Living and dying with a golden generation

I wondered if any Irish posters could pass on some helpful tips to us English and Welsh.

Yeah... when the going gets tough just remember there's always the Heino

True.

But hiring a shed-load of Saffers doesn't exactly solve the problem does it?

Oh wait a minute...

[recompute recompute recompute ]

computer says yes!

greytiger wrote:True.

But hiring a shed-load of Saffers doesn't exactly solve the problem does it?

Oh wait a minute...

[recompute recompute recompute ]

computer says yes!

Sarries havent won the HC have they??

Lets see Irish teams have 5 max NIQ, in the squad, and that will be going down further.

English teams on the other hand...................

Leinster won two Hcups with no more than two foreigners in their team.

2011 - Nacewa & Hines. Three if you include Strauss who is now Irish.
2012 - Nacewa & Thorne. Strauss was also in the team.

by contrast when Leicester tigers won the Heineken cup:

2002 - Tuilagi (Samoa), Hamilton (Scotland), Murphy (Ireland), Kafer (Australia), plus a number of foreign subs.

Last final appearance 2009: Murphy, Hamilton, Tuilagi, Dupuy, Ayerza, Castrogiovanni, Newby.

Almost half the team were foreign the last time Leicester were any good. Laughable!!!!!!!!!

How should England an Wales nurture their fledgelings and create a new nursery?

It's a problem.

You wouldn't want to school some classes overstuffed with particular talents whilst leaving others empty.

No good having a team load of impresarios with no chorus.

GunsGerms wrote:Leinster won two Hcups with no more than two foreigners in their team.

2011 - Nacewa & Hines. Three if you include Strauss who is now Irish.
2012 - Nacewa & Thorne. Strauss was also in the team.

by contrast when Leicester tigers won the Heineken cup:

2002 - Tuilagi (Samoa), Hamilton (Scotland), Murphy (Ireland), Kafer (Australia), plus a number of foreign subs.

Last final appearance 2009: Murphy, Hamilton, Tuilagi, Dupuy, Ayerza, Castrogiovanni, Newby.

Almost half the team were foreign the last time Leicester were any good. Laughable!!!!!!!!!

Yeah but you've got to remember that England's clubs don't exist to serve the national team, in contrast to Scotland, Ireland, Wales, New Zealand, Italy, Australia and South Africa, they also have a very different system, they have 12 teams that are playing rugby to a very high standard and as a result if every English team had seven foreigners each week there would still be 96 English players starting whereas if each Irish team had just two foreigners every week there would be 52 Irish players each week to choose from.

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

greytiger wrote:True.

But hiring a shed-load of Saffers doesn't exactly solve the problem does it?

Oh wait a minute...

[recompute recompute recompute ]

computer says yes!

Sarries havent won the HC have they??

it is quality you should look for, not quantity.

Biltong wrote:

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

greytiger wrote:True.

But hiring a shed-load of Saffers doesn't exactly solve the problem does it?

Oh wait a minute...

[recompute recompute recompute ]

computer says yes!

Sarries havent won the HC have they??

it is quality you should look for, not quantity.

To be honest Biltong, the shipping in of shed-loads of ex-patriate Saffers is a bit of a diversion.

England and especially Wales have a crop of home (or at least home-ish) grown talent.

The question is how to nurture the nursery beds to produce an ongoing crop of prize winners.

I was asking the Irish for tips on how to avoid a crop failure.
A South African monoculture appears to create grotesque specimens but no prize winners of note.

Maybe I should have just have asked the Kiwis directly - how do you maintain a golden generation rather than to the Irish : how do you avoid losing one.

I was being facetious mate.

I don't beleive in having foreigners in your domestic compeitions. I have heard many people say it brings experience, mentoring etc.

I think it is all hogwash.

You build and maintain momentum by having your own players build experience, they must do the mentoring, they must instill pride in the jersey, professionalism etc.


Bringing in foreigners is not a long term solution.

I can differentiate between hogwash and Hogwarts mate.

The trick is creating the know-how.

Ireland have a school which is closely modelled on the NZ model but doesn't cope with fags becoming prefects.

In NZ they put the fags in early when the prefects are resting.

Although there is obvious post six nations gloom in Ireland I don't see the end of a golden era but a badly juggled phase between two coaches and the legacy started way back with Keith Wood, Brian O'Driscoll, Ronana O'Gara and countless more since.

Those players inspired a generation of young irish rugby players to realise Ireland can compete and beat the best.

With young players as good as they currently have, Ireland will not be down for very long.

Tiger, it's only at international level where the young guys aren't getting through. And that's mainly due to the backwards selection policy of the coaching staff.

At the provincial level there is plenty of talent coming through. Look at how the Irish U20's did at last years JWC. Beat the Baby Boks on their own turf, without their captain and arguably one of their stars, Paddy Jackson.

Look at the talent coming through with Ulster, Leinster, Munster and Connacht. Watch the upcoming JWC and the tour to Canada and the US for how the Irish are developing players.

Guys like Ferris, Sexton, Bowe, D'Arcy, Best, Heaslip, POC could be replaced, and some arguably have been. The young guys may not be as good now but they are stepping up at a rapid pace. The only players we have so far failed to replace at provincial level are Mike Ross and BOD, and there are plenty of plans afoot to do just that in the next two seasons.

Biltong wrote:I was being facetious mate.

I don't beleive in having foreigners in your domestic compeitions. I have heard many people say it brings experience, mentoring etc.

I think it is all hogwash.

You build and maintain momentum by having your own players build experience, they must do the mentoring, they must instill pride in the jersey, professionalism etc.


Bringing in foreigners is not a long term solution.

+ 1

.... apart from Muller, Pienaar, Payne and Williams of course.....

The secret knack appears to be not just a succession of talent, but a cohesive cohort of talent which is capable of compensating for injury and illness etc. without grossly affecting the nations' performances.

OK When a country unearths an exceptional talent (like in Ireland's case, BOD), they naturally count their blessings and exploit it. But the problem in most cases is to generate more than one player to reliably replace anyone missing.

I'd argue that Ireland rather than being unlucky with injury this year, have been exceptionally lucky over the past few with a lack of injuries. And in the second row and half-back, the lack of depth has been exposed. But the thin reliance in many positions on individuals is evident.

And the same goes for Wales and England - potential exposure to lack of depth.

greytiger wrote:The secret knack appears to be not just a succession of talent, but a cohesive cohort of talent which is capable of compensating for injury and illness etc. without grossly affecting the nations' performances.

OK When a country unearths an exceptional talent (like in Ireland's case, BOD), they naturally count their blessings and exploit it. But the problem in most cases is to generate more than one player to reliably replace anyone missing.

I'd argue that Ireland rather than being unlucky with injury this year, have been exceptionally lucky over the past few with a lack of injuries. And in the second row and half-back, the lack of depth has been exposed. But the thin reliance in many positions on individuals is evident.

And the same goes for Wales and England - potential exposure to lack of depth.

I think Wales are working tirelessly to keep the ball rolling. We have better competition for pretty much every position on the team than anyone else in the NH.

Biltong wrote:I was being facetious mate.

I don't beleive in having foreigners in your domestic compeitions. I have heard many people say it brings experience, mentoring etc.

I think it is all hogwash.

You build and maintain momentum by having your own players build experience, they must do the mentoring, they must instill pride in the jersey, professionalism etc.


Bringing in foreigners is not a long term solution.

I have been banned from two Welsh forums for saying exactly this.

The only way IMHO to develop players is for them to play.

maestegmafia wrote:

greytiger wrote:The secret knack appears to be not just a succession of talent, but a cohesive cohort of talent which is capable of compensating for injury and illness etc. without grossly affecting the nations' performances.

OK When a country unearths an exceptional talent (like in Ireland's case, BOD), they naturally count their blessings and exploit it. But the problem in most cases is to generate more than one player to reliably replace anyone missing.

I'd argue that Ireland rather than being unlucky with injury this year, have been exceptionally lucky over the past few with a lack of injuries. And in the second row and half-back, the lack of depth has been exposed. But the thin reliance in many positions on individuals is evident.

And the same goes for Wales and England - potential exposure to lack of depth.

I think Wales are working tirelessly to keep the ball rolling. We have better competition for pretty much every position on the team than anyone else in the NH.

I cant agree Maes there are still at least 24 NWQ's on the books of the Welsh regions thats 24 places unavailable to develop our youth.

Even with these NWQ's we have not a team left in the HQ

OK Allty

Look at the Welsh squad, we suffer a lock crisis, four out injured, we slip Coombes in. In the Autumn we miss Adam and Mitchell, we find Jarvis and Andrews can do the job, we have 20 year old Samson Lee learning his trade.

Regional rugby in Wales and its abilities compared to other nations is bordering on the ridiculous and purely financial difference we can't close between larger economies than ours.

Scotland are in the same boat as us.

Allty wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

greytiger wrote:The secret knack appears to be not just a succession of talent, but a cohesive cohort of talent which is capable of compensating for injury and illness etc. without grossly affecting the nations' performances.

OK When a country unearths an exceptional talent (like in Ireland's case, BOD), they naturally count their blessings and exploit it. But the problem in most cases is to generate more than one player to reliably replace anyone missing.

I'd argue that Ireland rather than being unlucky with injury this year, have been exceptionally lucky over the past few with a lack of injuries. And in the second row and half-back, the lack of depth has been exposed. But the thin reliance in many positions on individuals is evident.

And the same goes for Wales and England - potential exposure to lack of depth.

I think Wales are working tirelessly to keep the ball rolling. We have better competition for pretty much every position on the team than anyone else in the NH.

I cant agree Maes there are still at least 24 NWQ's on the books of the Welsh regions thats 24 places unavailable to develop our youth.

Even with these NWQ's we have not a team left in the HQ

I'd have to agree. England are about a year behind Wales in the development of their flush of talent. Both sides look desperately lacking in depth in certain positions.

In England, I'd say that SL lacks ambition in selecton by already standing by some players (like Ashton) is prone to back-fill with players out of position. And the centre pairing is wrong (as it is at half-back). Nothing wrong with any of the individuals. Just the pairings which need radical thought.

Mind you SL's choice of Andy Farrell as backs coach I always thought a disaster.

The evidence of progressively dire 6Ns performances is there for all to see.

Farrell is very highly rated outside the England set up. I have heard numerous former players and coaches say very good things about him. Though starting to hear mumblings that Lancaster has been Rob andrews lap dog at the RFU and thats why he got the job.

Have to agree that some of the selections are wrong.

maestegmafia wrote:Farrell is very highly rated outside the England set up. I have heard numerous former players and coaches say very good things about him. Though starting to hear mumblings that Lancaster has been Rob andrews lap dog at the RFU and thats why he got the job.

Have to agree that some of the selections are wrong.

Yeah - well maybe Squeaky should have been replaced by SCW and MJ should have been left in place maes.

Well I'm sure that having home grown coaches must help. I can't imagine having a bunch of foreign coaches is the best way to develop a national team. May be Ireland need to focus on growing coaches and let the coaches grow players.

True.

Arguably the IRB should set a training academy to organise central laws compliance and interpretations for referees as well.

I think that the provincial system allows for swift rebuild.

Munster lost Horan, Flannery, Hayes, Wallace, Leamy, Stringer etc over the last few years with the last shards of them (ROG and O'Connell) hanging on a bit.

But we have bounced back better than I would have thought with a new generation of Irish internationals - David Kilcoyne, Donnacha Ryan, Peter O'Mahony, Conor Murray, Keith Earls, Simon Zebo etc.

The Irish provincial sides and underage sides are looking very good actually.

Regarding Irish coaches, there's a lack of good ones. Perhaps because Ireland doesn't have a particularly strong tradition of playing good rugby does it? Kick the ball in the air, kick the opposition and give it a lash for 40 minutes sums up Ireland for much of their history (except for a few short eras of good rugby).

I think the provinces have recognized their duty as professional organizations to demand more than that, and bring in expertise from abroad to help develop a much better rugby philosophy. And where better to look than the nations with the most superior rugby cultures.

Hopefully the IRFU will do the same. The Kidney era has been a huge step back for Irish rugby after the advances in professionalism, fitness and tactics under Gatland and EOS.

But I've never understood why the nationality of the coaches is important? Or even relevant? The point somewhere above about the nationality of coaches being a problem really seems like complete nonsense to me. What's the logic there?

greytiger wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Farrell is very highly rated outside the England set up. I have heard numerous former players and coaches say very good things about him. Though starting to hear mumblings that Lancaster has been Rob andrews lap dog at the RFU and thats why he got the job.

Have to agree that some of the selections are wrong.

Yeah - well maybe Squeaky should have been replaced by SCW and MJ should have been left in place maes.

Must admit there have been some strange calls regarding appointing the England coaching team over the years, wasn't surprised to hear that Lancaster was Rob Andrews man. Andrew was one of the only people who opposed hiring Martin Johnson.

There is no Living and Dying - There is only Living well and enjoying the fruits and Struggling to live as you wait in hope for the next generation to feed you till you want no more

nganboy wrote:Well I'm sure that having home grown coaches must help. I can't imagine having a bunch of foreign coaches is the best way to develop a national team. May be Ireland need to focus on growing coaches and let the coaches grow players.

That's what we're doing by hiring SH coaches.... We still have to play International as we attend to the new Irish coach seedlings who are in their hothouse growbags. We can't just take 10 years off from International/Provincial duty as we wait for them to mature.

Well...maybe I'm wrong there.... we've taken the last four years off already.

SecretFly wrote:

nganboy wrote:Well I'm sure that having home grown coaches must help. I can't imagine having a bunch of foreign coaches is the best way to develop a national team. May be Ireland need to focus on growing coaches and let the coaches grow players.

That's what we're doing by hiring SH coaches.... We still have to play International as we attend to the new Irish coach seedlings who are in their hothouse growbags. We can't just take 10 years off from International/Provincial duty as we wait for them to mature.

Well...maybe I'm wrong there.... we've taken the last four years off already.

I don't see a problem with bringing foreign coaches in, the game is about players and the fans and not coaches. Couldn't give a monkey's where the coach is from as long as he is doing a great job.

The IRB have no restriction on the nationality of a coach, nor should they have. It's a free market and arguably it is better to have a non-Irish coach for Ireland as he will be dispassionately looking at the players with his head rather than his heart.

He'll be dispassionate for a while, Aukster (whoever he is) but all coaches form bonds (based on personal views of how rugby should be played and the players they think play it).

So my reason for a non-Irish coach wouldn't so much hope that he never has favourites - if he lasts long enough, he probably will - but simply for an external world view on the principles of rugby. Ireland have dogged themselves down into a stubborn place where despite all the evidence of good rugby principles running away from them in one direction, they keep stubbornly walking in a different direction.

We're being left behind and it's only the player's innate skills as individuals that are keeping us lolling around the One-Score-In-It purgatory of Almost-Won games.

I have to say I find it hilarious that a fan of Leicester Tigers, who might as well not have an academy they import so many foreigners talks about provinces signing a few South Africans.

Compare the provinces to Tigers, Saracens or Saints who have exponentionally more foreigners and still haven't won a HC in years. I'm going to bookmark this post so I can make an article regarding the number of Tigers players in the quarter final team against Toulon that have come through the Tigers academy. I think it will make interesting if not comical reading.

Will your

I'm going to bookmark this post so I can make an article regarding the number of Tigers players in the quarter final team

include all players that have received a Tigers' education Dodger?

It will include figures on how many of the Tigers starting 23 have come through the Leicester Tiger's academy and I will draw direct comparison's with the two provinces in the quarter finals (Ulster and Munster) and the number of players they have/haven't produced from their academies.

Cool. So long as it withstands inspection it'll be fine.
Education's a fine thing. A treasure to be lauded.

Will other acadamies be similarly appraised in the inspection?

To give you an idea of the sort of figures we are talking about...

The Leicester Tigers team in their last match against Exeter included just 6 players out of 23 that came through the Leicester Tigers academy.

That is absolutely shambolic and of all the top English clubs Tigers are easily the ones making the least contribution to the English national team.

Feel free to check my figures from the team sheet in this link. I think Tigers are a brilliant example of why England's fortunes have demised and looking at their academy why Tigers have demised themselves given the massive difficulty the club has in producing its own talent. The academy representation in their first team has got to be one of the lowest in European rugby. I look forward to the Tigers team for Toulon being named so I can make my post.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21849181

Artful_Dodger wrote:To give you an idea of the sort of figures we are talking about...

The Leicester Tigers team in their last match against Exeter included just 6 players out of 23 that came through the Leicester Tigers academy.

That is absolutely shambolic and of all the top English clubs Tigers are easily the ones making the least contribution to the English national team.

Feel free to check my figures from the team sheet in this link. I think Tigers are a brilliant example of why England's fortunes have demised and looking at their academy why Tigers have demised themselves given the massive difficulty the club has in producing its own talent. The academy representation in their first team has got to be one of the lowest in European rugby. I look forward to the Tigers team for Toulon being named so I can make my post.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21849181

That is not what we are regularly lead to believe from English Premiership fans on here... I am surprised that the number is as low as Six...? I thought Leicester were famed for having a very strong academy...

Tigers have had an incredibly weak academy for years maesteg. Other English clubs provide the backbone of their team.

Looking at the team that played against Exeter....Tait, Allen, Flood and Parling come from the Newcastle Falcons academy. Thompstone from London Irish academy. Morris from Leinster's academy, Slater from Nottingham .... etc.

They produce incredibly few of their own players but specialize in signing players that have come through other clubs academies.

Ironically their fans have the gall to talk about other team signing foreign players, when they are the masters of leeching from other teams.

The golden generation reached their peak years ago. Only the embers of the last generation are left now. I think the Irish rugby team has been mismanaged by Kidney. They left it far too late to make changes and they only made changes when forced.


Even though funds are tight now, Irish rugby has never been in a healthier state. The NEXT generation is coming now. A lot of the older players are being replaced by young players in their early twenties where before it was older players being replaced by players in their mid twenties.


At the next world cup Ireland will be competitive and the world cup after Ireland will have a team who are capable of beating anyone with plenty of depth in every area.

GunsGerms wrote:
2002 - Tuilagi (Samoa), Hamilton (Scotland), Murphy (Ireland), Kafer (Australia), plus a number of foreign subs.

Hate to be picky, but Jamie Hamilton the scrum half that day was/is English.

Quins have produced Marler, Gray, Robson, Robshaw, Turner-Hall, Lowe, Williams, Monye, Guest and Brown. All of whom regularly start for Quins as well as considerably adding to the abilities of Johnstone, Kohn, Easter and Care. Add to that the likes of Wallace and Clegg coming through and there's a very good system of producing English players.
There's also Wasps who've produced Wade and Launchbury amongst others, above it's claimed that foreigners shouldn't play in domestic leagues,
I think that if they're not adding to the quality of the league or their team then they are wasting a space (or three considering their normally on higher wages) that could be used by a young player qualified to play for the nation in which they play, examples of this are Atiga and Rees at Edinburgh however if they're actively improving the leagues such as Nick Evans at Quins or Strauss, Matawalu and Van de Merwe at Glasgow then it's different.
Also how do you think players from Fiji, Samoa, Tonga and Argentina will be competitive, the pacific Islanders don't have the player depth, money or population to host a fully professional league, I imagine that the population of Samoa will probably be similar to the amount of people employed by rugby teams in England. We live in a globalised world where ides and goods move around the planet, it is natural that rugby players will too, it means that ideas and traits are spread around allowing all nations to develop.

123456789 wrote:Quins have produced Marler, Gray, Robson, Robshaw, Turner-Hall, Lowe, Williams, Monye, Guest and Brown. All of whom regularly start for Quins as well as considerably adding to the abilities of Johnstone, Kohn, Easter and Care. Add to that the likes of Wallace and Clegg coming through and there's a very good system of producing English players.
There's also Wasps who've produced Wade and Launchbury amongst others, above it's claimed that foreigners shouldn't play in domestic leagues,
I think that if they're not adding to the quality of the league or their team then they are wasting a space (or three considering their normally on higher wages) that could be used by a young player qualified to play for the nation in which they play, examples of this are Atiga and Rees at Edinburgh however if they're actively improving the leagues such as Nick Evans at Quins or Strauss, Matawalu and Van de Merwe at Glasgow then it's different.
Also how do you think players from Fiji, Samoa, Tonga and Argentina will be competitive, the pacific Islanders don't have the player depth, money or population to host a fully professional league, I imagine that the population of Samoa will probably be similar to the amount of people employed by rugby teams in England. We live in a globalised world where ides and goods move around the planet, it is natural that rugby players will too, it means that ideas and traits are spread around allowing all nations to develop.

Yes and it is creating a situation where countries that don't have the Wealth of England and France's top clubs can't compete.

Imagine if the English and French teams in the HEC had a foreign player embargo placed on them as the Irish, Welsh and Scottish clubs do, and maybe a like minded wage cap of around £3 million.

That would certainly level the playing fields of Europe...

You know what, that is a great suggestion for the ERC for the Future comp.

It would pretty much kill Argentina and the PI teams though at international level.

As it is the starting XVs that Sarries, Tigers, and Quins put out in the HEC 1/4 finals are likely to consist of 37 EQP and 8 NEQ.

LondonTiger wrote:It would pretty much kill Argentina and the PI teams though at international level.

As it is the starting XVs that Sarries, Tigers, and Quins put out in the HEC 1/4 finals are likely to consist of 37 EQP and 8 NEQ.

I am saying only for HEC stuff... Keep the foreigners for home leagues.

Could a team like tigers, toulon or Saracens even put out a competitive XV if they were to adhere to the same constraints that the Ospreys do for all competitions?

Lower wage cap and very limited numbers of foreign players?

It would be interesting to see whether the Welsh regions were more competitive in Europe.

We don't want to see teams like the PI nations and Argentina suffer, would rather see them grow. But that is beside the point, this discussion is about the work academies do. In Wales I think the academies do a superb job providing talented young players for our regions and national sides. It is the foundation of our success at International level.

But we are like Argentina, the PI nations and the SH teams now, our best players want to play for more money in France or England.

LondonTiger wrote:It would pretty much kill Argentina and the PI teams though at international level.

As it is the starting XVs that Sarries, Tigers, and Quins put out in the HEC 1/4 finals are likely to consist of 37 EQP and 8 NEQ.

I would suggest that those 3 teams will have a hell of a lot more than 8 NEQ's in the QF's.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:It would pretty much kill Argentina and the PI teams though at international level.

As it is the starting XVs that Sarries, Tigers, and Quins put out in the HEC 1/4 finals are likely to consist of 37 EQP and 8 NEQ.

I would suggest that those 3 teams will have a hell of a lot more than 8 NEQ's in the QF's.

And by the sounds of it few academy products.

Tigers:
Ayerza (NEQ), Youngs, Cole, Slater, Parling, Croft, Salvi (NEQ), Crane
Youngs, Thompstone, Allen, Tuilagi, Morris (NEQ), Tait

3 NEQ - team that started against Exeter and will probably start against Toulon.

Quins:
Marler, Gray, Johnstone (NEQ), Matthews, Robson, Guest, Robshaw, Easter
Care, Evans (NEQ), Monye, JTH, Lowe, Williams, Brown

2 NEQ - Probable team to play Munster


Sarries:
Vunipola, Brits (NEQ), Stevens, Borthwick, Hargreaves (NEQ)/Kruis, Brown (NEQ), Fraser, Joubert
Wigglesworth, Farrell/Hodgson, Strettle, Barritt, Tomkins, Ashton, Goode.

3 NEQ (2 if Kruis Plays) - team likely to face Ulster.



As to budget - remember the PRL cap is for all players who play in the league not just HEC. Would you reduce the budget the Irish clubs operate under (accounting for the "tax dodge" 3 can operate?)

As the Ulster head honcho has publically stated the salary level at the 3 senior Irish provinces (including money from Dublin) is the same as the senior English clubs