Six Nations 2017 post-mortem thread

[Shifty]

Ok so what do we think?
For me it's best summed up by a weird paper, scissors rock tournament.  Truth be told the gap is small between the old 5 Nations teams at the moment.  Teams could and did beat each other.

England - Champions
Don't think they are that far in front.  Struggled against France, out foxed by Italy, deserved to lose against Wales.  Totally routed Scotland and finally lost to Ireland.

Scotland -
Didn't mind Wales losing to them as  it will kill off these stupid threads about relegating them for Georgia.  It's just nice to see them competitive again.

Wales -
There's not much between any of the teams so difficult to gauge them.  Better than England but lost.  Crushed by Scotland.  Better then Ireland.
I'm glad the France game finished when it did, I was getting worried, I have work on Monday.

Ireland -
Worse than Scotland and Wales, but better than England and France?

[Heaf]

How do you come to the conclusion that Wales were better than England and that England deserved to lose but somehow won with 2 tries to 1?

[RuggerRadge2611]

I think home advantage is back, 100%.

[nathan]

How do you come to the conclusion that Wales were better than England and that England deserved to lose but somehow won with 2 tries to 1?

I have no idea, it's like results don't matter.

Wales are a little bit better than Italy this year.

[lostinwales]

How do you come to the conclusion that Wales were better than England and that England deserved to lose but somehow won with 2 tries to 1?

I have no idea, it's like results don't matter.

Wales are a little bit better than Italy this year.

Wales have some good individuals and an iron defense. They have in Halfpenny a great kicker. They are also almost devoid of any attacking ability.

They failed to get the bonus point against Italy that everyone else did. They had one decent try vs England, and they got a couple of late scores against a very dogged Irish team but one that is much better holding onto a lead (sadly ) than chasing a game

[tigertattie]

One thing I've noticed is the absolute wummery from some posters. Its time the mods started handing out suspensions and bans. I'm all for banter but things like saying you'd rather finish second bottom rather than winning the title but losing the last game are just plain idiotic.

From a rugby point of view it's a case of home advantage winning out. Unless you're Italy. They've been awful and unless they buck up, the calls for them to go will continue.

France are France. No one knows what they'll produce.

Wales have regressed under Howley

Ireland are predictable and a bit blunt. If they have fire in the belly they can be more intense than their opponents but they struggle in attack.

England are good but not consistent. They can grind out a win and they can turn over teams but ty look over coached and aren't capable of adapting out on the field and need Eddie to hold their hands

Scotland are getting better but after all the huff and puff we still finished fourth. If allowed to play our game we can be great but we're still mentally fragile and can get caught with our pants down.

In general, world rugby need to bring consistency back. Too many games are being decided by the refs interpretation of the laws or are missing many things.

[majesticimperialman]

I think home advantage is back, 100%.


All ways thought the term home advantage was a bit of a myth to be honest.

But looking back ove the 6ns team's have played better when at home.

Team have to travel away to other grounds, and have to find a  way of winning the game away from home.

[aucklandlaurie]

One thing I've noticed is the absolute wummery from some posters. Its time the mods started handing out suspensions and bans. I'm all for banter but things like saying you'd rather finish second bottom rather than winning the title but losing the last game are just plain idiotic.

From a rugby point of view it's a case of home advantage winning out. Unless you're Italy. They've been awful and unless they buck up, the calls for them to go will continue.

France are France. No one knows what they'll produce.

Wales have regressed under Howley

Ireland are predictable and a bit blunt. If they have fire in the belly they can be more intense than their opponents but they struggle in attack.

England are good but not consistent. They can grind out a win and they can turn over teams but ty look over coached and aren't capable of adapting out on the field and need Eddie to hold their hands  

Scotland are getting better but after all the huff and puff we still finished fourth. If allowed to play our game we can be great but we're still mentally fragile and can get caught with our pants down.

In general, world rugby need to bring consistency back. Too many games are being decided by the refs interpretation of the laws or are missing many things.

 Sounds like we should get the mods to manage the referees then there would be no cause for wummery.

[RuggerRadge2611]

So did we finish in 4th or joint 2nd?

[TJ]

Scotland - in the end a disappointment to finish 4th after the best 6N for a long long time. 3 wins, beat 2 teams above us in the rankings, scored a record number of tries. One game we could have won. one stuffing from a perfect storm
6/10

Maybe I'll be happier tomorrow

Ireland - playing as a cohesive team but unable to cope with scotland speed of attack. 5/10

Wales - on a steep downward spiral and they have stored up trouble for themselves by not bringing thru young players. completely blunt in attack - the only threatening player was Webb. The game has moved on but wales have not time to rebuild 3/10

England - not as good as they thought they were. Need a 10 and a 12 who can cope when things don't go their way. need some brains. Getting there tho and deserved winners. 7/10

France - indiffernt and look poorly coached. 4/10

Ialy - woeful Looked like they had lost all confidence. 1/10

[George Carlin]

Agree that whilst mild by 6N standards, the trolls on here are becoming very boring and the mods will put their heads together to decide what to do post-tournament.

I think that spraying generalisations around is very difficult as each team came unstuck at least once and had one game where they just didn't turn up. A lot of matches were very tough and attritional affairs (Wales v Ireland, Ireland v England and France v Scotland were the hard-ass matches for me) and it was difficult to pick a winner at the hour mark. I thought that it was a tournament to remember for the NH establishing credibility.

England - there was a trolling article by Gregor Paul in the NZ Herald this morning which basically stated that England were overrated and that Ireland were actually the world's second best team. I'm not sure that I agree with that. England didn't get out of third gear until the Scotland match, but won regardless. That is impressive whether people like it or not. In terms of team development, they will learn more from that loss to Ireland than they would have done in any sort of victory. When will the English press release that lavishing hyperbole is really not useful? England were clearly the best team over the course of the tournament for me. The way that they handled the French was the stuff of a top drawer team. A team still on the way up.

Ireland - brilliant, but brittle. When the intensity is turned up to 11, they can literally beat anyone with the high risk rush defence but the inability to keep that up over a tournament is curious. I don't blame Joe Schmidt for a lack of attacking edge at times but he really needs to start thinking in terms of bringing on an entire squad and not just a first XV. Again, a team on the up in aggregate.

Wales - what to say? It all just felt very formulaic and stodgy and I am reminded that the other sides in this competition with the exception of Italy have all very much improved since last year. I don't believe that Wales have improved. They could finish strongly in the Pro12 and ERCC and I hope that they do because if Gatland cannot resist taking his old favorites with him on tour, everyone else who isn't Welsh is going to be fantastically p!ssed. There is too much competition on this tour for passengers. Too much reliance on Liam and George to make something out of nothing in attack - all indications are that they need a new attack coach and quickly.

France - most improved side in the tournament - helped in no small part by the fact that in Serin and Lopez they have the dependable and quality halfback hinge that they have not had for at least 5 years. Serin could be one of the best 9s in the world if he keeps developing like this. Guy Noves' traditional low error count was a hallmark for me. Didn't get enough credit for what they have contributed to the tournament. A side on the way up, definitely although they need a clear Plan B if their mauling game is matched by an opposing pack.

Italy - they have suffered with injuries to their few stars but holy moly what a disappointment. Canna cannae continue.

Scotland - highest number of tries and points scored for more than a decade, only the third time we have finished third or higher in the history of the tournament, beat 2 x teams who were (at the time) ranked higher than us, a couple of new caps, invaluable experience for a young second choice front row, emergence of Huw Jones as an attacking star with a lot to work on, stepping up to test level of some players who were previously lacking in that departments, played most of the tournament without our captain. And we're 5th in the world. Although strangely, according to a lot of people on these boards, we're still rubbish. And so the world spins on its arse.

Good team of the tournament thread here:
https://www.606v2.com/t65376-team-of-the-6-nations

[Shifty]

How do you come to the conclusion that Wales were better than England and that England deserved to lose but somehow won with 2 tries to 1?

I think Wales were the better team they just scored less points on the day.  It happens.  It doesn't alter the fact that Wales have been crap though.  Basically we got the 5 Nations wooden spoon.
I'm glad Italy are in the tournament, but having them also gives coaches a sense of security, because pre 6 Nations the coach who finished last normally got the sack. It doesn't happen so much now Italy are in the competition.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Scotland for me deserve a lot of credit. Our best performance in the 6N by a big distance, a record point haul, and beating 2 teams above us in the world rankings. The fact that some posters and pundits still don't rate us is a bit of a shame, considering how far we have come this season.

Despite getting hammered by England we scored 3 tries against them and seemed to be able to unlock any defence we came up against.

With our 1st choice front row we would have been able to attack from the scrum too, however blooding the likes of Alan Dell and Zander Fagerson who is still a child by prop standards, the future looks really bright for the Scottish front row.

Definitely a work in progress and far from the finished article, the humbling at Twickenham will be something this team can digest and learn from.

[carpet baboon]

My personal review.
I drank a lot of Guinness. I mean far to much. Add i to that the bar snacks and takeaways for the walk home and all i can say is tomorrow the gym is going to hurt. A lot
There will be tears
And possibly vomit.
But i shall prevail

[catchweight]

With Scotland on the up, its going to get very lonely for Italy. Real question marks now over them.

[SecretFly]

I think home advantage is back, 100%.

I think yes, that proved to be the case. And I hate it. As a coach I'd have the hairdryer for those away games. It's psychology (for the home side of course) but also for the away side - and I'd want to kick the bejaysus out of that psychology if I were coach. I'd be doing a Cheika on some £30,000 dressing room doors!

[mikey_dragon]

How do you come to the conclusion that Wales were better than England and that England deserved to lose but somehow won with 2 tries to 1?

I have no idea, it's like results don't matter.

Wales are a little bit better than Italy this year.

23 points better than Italy is more than a little bit me thinks. Good to see you carrying your worst fan tag across to other threads .

[eirebilly]

England : A mixed bag for me. I think the fact that they were so used to winning got them over the line against Wales. Very deserved champions but still a lot of work to be done. Best team won this 6N, even if they did lose to Ireland.

Ireland : Coulda, shoulda, woulda for Ireland. Completely out thought in both the Scotland and Wales games. Only injuries forced Schmidt to select the correct players in their correct positions got Ireland the win over England. Points on Italy was the difference between Ireland, Scotland and France.

France : Could turn it on very well at times but looked utterly devoid of ideas at other times. They have the players, just not sure they are coached properly. Also think the amount of overseas players in the top 14 looking for one last big pay day is affecting them.

Scotland : Come along in leaps and bounds under Cotter. From a team that could not cross the whitewash, they are looking very good and scoring tries. Hopefully they will continue to develop now Cotter has gone.

Wales : Solid team capable of winning the 6N but are poorly coached and predictable. Very similar to the Irish, coach's do not want to change style or personnel.

Italy : I may be on my own here, they did not win a game but at times they played some decent rugby. Still a long way off and I think Parisse has now retired from international rugby? Connor has some work to do.

[SecretFly]

England: A seriously good side when allowed to play.  The beauty for them at the moment is that only a few teams have the energy to stop them playing for a full 80.  They rely on teams corroding before them and then they usually turn on the even more ruthless stuff in the second half.  But I do think Jones should be a little more concerned than he's probably making out in public.  This tournament represented a first real fight back against his methods and, through a good few games, the opposition were well in the fight.  I think that will have annoyed Jones a bit even though he always says that England still have room for much improvement.  Maybe they have, but maybe they are already about to be reeled back in by the teams immediately beneath them?
Still though the best side in Europe for consistently putting in quality performances.

Wales:  Damn those boys!  My mantra still holds - no team has more passionate desire to fight to the death in rugby than Wales.  It's dreadful to watch.  I hate them, I do!  You can never knock them off you or humiliate them into losing hope and giving up.  They just keep at you, keep throwing bundles of energy at you and you haven't a clue where it's coming from.  You want the basterdes to just lose energy and will and fight and dignity....but there they are, in your face for 100 bleedin' minutes in every game!
I'm not sure whether they are going up or down or whether they are static.  These things are hard to judge given how fluid the form is of all other sides around them.  I think they are similar to Ireland.  They are still using a bunch of undroppables in a good few positions and those guys keep giving 100% of what they can give - but is their 100% genuinely good enough now as England rises into SH standard quality (including bench).

Scotland:  A team that needs all of its undroppables to be undropped/uninjured in every game.  A team that needs to play 100% in all games to stay in with a chance.  When playing 100% through 80 they can evidently take on anyone.  They have improved a lot under Cotter as George points out, with a great try scoring haul.  But little sparkle eyed Laidlaw and big bearded battering ram Strauss are probably two undroppables they couldn't afford to drop in this very competitive 6N of 2017.  I'm not sure how happy or disappointed they are with 3rd but with a new coach now showing up, it's going to be a nervous time for them as they hope the upward direction of their achievements continues now uninterrupted by the changing of the coaching ticket.

France:  You might say improvement but then you might say not nearly enough under a legendary coach.  I'd have expected more at this point.  Novès has had time enough now, and has a large player base to pick from, to be showing more fruits.  There is always questions of just how much heart French players have for International and I say if that's still a question then they are still in a very bad place.  They can still rise up and again be a big player in the next world cup, but that kind of ultra selective concentration on one distinct competition is cheating their fans of so much more.  They've even found in this 6N that their bulk and impact stuff has been less effective than they perhaps expected it to be.
Novès needs to work harder - I don't know the Nationality of his assistant coaches but it might help him to get an outside (perhaps SH) voice into his camp if he doesn't already have one.

Ireland:  Lost to Scotland because Scotland were good enough to win.  Lost to Wales because the Welsh were more than good enough to win.  But we've not been selecting players very well.  We were offering nothing to the opposition that wasn't predictable in most of our games.  
Ireland hasn't pushed on from a pretty good and effective 2016.  We've fallen back into the doldrums of normality and we've reacquainted ourselves fully with the auld love of our lives - inconsistency.  
But inconsistency has its causes.  It just doesn't happen on a whim, it's embedded in our ever ready desire to play pragmatic rugby.  We try to play a tricky kind of game where we get by in games by just doing enough and no more.  Part of that comes from the players themselves and their readiness to accept 3 or 4 sub-standard performances to prepare for the 1 big performance.  Part of it rests with the coaches - I still think we lack a driving, emotional assistant coach that will get the players into a mood in all games to throw the kitchen sink at it.  Irish players need to be fired with a degree of emotion but they seem to use that tool very sparingly in recent years.  When they play just to technically/clinically win and no more, then they become infinitely beatable.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Do you know what I've noticed, coaches, captains and players using the word "look" in post match interviews.

For example:

Interviewer : Good result for you today, how much an influence did the injuries have in the end result do you think?
Interviewee : er yeah look, I think we played really well today, the boys fronted up well and we played the game in the right areas.

[SecretFly]

Do you know what I've noticed, coaches, captains and players using the word "look" in post match interviews.

For example:

Interviewer : Good result for you today, how much an influence did the injuries have in the end result do you think?
Interviewee : er yeah look, I think we played really well today, the boys fronted up well and we played the game in the right areas.

Yeah, 'Look' is a big favourite with sporting personel being interviewed in a tunnel.... along with 'yeah'.

Interviewer:  "You're not too happy with some of the decision out there by the referee."
Innterviewee:  "Yeah, look No, we're not.  But look, it's a game of 80 minutes or 100 minutes, whichever clock the ref is working off."

[whocares]

Do you know what I've noticed, coaches, captains and players using the word "look" in post match interviews.

For example:

Interviewer : Good result for you today, how much an influence did the injuries have in the end result do you think?
Interviewee : er yeah look, I think we played really well today, the boys fronted up well and we played the game in the right areas.

Yeah, 'Look' is a big favourite with sporting personel being interviewed in a tunnel.... along with 'yeah'.

Interviewer:  "You're not to happy with some of the decision out there by the referee."
Innterviewee:  "Yeah, look No, we're not.  But look, it's a game of 80 minutes or 100 minutes, whichever clock the ref is working off."

Funny,usage of words such as look, see etc is typical of "Visual learners" when I thought sportsmen were more from the kinesthetic type.

[TJ]

A wee point - looking at the final table bonus points made zero differnce to the placing - they would have been the same without

[Alex_Germany]

So did we finish in 4th or joint 2nd?

Were England under Lancaster joint winners - for what, 3 years running?

Or were they second?

[Recwatcher16]

World Rugby needs to look at all sides when attacking with the ball as they all go off their feet or seal the ball off with impunity. Twenty plus continuous rucks, which are extraordinary in the history of the game are common place - RL without the sixth tackle.
That also makes set piece more important for possession yet crooked feeds to both lineout and scrum are a blight on the game.

All in all it makes a defensive game plan and mindset, when at home, pay dividends.

Thought most of the games were high on physicality and theatre but were for the purist only.

[Scottrf]

Good, competitive tournament. Very hard to win away from home. Italy useless and need to go (no replacement - 2 sets of 2 games).

[Barney McGrew did it]

End of term report for this series is a bit of a curate’s egg. A 2nd championship in a row for England isn’t to be sniffed at, but no GS takes a bit of the shine off it. Has there been an improvement in quality since last year? Well very limited I’d say.

England failed to get the 2nd GS so you’d have to say no improvement for me. Jeez do we miss Robshaw. Still the best in the NH though.

Ireland, up to the last game, were the most disappointing side. After the England game…still pretty disappointing. They have to be better than beating England, at home, just to end up a distant 2nd.

France..ahh which France will turn up? Well for years it’s been the distinctly average France. No change there then. A big fat pack, backs that can run a bit, but where is the footballing quality? At least they can play the full 80 100 minutes.

Scotland – the most improved side for sure. But hell, many years will have to pass before they get over the shameful spanking they got from England.

Wales – hmmm 5th says it all. Let’s move on (because they haven’t).

Italy – well the happy clappy stuff against England was a hoot. But nil point, and they were lucky to get that.

So, lots of excitement, some memorable games, all the teams a bit over-hyped, a little underwhelming quality wise.

[SecretFly]

Ireland, up to the last game, were the most disappointing side. After the England game…still pretty disappointing. They have to be better than beating England, at home, just to end up a distant 2nd.

Yeah, disappointing Ireland campaign, I agree.  Misfiring all over the place - and still ending up 2nd.  How many 'If Only's could you throw at that?  Had we shown just a little more juice and savvy either against Wales or Scotland and who knows.  Scotland might say the same about their campaign and Wales are already saying it about theirs (Webb).

So a distant second means one win less than England, two less tries for, one less try against?  Hmmm - and being the 'most disappointing side' in the contest (which I agree with if you don't count Italy)?   Okay, we were miles behind in 2nd.

[Pot Hale]

Only two observations from me.

Scotland most improved team but now have hit the same problem as Wales and Ireland have had - lack of depth when injuries hit. Townsend coming in should help on that front. My team of the 6N.

Ireland finished closing the match in England's 22. Which is where they should have been against Scotland when they took the lead. Maybe they've learned something.

Other than that, enjoyed the Championship, banter, etc.

Until next year.....

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