Malaysian GP Thread Containing Practice/Qualifying/Race Spoilers

[Fernando]

First topic message reminder :



Following Kimi Raikkonen’s victory at the season-opening Australian Grand Prix, the 2013 Formula One championship fires up again this weekend as the series prepares for round two, the Malaysian Grand Prix.

And fiery is perhaps the appropriate adjective for this race. High temperatures are the order of the day at Sepang Circuit and this race is a true test of man and machine.

For the drivers there’s the struggle to cope with soaring in-car temperatures and the battle to stay hydrated throughout the 56-lap long race. For the machinery this weekend is about dealing with tough conditions for engines and tyres. The heat and Sepang’s abrasive track surface makes tyre wear a major consideration, while a number of high-speed corners places the tyres under severe lateral loads. Keeping rubber ‘alive’ here is a difficult task.

In terms of engines, the heat and the fact that a significant part of the lap here is run at full throttle means powerplants are heavily stressed. Maximising cooling is imperative and teams often open supplementary cooling vents in bodywork to facilitate this.

And then there’s the rain. Heavy downpours are a frequent occurrence and the possibility of torrential rain adds an extra air of unpredictability to the season’s second race.

The 2012 race was a case in point. The race started wet and as the rain intensified running was suspended on lap nine. When the action resumed it was Fernando Alonso who took the lead. In a dramatic final third, the Ferrari driver was chased to the chequered flag by Sergio Perez. The Mexican was unable to pass, but claimed his first podium finish with second place, ahead of Lewis Hamilton.

Punishing conditions, an exciting circuit layout and unpredictable weather conditions mean a grand prix at Sepang is rarely dull and this weekend should be no exception.
Malaysian Grand Prix Data


Circuit: Sepang
Length of lap: 5.543 km
Lap record: 1:34.223 (Juan-Pablo Montoya, Williams-BMW, 2004)
Total number of race laps: 56
Total race distance: 310.408km
Pitlane speed limits: 60km/h during practice and qualifying; 100km/h during race
DRS Zones: The DRS sectors will be between turns 15 and 1 (pit straight, as last year) and then between turns 14 and 15 (back straight). There will be a detection point for each DRS sector.

Malaysian Grand Prix Facts


This will be the 15th running of the Malaysian Grand Prix. The race made its Formula One calendar debut on October 17th, 1999.
In the first two years of its existence the race was staged at the end of the season. However, in 2001 it moved to March and had held an early-season slot ever since.
In the 14 events to date, the driver in pole position has gone on to win the race on seven occasions. The first winner from pole was Michael Schumacher in 2000 and the most recent Sebastian Vettel in 2011.
Last year’s winner Fernando Alonso started the race from eighth on the grid, the furthest back a winner has started in the history of the race. Kimi Raikkonen won the 2003 event from seventh position.
Ferrari is the most successful constructor at the Malaysian GP with six wins. Eddie Irvine won the inaugural event for the Scuderia, Michael Schumacher won the next three grands prix at Sepang, Raikkonen was victorious in 2008 and Alonso won last year.
Alonso has won the Malaysian Grand Prix with three different teams – Renault in 2005, McLaren in 2007 and Ferrari last year.
Of the drivers racing this weekend McLaren’s Jenson Button has the most Sepang starts. The Briton has raced 13 Malaysian Grands Prix and only missed out on the 1999 event as he was busy racing in F3 that year.
Sergio Perez’s second place last year for Sauber was the first time a Mexican driver had appeared on the podium since Pedro Rodriguez finished second in the 1971 Dutch Grand Prix for BRM – 19 years before Perez was born.
While this will be the first Malaysian Grand Prix for new boys Valtteri Bottas, Jules Bianchi, Max Chilton Giedo van der Garde and Esteban Gutierrez, only Bianchi has never appeared on the Sepang track before. Bottas made his Formula One weekend debut here last year in a Friday practice session for Williams. Sauber’s Gutierrez raced here for ART Lotus in GP2 last season, finishing seventh in the feature race and second in the sprint race. Caterham’s Van der Garde first raced here in GP2 Asia in 2009 with iSport and last year returned with Caterham Racing to finish fourth in the sprint race and Marussia’s Chilton finished third in last year’s GP2 feature race.
The 2012 GP was a good race for one of last year’s rookies. Toro Rosso’s Jean-Eric Vergne took his first Formula One championship points with an eighth-place finish.
This will be Fernando Alonso’s 200th grand prix. He made his debut at the 2001 Australian Grand Prix for Minardi and since then has scored 30 wins, 22 pole positions, 57 other podium finishes and, of course, two Formula One Drivers’ Championship titles, in 2005 and 2006, both for Renault.
Pirelli is bringing its Hard and Medium compounds to this race.

Source: RaceDepartment.com
Weather Forecast: http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/1735161?day=2
All 3 days are Thundery Showers mixed in with heavy rain

[mystiroakey]

When your the Boss and someone takes the mic out of you It hurts..

Simples. Horner told him he was being silly etc and he just didnt give a monkies.

If I was horner I would get rid of both of them tbh.. But that is just my Ego i suppose..

[bogbrush]

Perhaps the reaction to Vettel doing it there is a reason? Webber was seen by fans as getting the rough end of the stick by Red Bull as it is clear to all Vettel has always been the blue-eyed boy getting preferential treatment so when Webber did it (allegedly) he was seen as growing a pair of balls and hitting back against suppression. With Vettel it was clearly different as can be assessed by Christian Horner being unable to defend his darling Vettel.

Hilarious backtracking Craig. It isn't often an argument gets ripped up this well on a forum, what a great post earlier by liverbnz.

This is all more of the same Vettel hating. I think it's just a parochial British thing though, sore about Lewis being pushed past (not that he needs any defending of ourse, he can make his own case eloquently on the track).

[mystiroakey]

Bogbrush.. If hamilton did this - I would expect 1000 hate comments on this British site all ready.. so.....................

[bogbrush]

Bogbrush.. If hamilton did this - I would expect 1000 hate comments on this British site all ready.. so.....................

From another team of haters no doubt. I don't disagree with you, it's silly. Vettel was wrong, the idea of team orders on this instance were wrong but once given that's that. However, the hysterical reaction of some, with their 'morality' is an overreaction.

Still no details on when Mark has given Seb points, and a lame defence of the Webber overtaking efforts against orders.

Anyway, at least we won't hear any more nonsense about how Vettel can't pass

[CaledonianCraig]

You have a fixation about Hamilton. Who gives a stuff about him? Now if people want to have a love-in with a driver with no respect for team-mates and team principal and that team's principles then go ahead. Vettel sullened his copybook yesterday and did his PR no favours.

Now in racing terms Vettel runs Red Bull so what can Webber do about it? He should walk in my opinion as it is clear he will never get a fair crack of the whip there whilst Vettel demands free running of the team.

[bogbrush]

You have a fixation about Hamilton. Who gives a stuff about him? Now if people want to have a love-in with a driver with no respect for team-mates and team principal and that team's principles then go ahead. Vettel sullened his copybook yesterday and did his PR no favours.

Now in racing terms Vettel runs Red Bull so what can Webber do about it? He should walk in my opinion as it is clear he will never get a fair crack of the whip there whilst Vettel demands free running of the team.

Did you say the same when Webber disobeyed orders to try to pass Vettel?

[mystiroakey]

just playing devils advocate here- but was vettels engine turned down when webber tried..

[GSC]

Does that really matter though. Both were told not to overtake and maintain to the end of the race.

[mystiroakey]

Well we can forget team orders for a second and put it down to whats fair racing?

If both are and can push to the max- its surely fair game to race. If one has got toned down equipment is it fair?

[bogbrush]

just playing devils advocate here- but was vettels engine turned down when webber tried..

Does that matter? Team orders are team orders, and we know now how heinously immoral it is to disobey them. it doesn't matter about the engines, that's all part of the team order thing. Nobody is saying Vettel was right on this.

Webber was pitted in Brazil for a reason - the team didn't trust him to get out of the way for Vettel. He's playing the victim well in this case but they aren't fond of each other.

As others have said, Senna would have done this and been lauded for it. Not seen Seb drive maliciously into anyone yet, I guess that's nicer than passing them.

[mystiroakey]

I said senna would have done this. That was my point dude

And yes in a way it does matter alot. Because if we ignore team orders . Its about fair real moral wins.. If one engine is turned down - immaterial of team orders vettel cant claim any moral victory- If both were turned down then he at least could claim a real win

[liverbnz]

https://www.606v2.com/t9084-webber-says-he-ignored-orders

Here's a thread on it and it's laughable the double standards being applied in here by some people. Vettel was in the wrong, there's no doubt, but the agenda against him on here is a bit of a joke - and I don't even like the guy myself.

Some people really don't have a clue. Where at Silverstone both cars were going full at it and both capable of racing one another, yesterday Mark Webber was told to turn his engine down by his team and as a result was completely defenseless to any attack that Vettel made. It wasn't just against team orders, it was cowardly. You could hear the petulance of Vettel's radio messages 'Mark is too slow, let me past'. 3 world titles and he thinks he is now bigger than the team well sorry seb no you are not.

You're right they don't have a clue - both were told to coast to the end of that British GP, same as yesterday. There's no difference between the events except the roles are reversed and Mark didn't manage the overtake.

[bogbrush]

I said senna would have done this. That was my point dude

And yes in a way it does matter alot. Because if we ignore team orders . Its about fair real moral wins.. If one engine is turned down - immaterial of team orders vettel cant claim any moral victory- If both were turned down then he at least could claim a real win

You did, and you are right.

Liverbnz states they were told to coast at Silverstone too. Nobody's saying Seb was in the right, just that Marks done the same. The drivers aren't different, the only huge difference is the reaction of fans, who will jump on anything to attack Vettel for, with Andrew Benson always in the front of the queue with his Alonso obsession.

[bogbrush]

An interesting part of that Silverstone article is here;

Vettel said he could understand why the team wanted them to avoid racing each other, but also that he was happy to battle.

"I try to stay ahead, nothing wrong with that," he said. "If you have the cars quite isolated in second and third, with the first guy away and the fourth guy pretty far away, from the team's point of view there is no point racing and doing something stupid.

"The difference between second and third is not massive but we naturally try to race. I tried to hold position. I was struggling, Mark was faster and then there was the chequered flag."

Vettel added that he could not understand why a furore was developing over the issue in the press conference.

"I finished second..." he responded when asked if the result was a 'sham'.

"As I said earlier, Mark tried to pass me, I could stay ahead. Clearly you could see he is quicker. If I would not be racing then I would just wave him past, so surely the last thing you want is to do something bad to the team?

"If it was the other way around, there is no point - of course I would like to overtake Mark at that stage, so no point trying to do something stupid. I don't see why there is such a fuss.

"I think we were racing. It was not a scheduled 'I move right, he moves right, I brake here, he brakes there...' He tried to race me as hard as he could, he didn't find a way past.

To me, at this stage, it s quite amusing.

Very fair, very consistent. The guys a racer not a whiner.

[dyrewolfe]

We dont buy into F1 for a race that lasts 40 laps.

Precisely. What I'm saying is there shoudn't even be any team orders at this stage - and had there not been then none of this would have happened. The drivers should have been free to race to the flag. But equally - as most would agree - a driver cannot go around undermining his employers.

I'm assuming you were only paying partial attention to the race, Steve.

Red Bull issued team orders because they were worried about their tyres...Horner mentioned it several times during the weekend...and wanted to make sure they brought both cars home for maximum points.

Mercedes issued team orders because they under-filled their cars and ordered both Hamilton and Rosberg to conserve fuel.

Otherwise I'm sure both teams would have let their drivers race to the flag.

[mystiroakey]

Well either way Dryewolfe.

Due to team orders we didnt get the race we could have had

[liverbnz]

Well either way Dryewolfe.

Due to team orders we didnt get the race we could have had

Well that's the worst thing for me or any motor racing fan. No matter where your allegiances lie - I'm a Webber fan but I'd prefer if they were both allowed to race - Fomrula 1 in it's current state is just not right. I honestly wish they'd bring back refueling, taking it away was the worst thing to ever happen to the sport.

[Guest]

Exactly, if the respective teams were not worried about certain factors (i.e tyre degradation or fuel consumption) then none of this would of come about with team orders and the drivers would of been allowed to race to a more natural conclusion, seeing as it's only two races into the championship. You can just keep talking and talking but it's quite clear what happened and why it happened.

One thing's for sure is that Webber's days at Red Bull are numbered and the end maybe sooner rather than later. So what are the odds on Sebastien Buemi driving for Red Bull in China or at a later date in the season? I hear John Watson claiming that Vettel should be suspended for one race for his breach of team orders and replaced by the reserve driver. Can't see that happening at all with the position Vettel holds within the team and the importance of another Championship and Constructors points at stake.

OR.....Webber decided during this three week break that the 'medicine' he talks about just isn't going to be enough and he decides to call it quits. This results in Buemi being promoted to replace Webber and, in doing so, they bring in a Swiss, European based, clearly defined No.2 driver who will be happy to just be in F1 and adhere to playing second fiddle to Vettel. If Webber decided to continue, will Red Bull try and bring in Buemi towards the end of the season if, as expected, Webber is no longer in the hunt for a World Championship. They could still be battling for a Constructors title towards the end of this season, therefore bringing in Buemi to gain experience ahead of a possible role in 2014, if Ricciardo & Vergne have failed at Torro Rosso could be risky. Key decisions to be made for Red Bull racing this season.

[dyrewolfe]

2011 British GP


Frustrated Mark Webber admitted he ignored team orders not to overtake his Red Bull teammate Sebastian Vettel during the final stages of Sunday's British Grand Prix.

The 34-year-old Australian caught German Vettel in the final laps and despite instructions from his team telling him to 'maintain the gap', he mounted several unsuccessful overtaking attempts before settling for third behind winner Fernando Alonso


"I am not fine with it, no," he said. "If Fernando (Alonso) retires on the last lap, we are fighting for the win.

"Of course I ignored the team because I wanted to try and get a place. Seb was doing his best, I was doing my best. I wasn't going to crash with anyone.

"I try to do my best with the amount of one way conversation I was having - I was trying to do my best to pass the guy in front."

Webber played down talk of another favouritism row and suggested that if the situation had been reversed, Vettel would have responded in the same way.

When asked if he was feeling like the number two driver again, he said: "Not really.

"Four or five laps to go, they started to chat to me about holding my position. I wanted the points but I also wanted to get some more points as well.

"I just wanted to race to the end and I'm sure if it had been the other way round it would have been like that as well."

Defending drivers' champion Vettel, 24, said he understood why the team asked them not to race each other but conceded that he had enjoyed the battle.

"I try to stay ahead, nothing wrong with that," he said.

"If you have the cars quite isolated in second and third, with the first guy away and the fourth guy pretty far away, from the team's point of view there is no point racing and doing something stupid.

"The difference between second and third is not massive but we naturally try to race. I tried to hold position. I was struggling, Mark was faster and then there was the chequered flag."

Vettel added that he thought the situation had been blown wildly out of proportion.

"To me at this stage it is quite amusing," he said.

"If it was the other way around, there is no point - of course I would like to overtake Mark at that stage, so no point trying to do something stupid. I don't see why there is such a fuss."

Vettel finished second and now holds an 80 point lead in the title race, Webber is second with 124 points, with Alonso of Ferrari a further 12 points adrift.



Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorsport/mark-webber-ignores-team-orders-as-he-claims-british-grand-prix-podium-place-20110711-1h9co.html#ixzz2OXzV95KR

A bit of attempted revenge for Turkey 2010, perhaps? Vettel definitely wasn't as relaxed about things on that occasion.

[liverbnz]

2011 British GP


Frustrated Mark Webber admitted he ignored team orders not to overtake his Red Bull teammate Sebastian Vettel during the final stages of Sunday's British Grand Prix.

The 34-year-old Australian caught German Vettel in the final laps and despite instructions from his team telling him to 'maintain the gap', he mounted several unsuccessful overtaking attempts before settling for third behind winner Fernando Alonso


"I am not fine with it, no," he said. "If Fernando (Alonso) retires on the last lap, we are fighting for the win.

"Of course I ignored the team because I wanted to try and get a place. Seb was doing his best, I was doing my best. I wasn't going to crash with anyone.

"I try to do my best with the amount of one way conversation I was having - I was trying to do my best to pass the guy in front."

Webber played down talk of another favouritism row and suggested that if the situation had been reversed, Vettel would have responded in the same way.

When asked if he was feeling like the number two driver again, he said: "Not really.

"Four or five laps to go, they started to chat to me about holding my position. I wanted the points but I also wanted to get some more points as well.

"I just wanted to race to the end and I'm sure if it had been the other way round it would have been like that as well."

Defending drivers' champion Vettel, 24, said he understood why the team asked them not to race each other but conceded that he had enjoyed the battle.

"I try to stay ahead, nothing wrong with that," he said.

"If you have the cars quite isolated in second and third, with the first guy away and the fourth guy pretty far away, from the team's point of view there is no point racing and doing something stupid.

"The difference between second and third is not massive but we naturally try to race. I tried to hold position. I was struggling, Mark was faster and then there was the chequered flag."

Vettel added that he thought the situation had been blown wildly out of proportion.

"To me at this stage it is quite amusing," he said.

"If it was the other way around, there is no point - of course I would like to overtake Mark at that stage, so no point trying to do something stupid. I don't see why there is such a fuss."

Vettel finished second and now holds an 80 point lead in the title race, Webber is second with 124 points, with Alonso of Ferrari a further 12 points adrift.



Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorsport/mark-webber-ignores-team-orders-as-he-claims-british-grand-prix-podium-place-20110711-1h9co.html#ixzz2OXzV95KR

A bit of attempted revenge for Turkey 2010, perhaps? Vettel definitely wasn't as relaxed about things on that occasion.

Perhaps. I think that's still a sore point with Webber even though he still managed to finish that race - the team, Horner in particular, seemed to try and shift blame to Webber which I think told everyone were Webber stood in the team, if they didn't already know.

[dyrewolfe]

Well either way Dryewolfe.

Due to team orders we didnt get the race we could have had

Well that's the worst thing for me or any motor racing fan. No matter where your allegiances lie - I'm a Webber fan but I'd prefer if they were both allowed to race - Fomrula 1 in it's current state is just not right. I honestly wish they'd bring back refueling, taking it away was the worst thing to ever happen to the sport.

Have to agree with you there. Heavy fuel tanks and crumbly tyres are not conducive to hard racing.

[bogbrush]

The problem for Mark is where to go? Ferarri? Yeah, he'll really get to race with Alonso won't he?

It's Red Bull or bust for Webber. I think he just has to suck it up. Being silly in revenge will just see him fired. Best he can do is get a place back later in the year, but that'll only happen if Vettel has sewn the title up I think.

[mystiroakey]

Who would take Webber?

[Guest]

It's not the question, who would take Webber? It's more of does Webber want to be in F1 anymore, playing this game with Red Bull that he knows he can't win and in the process he's being humiliated continually by his team and being outperformed and embarrassed by Vettel. The whole situation basically has appeared to have drained everything from him and that his desire and commitment to the sport may have left him, hence why he's commenting about 'he had alot to think about in those remaining laps' and that 'the medicine might not be enough', in referring to his three week break and the decision he has to make.

Leaving Red Bull is like leaving Barcelona in football terms......it's a stepdown anywhere else, therefore he may just call it quits and get out of the sport which I wouldn't blame him.

[bogbrush]

Fair point John. I really wanted him to win in 2010 but it just didn't happen. After that it feels like he's declined and Vettels improved and there's a big gap between them now.
Still, he's being well compensated for it and once he stops the money ends. Does he have enough or does he want more? Personally I think I'd just about suck it up and take the money but ego is a big thing, especially with these guys.

[mystiroakey]

It's not the question, who would take Webber? It's more of does Webber want to be in F1 anymore, playing this game with Red Bull that he knows he can't win and in the process he's being humiliated continually by his team and being outperformed and embarrassed by Vettel. The whole situation basically has appeared to have drained everything from him and that his desire and commitment to the sport may have left him, hence why he's commenting about 'he had alot to think about in those remaining laps' and that 'the medicine might not be enough', in referring to his three week break and the decision he has to make.

Leaving Red Bull is like leaving Barcelona in football terms......it's a stepdown anywhere else, therefore he may just call it quits and get out of the sport which I wouldn't blame him.

its my question?

[Fernando]

Yeah Mark didn't take kindly to Sebastien's actions seemingly it's hmm should i put him in the wall Yes but on 2nd thoughts no better not

[mystiroakey]

"Leaving Red Bull is like leaving Barcelona in football terms......it's a stepdown anywhere else, therefore he may just call it quits and get out of the sport which I wouldn't blame him. "

He is benchwarming at Red bull. If he goes he could be the main striker

[dyrewolfe]

Who would take Webber?

I'd imagine Williams would be happy to have him back. Reckon he'd do a better job than either Mouldydonut or Bottas.

Sauber might be another option.

I think he has too much pride to go to the likes of Marussia or Caterham, but any midfield team wanting to bring an experienced driver on board would be a viable option.

He certainly doesn't need the money any more, so it would just be a question of whether he still has the desire and motivation to continue driving with a lesser team.

[bogbrush]

Yeah, Williams.

I think the Red Bull thing has some slight echos of McLaren with Alonso & Hamilton; different in that this is joint #1s evolving into 1 & 2 whereas McLaren was a #1 who found himself with an equally good teammate, and really didn't like it! He fixed that by leaving to get what he wanted.

[Fernando]

It's not so bad Mark can go into advertising if leaves (Felix Antonio De Costa would replace not Buemi despite being test driver)

[liverbnz]

Webber will race for RBR for the rest of the season, I have little doubt about that. Anything he's said has been in the immediate aftermath of the event - he'll have plenty of time to let it settle. He's an experienced canpaigner and he'll know he's probably in the right place at RBR.

Rather than get down about it I hope Webber uses this as motivation to return to 2010 form and give Vettel a run for his money. When he's on it, Webber can match the best of them, he's just far too incosistent. Hopefully this will be his spur.

Also Vettel owes him one and should move over next time they're in a 1-2 situation as long as it doesn't affect the WDC - so any time in the next few races really. That's how RBR should deal with it if they are genuine about treating their drivers 'equally'.

[CaledonianCraig]

Sorry liverbenz but how is there a chance in hell of Webber giving Vettel a run for his money? Vettel A. Is the team's blue-eyed boy B. Team orders only apply to Webber at Red Bull C. Vettel has final say what happens there.

In those circumstances how on Earth can Webber be expected to give Vettel a run for his money? It is akin to saying hopefully Massa can give Alonso a run for his money.

[bogbrush]

He could ignore team orders, like he has before (which don't apply to him if he decides to ignore them, as shown on this thread).

[GSC]

or D. hes not in Vettels league

[CaledonianCraig]

He could ignore team orders, like he has before (which don't apply to him if he decides to ignore them, as shown on this thread).

Yes he could and hopefully he will but cannot see it. The ball is firmly now in Webber's court.

[liverbnz]

Sorry liverbenz but how is there a chance in hell of Webber giving Vettel a run for his money? Vettel A. Is the team's blue-eyed boy B. Team orders only apply to Webber at Red Bull C. Vettel has final say what happens there.

In those circumstances how on Earth can Webber be expected to give Vettel a run for his money? It is akin to saying hopefully Massa can give Alonso a run for his money.

The same way he did in 2010. Get his starts sorted out and get himself motivated for every race. In not saying it'll happen or it's even likely but it i was in his shoes that would be my aim.

Plus I think if you put Vettel under pressure you can crack him. His temperament is questionable when he's not storming of into the distance.

[CaledonianCraig]

Yes but remember 2010 was before Vettel had become world champion. Since then there is no doubt the dynamics within the team have changed. Vettel does as he pleases and team orders don't exist for him. However, if Webber again leads a race say in China it will be very interesting to see what transpires.

A possible theory I have about the whole incident on Saturday is this. We know Webber could have moved on in the summer but instead stayed. Perhaps he got assurances from Red Bull that early doors in the season he'd be free to race Vettel but at a certain point in the season the leading driver in the Championship would then be the chosen one to get preferential treatment in the title race. If Vettel was to know this as well perhaps he felt he couldn't let Webber win as it may open the door to Webber getting preferential treatment. Unlikely I know but just a thought I had.

[Bull]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jbb3tYcyRvw

anyone else see this during the race?

pretty much sums up Mark's reaction.

[bogbrush]

Yes but remember 2010 was before Vettel had become world champion. Since then there is no doubt the dynamics within the team have changed. Vettel does as he pleases and team orders don't exist for him. However, if Webber again leads a race say in China it will be very interesting to see what transpires.

A possible theory I have about the whole incident on Saturday is this. We know Webber could have moved on in the summer but instead stayed. Perhaps he got assurances from Red Bull that early doors in the season he'd be free to race Vettel but at a certain point in the season the leading driver in the Championship would then be the chosen one to get preferential treatment in the title race. If Vettel was to know this as well perhaps he felt he couldn't let Webber win as it may open the door to Webber getting preferential treatment. Unlikely I know but just a thought I had.

How many times do you have to be told team orders do not exist for Mark Webber before it sinks into your posting?you write as if Silverstone 2011 and Mark's quotes afterwards never happened.

[CaledonianCraig]

Tell Christian Horner that BB. Let us remember Seb is his love child yet even he has openly said Webber has played ball with team orders many times and that Seb was out of order yesterday. Webber not following team rules at Silverstone (lest you forget) came after Red Bull had openly favoured Vettel taking parts from Webber's car to put on Vettel's so is it any surprised he was so miffed he did what he did? In my opinion it is nowhere near the situation that arose yesterday as it was totally different circumstances. Webber has played the team game before as Horner openly admits but as far as I can recall Vettel never has and the one time he was asked to dio it he didn't.

[bogbrush]

Yeah,totally different. One was behind and told not to overtake and the other was behind and....... er.......

[CaledonianCraig]

Think about it. If you do it is different. At that time Webber was beginning to see the red mist as it was becoming clear that Red Bull were favouring Vettel over him going to extent of taking parts from his car to give to Vettel which must have been a blow to him. Yes he did wrong going against team orders but at a time when surely he was not in the mood to play ball. Since then, by Horner's admission Webber has played the team game many times. Yesterday he was under the belief from team orders that the race win was his but Vettel disregarded team orders to take the win. I don't really see that Vettel has an excuse this time especially considering how he has willingly benifited from team orders many times in the past three or four years.

[CaledonianCraig]

Would just like to add that I don't like team orders at all and would much rather have seen Vettel and Webber and Hamilton and Rosberg allowed to race. However, they do exist and since Vettel has chosen in the past to benefit from those team orders then disregarding them here is just not on in my opinion. If Seb really wants just to race fair and square then fair enough but in that case he should not expect any more favours from team orders in the future.

[bogbrush]

So he developed a red mist when the nose was taken, it stayed with him through the race and was still there when he conducted a rational interview?

Wow, that's one Hell of a rage!

Regarding your next post about orders and Vettel, maybe he just reckons he's the #1 driver and wants what Alonso had. I dunno, maybe three titles is his justification for that.

[CaledonianCraig]

About being No.1 driver that is fair enough but Red Bull do ridiculously claim both drivers are an equal. We now know that isn't the case as Vettel does as he pleases in the team. True it is no different from Alonso at Ferrari but does that make it right?

[liverbnz]

The dynamics at Red Bull in 2010 were no different - maybe less obvious but Vettel was the blue-eyed boy there was no doubt about that. Turkey 2010 proves that beyond doubt when Vettel turned into Webber yet the team decided to indirectly blame Mark. The only difference between now and 2010 has been Webber's drive and ambition.

[monty junior]

About being No.1 driver that is fair enough but Red Bull do ridiculously claim both drivers are an equal. We now know that isn't the case as Vettel does as he pleases in the team. True it is no different from Alonso at Ferrari but does that make it right?

I think it's more because at 90% of races through the year Webber doesn't see which way Vettel went.

[mystiroakey]

Yeah lets be honest. Horner is no fool. If webber was faster and the better driver he would be no.1..

Yes having a German champ is significantly better for the F1 Brand. But what does red bull acheive by making drivers on equal pegging or putting the worse driver as the no.1

[dyrewolfe]

Lets face it, neither driver is a saint, but on terms of recklessness/ignoring team orders I believe Seb (Turkey, Malaysia) is ahead of Webber (Silverstone).

Both drivers are strong-willed, but Webber is obviously handicapped by the fact Red Bull is Vettel's team. Mark is also the more honest and gentlemanly (and therefore likeable) of the pair. After Silverstone 2011 he came straight out and admitted he'd disobeyed team order, unlike Vettel who initially tried to make out he'd not understood the order.

Webber gave a brief glimpse of what he's capable of when he tried to hold Vettel off (not to mention numerous other occasions when he's given displays of hard, skillful racing).

Maybe ultimately he's not quite in Vettel's league in terms of raw pace (nor, it would appear, ruthlessness) but I reckon he's not far off and that given free rein, he could get the better of Seb and certainly make a much closer contest of it than he's been able to....lest we forget, since 2010 Webber has been effectively driving with one arm tied behind his back.

As liverbnz said (and as we have seen for ourselves) when Vettel is under pressure he tends to make mistakes (Abu Dhabi 2012, Canada 2011, Turkey 2010 etc.) Hence why Red Bull's strategy is usually geared towards taking the pressure off him and letting him control races from the front.

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