Who do SANZAR fans want their teams to meet in the final from NH?

With a strong possibility of a NH v SH RWC, it would be nice to know who our Southern cousins would want facing their team if they're lucky enough to make the final. No need to be coy about this one and go all "shucks, let's take it one game at a time, etc, etc." Let's assume your team is in the final come end of October. So who do you - as a SH fan - want your team - NZ, SA, or Australia - to meet in the final if it's an NH team? And who's most likely in your view?

State your preferences and why. One of the bookies has the following finalists in order of odds. No odds were provided for Italy.

England v NZ 3/1
Fra v NZ 10/3
Irl v NZ 9/2
Wal v NZ 15/2
Sco v NZ 225/1

Eng v Aus 16/1
Irl v Aus 17/1
Fra v Aus 17/1
Wal v Aus 30/1

Eng v SA 22/1
Irl v SA 25/1
Fra v SA 25/1
Wal v SA 40/1

For the record, they still have odds on all-SH final.
Aus v NZ is 20/1
Aus v SA 25/1
NZ v SA 35/1

I'd go for England on both questions. I love when we play big games against them in any sport, and still think the other 6Ns teams will find it difficult to knock them out of this tournament.

England, most definitely England.
None of the others have shown anything that could be in any way interpreted as showing that they even want to play in a final...

Old Corinthians?

From the North side?
Well it should be Wales V Ireland and England V France.

England won't be scared of any of the Tri Nations side, France can beat anyone when they click. Ireland are experienced and hard to break down.

I think ideally they would want to play Wales because they have issues against Tri Nations sides and can't beat them, even when on top for most of the game.

I am not worried about that at all at this stage, we have one hell of a tough run to win this bloody thing now.

We have to beat Samoa, then Australia, then All Blacks and then who ever comes through on that side.

Long way off, and we have to get there first.

aucklandlaurie wrote: England, most definitely England.
None of the others have shown anything that could be in any way interpreted as showing that they even want to play in a final...

What on earth are you on about....?

The only SH team England have played is Argentina and they struggled to beat them. Ireland beat Australia and Wales narrowly lost to SA after dominating them the entire match.

Well said Maesteg. Ireland and Wales have shown a lot more than England so far. Saying that, England have the habit of just doing enough. If England don't show an improvement for their next match it's not beyond the realms of possibility that if Scotland hold on against Argentina they could beat England and top the group. That would really put the cat among the pigeons. New Zealand v England and South Africa v Australia in the quarters would not please any of those four sides.

England are a bit erratic to say the least, but they have a massive and powerful pack, they can strangle any team, especially in the rain of New Zealand, most teams would want to avoid that.

Hmmm, most want to meet in final, in order:
Scotland (they'd need to upset England next week)
Wales/England
Ireland
France ('ware the wounded cockeril).

And in order of most likely to make the final:
Ireland
France
England
Wales
Scotland

AlynDavies wrote:England are a bit erratic to say the least, but they have a massive and powerful pack, they can strangle any team, especially in the rain of New Zealand, most teams would want to avoid that.

England arent erratic, they are very consistent. Their results vary on whether their opposition is any good or not.

I really don´t mind. I´d be quite happy to be in the final and quite happy to play any team. kia kaha

maestegmafia wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: England, most definitely England.
None of the others have shown anything that could be in any way interpreted as showing that they even want to play in a final...

What on earth are you on about....?

The only SH team England have played is Argentina and they struggled to beat them. Ireland beat Australia and Wales narrowly lost to SA after dominating them the entire match.

Some SH fans are completely ignorant of NH rugby. Indeed the NZ and Oz media are so obsessed with England that very little else registers on some SH fans radars.

Auckland laurie has never heard of Leinster for example.

The reality is at the moment there is nothing between Ireland, Wales and England. France are marginally the best team in the NH. History would suggest that France will lose to Eng and Wales to Ireland. Then Ireland to beat England. However, I wouldn't bet against any of these teams.

How are France the best team in the NH? You say SH fans don´t know anything about NH rugby. How do you get France are marginally on top with their 6N and current form?

I agree there is nothing much in it. Some teams have the wood over others but England as 6N champs surely deserve the title of best in the NH.

They won on goal difference over France. France have better players a better squad and better recent record than England in nearly every way bar their head to head. This is why I think France are better. England do have a better manager and are attracting a lot of hype for some reason. They are not nearly as good as some pundits think though.

...Also Australia won the Tri nations. Does that mean they are better than NZ? Id imagine you would say it doesn't.

I always fall for these threads, a Northern Hemisphere poster poses a question asking the Southern hemisphere posters to reply to it, When we play the silly game and reply we get abused for not knowing what we are talking about....

I originally said England, but after watching Argentina/Scotland can I now change my preference to Scotland, the most technically inept display of forward play from a tier 1 team.

Doesn't matter who we want to meet.

Ireland has the wood on Wales and England.

England has the wood over France

France has the wood over Ireland.

If England meet france they should win

If Ireland meet Wales they should win.

If England and Irland meet in the semi, then Ireland should win.

But then after looking at all that, Ireland wasn't supposed to beat Australia, so all bets are off and anyone of the NH can go through and the same applies fro the SH.

aucklandlaurie wrote: I always fall for these threads, a Northern Hemisphere poster poses a question asking the Southern hemisphere posters to reply to it, When we play the silly game and reply we get abused for not knowing what we are talking about....

I originally said England, but after watching Argentina/Scotland can I now change my preference to Scotland, the most technically inept display of forward play from a tier 1 team.

That wasnt the issue laurie - you made a cretinous statement saying none of the NH teams even wanted to make a final apart from England, which going by the results so far is a stupid thing to say, then again I noticed to pretty damn stupid posts from you leading up to the Ireland Australia game as well.

Artful dodger
yes, I did say that england was the only NH team that looked like they even want to play in a final.But can i change my vote ? if Wales keep improvoing the way that they have been I would like to include them as well....

If OZ actually manage to get past SA and ABs (they are the only side to have been both of these sides this year and last year), I don't they will care who they play. Would probably prefer to avoid England the most

No way are France the best NH team. What recent results are you referring to?

I would rate England as the best side in NH as a general comment, though obviously form varies from season to season and within seasons. They have won a world cup and made it to the final as well. France can be good, but are too inconsistent. Right now, there might not be a lot of difference between England, Wales and Ireland.

There isn't a lot of difference, no. However, I'd wager that most tri-nations fans would rather avoid England out of all NH teams in getting to the final, but would prefer to play them out of all NH teams IN the final.

maestegmafia wrote:
England arent erratic, they are very consistent. Their results vary on whether their opposition is any good or not.

Yeah, England's performance against Australia last year was identical to the one against Wales in Cardiff in the WC warm-ups. I guess Wales are just better than Australia

EnglishReign wrote:No way are France the best NH team. What recent results are you referring to?

It's a bit of a no brainer but I'll explain. Over the last ten years France have won as many or more 6 nations titles than the rest of the NH put together. They have won in NZ with a second string team and they have beaten SA. They have also knocked NZ out of two World cups. In fact before Saturday NZ hadn't beaten France in the WC since 1987 when they played out the final. If France had Galthie, Noves or anyother top French coach in place they would be a certainty for the final because they have man for man a much better squad than Ire, Eng and Wal.

leinsterbaby wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:No way are France the best NH team. What recent results are you referring to?

It's a bit of a no brainer but I'll explain. Over the last ten years France have won as many or more 6 nations titles than the rest of the NH put together. They have won in NZ with a second string team and they have beaten SA. They have also knocked NZ out of two World cups. In fact before Saturday NZ hadn't beaten France in the WC since 1987 when they played out the final. If France had Galthie, Noves or anyother top French coach in place they would be a certainty for the final because they have man for man a much better squad than Ire, Eng and Wal.

All great stuff but not exactly any indiction of France's recent form?

Surely England's form over the past 15 months puts them ahead of France?

Recent form means just that in my book, Wales are better than England and Samoa because we recently beat them but we are not as good as South Africa.

Cymroglan wrote:Recent form means just that in my book Wales are better than England and Samoa because we recently beat them but we are not as good as South Africa.

maybe we'll find out if that's true in the semi final?

NZ beat France for 3rd place in a World Cup in 99.

France have shown that they can beat anybody on their day. What they have failed to have shown is a capacity to beat teams regularly. England has a much better record in World Cups than England. You´re talking about potential leinster. France got hammered at home by Australia, never fired in the 6N but somehow got very close to winning it, have been patchy at best in their pool.

Ireland and Wales have lifted their performance in this World Cup overcoming some patchy form. England look sluggish but they are very adept at peaking at the right time. France look flaky but are capable of winning against anybody if they get their minds right. But to say they are marginally better because of their history and record against the SH nations does not make them the premier team in the NH at the moment. Just a team you need to be very wary of because you never quite know what team you´re going to face, whereas teams like Ireland, England and less so Wales have more consistency in their game plan.

Yes France's recent form hasn't been great but has Englands? They really struggled against a depleted Argentina and didn't look great against Georgia. Is this the form that makes them the best in the NH?

Would they have done as well against SA as Wales did they way they are playing? Would they have beaten Australia? Possibly but they haven't really been that impressive nor were they in the 6 nations in any match bar Italy as they grinded out wins v France, Wales and Scotland and got smashed by Ireland. Let's not get carried away.

I didn't realise recent meant going back 10 years! France have only won one more 6 nations tournament than England in the last 10 anyway. Also, England have made two world cup finals in that time, both times knocking France out and beating Australia along the way.

England have also had a far superior year compared with France, since MJ has settled down as manager. You think France have a better squad, but I disagree and think England also have greater strength in depth. On current form, I'd say England, Ireland and Wales were all better than France.

I think that all the NH sides that go into the quarter finals can make a good argument for going through to the final. None of them have shown any consistent good form in 2011 but they can all argue their case for being able to beat the others.

It makes it an exciting knockout situation with all the teams capable of beating each other. I'm English, so I'm naturally biased towards them, but I fancy our chances against France and then Ireland or Wales. However i don't think we'd have much chance against either NZ or SA in the final.

Not in a million years do England have better depth than France. Only position England have better options is at OH.

leinsterbaby wrote:Not in a million years do England have better depth than France. Only position England have better options is at OH.

France have lots of strength in depth but are still unsure of their best 15. England's starting line up is pretty settled now and that gives them an advantage.

England´s pool is named the pool of death by some but so far it has been the pool of dearth for me.

That said, you get no prizes for the amount of points you score in the pool games. Let´s see how England fare against France in the quarters. There´s a game where they´ll have to lift their performance, which is what Ireland and to a lesser extent Wales did with their tough pool matches.

I wouldn´t call it a far superior year either Englishreign. England did what they needed to do in the 6N until their lacklustre effort against Ireland. Since then, they haven´t done anything of note and the loss in form of Flood has seen the backline play suffer a bit.

I agree it´s very tight in the NH and that´s a good thing. That´s what makes these quarter finals so exciting: Ireland vs Wales, England vs France and Australia vs SA in particular are going to be very close affairs. Australia and England have better recent results against SA and England but that is not to say the others are not capable of beating each other. Wales beat Ireland in this year´s 6N but it´s too close to call if both bring their A game.

For that reason, I don´t care who we would face in the final if we get there. Each bring their own strengths but as England have the best record in World Cups, maybe it´s sweeter to beat them. But like I said, I don´t care. I just hope we have some great rugby to watch over the knockout games instead of one-sided contests.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:England´s pool is named the pool of death by some but so far it has been the pool of dearth for me.

That said, you get no prizes for the amount of points you score in the pool games. Let´s see how England fare against France in the quarters. There´s a game where they´ll have to lift their performance, which is what Ireland and to a lesser extent Wales did with their tough pool matches.

I wouldn´t call it a far superior year either Englishreign. England did what they needed to do in the 6N until their lacklustre effort against Ireland. Since then, they haven´t done anything of note and the loss in form of Flood has seen the backline play suffer a bit.

I agree it´s very tight in the NH and that´s a good thing. That´s what makes these quarter finals so exciting: Ireland vs Wales, England vs France and Australia vs SA in particular are going to be very close affairs. Australia and England have better recent results against SA and England but that is not to say the others are not capable of beating each other. Wales beat Ireland in this year´s 6N but it´s too close to call if both bring their A game.

For that reason, I don´t care who we would face in the final if we get there. Each bring their own strengths but as England have the best record in World Cups, maybe it´s sweeter to beat them. But like I said, I don´t care. I just hope we have some great rugby to watch over the knockout games instead of one-sided contests.

Fair comments, agree with them. Maybe not "far superior" but I only base my comment on facts and recent results, not speculation and bias.

When they all play to maximum potential France and Ireland are both better than England. But neither hit maximum potential often enough.

Not too sure about that. It seems to me your half back positions are up for grabs. There are possibly questions about the midfield and 7 jerseys.

England have played more or less the same team in all three games so far but this may just come back to bite them by the quarters. Don't print any teeshirts yet.

Still whoever makes it to the final I'll be cheering them all the way including England.

maestegmafia wrote:England arent erratic, they are very consistent. Their results vary on whether their opposition is any good or not.

Ok so Wales lose to England, but beat Ireland, but Ireland stuff England.

England seems to have more consistency against other sides though. How often do Ireland get beaten by Scotland, France lost to Italy in this year´s 6N. As for Ireland vs France, you´d say Ireland struggle to beat them consistently.

What has pleased me with this year´s world cup is that teams like Wales and Ireland have stepped up their performance. Wales held strong against Samoa and Ireland delivered one of their proudest results. What remains to be seen is who can be consistent now and bring the same level of performance to the coming games. I think there are teams like England who are more capable of consistency mixed with some teams who are capable of raising their game way beyond their usual performance. It´s going to be compelling viewing who can string the best set of performances together.

Kiwireddevil wrote:When they all play to maximum potential France and Ireland are both better than England. But neither hit maximum potential often enough.

Not in tournaments though, it's horses for courses and England are way out in front in tournament football.

Kiwireddevil wrote:When they all play to maximum potential France and Ireland are both better than England. But neither hit maximum potential often enough.

oooooh.... if England's maximum potential was seen vs Australia last November then I might disagree with this

There is the circle of comparison that never seems to end.

a beat b who beat c who beat d.

None of that means anything.


England is most likely to meet France

Wales to meet Ireland.

Going on the last few test matches between these countries Ireland and england should come through and face each other in the semi.

Ireland based on previous recent history should win.

Based on the draw Ireland in my opinion should make the final.

It is irrelevant going in a circle of who's beaten who and back again.

My friend Jenny said that her friend John said that she heard Alex speaking to Jane and that she thought she overheard Chris saying that he had thought he had heard Bruce say that Jess was a tart.

I don´t know. Jess seems like a lovely girl to me.

Nah, she's definitely a tart mate.

Wales beat Ireland the last time the two sides met so recent history dictates that Wales are the better side.
You cant use recent history in your argument if you then ignore the last encounter.

Kia, pretty much sums up what I thought would be the case. Ireland and Wales have had one big performance each, England haven't done enough yet to show what threat they really pose, France are all over the place and it's anybody's guess what they'll bring to the party. As things stand I doubt the SH 3 will be giving any thought to the possible final and won't care anyway. Just as an aside, Argentina may have serious injury concerns after today's outing which may have a major impact on their tournament.