How should England manage its new golden generation?

With a huge supply of academy graduates notably from Exeter, Irish, Newcastle, Leeds etc. along with the nation's front runners, it makes management of talent an enormous task.

How should the flood of talent best be manipulated?

I'd say (not for the first time) that regional senior academies providing compulsory student-appropriate academic courses should be enforced.

In that way, everyone will receive a fair and reasonable chance in life even if their rugby aspirations don't materialise.

Find it first maybe?

The mass of club academy products never see the light of day in the clubs' 1st XV, LT.

What I propose is that that elite pupils from the schools should be directed to the regional academy and their club registrations be retained.

If they fail to to make the grade, then the should at least have a decent qualification to fall back on.

Well it's a good question and perhaps THE question. Hasn't this always been England's challenge? England has by far the largest pool of registered players and a national tiered infrastrucure culminating in 12 fully professional teams. It might be argued that if England could manage this quantity of talent, England would always be at or near the very top of world rugby.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:The mass of club academy products never see the light of day in the clubs' 1st XV, LT.

What I propose is that that elite pupils from the schools should be directed to the regional academy and their club registrations be retained.

If they fail to to make the grade, then the should at least have a decent qualification to fall back on.

I agree absolutely. It might be a good idea to link the academies to universities, except that university Rugby tends to be a farce more concerned with drinking and socialising than actual rugby.

How should England manage its new golden generation?

Well, my advice would be not to copy the Irish golden generation, and actually use your golden generation to win some things

Right now we have a Generation game style conveyor belt, and once you are on it you stay on, but if you do not get on well forget about it.

It seems to me that if you are not in or around the England U16 set up your chances of playing for England are non-existant. We seem to forget that:

a) Players develop at different rates
b) body size plays an inordinate amount in success at junior level.


Centralising academies will make things worse.

I do agree though that academies and education (vocational as well as academic) should go hand in hand, and that players shoudl be looking at gaining a post playing career early on. It worries me that so many players now talk about their down time being devoted to X-box or PS3. Especially when they have a lot more down time than the rest of us.

didnt realise england had a new golden generation

Part of the problem England have is figuring out which of its talented youngsters to prioritise. Eventually you'll have to decide between Burns/Farrell, or Barritt/Twelvetrees etc.

A large part of it will be for the people at the top to set a cohesive vision or philosophy of what English Rugby should be, and get everyone to buy into it. Sadly, history suggests that this won't happen.

SecretFly wrote:How should England manage its new golden generation?

Well, my advice would be not to copy the Irish golden generation, and actually use your golden generation to win some things

The Irish experience was sort of in my mind, SF.

Obviously slapping a peeled Guinness 'Believe' slogan won't be enough for practical development.

I 'believe' that sustaining a long-term growth has to take into account both the losers as well as the winners in the personal lives of all the participants.

The phrase 'Golden Generation' should be banned.

I think you need to have a triple crown or 2 in the bag first to be classed as a real golden generation

Specifically, is there anything significantly lacking in the current well-established 14 Regional Academies, with their AASE programmes and links to local Universities and Colleges?

Rodders wrote:I think you need to have a triple crown or 2 in the bag first to be classed as a real golden generation

True.

Early doors yet, but I suspect that England won't be too pushed to equal Irish club/country performances over the past five-ten  years.

I confidently predict that English clubs will continue to win their domestic league for the forseeable.

The new golden generation has only just got off its potty.

But can they break the psychological grip the Welsh have on them ports?

The men from the valleys have always been seen as the yardstick in NH rugby.... our golden boys kept them quiet for a generation and the big challenge for lancasters barmy army is to do the same and put the dragon back in its cage....

rodders wrote:

The men from the valleys have always been seen as the yardstick in NH rugby.... our golden boys kept them quiet for a generation and the big challenge for lancasters barmy army is to do the same and put the dragon back in its cage....

Always is stretching it surely?

They're the top side in the NH now, and they had legendary sides in the 70s, but for most of my childhood they were terrible. England and France have been the sides to beat in recent times. Wales have really only come to the fore again since Gatland took over.

rodders wrote:But can they break the psychological grip the Welsh have on them ports?

The men from the valleys have always been seen as the yardstick in NH rugby.... our golden boys kept them quiet for a generation and the big challenge for lancasters barmy army is to do the same and put the dragon back in its cage....

Dragons have a cage?

Only dangerous beasts need one of those (Tigers f'rintance)  

Well on past history a Wales that starts believing in itself is guaranteed to come 4th in the 6N

But getting back to the point,

A regional academy system based on the traditional divisions (N, M, L&E and SW) centred on local unis and colleges to provide suitable education for the students would be welcome.

The divisional academy students could have a mini competition in the season to provide selectorial assistance to the development team coaches.

And no local club would lose their players' registration.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:But getting back to the point,

A regional academy system based on the traditional divisions (N, M, L&E and SW) based on local unis and colleges to provide suitable education for the students would be welcome.

The divisional academy students could have a mini competition in the season to provide selectorial assistance for the development team coaches.

And no local club would lose their players' registration.

If the academies are no longer attached to the premiership clubs you could hold a Draft, to ensure that youngsters got playing time, and that the Premiership was more competitive.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:But getting back to the point,

A regional academy system based on the traditional divisions (N, M, L&E and SW) centred on local unis and colleges to provide suitable education for the students would be welcome.

The divisional academy students could have a mini competition in the season to provide selectorial assistance to the development team coaches.

And no local club would lose their players' registration.

four regions to develop players. if only there was a blueprint for this???

mawhis wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:But getting back to the point,

A regional academy system based on the traditional divisions (N, M, L&E and SW) based on local unis and colleges to provide suitable education for the students would be welcome.

The divisional academy students could have a mini competition in the season to provide selectorial assistance for the development team coaches.

And no local club would lose their players' registration.

If the academies are no longer attached to the premiership clubs you could hold a Draft, to ensure that youngsters got playing time, and that the Premiership was more competitive.

read back mawhis,

My suggestion is that the clubs don't lose their players' registrations.

Do drafts work (US-style)?
I thought they were a form of pretend democratic bingo where all the prizes ultimately went to the big money players.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

mawhis wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:But getting back to the point,

A regional academy system based on the traditional divisions (N, M, L&E and SW) based on local unis and colleges to provide suitable education for the students would be welcome.

The divisional academy students could have a mini competition in the season to provide selectorial assistance for the development team coaches.

And no local club would lose their players' registration.

If the academies are no longer attached to the premiership clubs you could hold a Draft, to ensure that youngsters got playing time, and that the Premiership was more competitive.

read back mawhis,

My suggestion is that the clubs don't lose their players' registrations.

Do drafts work (US-style)?
I thought they were a form of pretend democratic bingo where all the prizes ultimately went to the big money players.

They seem to be pretty effective in the US. A draft would stop clubs stockpiling young talent on the bench by ensuring that those players went to clubs where they would be needed. As for money - the whole point of the process is to limit the advantages available to clubs with big bank balances, the process tends to reward teams that scout and plan effectively, and are intelligent enough to use the process to their advantage, rather than just the richest.

If the academies are run by universities, or centrally by the RFU, or by anyone else other than the clubs, then what's the point of academy players retaining their club registration, or even having a club registration at all? Let the clubs concentrate on the league, and the RFU and other bodies concentrate on bringing up the talent.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:But getting back to the point,

A regional academy system based on the traditional divisions (N, M, L&E and SW) centred on local unis and colleges to provide suitable education for the students would be welcome.

The divisional academy students could have a mini competition in the season to provide selectorial assistance to the development team coaches.

And no local club would lose their players' registration.

Why would it be welcome?

There are already 14 regional academies (defined by CB's), affiliated to professional rugby businesses and with close links to unis and colleges. There are AASE college competitions, a newly introduced Academy U18 league, and Divisional age-group festivals and competitions.

What is the advantage of reducing the number of academies from 14 to 4, except increasing the motorway miles of the academicians?

I haven't a clue if you've noticed this, mawhis, but the English league isn't based on franchises...

Plus clubs can't just stockpile players as there is a wage cap supposedly in operation.

My suggestion is that clubs should benefit rather than excluded from their discoveries.

dubya wrote:What is the advantage of reducing the number of academies from 14 to 4, except increasing the motorway miles of the academician

Back to top

I never said that.

What I suggested that top scholars should receive better education with (presumably) better coaches.

That's how edjercashun works innit?

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I haven't a clue if you've noticed this, mawhis,  but the English league isn't based on franchises...

Plus clubs can't just stockpile players as there is a wage cap supposedly in operation.

My suggestion is that clubs should benefit rather than excluded from their discoveries.

The strange thing is that, as much as british sports fans sneer at the Americans for their drafts, franchises etc, American sports are far better run than their british equivalents.

I'm a huge admirer of the way in which the NFL handles stuff like this, which may come across from time to time. Yes, it is run by rapacious venture capitalists with a habit of blackmailing their hosts cities out of millions of dollars for unnecessary stadiums, but ironically when it comes to running the actual sport they use a surprisingly socialist model which recognises that the league is only as strong as its weakest member. In England, by comparison, you have a darwinist system whereby the strongest clubs with the most inbuilt advantages, due to rich backers, good fanbase/location etc thrive, and the rest die out. If it continues we'll end up with 4-5 clubs in the midlands, 4-5 clubs in the west country and only a couple more to cover the entire rest of england. Thats good if you're a rugby fan in the midlands or the west, but it sucks if you are either a current or prospective rugby fan from elsewhere.

If clubs cannot stockpile players, then why is John Callard, the Saxons boss, complaining about the amount of game time that players get coming out of the under 20s? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21152993    . For Example, If Billy Twelvetrees hadn't left Welford road looking for more game time, much to the chagrin of Richard Cockerill, there's no way he'd have won the England Caps that he got this year, as he'd still be stuck behind Anthony Allen.

If there was a real effort to grow the game country wide, by incorporating some American ideas, then i think great things would happen. The current system puts too much emphasis on the needs of those clubs already at the top of the pile.

Stop the clubs signing 2nd rate saffers and kiwis and play the youngsters.
The situation is better than a few years ago(probably because of salary cap) but clubs are still signing some dross.
If clubs were forced to pick say 17-18 eq players with a minimum 9 home grown players I think it would be easier to identify the top players. Good coaches which we have plenty of also helps.
The problem we have is that alot of players struggle to get decent rugby from 20-23 because some clubs are afraid to pick them and let them develop naturally. This stifles development.
For example how good could the young hooker George at saracens be now if smit hadnt been signed.

.

Forgive my misunderstanding, but you seem to be proposing 4 divisional academies with the same qualities as the current 14 regional academies, except that non-rugby education/training (presumably post-18) becomes compulsory, instead of encouraged.

Unless you're proposing Divisional academies as an extra layer above the Regional ones, then I'm suggesting that you are suggesting a reduction in academies from 14 to 4.

Would such a reduction improve the education (both rugby and non-rugby) of the top scholars?

I'd contend that the upbringing of school age pupils would, in most instances, be best locally based, rather than, presumably, a boarding school. Horses for courses, though.

Post-school age, I reckon that mixing with professional players, playing A league, sometimes LV/Amlin, and DR with Championship or National League clubs, allied to professional coaching, provide the best rugby education, rather than a purely coaching hothouse.

Maybe I mean that the top-squad academies should be like a high level training college where personal non-rugby development is given a high priority in local, suitable educational establishments.

Each entrant (like the universities) would not be judged on age but ability and suitability.

This would not affect the existing academies - nor their claims on 'their' players whilst they are 'at uni'.

[ed] Divisional academy locations - something like Leeds (N), Loughborough (M), London (somewhere) (L&E), Bath (SW)

I'm understanding better, now, but what would that achieve?

Taking players, presumably aged 18 to 21 or thereabouts, out of a regular competitive rugby environment, just when they need that experience of adult rugby? Alternatively, the likes of Jack Nowell and Luke Cowan-Dickie would be faced with a 400 mile round trip from Bath to Penzance to play for their home club (and mid-week training with the Pirates would be problematic). Would the best coaching in the world make up for that?

The real issue, in my humble opinion is the overwhelming number of off shore players in clubs. If there are no positions for promising new talent to graduate into then those young stars will stagnate and find career paths elsewhere.

Only by addressing this issue, will the young English stars of tomorrow prosper.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:I'm understanding better, now, but what would that achieve?

Taking players, presumably aged 18 to 21 or thereabouts, out of a regular competitive rugby environment, just when they need that experience of adult rugby? Alternatively, the likes of Jack Nowell and Luke Cowan-Dickie would be faced with a 400 mile round trip from Bath to Penzance to play for their home club (and mid-week training with the Pirates would be problematic). Would the best coaching in the world make up for that?

Nobody said that these guys won't play, dubbya,

Just cos they're at uni it doesn't mean they can stay in bed.

They'd have calls from their own clubs and academies as well as inter-uni games plus (if they are lucky) the national age groups.

Not forgetting their academic assignments.

So, plenty of motorway miles to get a challenging game, and less likely to be selected for a club by being remote and not training regularly with team-mates.

Even if the coaching is top-notch, seems to me that this would only hinder progression.

And then, there's the carbon audit.....

Don't let the media hype them up too much and put pressure on them. It's destroyed a few of your what was potential stars in the past.

 

lostinwales wrote:Well on past history a Wales that starts believing in itself is guaranteed to come 4th in the 6N

We believed this year 30-3 - You forgetting that already

2015 World Cup winners, we already beat Nz Kiwis NewZealand Silver ferns, nobody else has.
#homeadvantage!
Also we have a Lancaster the guy is a genius.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:2015 World Cup winners, we already beat Nz Kiwis NewZealand Silver ferns, nobody else has.
#homeadvantage!
Also we have a Lancaster the guy is a genius.

 

Yes Lancaster is a very good thing for english rugby. Make no bones because of one bad result v wales..

He came back fighting with some dominant wins away.. All the before was good.

I am happier with him than I would be as a welsh fan with gatland.. I would think the whole lions thing is a bit of a joke tbh.. especially when the welsh team get tonked by japan(yep thats right japan!!)

      

Better than Martin Johnson? - Yes

Very Good for English Rugby? - Remains to be seen. He's been up and down so far, and I'm not convinced 100% that he's got the gameplan or selection right yet.

Genius - No.

At what point did this thread morph into yet another discussion of the relative merits of Mr Lancaster?

When you write a rather abstract post - it will of course go into areas you least expect.

Lancaster is not a genius that is pretty clear. I cant think of a rugby player that is one..

Anyway. good coach- yeah!

England are within 4 pts of all the sh teams. We are to play them all soon. If we can take them out and then take out wales in the 6N's we will be the best in the world again.. The ten years of hurt will be over

HAIL ENGLAND>

SWEET CHARIOT

10 YEARS OF HURT.

How should England manage its golden generationa??

Well a start would be:

1) Picking players in their right position
2) Picking form players
3) Not dumping players after one bad game
4) Not dumping players who show a bit of individualism and skill, but make a few mistakes because of that...
5) That management can remember defence is critical...BUT NOT the be all and end all...

How have Wales come into a thread about Englands next generation of players ?

 

LordDowlais wrote:How have Wales come into a thread about Englands next generation of players ?

GeordieFalcon wrote:How should England manage its golden generationa??

Well a start would be:

1) Picking players in their right position
2) Picking form players
3) Not dumping players after one bad game
4) Not dumping players who show a bit of individualism  and skill, but make a few mistakes because of that...
5) That management can remember defence is critical...BUT NOT the be all and end all...

I agree with points 1&5, GF

But points 2,3 & 4 have certain degrees of mutual exclusivity between them.