New Zealand vs England - Third Test

by Stella Wed 20 Mar 2013, 9:19 am

First topic message reminder :

Are we going to get a result? With decent weather, I think we will, and dare I say it to England.

The only change I can see is Bracewell coming in for the Kiwi's, although there was talk of England playing five bowlers, which I would be surprised at.

Broad is the only England bowler who has looked anything near his best, but with Jimmy who needs five wickets for 300, and Finn, who will hopefully pitch the ball up, things should improve.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri 22 Mar 2013, 11:10 pm

Prior

Thank god Fulton is out. Good innings by him, but stalled New Zealand's progress massively this morning.

by mystiroakey Fri 22 Mar 2013, 11:11 pm

Awesome session for England Very Happy

by Mike Selig Fri 22 Mar 2013, 11:12 pm

That is a fantastic catch you have to say.

New Zealand look confused. Shades of England in the first innings of the first test.

England have a massive opportunity now. McCullum will give you chances, particularly on this pitch, and particularly if he plays in two minds.

by mystiroakey Fri 22 Mar 2013, 11:14 pm

darn.. overturned

by NickisBHAFC Fri 22 Mar 2013, 11:14 pm

What a shame about that, losing McCullum could of been a huge wicket Sad

Bed time for me

by Mike Selig Fri 22 Mar 2013, 11:18 pm

In fairness I don't think England have bowled that much better than they did yesterday. Some poor batting and a bit more luck has made most of the difference.

Having said that, that was a very good finish to the over from Finn.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri 22 Mar 2013, 11:52 pm

Interesting debate about the effects of the shorter run up for Finn on Sky between Fraser, Atherton and Willis.

Fraser and Willis both advocating the longer run up, due to less injuries due to the less explosiveness of it, and the added rhythm you get from a longer run up

by guildfordbat Sat 23 Mar 2013, 12:27 am

Mike Selig wrote:
Guildford, many thanks for the response. You raise some valid points, not all I agree with. I was travelling home today (holidays, which despite the common impression of students these I actually do feel I've earned) which is why I didn't respond earlier.

You are right to raise a couple of points:
- we shouldn't judge the pitch too quickly
- New Zealand deserve credit for the way they've batted.

My view was probably blinkered by having watched 3 hours of some of the dullest cricket I have ever witnessed last night/early this morning. I have nothing in general against attritional cricket (I love nothing better than watching a side guts it out for a draw, or the 3rd morning of the Brisbane ashes test when Anderson bowled truly a fantastic spell of swing and seam bowling, and was repelled by Hussey and Haddin with wonderful skill and no short measure of luck). Providing it also reflects the skill of the players. I do not feel this pitch does that. There is of course a challenge of mental concentration but there is little skill required (comparitively) IMO, and certainly not much luck. Providing you do not play a bad shot, you shouldn't get out. There will be a little bit every morning where the ball swings, but...

New Zealand have batted well, and indeed have done so throughout the series. They deserve credit for that, and in particular their top order for not repeating the capitulation against South Africa.

Where I will carry on disagreeing with you is your assessment of the toss, and who is in control of the game. I believe this to be partly a generational thing. The classical way to deal with flat pitches has been to amass runs and rely on scoreboard pressure. The trouble with this approach is that it views a draw as significantly a better result than a defeat. I am not sure that is true anymore, particularly in deciding tests. There is a view now (rightly or wrongly) that cricket is also entertainment, and that the players have a duty to entertain as well as perform (this is of course nothing new, Benaud's australians played by that motto back in the 60s, but I believe it is more prevalent now).

You say England are playing catch-up now. I am not sure that is true. They will be playing catch-up when they start batting probably, but for now it is actually New Zealand who are under pressure to make the running. If they carry on today as they did yesterday (and have started this morning) then they will reach 500 at the end of the day. I don't think that leaves them with enough runs or time to win the match.

There is a general feeling now that you can control the game (or at least the pace) better in such instances bowling first. To some extent England have done that (although they'd have liked 2 more wickets at least on day 1). The pressure to chase a result is now with New Zealand. For now.

Mike - thanks for your own response.

I agree with you that assessment of the toss is partly a generational thing. I almost used that expression in my post but thought it might be viewed as a bit of a cop out! Wink

I understand the need to entertain although I guess - as you might say- it depends how you define 'entertainment'. I suspect it has different meanings to different people. From a New Zealand spectator's perspective, this morning's batting performance was surely very disappointing. Particularly after the position their fine play had put them in at the end of day one. Today they lacked assertion (certainly some credit to England for that) and seemed unsure as to what they were chasing. More keen to potter on for a draw than properly strive for the win. At least people at this lunchbreak are talking more about the play of the two teams rather judging than the pitch - which is partly where I came in earlier.

Who is in control? England have clearly fought back well and 500 now looks a long way off for New Zealand. However, they should still make at least 400 from here which will make an England victory difficult at least. That was really my reference to 'catch up'. We'll need to bat well to match New Zealand and then overtake them. The expectation to do so plus a hurried pace may cause us additional problems. I think there's more pressure on us because drawing the series will be seen as much better for New Zealand than England.

On a more general point you raise, Test captains generally now set out to try to win each match whilst in the 1960s and '70s the tendency far more was not to lose. Benaud and Sobers were way ahead of their time in this regard. This change in approach is certainly welcomed by me although I'm not sure how it squares with the emphasis on Test rankings. I assume it's better ranking wise to draw a 3 match series 0-0 than lose 2-1.

Anyway back to watching for a little bit more. This might yet end up a more interesting Test than we thought ....

by gboycottnut Sat 23 Mar 2013, 12:30 am

Olly wrote:Interesting debate about the effects of the shorter run up for Finn on Sky between Fraser, Atherton and Willis.

Fraser and Willis both advocating the longer run up, due to less injuries due to the less explosiveness of it, and the added rhythm you get from a longer run up

However despite such theory about the less explosiveness from a longer runup, the longer run up does make it more harder for fast bowlers to maintain their highest speeds throughout a test season and is more likely to lead to fast bowlers retiring early from the game. Richard Hadlee is the best example of such a fast bowler who wisely cut down his long runup from his early part of his playing career to that of a shorter runup such that he could better maintain his bowling speeds throughout the latter part of his career when the strains of having to play county cricket as well as lead the NZ bowling attack in international cricket were starting to take its toll on him as he got older.

by mystiroakey Sat 23 Mar 2013, 8:28 am

ermmm.

NZ up in this one. another goodish day

We need to smash 500 tommorow.. get ahead. then bowl em out for 50

by Carrotdude Sat 23 Mar 2013, 8:53 am

England bowled much better yesterday, especially Finn, which potentially shows that although the pitch isn't great, we didn't do enough with the ball on day 1 and let NZ get away, in the end 190 odd for 9 is a very good effort after the initial 250/1. As for England our 2 'rocks' have gone already so some rebuilding to be done tomorrow, unfortunately it appears difficult to score quickly which increases the chance of a draw or a NZ win but we'll wait and see how Bairstow and Prior find it before judging that totally I guess,

by Diggers Sat 23 Mar 2013, 9:30 am

Could be a struggle for England here big time. Cook and Trott gone, the Bell Compton partnership is crucial as who knows what we are going to get from Root and Bairstow. It's time like this you miss KP, even though the guy is a tool of the highest order.
Slightly worrying that Anderson seems to be more reliable than outstanding these days. England needed more wickets from their main bowler, he's worked hard but hasn't really delivered.

by Carrotdude Sat 23 Mar 2013, 9:32 am

I think Anderson's been a little unlucky, beaten the bat quite a lot without getting many edges but he hasn't been on top of his game.

by Diggers Sat 23 Mar 2013, 9:42 am

I get worried when bowlers get described as unlucky though, Flintoff being the obvious example, I never bought the balls just too good theory, he just stopped being a real strike bowler and became brilliant at holding up an end and chipping in.
Problem is without Swann and questions still over Finn and Broad we need lots of wickets from Jimmy. I know he has a few strains but he hasn't bowled that much this winter really, makes you wonder how well he will hold up in the Ashes back to backers.

by Duty281 Sat 23 Mar 2013, 10:14 am

Amazing what scoreboard pressure can do. England will have to dig deep now.

by Guest Sat 23 Mar 2013, 10:33 am

Good to see Finny in the wickets..however im convinced he needs to go back to his long run!

by msp83 Sat 23 Mar 2013, 5:46 pm

The early wicket of captain Cook always set England back, and now without Pietersen in the middle order, thee will be even more pressure on the rest of the lineup. But Nick Compton has been in fine form, and Joe Root, despite his 3 failings in the tests, is quality, and Prior and Bairstow are also capable of shifting the gears quickly. Even a fine day of batting from England is unlikely to take them passed the NZ total. England will have to bat really big, bat close to tea on day for and then try and push for the win. A very difficult task indeed.
The odds are now more in NZ's favor. Couple of early wickets, there is every chance there would be some panick in that England batting lineup. If NZ manages a health first innings lead, they have to bat again and bat well, put up a score from where they can't lose and then perhaps push for the win. Actually I think it may not be all bad for England if they gets bowled for 370-380 by end of the day tomorrow, a New Zealand collapse in the 2nd innings looks the only realistic chance for England to win this one. At this stage, NZ are favorites to win or draw this one, England would need someone to really play out of their skins tomorrow.

by guildfordbat Sat 23 Mar 2013, 8:09 pm

The loss of Cook and Trott in that final session have certainly made things more tricky for us. I feel chances of an England win now are slim to very slim - not only do we have to play well but we have to look to New Zealand to badly fall away from a strong position.

Still need almost 200 more to avoid the follow on. That shouldn't be a serious worry although, as msp suggests, we can't afford to lose a couple of early wickets in today's first session ...

by mystiroakey Sat 23 Mar 2013, 8:18 pm

Trott gone takes the draw away i suppose. its all about the win now..

root and bairtsow have what it takes

by mystiroakey Sat 23 Mar 2013, 9:45 pm

good review... out

by JDizzle Sat 23 Mar 2013, 9:46 pm

Exactly what DRS should be used for. Fair enough decision from the ump and then good review and right decision reached.

Really in some trouble now though...

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 23 Mar 2013, 9:49 pm

Time for the young uns to show us what they're made of!

by JDizzle Sat 23 Mar 2013, 10:09 pm

Oh dear.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 23 Mar 2013, 10:10 pm

Right down to the young uns now then!

Step up messers Root and Bairstow!

by beninho Sat 23 Mar 2013, 10:16 pm

the only way England can win this is to be bowled out cheaply. either go big on a follow on or bowl them out going for quick runs. I have no faith in these two yorkies.

by JDizzle Sat 23 Mar 2013, 10:24 pm

Serious, serious trouble here...

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 23 Mar 2013, 10:27 pm

That was plumb as plumb can get, can't believe the umpire didn't give it out on first viewing!

Gonna take some serious batting to get us within a shout of avoiding the follow on now!

by beninho Sat 23 Mar 2013, 10:28 pm

bairstow hadn't played a fc innings since august. with Monty not bowling since India tests. it catches up after a while.

by dyrewolfe Sat 23 Mar 2013, 10:31 pm

If we lose 1 more wicket in the next half an hour I'm switching off and having an early night so I'll be fresher to watch the Malaysian GP.

This IS New Zealand we're playing and not South Africa or Australia, right? This is absolutely pitiful, given NZ showed it was a good batting wicket.

by beninho Sat 23 Mar 2013, 10:37 pm

nz lost 9 for under 200 yesterday. seems that best batting day was day one. which is unusual for a drop in pitch.

by JDizzle Sat 23 Mar 2013, 10:42 pm

It's nibbled about a little about, but let's not kid ourselves; these are still pretty prime batting conditions. NZ have bowled well, but England have been poor with the bat.

by beninho Sat 23 Mar 2013, 10:46 pm

at some point I'd like to see England risk a defeat by going for a win. though would nz make England follow on?

by JDizzle Sat 23 Mar 2013, 10:49 pm

Depends how close England get. Unless NZ have a lead of 260/270, I'd imagine they'd enforce the follow on. And barring a dramatic NZ collapse second time, I think the best Eng can hope for is a draw from here.

by dyrewolfe Sat 23 Mar 2013, 10:51 pm

Yes of course. Credit to NZ - they've looked pretty tight with their bowling and fielding, but they did also demonstrate that with some sensible strokeplay, you should be able to build a good total.

Instead it looks like we'll be all out for 200-250.

by guildfordbat Sat 23 Mar 2013, 10:52 pm

beninho wrote:at some point I'd like to see England risk a defeat by going for a win. though would nz make England follow on?

Beninho - On first innings we are currently trailing by 363 with 5 wickets down. What exactly are you suggesting?

by beninho Sat 23 Mar 2013, 11:02 pm

at some point I'd like to see England risk a defeat by going for a win. though would nz make England follow on?

by beninho Sat 23 Mar 2013, 11:06 pm

sorry for double post not sure what happened there..

I still think (hope) we can get over 200. that puts pressure on nz to score quickly enough to give themselves time to bowl us out again. but we could have a dash at whatever we are set...unless nz go ultra conservative with a declaration.

by beninho Sat 23 Mar 2013, 11:07 pm

bob Willis is awful.

by Carrotdude Sat 23 Mar 2013, 11:09 pm

This is probably the worst England Test performance I can remember. Pathetic. NZ are an absolute class above and are playing excellently.

by JDizzle Sat 23 Mar 2013, 11:10 pm

Root 9* (48) and Prior 9* (35). Yes, rebuild but we must not go completely into our shells. Need to keep the scoreboard ticking over with singles, especially against Martin.

by Carrotdude Sat 23 Mar 2013, 11:13 pm

Martin is absolutely nothing special, he is bang average and we just let him bowl whatever he likes at us, no attempt whatsoever to try and get runs off him at all.

by guildfordbat Sat 23 Mar 2013, 11:13 pm

I don't think anyone should get too wrapped up about time yet. There's still well over half this match left to go.

by Carrotdude Sat 23 Mar 2013, 11:14 pm

Why are England batting for the draw then!? What purpose is this blocking serving?

by beninho Sat 23 Mar 2013, 11:17 pm

if this is the worst England performance you can remember, then you have a poor memory or new to England cricket!! I am still scarred by the 90's when just getting into the game. Ronnie IranI test cricketer....shudder

by alfie Sat 23 Mar 2013, 11:19 pm

England in a bit of trouble here it seems ! Have been traveling so have not seen any of this but from the scores I've been seeing and the early comments on here that this pitch was a bowler's graveyard I have to ask what the devil has happened to England's batting ? No KP no England ? Or has the pitch suddenly changed character ?

by beninho Sat 23 Mar 2013, 11:19 pm

England aren't batting for a draw, just trying to get through a tricky period with nz bowling and fielding well. rather they scrape some runs rather then do something stupid.

by JDizzle Sat 23 Mar 2013, 11:19 pm

It's not about batting time, once you let maiden after maiden tick by the batsmen start to feel the pressure and will play a reckless shot and get out. If we allow NZ to bowl maidens then they can keep men up and keep the pressure on but if we can just tick along at 3 an over then they will have to begin to put men back and that's how we'll get back on top of this. They way this is going, a big shot is coming in a minute and then we'll bemoan them for getting out with that shot when the problem was that they never should have let themselves get into the situation where they thought they needed to play that shot.

by Carrotdude Sat 23 Mar 2013, 11:22 pm

I've seen us get thumped before, seen us look rubbish before, I was young in the 90's but I remember bits and pieces of some terrible times but this seems worse purely because we have a better team than NZ and make a pitch look flat as anything when we bowl and then bat as negatively and badly as you could possibly imagine. I think it's because they are playing so much below their ability and their usual standards. I think they rocked up in New Zealand expecting to roll them over with no problems whatsoever and have come up against a much better and more determined side than they expected.

by beninho Sat 23 Mar 2013, 11:23 pm

pitch seems ok. bowl well and can get rewards. but England have batted poorly and lost wickets to bad shots. could have done with kp but he wasn't looking fluent in the other tests.

by guildfordbat Sat 23 Mar 2013, 11:26 pm

Carrotdude wrote:Why are England batting for the draw then!? What purpose is this blocking serving?

Carrot - you need to point the finger at Compton, Bell and Bairstow all getting out in the first hour. Root and Prior need to take us to tea, not just lunch. Once the fifth wicket went down so quickly, the priority was not to lose the sixth. We can assess and worry about strike rates later on.

I would add that New Zealand - particularly Southee and Boult - have bowled very well. Their fielding has also been very sharp.

David Lloyd has also just backed up a major part of my earlier posts with Mike that ''the damage was done on day one when New Zealand scored 250-1''. [I appreciate Mike disagrees with that view and why.]

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