My Lions View.

First topic message reminder :

Ok so with the dust settling on the 6 Nations, I've been thinking a lot about the Lions and who should and shouldn't go. I initially selected a 37 man squad, but then after discussion elsewhere have added one player, that player being Joe Launchbury covering the second and back rows, and swapped one for one, with Richie Gray going out, and Nathan Hines coming in.

1. Cian Healy, Gethin Jenkins, Ryan Grant
2. Richard Hibbard, Rory Best, Dylan Hartley
3. Adam Jones, Dan Cole, Euan Murray
4. Jim Hamilton, Nathan Hines, Joe Launchbury
5. Geoff Parling, Ian Evans
6. Tom Wood, Chris Robshaw, Kelly Brown
7. Sam Warburton, Justin Tipuric
8. Johnnie Beattie, Toby Faletau

9. Mike Phillips, Conor Murray, Ben Youngs
10. Johnny Sexton, Owen Farrell, Dan Biggar

11. George North, Craig Gilroy
12. Jamie Roberts, Matt Scott
13. Manu Tuilagi, Brian O'Driscoll
14. Christian Wade, Sean Maitland
15. Stuart Hogg, Leigh Halfpenny, Rob Kearney

That's 38 players, broke down by nationality as follows.

Wales 12
England 10
Scotland 9
Ireland 7


The breakdown of players by nationality actually surprised me, as I thought I would select mainly English and Welsh, but the split is pretty even. It is however in direct correlation to the countries finishing positions in the 6 Nations. This was not planned, it has just turned out that way. I think we have an issue on the wing, where I didn't want to pick Maitland as I would prefer not to select brought in from other nations players. I've also gone for Wade as a bolter, as on hard ground out there he could be a real weapon for us.

I would imagine that there will be eyebrows raised about some omissions, namely Alun Wyn Jones, Jonathan Davies and Alex Cuthbert. For me Alun Wyn Jones flatters to decieve. I've seen him have the odd fantastic game, but I've also seen him look distinctly average too many times, and I don't think he is a better option at 4 than any of the players I've selected. Jonathan Davies I am a big fan of, but I don't think he's been at his best this 6 Nations, and he is in a very competitive position, so narrowly misses out. And Alex Cuthbert, for all of his undoubted attacking threat, appears to me to be able to be got at defensively by a quality opponent. I know people will point to Wade not being a top class defender, but I wanted that something different in the squad, and I think on the hard grounds out there he could be a fantastic weapon of the bench.

So that's me. Thoughts? Criticisms? Who would you select and why?

Ozzy,

Sorry if this question seems a bit pedantic, but can I ask if your selection is the squad you:

(a) would like to see tour

or

(b) think has the best chance to beat the Wallabies

or

(c) think Gatland will actually select

or

(d) would like to see tour, choosing from a group which excludes those you assume Gatland himself won't consider.

or

(e) think has the best chance to beat the Wallabies, choosing from a group which excludes those you assume Gatland himself won't consider.

I'm curious, because if I was given a completely free hand to choose 35-40 Home Nations players to take on Australia down under, I'm daft enough to think about including some cherished why-is-he-so-out-of-favour players and more than a few what-if-someone-just-gave-them-the-chance fliers because I'd love to see whether they would all rise to the challenge.

I'd have in mind a spine of the squad formed with some long-in-the-tooth pros who would just be delighted to be asked to put on the shirt and have a crack at that level again (or even for the first time) while the front runners for the Test side would include a large share of guys you think might deliver the goods in spades or blow up in the process. Just to see what happened. Not very professional, but perhaps a lot of fun. Possibly a bit too much Barbarians and not enough Lions.

The names, in some ways are irrelevant. There are always people talking up Cipriani and Henson (not me, mind you) but I met a bloke the other night who swears Luke Narraway is a bigger loss to English rugby than Steffon Armitage. I think it might have been on 606v2 recently where someone was talking up Leo Cullen and I'm sure I've started to see Lee Byrne mentioned almost as much as Sheridan. Oh look, there's Nick Easter.

I suppose I'm saying that most Lions selections seem terribly confined by what has happened over the last few weeks. When I see someone in the press name their Lions squad I sometimes get the feeling they are torn between choosing names they want to see, and predicting who will actually go. Fair enough, perhaps, for a paid punter, because he might think his bread is better buttered if he looks like he has an inside line.

I'm asking because it looks a little to me, Ozzy, that, outside of Wade as a bolter, you don't really disagree too much with the selections made by the four nations managers/coaches/whatever their titles might be. Yes, you have Hartley ahead of Tom Youngs but that's not such a radical disagreement with Lancaster who has been prepared to start Hartley.

Of course, you've also got Hines, which also steps outside the national selection policy, but perhaps has a nod to the 2009 tour, which Gatland was on.

Are you doing a (c) (d) or (e) on us, or do you really have no wild fantasies about players outside the usual suspects apart from Wade & Hines? (Who aren't really complete outside bets because they do get mentioned a lot.)

I'd be surprised if the starting XV is dominated by a many Welshmen as many pundits seem to be picking. I'm sure Gatland has a game plan and will pick accordingly. I'm sure he'll look at the whole season and club form between now and the tour. I think they'll struggle if the pick 10-12 Welsh players in the starting 15.

Loosehead - Healy, Jenkins

Hooker - Best, Hibbard, Youngs

Tighthead - Jones, Cole, Murray

Lock - Parling, AWJ, Hines, Ryan, Evans (assuming Gray wont make it)

Blindside - O'Brien, Wood, Croft

Openside - Tipuric, Robshaw

Number 8 - Faletau, Heaslip

Scrum half - Youngs, Phillips, Care

Fly half - Sexton, Farrell, Biggar

Inside centre - Roberts

Outside centre - BOD, Tuilagi, JDv2 (Davies covering IC if needed)

Wing - North, Halfpenny, Zebo, Bowe

Full back - Hogg, Kearney, Brown

That's a 37 man squad which is what I'd like to see travel.

In terms of the out there selections:

Bowe and Zebo - I've selected them despite injuries as I feel they offer more than their competition simple as that. Bowe is the best all round winger we have by a fair way in my opinion and Zebo offers a bit of x-factor that the backs could be missing otherwise. I'd also like to see Halfpenny go as a winger since I feel, whilst a very good FB, he could be an exceptional winger with his skill set - also wing is a much barer cupboard than 15!

Croft - I've put him in there as he offers something different to the other options. IMO there's little point of having three guys to pick from at 6 if they offer basically the same option - i.e. Wood, Lydiate and Brown. Croft offers a lot of pace and a great option in the line-out which allows you to pick two brutes in the second row if wanted.

In terms of guys who narrowly missed out:

Laidlaw is playing well and offers a good tactician to control the game at 9 (he could get dominated by Genia physically though).
Cuthbert is very strong in attack but could easily targeted in defence which something Aus are very good at doing.
POC, Launchberry and Charteris (what's his progress currently?) are in a very competitive position but I'd have little criticism of any of them traveling.
Warburton, Lydiate and Brown are all also unlucky to miss out in a very competitive position.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

gleesonisgod wrote:
Squad/Starting

Welsh 14/5
English 9/3
Irish 9/6
Scottish 5/1

I hesitate before asking this question, but do you really feel that the biggest national representation in the test XV should be from the side that finished lowest of the constituent nations in the 6 Nations?

You were right to hesitate. It's completely pointless to argue about the level of representation from each country. Obviously every supporter wants as many of their own going on tour but, step back a bit and consider what is the reason for touring in the first place. To win.

The Lions should not be selected using the same criteria as the Barbarians, whatever that is. It should, and hopefully will, be chosen based on the same basis as a national side. So therefore, while there may be a case for selecting the bulk of the side from the winners of the 6n, there are many other factors that must be taken into consideration, the least of which is how many players from which country.

We are well used to this parochial carping in our provincial set up in Ireland. Given that, for the most part, our teams are made up of players from their respective native provinces. But apart form one team playing better than another, and the fact that there may be merit in making selections based on unit performances, there is no particular reason for one country to have superior numbers than another based purely on the allegiances of the fans, or more pertinently, the management.

On the face of it, Ireland have had a bad 6n and Wales a good one, ergo there should be more Welsh travelling. If by some chance Gatland has a brain fart and picks a raft of Irish players who have come back from injury, I would be quite upset because I want the best 15 to take to the field and I want them to win, and unless those players show particularly good form in what's left of the domestic season, they should not be selected on reputation or experience alone. But that does not necessarily mean that I want a Welsh side with a different badge on their jerseys, which would be neither in the spirit of the tour nor a particularly good idea.

The team should be selected using criteria based on factors such as form (obviously), experience, game plan, opposition, etc. and only then can the level of representation be looked at. But purely for bragging rights......if they win!

Rugby Fan wrote:Ozzy,

Sorry if this question seems a bit pedantic, but can I ask if your selection is the squad you:

(a) would like to see tour

or

(b) think has the best chance to beat the Wallabies

or

(c) think Gatland will actually select

or

(d) would like to see tour, choosing from a group which excludes those you assume Gatland himself won't consider.

or

(e) think has the best chance to beat the Wallabies, choosing from a group which excludes those you assume Gatland himself won't consider.

Or all of the above...

What squad are we expecting to see from Aus at the moment out of interest?

I've fallen out of touch with news re injuries and form in the S15 so any updates on that would be much appreciated!

Glas a du wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Ozzy,

Sorry if this question seems a bit pedantic, but can I ask if your selection is the squad you:

(a) would like to see tour

or

(b) think has the best chance to beat the Wallabies

or

(c) think Gatland will actually select

or

(d) would like to see tour, choosing from a group which excludes those you assume Gatland himself won't consider.

or

(e) think has the best chance to beat the Wallabies, choosing from a group which excludes those you assume Gatland himself won't consider.

Or all of the above...

It's the squad I would select had I been afforded the honour which has been bestowed upon Gatland.

On that basis my 36

James, Duncan Jones, Grant
Hibbard, Best, Strauss
Jones, Mitchell, Ross
Launchbery, Evans, AW Jones, Ryan
Ryan Jones, Brown
Beattie (c), Faletau
Tipuric, Warburton, O'Brien

Phillips, Murray, Laidlaw
Biggar, Farell, Madigan
Roberts, Twelevetrees, Davies, Tuilagi
North, Zebo, Sharples, Liam Williams
Halfpenny, Kearney.

18 Wales
9 Ireland
5 England
4 Scotland

What about Tavis Glas?

He's injured mun!

Glas a du wrote:On that basis my 36

James, Duncan Jones, Grant
Hibbard, Best, Strauss
Jones, Mitchell, Ross
Launchbery, Evans, AW Jones, Ryan
Ryan Jones, Brown
Beattie (c), Faletau
Tipuric, Warburton, O'Brien

Phillips, Murray, Laidlaw
Biggar, Farell, Madigan
Roberts, Twelevetrees, Davies, Tuilagi
North, Zebo, Sharples, Liam Williams
Halfpenny, Kearney.

18 Wales
9 Ireland
5 England
4 Scotland

I'm gonna call your bluff.

Controversy for controversys sake!

My 36 man Lions squad:

Looseheads - Healy,Jenkins,Vunipola

Hookers - Best,Hibbard,Youngs

Tightheads- Jones,Cole,Ross

2nd rows - Parling,Launchbury,AWJ,Evans

Backrow - Brown,SOB,Warburton,Tipuric,Robshaw, Faletau

Scrum halves -Phillips,Youngs,Murray

Fly halves - Farrell,Sexton,Biggar

Centres - Roberts,Barritt,BOD,Tuilagi,

Wingers - North,Cuthbert,Wade,Maitland

Full backs -Halfpenny,Brown,Kearney

14 Welsh
12 English
8 Irish
2 Scottish

I think this is one of the most balenced and considered Lions selections I have seen. So well done Ozzy.

The key thing for the Lions is not to saturate the squad and test team with players from the same nation. The winning tours have all been based on blending the best of all the home nations.

The Welsh team are currently the best having won the 6N in emphatic style but they have failed to beat Australia in their last 5 or 6 encounters? Hence flooding the team with Welsh I don't think will work.

It falls to Gatland to pick the best players from the home nations and get them playing the best rugby.

My pick :

Loosies : Healy, Jenkins, Grant

Tight Heads : A. Jones, Cole, Murray

Hookers : Best, Hibbard, Youngs

Locks : AW Jones, Evans, Parling, Ryan, Gray (if he plays again this season) Hines,

Blind Side : Robshaw, Brown

Openside : Warburton, Tipuric

No. 8 : Faleteu, Beattie

Utility Backrower : SOB

Scrum Half : Laidlaw, Phillips, Youngs

Fly Half :Sexton, Biggar, Farrell

Inside centre : Roberts, Scott Twelvetrees

Outside Centre : BOD, Tuilagi

Wings : North, Cuthbert, Maitland, Brown, Bowe/Gilroy

Fullbacks : Halfpenny, Hogg

Utility Back : Kearney

41 Tourists : 14 Welsh, 9 English, 9 Scots, 7 Irish

From that lot my test team would look like :

1 Healy
2 Hibbard
3 Cole
4 AW Jones
5 Hines
6 Robshaw [C]
7 Tipuric
8 Faletau

9 Laidlaw
10 Sexton / Biggar
11 Halfpenny
12 Roberts
13 Tuilagi
14 Cuthbert
15 Hogg

16 Jones
17 Best
18 Jenkins
19 Parling
20 SOB
21 Phillips
22 BOD
23 North

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The winning tours have all been based on blending the best of all the home nations.

Possibly worth mentioning that the winning tours have all been in the amateur era and while we can learn from them, game preparation has greatly kicked on since 1997.

On of the key questions is how we are going to play

If we go for the huge bish bosh tactics I feel we will lose - their pack is not a push over we keep trying to say and their back line will eat up large straight runners

I think we have to mix it up, with some guile as well as power

Hence:

1 Healy
2 Hibbard
3 Cole - good in scrum but offers more in loose
4 AW Jones
5 Hines - power and great hands
6 Robshaw [C]
7 Tipuric
8 Faletau

9 Laidlaw - Phillips will just run into their pack and end up at the bottom of a ruck - one good game this 6 nations is not enough
10 Sexton
11 Zebo
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Cuthbert
15 Halfpenny

Riskysports wrote:On of the key questions is how we are going to play

If we go for the huge bish bosh tactics I feel we will lose - their pack is not a push over we keep trying to say and their back line will eat up large straight runners

I think we have to mix it up, with some guile as well as power

My feelings exactly there Risky. Australia may not have the biggest backs or the best pack at set piece but in the loose their forwards are exceptional (especially the back row) and in defence their backs are very intelligent. They may not make huge tackles but almost always put their man on the floor and then the back row can run rampage if we use a predictable game plan.

As such I'd like to see a team of smart footballers capable of out-playing them not aiming to overpower them.

1.Healy/Jenkins - wait for them to separate themselves
2.Best
3.Jones - a rock in the scrum
4.AWJ
5.Parling/Evans/POC - Parling and Evans to close to call and I'd love to see POC return to his best!
6.SOB
7.Tipuric
8.Heaslip - With SOB at blindside he balances the back row

9.Youngs
10.Sexton

11.North
12.JDv2
13.BOD
14.Bowe - please return in time, he's the best we've got on the wing...
15.Halfpenny

16.Hibbard 17.Jenkins 18.Cole 19.Hines 20.Robshaw 21.Phillips 22.Farrell 23.Hogg

red_stag wrote:

Glas a du wrote:On that basis my 36

James, Duncan Jones, Grant
Hibbard, Best, Strauss
Jones, Mitchell, Ross
Launchbery, Evans, AW Jones, Ryan
Ryan Jones, Brown
Beattie (c), Faletau
Tipuric, Warburton, O'Brien

Phillips, Murray, Laidlaw
Biggar, Farell, Madigan
Roberts, Twelevetrees, Davies, Tuilagi
North, Zebo, Sharples, Liam Williams
Halfpenny, Kearney.

18 Wales
9 Ireland
5 England
4 Scotland

I'm gonna call your bluff.

Controversy for controversys sake!

No.

Well...

Look I was making two points in a convoluted way:

1 - if we are honest with ourselves and actually put who we'd want to see rather than who we want to see tempered by what other people might call us, we end up with the odd bonkers/left field/wild card selection.

2 - if we are honest, some nations not only have the better players in certain positions, but also the better back up players, some of whom may not even appear in the national squads. There is nothing to say that e.g. the tight heads won't all be Welsh (From Jones, Mitchell, Andrews, Jarvis) or the blind sides wont all be Irish (from Ferris, O'Brien, O'Mahony)

I can assure you, Gatland won't care where the players he wants are from or about the balance between nations.

I know that Glas but I just don't believe that you truly think the Lions are better off with all of Cian Healy, Gethin Jenkins, Jonny Sexton, Dan Cole, Chris Robshaw and Brian O'Driscoll all absent from the touring squad.

Methinks it is an attempt to stir debate.

Glas a du wrote:
1 - if we are honest with ourselves and actually put who we'd want to see rather than who we want to see tempered by what other people might call us, we end up with the odd bonkers/left field/wild card selection.

2 - if we are honest, some nations not only have the better players in certain positions, but also the better back up players, some of whom may not even appear in the national squads. There is nothing to say that e.g. the tight heads won't all be Welsh (From Jones, Mitchell, Andrews, Jarvis) or the blind sides wont all be Irish (from Ferris, O'Brien, O'Mahony)

I can assure you, Gatland won't care where the players he wants are from or about the balance between nations.

Yeah the thing is though Glas traditionally the Welsh are a bit cliquey and odd and generally don't make great tourists. A bit like the Munster lads really.

For that reason I'd see Gats trying to balance things out a bit even if the Welsh have all the best players.

Wales are not be the best example either as he is our coach. You know there won't be wild cards from Wales because he picked them in 2011. He hasn't seem the sense of picking Duncan Jones in 5 years so why should he start now? The only ones really who may bolt from Wales are Walker, Liam Williams and Beck, but I can't see it.

Ireland however is a different story. He will not defer to Kidney's selection policy. He backed Priestland in 2011, I can see him going for Madigan.

Other Irish players he may rate: Court, Strauss, Kilcoyne, Ryan, McCarthy, Ronan, McSharry, Trimble, Jones. All of whom haven't found favour with Kidney. In fact I'd go as far as say he'll want at least one Irish wild card to urine them off!

Strauss is injured. He hasn't been written off. If he had been fit I would have certainly backed him to travel with Best and Hibbard.

Thats an interesting one Glas. I have a feeling if there is an Irish bolter it isn't Madigan its Paul Marshall. Easlily the best scrum half in Ireland and an excellent alternative to Phillips.

Paul Marshalls competition is in Danny Care who performs the same role in the squad.

I agree with you and Williams/Care/Marshall/Cussiter/Peel are the type of scrum half I want to see. Gatland however prefers a Phillips/Murray/Knoyle/Youngs type.

king_carlos wrote:

Riskysports wrote:On of the key questions is how we are going to play

If we go for the huge bish bosh tactics I feel we will lose - their pack is not a push over we keep trying to say and their back line will eat up large straight runners

I think we have to mix it up, with some guile as well as power

My feelings exactly there Risky. Australia may not have the biggest backs or the best pack at set piece but in the loose their forwards are exceptional (especially the back row) and in defence their backs are very intelligent. They may not make huge tackles but almost always put their man on the floor and then the back row can run rampage if we use a predictable game plan.

As such I'd like to see a team of smart footballers capable of out-playing them not aiming to overpower them.

1.Healy/Jenkins - wait for them to separate themselves
2.Best
3.Jones - a rock in the scrum
4.AWJ
5.Parling/Evans/POC - Parling and Evans to close to call and I'd love to see POC return to his best!
6.SOB
7.Tipuric
8.Heaslip - With SOB at blindside he balances the back row

9.Youngs
10.Sexton

11.North
12.JDv2
13.BOD
14.Bowe - please return in time, he's the best we've got on the wing...
15.Halfpenny

16.Hibbard 17.Jenkins 18.Cole 19.Hines 20.Robshaw 21.Phillips 22.Farrell 23.Hogg

Best team I have seen from a fellow poster. Although I fear Bowe will not be fit, so I'd go with Cuthbert or Zebo, who both should be fit.
I think Faletau has been playing much better than Heaslip, but that's it really.