take the shine off an historic defeat.

I find it really sad that you have such a one eyed view of rugby, more so themanner in which you dismiss any other though process or team. Makes for very unpleasant reading.

Please explain WHAT is wrong with the above post. It is my point of view or have you lost track of the point of these threads. Did you watch the match? More so as I said what is wrong with this post?

[mystiroakey]

It doesnt matter.

But NO.

These threads hurt my English Heart..

[Biltong]

welcome Jelly, and yes I agree with you, I haven't seen any English supporters blame Walsh.

I said after the game I though Walsh did get peeved off by the English scrum and the decisions there were fairly one sided eventually.

Ultimately England were never in the game.

One sided because Wales were better at the scrum, pretty simple. If it is something else then you must point the finger at Walsh! Wales scrum was just as effective against Scotland, Italy and France. In fact it is one of the best packs in the world. Anything to take the shine off an historic defeat.

I find it really sad that you have such a one eyed view of rugby, more so themanner in which you dismiss any other though process or team. Makes for very unpleasant reading.

Please explain WHAT is wrong with the above post. It is my point of view or have you lost track of the point of these threads. Did you watch the match? More so as I said what is wrong with this post?

It isn't what is wrong with this post, it is a general trend with most of your posts.

But to humour you let me look at this particular post.

I mentioned that Walsh was peeved off at the english scrum, (yes I watched the match), and by his body language, his attitude and mannerism lost patience with the english, from then on in his decision especially in the second half went one way. Now your post says and I quote "One sided because Wales were better at the scrum, pretty simple" dismissing any notion that there could have been any other reason apart from your reasoning that Walsh acted in the manner that he did.

I am a neutral observer, so there for my comment is not biased, but yet you dimiss it completely.

It is amazing when I make a comment (like I did in this particular match) that praises the Welsh for a complete performance and the fact that their intent to run the ball and hit the breakdowns en masse won the match for them, then all is great.

But making a comment that might detract in any way shape or form of the magnificance of the Welsh, it must be dismissed because you can only see wales is great and everything else doesn't matter.

As I said, unpleasant reading

[Guest]

Bit of a strange move to hook your loosehead after 43 minutes, just because you aren't getting a fair deal at the scrum.

Very disappointed in this. Still it seems par for the course to blame the Welsh front row for everything. Scott Johnson wanted to as well.

[doctornickolas]

If only we (Wales) could win a game without cheating and completely conning the ref every time. Clearly that is the only reason we beat Scotland and England. That must be the only reason why we scored the most points in the 6N (despite shipping 30 in the first 40 mins of Irish game), conceded the least, didn't concede a try since that first game, had the top try scorer, etc etc.

Much has been said (boringly ) about Wales's Autumn series but we had more injuries that even Ireland have had for this championship. All 4 first choice locks were injured, our first 3 choice tightheads, hooker, etc. Yes we did struggle as a result. But we have won back to back championships. We got stronger as some of those injured players came back such as AWJ. We still started with only 1 first choice lock (out of our 4 normal ones) and he hadn't played for 6 months.

Wales I believe will get stronger. Biggar was an inexperienced rookie but has developed in 5 games to look like he was born to it. Jamie Roberts has juggled medical finals exams in the middle of this and looked like a man on Saturday that had had a big weight taken off his shoulders.

Lydiate, Ryan Jones, Brad Davies and Luke Charteris are currently injured and their return will increase competition and squad strength.

[hugehandoff]

Mods....can you please merge the two threads.....that way rainbow can impart his thoughtful analysis on just 1 thread

Ouch are you still smarting after Saturday? I bet you and the rest would be doing the same had you won, unfortunately you never. And so after the 3rd success put up with it.

The majority of posters on here are knowledgeable and decent, but a minority like yourself enjoy wumming and small mindedness. Luckily most of your countrymen and women were decent winners on Saturday and most England fans were decent losers. shame that on forums like this people like you write such drivel. I have only congratulated Wales on such a fine performance, but I do think that England are well within their rights to sit down with the refs and review the match. Nothing unusual there.

[Guest]

I would have loved to have seen Sheridan this 6n he is roughly the same age as Jones but the two youngsters at LH will benefit from Cardiff. It was always going to be a brave call in the hype of an away game at Cardiff as the last 6n game of the season.
Every front rower can see that Jones generally binds high or on the arm as he is not flexible enough anymore from the battering he has endured over the years in his position. He is a genuine guy and a credit to himself.

The best scrummaging loosehead this year has been Domingo who for his size is unbelievable.

[SecretFly]

Rowntree: "Having watched it, I need clarification. In most games recently, we've submitted glowing reports on referees. On this occasion, we're frustrated."

Hmmm, is that the four wins and the game against New Zealand?????

[mystiroakey]

Let them crack on mate. All unions are guilty of it, or correct in questioning reffing.

Point is us fans or the players understand the crack. You either play to the ref on the day and switch stuff up if needed or you lose the game.

[XR]

Saint-Andre should write a report to the IRB regarding that dubious try that england scored which allowed them a shot at the grand slam, bet rowntree wrote a glowing report for that game.

[fa0019]

I imagine its standard policy for coaching teams to write updates on referee performance.... They will want client feedback for sure.

When you win you're more likely to pass things over.... Do you reckon NZ action on macaws gouge in the rwc final would have been more aggressive had they lost???

[Guest]

It may be standard policy. It's just needn't be standard policy to do it publicly (the key issue here) after such a comprehensive beating.

[Guest]

Saint-Andre should write a report to the IRB regarding that dubious try that england scored which allowed them a shot at the grand slam, bet rowntree wrote a glowing report for that game.

Great point

[GunsGerms]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/frustrated-england-will-challenge-referee-calls-8541351.html

I must say England were quite fortunate for most of the 6N with refereeing calls. They certainly seemed to get away with quite a lot at the breakdown.

[bluestonevedder]

No problem with clarification at all. Rowntree's oviously studied the tape and wants to talk it over to enahnce his and his player's understanding. What is wrong with that?

Claims of arrogance and sore losers are just pathetic. The first thing Lancaster said was that Wales won fair and square and that he had no complaints. That was before the interviewer even asked a question.

Think what you want about the England rugby team, and anyone born in England, but one thing you cannot claim against this England side is arrogance. The are the polar opposite of the team under MJ's charge.

[LondonTiger]

Do you really think Rowntree sought out the press to say he was seeking clarification?

Probably not, just as Gatland did not actively seek out the press when he was reported as being unhappy with the refs in the autumn, nor Howley in the summer. (both times after losing a series of games)

As with them Rowntree responded to a reporters line of questioning, just as his co-lions coaches did before him. When asked the question, should Rowntree have kept quiet, maybe - but then we would have a thread accusing him of being too rude and arrogant to talk to the press.

[XR]

You can never bee too rude to the press

[SecretFly]

A few years back when Ireland started using the 'choke' tackle, they were penalised off the field...game after game. Kidney got mad. He said it was a perfectly legitimate move, that the SH use it and that Ireland shouldn't be getting penalised for it. He took his complaints to the ref high office and they agreed with him. The penalising stopped.

So yes, there is always place for teams registering their frustrations, of course there is. If you play it quiet you'll keep getting pinged... illegally

But it was more the wording Rowntree was using that humoured me. He has really got to be careful about language. You can't use an argument which states you gave glowing reports for recently reffed games unless you know there were a few losses in there to make it all objective.

[mystiroakey]

Its obvcious what happened anyway,

gatland and walsh are chums and Gatland needied an excuse to maximise welsh lions and minimize english..

[nathan]

Of course it didn't effect the win. Doesn't every team submit a report on the ref after a game? What's different this time?

On a side note, these forums are really going downhill with all the wums. It's getting boring reading some of the stuff on here.

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