The Greatest: Final Teams & Discussion

These threads started on 19 December 2012.

Over the next three months, you shortlisted players in each position from a (very) long list which I provided and then you chose your team. Votes are now in and there are three teams below – (i) the one you chose as consisting of the greatest players ever, (ii) the runners-up in each position and (iii) my own best XV.

I. Greatest XV Ever (as chosen by 606v2):

1. Ian McLauchlan (Scotland)
2. Sean Fitzpatrick (New Zealand)
3. Jason Leonard (England)
4. Martin Johnson (England)
5. John Eales (Australia)
6. Richard Hill (England)
7. Michael Jones (New Zealand)
8. Zinzan Brooke (New Zealand)

9. Joost van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
10. Daniel Carter (New Zealand)
11. Jonah Lomu (New Zealand)
12. Tim Horan (Australia)
13. Philippe Sella (France)
14. Jason Robinson (England)
15. Christian Cullen (New Zealand)

II. Runner-Up XV (as chosen by 606v2):

1. Os du Randt (South Africa)
2. Keith Wood (Ireland)
3. Carl Hayman (New Zealand)
4. Victor Matfield (South Africa)
5. Willie-John McBride (Ireland)
6. Juan Smith (South Africa)
7. Richie McCaw (New Zealand)
8. Lawrence Dallaglio (England)

9. Gareth Edwards (Wales)
10. Barry John (Wales)
11. David Campese (Australia)
12. Will Greenwood (England)
13. Brian O'Driscoll (Ireland)
14. Rupeni Caucaunibuca (Fiji)
15. JPR Williams (Wales)

III. My Own:

1. Os du Randt (South Africa)
2. Sean Fitzpatrick (New Zealand)
3. Graham Price (Wales)
4. Colin Meads (New Zealand)
5. John Eales (Australia)
6. Michael Jones (New Zealand)
7. Richie McCaw (New Zealand)
8. Zinzan Brooke (New Zealand)

9. Gareth Edwards (Wales)
10. Daniel Carter (New Zealand)
11. David Campese (Australia)
12. Mike Gibson (Ireland)
13. Philippe Sella (France)
14. Jeff Wilson (New Zealand)
15. Christian Cullen (New Zealand)

I think that this is an interesting reflection on the age (I would think 21-35 is normal) and demographic (almost entirely NH, it seems, so thanks to those SH lads that post on here) of these boards.

All thoughts welcome. Feel free to post your own teams, but do us all a favour and please, please adhere to the following:

1. A list of names without context or justification isn’t very useful or particularly interesting.

2. If you’re going to moan about the first two teams above, then please direct your grousing to the world as a whole. It was a completely democratic process – ergo, all of you is to blame. I am merely the conduit for the views of the masses.

3. You may, of course, if you wish, avail us all about how you know better than the players themselves or their own mothers that someone listed is not in their ‘correct’ position. That’s your right. However, pause for a moment to notice that (a) player information was based on a number of sources - I can substantiate with reference to players' own opinions where they felt they were most at home, (b) it is a binary comment which adds nothing constructive to the debate and (c) judging by a whole load of PMs that I received over the course of this exercise, you bored the living hole off everyone the first time that you did it.

Most importantly, thanks to everyone who participated – these things only work if everyone plays well and enthusiastically which by and large, everyone did.

Just looking at these names and these teams is enough to make you smile.

Getting up early to watch the Tri-Nations in the late 90's and early 2000's brings back wonderful memories, recalling the fantastic partnerships like Wilson and Cullen in the NZ back three, Tim Horan and Jason Little for the Wallabies, or the sheer refusal of Joost to accept anything other than total dominance over his opponent - some wonderful players in those teams.

Good to see some NH representation there as well.

Lomu over Campese is ... well it's something but it isn't true (in my opinion of course lest I start a World War with my affront to the Muhammad Ali of rugby)
And Sella over O'Driscoll is also a tad funny...based on clinical performance stats over 13 years of rugby each. But if you play in a media friendly team, you get seen.

I think over the years on 606 and 606v2 I've picked about 15 of the favourite XVs of all time, and I probably pick a different team each go.

It's impossible choosing between players like Sella and BOD, Dallaglio and Brooke and Lomu and Campese. When you watch old footgate of Lomu there are times when he looks unstoppable. Then you watch some outrageous piece of skill from Campese (that Lomu could never have conjured in his dreams) and you think you'll never see the like again.

In my relatively short lifetime I've seen some sublimely gifted players - some better athletes (like Lomu), and others true footballers (like Campese). The best teams have a bit of everything (will there ever be a better back three than Cullen, Wilson and Lomu in that regard?).

I think there are some modern day greats as well.

Israel Dagg is a superb fullback, and in my view will be a real force at the next World Cup (the stage for greatness).

If anyone had gone to see Cardiff Blues v Edinburgh in 2007 they might not have thought Jonah deserved a spot. He was hopeless in a hopeless side that day

Have to be happy with a good number of Kiwis in there. 4 of the first side from the Auckland stronghold, for me the greatest producer of rugby players, just shows how far the area has slipped in recent times.

A Cullen, Lomu and Campese back 3 would be fun but agree many players there bring back a lot of of good memories

mckay1402 wrote:If anyone had gone to see Cardiff Blues v Edinburgh in 2007 they might not have thought Jonah deserved a spot. He was hopeless in a hopeless side that day

That was after his kidney transplant op though. (Also wasn't it a year earlier that he played for the blues?)

I can never understand having a player like Rupeni Caucaunibuca on these and he pops up everytime.

Its literally based on a 12 month window in 2003 when he dazzled us.

For me players like Shane Williams, Doug Howlett, Rory Underwood, Brian Habana are most certainly greater players and have left behind bigger legacies.

HHmmm some interesting ones.

Os Du Rant only making the second team???!! Wow...i confess to not being hugely knowledgable about Ian McLauchlan....but to beat Os...he must have been seriously special.

red_stag wrote:I can never understand having a player like Rupeni Caucaunibuca on these and he pops up everytime.

Its literally based on a 12 month window in 2003 when he dazzled us.

For me players like Shane Williams, Doug Howlett, Rory Underwood, Brian Habana are most certainly greater players and have left behind bigger legacies.

Whilst i agree with you....I think its on sheer rugby ability Stag. The guy was a fat, joint smoking, lazy a$$ed fijian, who when he fancied it....simply showed sublime skills.

I seriously wish he had just got his act together at one point and really showed us just how good he could have been for the long term.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

red_stag wrote:I can never understand having a player like Rupeni Caucaunibuca on these and he pops up everytime.

Its literally based on a 12 month window in 2003 when he dazzled us.

For me players like Shane Williams, Doug Howlett, Rory Underwood, Brian Habana are most certainly greater players and have left behind bigger legacies.

Whilst i agree with you....I think its on sheer rugby ability Stag. The guy was a fat, joint smoking, lazy a$$ed fijian, who when he fancied it....simply showed sublime skills.

I seriously wish he had just got his act together at one point and really showed us just how good he could have been for the long term.

Well thats my point exactly. How can a player who didnt get his act together and failed to be a consistent top level player be considered one of the greatest players of all time.

Having form is fine but a true Great will be able to sustain quality performances year after year.

Did Syd millar get a mention?

he has a very impressive CV as a prop.

red_stag wrote:I can never understand having a player like Rupeni Caucaunibuca on these and he pops up everytime.

Its literally based on a 12 month window in 2003 when he dazzled us.

For me players like Shane Williams, Doug Howlett, Rory Underwood, Brian Habana are most certainly greater players and have left behind bigger legacies.

Yeah its bizarre. Most of the time he was abysmal. I have never rated him.

A guy who never does well enough on these is Doug Howlett. Played for All Blacks, set a record for most ever tries by an All Black and then went north. You'd assume that would be the end of him but went onto win the Pro 12 and the Heineken Cup becoming the captain of Munster Rugby and showing us that he has also got a steely defensive edge to his game as well as try scoring.

Still lags behind Lomu, Williams and Campese for me but is right up there.

red_stag wrote:A guy who never does well enough on these is Doug Howlett. Played for All Blacks, set a record for most ever tries by an All Black and then went north. You'd assume that would be the end of him but went onto win the Pro 12 and the Heineken Cup becoming the captain of Munster Rugby and showing us that he has also got a steely defensive edge to his game as well as try scoring.

Still lags behind Lomu, Williams and Campese for me but is right up there.

+1..and a bit!

His All Black try scoring record still stands (to my knowledge at least???) and he seems to have been just forgotten by his countrymen. Strange one....

I know this is all based on opinion but when you have Jason Robinson starting it seriously undermines the team, also Joost over Edwards.

I'd probably have the same team as George, that back row is soo tasty. Possibly Lomu for Wilson.

Also on a different note, was Shane Williams all he's made out to be. I mean I loved and he did have some great seasons and was so fun to watch, but how many good seasons did he actually have?

Doug Howlett was a great winger for NZ, no ones denying that. Its just there are better AB wingers and as a rule, Lomu, JK and probably Wilson usually rate up there as our best, more for the way they played rather than the records they broke. Had Howlett done the same for another country I'd say he'd be a regular on these lists. The biggest crime was not playing him vs rance in 2007 when he was hot.

Howlett was one of many good AB wingers- Roko and Sivi doing similar things. Howlett played in a period early to mid 00's when the Henry try scoring factoring was on a roll and Howlett made the most of it. Aggression and pace, without the necessary x factor to put him to the top rung is why he isnt there.

Rupeni gets there for his club form as his Fiji exploits are few. That says a lot for the shear talent of the guy. No one else is there forc lub form alone.He may have been a oncer in 2003 in the NH but he was a stunner for the 2 or 3 years with the Auckland Blues. Before he went to the NH he was quoted as saying he could beat any defence with the ball in hand from the 25. And at the time he could, and did.

When putting this thing together, I think I concluded that a truly great player had to have satisfied a number of the following criteria:

(a) have longevity as an international player (Sella, Leonard, O'Driscoll, Price, Gibson),

(b) be iconic or otherwise important in developing the success and popularity of the sport in their country (Porta, Going, Nepia, Meads, Dominguez, Roncero, Pichot),

(c) have redefined the possible and therefore expected skillset for the position (Du Preez, Jones, Edwards, Carter, Brooke, McLauchlan, Meredith),

(d) have won a World Cup (or two in the case of Oz and a handful of Australians),

(e) have broken individual records for their position (Howlett, Lomu, Carter, McCaw),

(f) have some quality which makes them able to change a game by themselves (Cullen, Campese, Caucau, Blanco, Edwards, Kirwan) and/or

(g) been an inspirational leader of men (Eales, Johnson, Fitzpatrick, McBride).

This is the standard, isn't it?

Im shocked that Robinson is in over campese and shane Williams in one of the teams im totally mind blown

George Carlin wrote:When putting this thing together, I think I concluded that a truly great player had to have satisfied a number of the following criteria - (a) have longevity as an international player (Sella, Leonard, Price, Gibson), (b) be iconic or otherwise important in developing the success and popularity of the sport in their country (Porta, Going, Nepia, Meads, Dominguez, Roncero, Pichot), (c) have redefined the possible and therefore expected skillset for the position (Du Preez, Jones, Edwards, Carter, Brooke), (d) have won a World Cup (or two in the case of Oz and a handful of Australians), (e) have broken individual records for their position (Howlett, Lomu, Carter), (f) have some quality which makes them able to change a game by themselves (Cullen, Campese, Caucau, Blanco) and/or (g) been an inspirational leader of men (Eales, Johnson, Fitzpatrick, McBride).

This is the standard, isn't it?

And there's O'Driscoll's roles - especially the last highlighted one New Zealand is New Zealand, Australia is Australia, France is France. O'Driscoll has dragged more ordinary players through games with Ireland than any of the others you've mentioned and virtually won the 2009 GrandSlam on his own, so forceful was his presence that year (top try scorer too to prove it)..and that was only one of his 14 seasons.

But he ain't in the team...so no, you're wrong George.

Best all time

gents the best player of all time is not even in the greatest team - Gareth Edwards...would still be superb today

QED the whole process is FECKED

oh and who thought Cullen was better than Blanco!

Me!

and me.

And Latham's better than both!!

** just kidding, both are very good players **

I'd rate Cullens a better attacker than Latho but Latho better at defending, blanco can be amazing in attack but at times goes missing, whereas Latho I feel is more consistant defending full back, with very good positional sense. I Would also rate Monty as an excellent positional defender.

Agreed OzT - to be fair, Latham made the full back's shortlist of 3.

Looking at the 10 shirt and Dan Carter. This is interesting for me has i think it is so close Between Dan Carter, Johnny Wilkinson, and Andrew Mertens.

It is hard to choose who the best is. Although i do agree that right now Dan Carter is the best by far.

Interestingly Justin Marshall yesterday was saying the best 10 in NZ right now is Aaron Cruden.

At the end of the day though who's playing the best rugby in March counts for nothing. It's who's playing well at the business end of the comp and in test matches which is important.

And how did Gareth miss out on the scrum half jersey?

nganboy wrote:Interestingly Justin Marshall yesterday was saying the best 10 in NZ right now is Aaron Cruden.

I was going to raise this ngan...I'd go as far as saying Carter and Cruden and 1 and 2 in world rugby. Cruden would get into any of the top 10 sides at the moment in terms of current form...except ours...

Part of the reason for this the 10's in world rugby are in a bit of disarray at the mo. Cooper is struggling and Barnes is injured. Goosens out leaving Steyn or Jantjies, Lambie?

The NH 10's are all over the place, Farrell steady but none standing out...Italy..?

Perenara is certainly going to push Smith for the 9 as well. His physicality and presence is immense. Kerr B is not far behind them either. Our 9's and 10's sure are in good shape.

Cruden was magic last weekend, cruising around the park with ease. Sure it was a lesser foe but the width of his game is getting stronger.

I am surprised Earl Rose didn't make the Alltime Best Team.

Biltong - I've already apologised about Os. With your subtle marketing campaign, we did everything that we could.

I am pulling your leg mate, do you know who Rose is?

No, but is he the same manner of ligind as Brendan 'the Chainsaw' Laney?

He ain't very good, to put it mildly.

Biltong wrote:I am surprised Earl Rose didn't make the Alltime Best Team.

He must have been close though!

Bathman_in_London wrote:

Biltong wrote:I am surprised Earl Rose didn't make the Alltime Best Team.

He must have been close though!

if there were more non saffers, he would have made it for sure, I reckon only PDV would vote for him from our side.

Whilst I know its all been said and done, the first team has 1 South African in them... the country with the great amateur (pre 1996) record in test history and the best RWC record to date.

I accept this is a European dominated forum so much of the opinions will come with NH rugby exposure.

Additionally, near all are from the last 17 years (pro era) also.

Perhaps it would be better to say that the list should be the best pro players of all time??? To say the last 17 years have contained near all the best players in 100+ years of rugby history is simply naive.

FA that is why I threw Earl Rose's name innto the hat, he was professional

Well , ok, he had a clntract, to say he was pro is taking it a step too far.

I heard he turned down an offer from Toulon a few years ago.

Should have taken it

mate it wasn't a rugby contract....something about packing shopping in the local checkers, probably thought it was too much of a step up.

He was a professional?

I thought he just turned up with a pair of boots and got a game after locking someone in the locker room so the team was 1 man short!

haha

Jokes aside I actually thought he was a good player, a little too raw mind.

He was a stand out junior but just never made his mark in pro rugby... properly managed I think he could have been a very decent player.
A guy I would compare him to is Juan De Jongh... similar styles... a lot was however invested in De Jongh... he went through the WP academy and at Maties before going pro.

Taylorman wrote:

nganboy wrote:Interestingly Justin Marshall yesterday was saying the best 10 in NZ right now is Aaron Cruden.

I was going to raise this ngan...I'd go as far as saying Carter and Cruden and 1 and 2 in world rugby. Cruden would get into any of the top 10 sides at the moment in terms of current form...except ours...

Part of the reason for this the 10's in world rugby are in a bit of disarray at the mo. Cooper is struggling and Barnes is injured. Goosens out leaving Steyn or Jantjies, Lambie?

The NH 10's are all over the place, Farrell steady but none standing out...Italy..?

Sexton is hardly all over the place. He is just injured. He would give anyone bar Carter a run for his money with skill sets.

Have to agree GunsGerms

Sexton is a decent player but last year prior to injury his kicking was off the chart.... I think the best of all kickers in 2012... something close to 93% for last season. Thats immense.

fa0019 wrote:Have to agree GunsGerms

Sexton is a decent player but last year prior to injury his kicking was off the chart.... I think the best of all kickers in 2012... something close to 93% for last season. Thats immense.

Didnt know it was that good!!!

GunsGerms wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

nganboy wrote:Interestingly Justin Marshall yesterday was saying the best 10 in NZ right now is Aaron Cruden.

I was going to raise this ngan...I'd go as far as saying Carter and Cruden and 1 and 2 in world rugby. Cruden would get into any of the top 10 sides at the moment in terms of current form...except ours...

Part of the reason for this the 10's in world rugby are in a bit of disarray at the mo. Cooper is struggling and Barnes is injured. Goosens out leaving Steyn or Jantjies, Lambie?

The NH 10's are all over the place, Farrell steady but none standing out...Italy..?

Sexton is hardly all over the place. He is just injured. He would give anyone bar Carter a run for his money with skill sets.

Exactly what I meant by all over the place...he's injured- thats one of those 'places'.

Point with Cruden is, unlike Sexton, he IS giving Carter a run for his money, considered better by some at the moment. Have seen enough of Sexton to know that he isnt in Crudens league, by a long shot.

Taylorman wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

nganboy wrote:Interestingly Justin Marshall yesterday was saying the best 10 in NZ right now is Aaron Cruden.

I was going to raise this ngan...I'd go as far as saying Carter and Cruden and 1 and 2 in world rugby. Cruden would get into any of the top 10 sides at the moment in terms of current form...except ours...

Part of the reason for this the 10's in world rugby are in a bit of disarray at the mo. Cooper is struggling and Barnes is injured. Goosens out leaving Steyn or Jantjies, Lambie?

The NH 10's are all over the place, Farrell steady but none standing out...Italy..?

Sexton is hardly all over the place. He is just injured. He would give anyone bar Carter a run for his money with skill sets.

Exactly what I meant by all over the place...he's injured- thats one of those 'places'.

Point with Cruden is, unlike Sexton, he IS giving Carter a run for his money, considered better by some at the moment. Have seen enough of Sexton to know that he isnt in Crudens league, by a long shot.

Farrell steady? At what? You New Zealanders can sometimes be a tunnel vision lot..as in All Blacks first and foremost (obvious one that) Southern Hemisphere next (another kinda obvious one but less so. Australia and South Africa manage to get picked off by...well that's the next bunch that the New Zealanders have most respect for - the English.)

They don't even have to watch NH rugby in any given year and most of them will include England in the best of the rest categories automatically. It so happens England this time round are actually pretty good (in a lowly NH way of course) but Farrell steady? A guy who kicks what's in front of him playing in a team who like to score that way? Yeah, that's the full gamut of skills there for a 10.
He's not in Sexton's league yet. Don't be so structured in your ideas about what's good and what side they should naturally come from, Taylorman.

Well sorry if I disagree fly but Farrell was one of the main reasons England lost this title.

English fans were gushing with admiration for the man from the start of the 6N when he was oh so beautifully pushing the ball through the posts.

What they didnt seem to 'pick up' was in the last 4 matches they were not scoring tries. The modern 10 is NOT first and foremost a kicker, he is the leader of the direction of play for the entire side. His complete failure to set the backs into attacking mode effectively enough even against the traditionally lower ranked sides was abysmal.

I said consistently on these boards that the winner of this tournament will have to score tries and THAT was why Wales won.

If a NZ 10 had played like Farrell he wouldnt have lasted the first game or so. England beat NZ through straight hard running and scoring tries. Since then theyve completely forgotten how to do that.

Wales, to their credit, also got tries by going direct, finally.

For most of he tournament all six sides went side to side so often I was getting sea sick. Looking for gaps that never happened, simply because sides would wait until they straightened, or went back the other way.

Finding space and time is about running direct. It is more valuable going forward. A gap found going sideways is worthless.

And you call me structured? The NH game is so structured is squeezing the life out of itself. If anything this 6N has illustrated why none are in the top 3.

Perfectly.