Gloucester to Rescue England Attack ?

First topic message reminder :

Gloucester is unfashionably West of the London axis and in some minds has a (wholly outdated) reputation for a grunt and grind club.
England need go forward, creativity and sheer speed in attack.
So ponder on what a selection from some of these young Gloucester lads could do for the future of the England attack:

8 Morgan - go forward
10 Burns - just magic
12 12trees - creative angles / distribution
13 Trinder - attack centre
11 May - angles,+ a great step, AND sheer finishing speed
AP player of the month: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zNyZ1WR-a4

Without mentioning Sinbad (too late sadly) Sharples (out of favour)

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But then i didnt realise Youngs was only 23...seems to have been around for donkeys.

Made hi stigers debut in 2007 against Argentina.

Coming off the bench against Bristol was then the youngest player to appear in the premiership. Came of the bench in the GP final thrashing of Glaws and was going to be on the bench for the 2007 HEC final but Wasps were within the rules when appealing against the emergency registration given by ERC (Ian humphreys was SH cover on the bench in th eend). All of this was when he was 17.

Was a replacement in the 2008 JWC final, and started in the 2009 JWC final. Harry Ellis injury woes saw him getting regular game time and he was promoted to the full england squad for the 2010 6Ns (still 20). Came off the bench twice in that Championship and got his first start in the second test in Aus that year winning MotM.

So yeah has been a round a while, but started young.

First England cap was off the bench onto the wing if I remember correctly?

beshocked wrote:It's not Care and Youngs' fault. It's the gameplan is it?

I am not saying that, and you damn well know it, you are just looking for a fight.

the current plan devised by the coaches is devised around defensive tightness first and foremost. they will open out as the players get to know each other - but right now players like Care, Youngs, Barritt, Ashton & Goode who are capable of attacking are being asked to rein it in. throw in Farrell and Manu as well and all of tehm need to improve certain basic skills - but that is the case with all players and all teams.

quite why you have decided to have a go at these two I have no idea?

bluestonevedder wrote:
First England cap was off the bench onto the wing if I remember correctly?

Replacing Monye I think

Yeh, think you're right LT.

Great piece of rugby quiz knowledge there

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:They are in pole position currently and deservedly so but I don't think either as good as Dawson or Bracken were. If they can become as good as those two I will be very happy.

Tied to a conservative gameplan? A player should be able to adapt and vary his game according to circumstances.

You truly believe that if a coaching team spends all week getting the team to practice certain tactics and ways of playing that one player will suddenley be in a position to change all that?

It is obvious that England have practised certain things, and have certain patterns. For either scrum half to suddenly do something unexpected they need to have faith that their team-mates will be on the same wavelength - otherwise it just leads to disaster.

I think you're both right. They're not as good as those two but it hasn't helped playing for an England team with a very toothless attack. We've had zero set moves off first phase ball and the centres have stodged up any good quick ball.

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's not Care and Youngs' fault. It's the gameplan is it?

I am not saying that, and you damn well know it, you are just looking for a fight.

the current plan devised by the coaches is devised around defensive tightness first and foremost. they will open out as the players get to know each other - but right now players like Care, Youngs, Barritt, Ashton & Goode who are capable of attacking are being asked to rein it in. throw in Farrell and Manu as well and all of tehm need to improve certain basic skills - but that is the case with all players and all teams.

quite why you have decided to have a go at these two I have no idea?

The attack starts first with the forwards then goes further back - 9,10,12,13,11 and 14 then 15.

I think the Gloucester players might well help but none are a quick fix.

I don't think throwing May and Twelvetrees into the backs will magically mean England will have a decent attack - scoring tries left right and centre.

Look at the Italy game as an example. Care and Flood are known supposedly two attacking half backs - even with them in charge the backline faltered.

You might say but they had one dimensional centres...the one dimensional centres who were part of the NZ win, one of those one dimensional centres played a decent part in beating Scotland too.

I have always felt the problem is quick ball. I don't think either Care or Youngs has the snappiest delivery. Youngs vs Wales in my opinion seemed to too casually walk to the ruck to get the ball out. Quick and clean ball is key to a good attack - stretching defences etc. It's the forwards and scrum half who are key to this. Once you have quick ball and are on the front foot then Youngs and Care are in their element. Getting that quick ball is in my opinion then struggle to generate.

So after all that you do agree that we should stick with Care and Youngs then.

The key is sorting out quick ball. We got it against NZ and Scotland and scored tries.

For various reasons we did not against Ireland and France.

Against Italy and Wales we did in the first half of each game but butchered chances.



The current backline can attack - we know that but the gameplan as well as slwo ball has made it harder.

Equally:
Brown is not a winger.
Ashton is out of form.
Manu had a poor match v Wales.

LondonTiger wrote:The key is sorting out quick ball. We got it against NZ and Scotland and scored tries.

For various reasons we did not against Ireland and France.

Against Italy and Wales we did in the first half of each game but butchered chances.



The current backline can attack - we know that but the gameplan as well as slwo ball has made it harder.

Equally:
Brown is not a winger.
Ashton is out of form.
Manu had a poor match v Wales.

He had a pretty poor tournament really. I thought against NZ he may have turned a corner, his angles and distribution were far better. But is he really a top class 13 in the making or a top class winger? I suppose at wing his kicking game may get found out more, but used correctly I wonder if he'd actually be more effective there? The defensive solidity with him at 13 shouldn't be sniffed at either I suppose. I just have my concerns that his lack of awareness is becoming more of a hindrance than a help.

Yappysnap yes.

Londontiger I agree with all that.

Most backs don't perform well when their pack is getting beaten up and ball is slow but it's the backs who get the most flack. Equally when the pack does well it's generally the backs who get the glory.

Hood83 in regards to Manu so did I. To be fair Barritt doesn't help either but neither are the real problem in my opinion.

Also one person who doesn't seem to get any criticism is Mike Catt - surely as attack coach he should be giving the team some advice.

I do agree with you guys though that May,36,Burns, Wade need opportunities to prove themselves but quick ball is ultimately the key to a good attack. Offloads etc.

An attacking mindset instilled into every players too.

I think one of the principle challenges with Manu in the team is finding the best way to make use of him. His set of attacking skills just dont come around very often

LondonTiger wrote:The key is sorting out quick ball. We got it against NZ and Scotland and scored tries.

For various reasons we did not against Ireland and France.

Against Italy and Wales we did in the first half of each game but butchered chances.



The current backline can attack - we know that but the gameplan as well as slwo ball has made it harder.

Equally:
1/ Brown is not a winger.
2/ Ashton is out of form.
3/ Manu had a poor match v Wales.

1/ May is a winger. and AP player of the month
2/ replace him with a form winger, a few to choose from, or / Manu option ?
3/ replace Barritt with 12x3, improve service to Manu.

and Morgan back at 8 will help open up the plays off the scrum.
And finally coach B Youngs to hurry up a bit.

beshocked wrote:Yappysnap yes.

Londontiger I agree with all that.

Most backs don't perform well when their pack is getting beaten up and ball is slow but it's the backs who get the most flack. Equally when the pack does well it's generally the backs who get the glory.

Hood83 in regards to Manu so did I. To be fair Barritt doesn't help either but neither are the real problem in my opinion.

Also one person who doesn't seem to get any criticism is Mike Catt - surely as attack coach he should be giving the team some advice.
I do agree with you guys though that May,36,Burns, Wade need opportunities to prove themselves but quick ball is ultimately the key to a good attack. Offloads etc.

An attacking mindset instilled into every players too.

Completely agree, and I have been questioning him.

It's bad enough having the PR man Lancaster at the helm with his questionable experience, but a newbie like Catt with no tangible proof of attack coach skills is a shocker

And when we did have quick ball Barritt actually looked very good.

Maybe it's worth sticking with him at 13 and 36 at 12 for a little while and see how they go. Manu can come off the bench or play wing

yappysnap wrote:

beshocked wrote:Yappysnap yes.

Londontiger I agree with all that.

Most backs don't perform well when their pack is getting beaten up and ball is slow but it's the backs who get the most flack. Equally when the pack does well it's generally the backs who get the glory.

Hood83 in regards to Manu so did I. To be fair Barritt doesn't help either but neither are the real problem in my opinion.

Also one person who doesn't seem to get any criticism is Mike Catt - surely as attack coach he should be giving the team some advice.
I do agree with you guys though that May,36,Burns, Wade need opportunities to prove themselves but quick ball is ultimately the key to a good attack. Offloads etc.

An attacking mindset instilled into every players too.

Completely agree, and I have been questioning him.

It's bad enough having the PR man Lancaster at the helm with his questionable experience, but a newbie like Catt with no tangible proof of attack coach skills is a shocker

Someone made the point a while back that SL may have cynically populated his coaching team with tyros to prevent any of them from over-riding his own lack of experience. Possibly a little unfair but it does highlight the relative inexperience of this group. It doesn't necessarily need to be a problem, I know Rowntree is apparently well thought of by the players, but Catt, Farrell and SL is VERY green.

what happened to harry ellis?

He was forced to retire Damage

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/7878629/England-and-Leicester-scrum-half-Harry-Ellis-forced-to-retire-through-injury.html

He was a great little player- so tenacious in defence

Knee injury - I believe its quite controversial but cant remember who caused it

Catty is interview here

http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/march/news-articles/200313_catt

no sound at work, does he say anything useful?

Basically he's not worried, he's looked at the videos and we're creating lots of chances so it's fine.

Just need to work on execution and decision making.

Defences are much tougher now.

Not sure if that's anything unexpected in an open interview.

Watching that video the first Welsh try comes from such blatant illegal ruck work it's unreal.

yappysnap wrote:...

Watching that video the first Welsh try comes from such blatant illegal ruck work it's unreal.

I was looking at it and for starters Owens goes off his feet however briefly and the way the ball is spilled could easily be called as a Welsh knock on. Those are 'grey areas' yes - but you know what would have happened had things been the other way around. We got lucky with the try vs France so I guess what goes around etc. Neither event decided the game thankfully

Sorting out the attack isn't actually as drastic a challenge as it may seem IMO.

1. We need go forward in attack which will (hopefully) allow the forwards to control the breakdown better. In other words we need a number 8 who can carry which we have in Morgan and Vunipola. They may be raw and have question marks over their fitness but they can definitely carry.

2. We need to get the ball to the wings. For this we need a distributor in the backline - enter Twelvetrees. I know that Barritt is exceptional in defence and improving in attack but he still offers little in attack. Also Twelvetrees can hopefully get more out of Tuilagi who, whilst poor at the back-end of the 6N, is still an exceptional weapon if used well.

3. Pace on the wings when the ball gets there. Quite self explanatory and for this I'd select Johnny May on the left and Ben Foden on the right moving Mike Brown to FB (he's the best 15 England have got so pick him there please!).