Living and dying with a golden generation

First topic message reminder :

I wondered if any Irish posters could pass on some helpful tips to us English and Welsh.

Regarding those NEQ qualified figures, how many learnt there trade at the club itself?

By way of comparison Ulster will have 3 NIQ players in their 23 this weekend + 1 Project - will be qualified fir 2014-15

There will be 15 /16 who were developed within the Ulster set up.

I think the point was actually more about academies and this thread is distracting into a foreign import debate rather than a debate on clubs importing from other national teams academies.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Tigers have had an incredibly weak academy for years maesteg. Other English clubs provide the backbone of their team.

Looking at the team that played against Exeter....Tait, Allen, Flood and Parling come from the Newcastle Falcons academy. Thompstone from London Irish academy. Morris from Leinster's academy, Slater from Nottingham .... etc.

They produce incredibly few of their own players but specialize in signing players that have come through other clubs academies.

Ironically their fans have the gall to talk about other team signing foreign players, when they are the masters of leeching from other teams.

Compare that example to Ospreys

These guys played last week and are all academy players. You might recognise a few names.

Tom Habberfield, Jonathan Spratt, Ashley Beck, Thomas Isaacs, Dan Biggar, Ryan Bevington, Richard Hibbard, Alun-Wyn Jones, Ian Evans, James King, Justin Tipuric, Scott Baldwin, Lloyd Peers, Rhys Webb, Matthew Morgan, Ben John

Ulster for this weekend...

N McComb, C Black, R Best, R Diack, C Henry, D Tuohy, R Herring, K McCall, R Lutton, T Court, I Henderson, R Wilson, J Payne, C Gilroy, P Marshall, P Nelson, M Heaney, P Jackson, S Olding, D Cave, A Trimble

If you want to sustain a decent level of consistency at international level, then the academy system has to work for you.

There are a number of academies in England maes.
And they are not just in the Premier division.
Schooling rugby players in the country is not a particular problem although I'd like to see a top tier of divisional elite academies organised and run by the RFU to co-ordinate the flow of talent and promote a further rounded education and identify particular skill-sets.

I fear that some of the current academies emphasise gym-monkey attitudes.

Artful_Dodger wrote:I have to say I find it hilarious that a fan of Leicester Tigers, who might as well not have an academy they import so many foreigners talks about provinces signing a few South Africans.

Compare the provinces to Tigers, Saracens or Saints who have exponentionally more foreigners and still haven't won a HC in years. I'm going to bookmark this post so I can make an article regarding the number of Tigers players in the quarter final team against Toulon that have come through the Tigers academy. I think it will make interesting if not comical reading.

thats a fine point. greytiger portnoy clearly does not have a clue about irish stuctures

I'm happy to sacrifice regional success for international success - A 1/4 final HC appearance would be a realistic barometer for our regions. However, we continue to develop and expose young players to a decent level at the regions and this continues to pay dividends at international level.

In the long run it may even m,ake the regions more competitive in the HC but for now I can see the picture and I have no complaints as it continues to develop talent for Wales over and above what might realistically be expected

RubyGuby wrote:I'm happy to sacrifice regional success for international success - A 1/4 final HC appearance would be a realistic barometer for our regions. However, we continue to develop and expose young players to a decent level at the regions and this continues to pay dividends at international level.

In the long run it may even m,ake the regions more competitive in the HC but for now I can see the picture and I have no complaints as it continues to develop talent for Wales over and above what might realistically be expected

It is tough, would we be a better international team if our regions were strengthened by overseas players? I don't think so. But we need our regional players to be in a more competitive environment below international level.

The only way to improve the regions chances is for us to keep improving the academies and the players. This will also strengthen the depth and quality in the Welsh Premiership.

Unfortunately our top talent is been bought away from Wales to early. clubs are after Faletau and North, both only in their third senior season. We need our players to stay in Wales longer than that.

Talent moving abroad is not all bad news. For example, if J Roberts and casey laulala were still at the blues then we may never see someone like corry allen get their chance at regional level.

This is essentially what has happened in Ireland where Darcy and Odriscoll have blocked the pathway at Leinster for aspiring talent for 10 years leaving declan kidney short of options at international level.

If Faletau leaves along with Lydiate then Ieuan Jones the under20 number8 will get his opportunity. Players leaving makes success at regional level almost impossible to achieve but it does give wales a depth of talent that Ireland can only dream of.

Scrumdown wrote:Talent moving abroad is not all bad news. For example, if J Roberts and casey laulala were still at the blues then we may never see someone like corry allen get their chance at regional level.

This is essentially what has happened in Ireland where Darcy and Odriscoll have blocked the pathway at Leinster for aspiring talent for 10 years leaving declan kidney short of options at international level.

If Faletau leaves along with Lydiate then Ieuan Jones the under20 number8 will get his opportunity. Players leaving makes success at regional level almost impossible to achieve but it does give wales a depth of talent that Ireland can only dream of.

It does and those players are doing well, but i cant see our regions being able to compete in Europe against the teams that are buying our established top talent. If they do, they will lose those players to foreign clubs in the next year or too.

Scrumdown's theme keeps hitting the fan...right, left and centre.

He says Welsh players leaving Wales gives Regions a chance to unearth new players...and then he says players leaving makes those regional sides weaker by definition.

A depth of talent should be able to prove itself in all theatres.. International AND regional. Saying the young guys weaken Regional but strengthen National is shifty reasoning.

Meanwhile, back at Leinster. Does Scrum watch Pro12 rugby? He doesn't see young players taking up the strain whenever the 'old' Internationals are out? He doesn't see all Irish Provinces use more players than the two he mentions as holding back Ireland!!! He doesn't see Leinster and Ulster at the top of the Pro12 table with the help of their young talent?

Ireland's problem is neither D'arcy or O'Driscoll or a lack of strength in depth (Scrum's repeating theme)..but the coach who kept picking players who weren't performing until he was forced to start picking under pressure of injuries.
The coach has been stale, not the players waiting for their time. The coaching tactic of keeping stalewart players on the field for 80 is the weakness. The coaching tactic of playing a stale brand of rugby is the weakness. The coach is the weakness. New coach and we'll be back.... keep the seat warm for us

Fly its kind of a catch 22. I think its one ireland are going to fall in to as well.

You guys are only going to be able to hold on to your star players for so long. Sexton is off, so is Ferris, thats how it started in Wales and it gets more and younger every year.

They poached Stephen Shingler strait out of the academy, North is still only 20 years old and he's off.

Our regions will suffer no matter what we do as the nation doesn't have the economy to compete with England and France.

Mind you neither does anyone else bar Japan.

SecretFly wrote:Scrumdown's theme keeps hitting the fan...right, left and centre.

He says Welsh players leaving Wales gives Regions a chance to unearth new players...and then he says players leaving makes those regional sides weaker by definition.

A depth of talent should be able to prove itself in all theatres.. International AND regional. Saying the young guys weaken Regional but strengthen National is shifty reasoning.

Meanwhile, back at Leinster. Does Scrum watch Pro12 rugby? He doesn't see young players taking up the strain whenever the 'old' Internationals are out? He doesn't see all Irish Provinces use more players than the two he mentions as holding back Ireland!!! He doesn't see Leinster and Ulster at the top of the Pro12 table with the help of their young talent?

Ireland's problem is neither D'arcy or O'Driscoll or a lack of strength in depth (Scrum's repeating theme)..but the coach who kept picking players who weren't performing until he was forced to start picking under pressure of injuries.
The coach has been stale, not the players waiting for their time. The coaching tactic of keeping stalewart players on the field for 80 is the weakness. The coaching tactic of playing a stale brand of rugby is the weakness. The coach is the weakness. New coach and we'll be back.... keep the seat warm for us

Let me explain then.

The loss of a player such as J Roberts will weaken the Cardiff Blues in the short term and strengthen a club such as Racing Metro who cardiff may be in the same heineken cup pool as next season making it even less likely that the region will progress in europe.

However, it also means that corry allen will get his chance next year. He is not the finished article but he will be playing regularly in the top european games and not just 'taking up the strain' when the internationals are away as you admit is the case with young irish players. He will be in at the deep end, developing, learning from his mistakes and getting better with each game.

In Ireland, Madigan who seems to be the heir apparent to sexton is already 24 and hardly ever starts a heineken cup game. Biggar is a year younger and with hook off in France is already an established international. Hook and Biggar are now genuine options for howley giving wales genuine strength in depth at international level whereas Sexton is the only proven 10 kidney has at his disposal. Is Kidney really to blame for this?

Kidney selecting Madigan at 10 is a bit like Howley selecting mathew morgan the ospreys 10 when biggar is away. Morgan (who is 20) just like madigan is talented but raw because he doesn't play in the big european games. He only starts when biggar is away or being rested.

Yet irish supporters seem to be under the impression that Kidney should have faith in players who the provincial coaches such as jon schmidt do not trust in the big heineken cup games. You won't here welsh supporters pleading with howley to select Mathew Morgan even though he is an exciting prospect.

Jon schmidt may picks a number of young players in certain pro12 games but they never seem to progress to becoming 1st team regulars and therein lies the problem for Kidney and the national team.

Scrumdown wrote:

Let me explain then.

The loss of a player such as J Roberts will weaken the Cardiff Blues in the short term and strengthen a club such as Racing Metro who cardiff may be in the same heineken cup pool as next season making it even less likely that the region will progress in europe.

However, it also means that corry allen will get his chance next year. He is not the finished article but he will be playing regularly in the top european games and not just 'taking up the strain' when the internationals are away as you admit is the case with young irish players. He will be in at the deep end, developing, learning from his mistakes and getting better with each game.

In Ireland, Madigan who seems to be the heir apparent to sexton is already 24 and hardly ever starts a heineken cup game. Biggar is a year younger and with hook off in France is already an established international. Hook and Biggar are now genuine options for howley giving wales genuine strength in depth at international level whereas Sexton is the only proven 10 kidney has at his disposal. Is Kidney really to blame for this?

Kidney selecting Madigan at 10 is a bit like Howley selecting mathew morgan the ospreys 10 when biggar is away. Morgan (who is 20) just like madigan is talented but raw because he doesn't play in the big european games. He only starts when biggar is away or being rested.

Yet irish supporters seem to be under the impression that Kidney should have faith in players who the provincial coaches such as jon schmidt do not trust in the big heineken cup games. You won't here welsh supporters pleading with howley to select Mathew Morgan even though he is an exciting prospect.

Jon schmidt may picks a number of young players in certain pro12 games but they never seem to progress to becoming 1st team regulars and therein lies the problem for Kidney and the national team.

Like I said the first time...enjoy the ride of success whilst it lasts and keep the seat warm way up there in high altitude sickness 5th place in the world rankings.

Now, let me explain.

In at the "deep end, developing, learning from mistakes and getting better with each game" is more than talk..it'll demand proof. Playing in a triple HEC winning side is more than talk. So let's see how far your talk will improve Corry Allen. Meanwhile, Madigan is already on his way. He's made cameos in two HEC finals already...but you weren't looking of course. And yeah, his weakness is that he's an old man in comparison to Corry, what with him being all of a year older than Biggar (the new young hope for Wales International)...go figure...

But forgive Leinster too for setting out to actually win big competitions rather than just taking part - that's their duty, not to kick their own aspirations into the dirt by giving a whole host of young boys the HEC play-off stages to 'develop and learn from their mistakes.' They'll come through when Leinster coaches decide, not when Kidney decides. Kidney was/is in charge of Ireland, that's his badly run show. He has done that all by himself. Nobody else to blame.


Meanwhile too...Ireland, playing shyte rugby (as your readings of our player 'depth' keep letting us all know) and under a long underperforming coach, is the team that kept Wales to four wins in this year's 6N, and they did that job in one half. They were also the second highest try scorers in last year's AIs, second only to ABs. They were also the highest try scorers in last year's 6N...when Wales were winning another Slam. That's Ireland playing terrible rugby, acknowledged by virtually every Irish follower for four years in a row now.

So yeah, second last in the 6N is a lovely place to be - we're in good company this year of course - wine cheese and beer all round ... but you'll understand if I don't go slit my wrists at all the gloom you paint for us. No, I'll just wait a for a new coaching unit to take over, chew on my cigar and paraphrase Arnie's line: "We'll be back"

Fly how concerned are you with Irish players starting to go abroad more now?

maestegmafia wrote:Fly how concerned are you with Irish players starting to go abroad more now?

I'd be concerned if it became an epidemic, Maesteg. Of course I would. We're a small Nation and despite what many say to us, rugby still is below the levels of popularity enjoyed by other games here. So it's always a struggle to interest athletes in rugby when GAA draws on the emotional heartstrings so much. But we can still have a level of comfort if only a certain few trickle away. If it became a tide then of course it would endanger the very existence and certainly the continuing growth of rugby in this country.

So, yeah, I'd be concerned maesteg. But that's where strong attitudes at IRFU level would help and I have a feeling that they aren't dumb and are keeping a close eye on player behaviors and thinking about what their responses will be if it becomes a tide of departures.

The strongest weapon any Union has in keeping players at home is International places. There is one idea which states that high ranking players going away and coming home for Internationals is good all round. Good experience for them, good that they bring home better honed skills. And then you have another opinion (mine) which says that giving maximum priority to home based players is the key to keeping player's motivations honest.

If they want money that Provinces or even Unions can't live with then fine - the gate is there and no hard feelings. But they should be told that going will send their position at International back into the mix of players playing for Provinces. They should be informed that they will be called on as cover if they play outside the country but won't necessarily remain first choice.

I've already said Madigan or Jackson should now be given first slot at 10 for Ireland. They should be given priority as their presence benefits Irish rugby in a twofold way rather than a guy like Sexton who will now benefit a foreign side and perhaps impede Irish sides at HEC level.

Of course too though, with academies working in the background, there will not be enough places for every young ambitious player coming through. I'm not against players, young or old, leaving. That's their right and their freedom. But I do say a strict business model would challenge them to go for the right reasons.

If they go, they forfeit their expectancy of first choice positions at International level. That would be just business, that would be just the IRFU protecting its investments in International AND Provincial rugby. Players would then be able to ask themselves which is more important - playing for a big paycheck or playing for their country. They'd be free to decide.

I think there is a desire to earn money - we all like earning what we think we're worth - but I also think there is a genuine lure still to play for your Nation - and it continues to be where you make your biggest reputation. Strong tactics to challenge player's ideals might help stop some of the departures.

I think your thoughts some up how I felt a few years ago, now I see players moving abroad as an unavoidable and forgone conclusion and I am glad that the WRU and Regions accept that there is very little we can do about it.

Unfortunately far too many welsh fans, the media and the occasional Regional DR might shout out that they believe the situation is different, it isn't we have to make the best of it. For once the WRU and Welsh rugby are thinking ahead in stead of in the past.

The culture is different in every country but considering that the WRU tried to keep players in Wales with the threat of their International places being at risk and the players agents told the WRU that they would see them in the European court the WRU backed down a notch or two.

To be fair I think realistically of our overseas players, the only one that we really need is Mike Phillips. He is the only consistent player that we couldn't replace quickly enough with out too much detriment to the team.

Players agents sold the stories of release clauses, none of which really exist, they might but they are at the whim of a club owner in France or the PRL in England.

Our way out is to work harder, we lost so much rugby in Wales over the last forty years, we didn't continue to nurture it, we were distracted by politics and unemployment and didn't notice that the kids weren't running around in the street pretending to be Jonathon Davies or Ieuan Evans.

Now we have a generation of under tens who only know Wales as a team that win Grand Slams every other year, that retain the Six nations, that might finally get a positive points card against a SH team. These youngsters are rugby mad. They are the future of our game. We just have to do enough to keep the country interested long enough until they can take over.

By the time they are playing the game we wont have debts, we will have a system from school to college and on to club, Regional and International level. Old Wales will be old films of Grandads team of the seventies, but we will have kids playing rugby in the streets again and Wales will be great like we once were.

Secret fly,

Leinster have been winning the heineken cup by effectively selecting the Ireland team plus world class foreign players against club teams. Last year, with Brad Thorn and Ica Nacewa in their team, Leinster had a stronger first xv than Ireland.

The majority of Ireland's tries in the AIs were scored against a second string Fiji team.

Biggar is not the young welsh hope. He's already arrived. Instead of glorifying in Madigan's cameo appearances in the heineken cup irish fans need to get real.

The provincial system has neglected the development of irish players in favour of foreign imports and immediate success in the heineken cup.

It is rather pitiful watching Ulster dominating opposition scrums with Afoa at tight head whilst Kidney has to make do with the inferior Ross. Pieenar orchestrates matters for Ulster whilst Kidney has to make do with P Jackson.

The scenario is the exact opposite for Wales, where foreign based players strengthen the pool of players available to Howley.

Scrumdown wrote:It is rather pitiful watching Ulster dominating opposition scrums with Afoa at tight head whilst Kidney has to make do with the inferior Ross. Pieenar orchestrates matters for Ulster whilst Kidney has to make do with P Jackson.

For the uninitiated, Pienaar is a scrumhalf who plays alongside outhalf Jackson at Ulster. Again for those who don't know, Sexton is the man who orchestrates matters for Ireland.

Wales is such an interesting subject I think. They're producing tons of fantastic players who seem to be getting plenty of rugby at regional level but then being poached by overseas teams. The result being weakened regions, at least until new stars are nurtured.

But nurtured they are it seems. I know a lot fans are concerned about the player drain, but if it just means more players getting rugby at a decent level then maybe it's a good thing for the national team? (I know plenty would put region above national team of course)

A lot of players have gone to France where the criticism is the game is slower. And players like Jenkins seem to have gone backwards by languishing on the benches of all-star squads. BUT - plenty of others seem to have benefitted from playing against these all-star squads. The game may be slower but it's physical and not short on skill.

It'll be fascinating to see how it plays out in the long-run. Will getting more Welsh players into top 14 teams and Prem teams free up space for even more youngsters meaning weaker regions but ultimately a strong national team? Or will weak regions mean declining support/interest in rugby and a lower claibre of youngster coming through.

The thing is that at some point they'll be a relative dearth of good youngsters, there always is a bit of a cycle. When that happens plenty of people will be lining up to tell the WRU I told you so and you've wasted a golden generation. But that may not be fair.

I guess time will tell. At the moment, weak regions seem to be working out just fine for the national team!

The Great Aukster wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:It is rather pitiful watching Ulster dominating opposition scrums with Afoa at tight head whilst Kidney has to make do with the inferior Ross. Pieenar orchestrates matters for Ulster whilst Kidney has to make do with P Jackson.

For the uninitiated, Pienaar is a scrumhalf who plays alongside outhalf Jackson at Ulster. Again for those who don't know, Sexton is the man who orchestrates matters for Ireland.

For those in denial, Jackson is a passenger at Ulster and without Pieenar, Ulster would lack control at halfback, just as Ireland did whilst sexton was injured for the majority of the six nations.

Scrumdown wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:It is rather pitiful watching Ulster dominating opposition scrums with Afoa at tight head whilst Kidney has to make do with the inferior Ross. Pieenar orchestrates matters for Ulster whilst Kidney has to make do with P Jackson.

For the uninitiated, Pienaar is a scrumhalf who plays alongside outhalf Jackson at Ulster. Again for those who don't know, Sexton is the man who orchestrates matters for Ireland.

For those in denial, Jackson is a passenger at Ulster and without Pieenar, Ulster would lack control at halfback, just as Ireland did whilst sexton was injured for the majority of the six nations.

Pie aar hasn't been making a great impression while Jackson has been absent. Maybe they need each other more than you give credit.

Also their scrum half Marshall looks very handy. I am surprised he hasn't been given the reins more often.

Scrumdown your posts on this thread are filled with so many inaccuracies and falsehoods that I don't even no where to start. All I'll say is you shouldn't form such strongly held opinions about things you know absolutely nothing about.

Both sides make good points. I think it should be about getting the balance right. At the moment Wales are far ahead in developing players while Irish provinces are ahead in terms of success and money earned.


In the medium to short term Wales are going to develop more players but while Ireland are stuck in many positions. While thats happening though the provinces are pumping money into youths and schools rugby and improving coaching at all levels. While it doesn't have many benefits of this in the medium or short term I think long term it will be a success. Actually that process has been underway for years now and we'll soon (3 or 4 seasons) see better quality coming through.


Irish rugby is now starting to limit NIQ players. According to Ulster poster Geoff the provinces have been told the IRFU want 3 or maximum 4 NIQ players per squad in one or two years. That will give young players an opportunity to push for a starting place as currently there is a road block for them.


If I was French I would worry about the medium term future. The T14 is choc-a-block with foreign players and the clubs have no intention of easing up on this. France had a dreadful 6 nations but more worryingly for them is their U20 team were shocking. English clubs have the right balance BUT when this BT money comes in, success will be demanded so they're going to start signing more foreign players. The Rabo teams might have Sky money to ease th pressure but I can see the trend of English/French signing Celts and southern hemisphere players to continue.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Scrumdown your posts on this thread are filled with so many inaccuracies and falsehoods that I don't even no where to start. All I'll say is you shouldn't form such strongly held opinions about things you know absolutely nothing about.

I am happy to be persuaded otherwise but I don't think a change of coach will make that much of a difference, just as Howley taking over from Gatland made no difference for Wales.

Scrumdown wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Scrumdown your posts on this thread are filled with so many inaccuracies and falsehoods that I don't even no where to start. All I'll say is you shouldn't form such strongly held opinions about things you know absolutely nothing about.

I am happy to be persuaded otherwise but I don't think a change of coach will make that much of a difference, just as Howley taking over from Gatland made no difference for Wales.

Thats because Howley is following Gatlands blueprint. He has Edwards by his side to help him along.

Coaches make a massive difference. Look at the 6 nations. Kidney can't do anything about the lack of tighthead props but he selected a young Paddy Jackson over Ian Madigan. There were other dodgy calls too.

Not only team selection but team tactics is massive too. Against England in the rain Ireland played right into Englands hands. The English played the conditions better and won comfortably. A top coach would have prepared for this.

You also have motivation. A good motivator is essential.

To sum it up, Kidney was unable to get the best out of the players he had.

Kidney's record against Gatland/Howley is actually a good one, having had victories in 2009, 2010 and 2013.

A proven coach is unfortunately being slandered by irish rugby supporters who quite frankly should show some respect for a coach who guided Ireland to only their second grand slam in history and prior to that won two heineken cups with Munster.

Choosing jackson over madigan was probably the right call when you consider that madigan is reserve 10 at leinster whilst Jackson is 1st choice at Ulster.

Irish rugby supporters are now rivalling new zealnders as the most arrogant in the game, but without the success or history to back it up.

Scrumdown wrote:
Irish rugby supporters are now rivalling new zealnders as the most arrogant in the game, but without the success or history to back it up.

We have success at HEC level. No history but whats that got to do with anything.

Profitius, you know the way Ireland constantly aimlessly box kick possession away, and they don't support or offload? Well what scrumdown is saying is that they're brilliant tactics from Kidney and that the Irish players are just useless.

What he's saying is Leinster won three HC's with constant aimless kicking, poor chasing, not passing, and not supporting or offloading. But the only reason they won the HC's is because Brad Thorn and Nacewa always catch the box kicks and between the two of them score all Leinsters tries.

And we're arrogant for believing Ireland playing such clueless rugby has anything to do with the coaching. I think.

It's amazing that there are Welsh and English (and I think one Scot) coaches and management involved with the Lions; but not a single member of the Irish coaching team was asked to come along. Probably because their tactics are to intricate and advanced for the British players.

Talk about the 70's!

Feckless Rogue wrote:Profitius, you know the way Ireland constantly aimlessly box kick possession away, and they don't support or offload? Well what scrumdown is saying is that they're brilliant tactics from Kidney and that the Irish players are just useless.

What he's saying is Leinster won three HC's with constant aimless kicking, poor chasing, not passing, and not supporting or offloading. But the only reason they won the HC's is because Brad Thorn and Nacewa always catch the box kicks and between the two of them score all Leinsters tries.

And we're arrogant for believing Ireland playing such clueless rugby has anything to do with the coaching. I think.

It's amazing that there are Welsh and English (and I think one Scot) coaches and management involved with the Lions; but not a single member of the Irish coaching team was asked to come along. Probably because their tactics are to intricate and advanced for the British players.

It is one thing jon schmidt coaching what is effectively the Ireland team plus a few expensive foreign players to a heineken cup win by beating club sides, quite another for kidney to use the same group of players minus the foreign stars to achieve victories at international level.

You seem to ignore the fact that under Kidney Munster were the most feared side in Europe and gave the Ospreys the mother of all beatings in the heineken cup quarter finals in 2008, a team which Leinster, under Schmidt have failed to master. International rugby is a step up from heineken cup rugby and it is a step up that Leinster disguised as Ireland fail to make.

Scrumdown wrote:You seem to ignore the fact that under Kidney Munster were the most feared side in Europe and gave the Ospreys the mother of all beatings in the heineken cup quarter finals in 2008, a team which Leinster, under Schmidt have failed to master. International rugby is a step up from heineken cup rugby and it is a step up that Leinster disguised as Ireland fail to make.

43-9 is the mother of all beatings?

Hell we beat Munster 30-15 this season and 45-10 last season, but we didn't call that the "mother of all beatings".

Shows how far munster have regressed since kidney left.

Yes, Italy and Scotland are clearly far superior to Clermont or Toulouse. We should be thankful to Kidney that we got within 7 points of the mighty Italians. Especially without Brad Thorn. And the style with which we keep booting that ball to the opposition and fail to contest it. And the flair with which we trundle from contact to contact and pass less than anyone else. It's inspiring. In fact I think Schmidt should adopt Kidney's awesome tactical game that bamboozles opposition despite having players that are useless. Then Leinster would be unstoppable.

Maybe the next coach will show how bad Kidney was.

profitius wrote:Maybe the next coach will show how bad Kidney was.

Just like Rob Penney is at Munster you mean.

Scrumdown wrote:

profitius wrote:Maybe the next coach will show how bad Kidney was.

Just like Rob Penney is at Munster you mean.

Kidney left Munster in 2008. Since then the likes of Flannery, Wallace, Leamy, Hayes etc have left. Its a different team now.

Send Scrumdown over Kidney inside an Easter Egg Seems everyone likes him but us Irish...until you ask them would they take him off our hands.

"Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....what now? - Like now? - Like we haven't hoovered or nothing. The place is in a state. Like, where would he sleep? We can't just take him like straight away. We meant like we...like...well, you know, like we'd have him if.... there's nothing wrong with him. Why can't yous just keep him yourselves?"

SecretFly wrote:Send Scrumdown over Kidney inside an Easter Egg Seems everyone likes him but us Irish...until you ask them would they take him off our hands.

"Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....what now? - Like now? - Like we haven't hoovered or nothing. The place is in a state. Like, where would he sleep? We can't just take him like straight away. We meant like we...like...well, you know, like we'd have him if.... there's nothing wrong with him. Why can't yous just keep him yourselves?"

They're going to be a massive scramble to try and sign Kidney when he leaves his Ireland job. Clubs from around the world are lining him up as we speak with the WRU being first in line just like they were all queuing to sign Eddie O'Sullivan.

Only once in their last nine games have Ireland had a better second half than their first, and that indicates a coaching team who are consistently out-thought by their opponents.

There is no point in logical arguments scrumdown. Those on here who want to see the back of kidney are now happy. However they do not see that we do not have the likes of BOD , Woods , POC or ROG coming through the ranks. Even the much maligned Darcy is a better player now than any of the other possibilities not to mind saying how good he was four years ago.

We now have a lot of decent players but that's about it. For example Heaslip is a good player but isn't a scratch on Anthony Foley. Where is the next David Wallace, Paul Wallace, Ferris or BOD. They do not exist...good luck to the next coach..he will need it

DOD wrote:Where is the next David Wallace, Paul Wallace, Ferris or BOD. They do not exist...good luck to the next coach..he will need it

They're somewhere in the four Provinces...and possibly one or two outside, DOD.

But you're right, they'll look nothing like David Wallace, Ferris or BOD.

Your opinion that the 'Golden Age' is over and whatever coach gets chosen ain't going to find a group of players who will function sufficiently at International is very similar to the football guys who keep telling the media that Trappatoni isn't to blame for Republic of Ireland, as he too doesn't have the Golden Generation of Jack's era to choose from.

I say neither the Golden football nor rugby generation exactly set the world on fire even when in their prime. That's the truth for each. I lived through both and enjoyed the trip immensely but their achievements can be repeated. For sure they can.

No, the next bright thing in rugby won't look like O'Driscoll and he probably won't even play in the same position (though some think it the GOD position for some strange reason). But we'll have players we raise high again in our affections, and we'll have players who do the business at International; and we'll drag ourselves back higher than ninth.

Nobody says we'll ever be a familiar face in the top three...but four, five or six? - if we don't think sustaining that area is doable then lets stop playing rugby in Ireland completely. Why waste money being happy with 9th?

Aren't they more of a bronze or silver generation

RubyGuby wrote:Aren't they more of a bronze or silver generation

Yes...with one Golden Child for seasoning.

Even the golden child is losing some of that gold leaf I think

He was of a 'Generation'...

Nobody said he was an immortal God...that was just a joke us Irish made up, Ruby... Be careful of us Irish and words..... besides he's almost old enough now to become a young pundit!!!! And God help us all if that's the next step.

Please pick a better retirement job than that, God!!! ...ahem, I mean BOD.

SecretFly wrote:He was of a 'Generation'...

Nobody said he was an immortal God...that was just a joke us Irish made up, Ruby... Be careful of us Irish and words..... besides he's almost old enough now to become a young pundit!!!! And God help us all if that's the next step.

Please pick a better retirement job than that, God!!! ...ahem, I mean BOD.

BOD was at his best in a Leinster shirt. Never quite delivered, at international level at least not in the way Shane Willams consistently delivered for wales up until the day he retired at 34.

Scrumdown wrote:

SecretFly wrote:He was of a 'Generation'...

Nobody said he was an immortal God...that was just a joke us Irish made up, Ruby... Be careful of us Irish and words..... besides he's almost old enough now to become a young pundit!!!! And God help us all if that's the next step.

Please pick a better retirement job than that, God!!! ...ahem, I mean BOD.

BOD was at his best in a Leinster shirt. Never quite delivered, at international level at least not in the way Shane Willams consistently delivered for wales up until the day he retired at 34.

Never quite delivered at international level? Your posts get more and more comical everytime scrum down. You realize Brian O'Driscoll has scored 47 international trys from outside centre. He has scored more than any Irish winger ever has which includes players like Tommy Bowe, Tony O'Reilly and Denis Hickie. O'Driscoll is 7th on the all time highest try scorers list in international rugby from outside centre and ALL of those above him are international wingers. Not to mention being a grand slam winning captain, heineken cup winning captain, captian of the British and Irish Lions and has 125 international caps.

Never quite delivered on the international stage!? Seriously mate go and get a clue about rugby before you post on here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_leading_Rugby_union_Test_try_scorers

As I said above 7th on the list with the 6 above him being international wingers, O'Driscoll is obviously a 13.

Didn't mention him being best known for his defence or winning turn overs for fun either...

Scrumdown wrote:

SecretFly wrote:He was of a 'Generation'...

Nobody said he was an immortal God...that was just a joke us Irish made up, Ruby... Be careful of us Irish and words..... besides he's almost old enough now to become a young pundit!!!! And God help us all if that's the next step.

Please pick a better retirement job than that, God!!! ...ahem, I mean BOD.

BOD was at his best in a Leinster shirt. Never quite delivered, at international level at least not in the way Shane Willams consistently delivered for wales up until the day he retired at 34.

You sure got a chip on your shoulder about us Irish scrum. We ain't good at nothing, are we, even producing a GOD..as Wales, yet again, beats us to it.

O'Driscoll played 125 games for Ireland, 124 starts. Shane played 87 - 84 starts.
O'Driscoll had 75 wins, 48 losses. Shane had 41 wins and 44 losses.
O'Driscoll scored 46 tries as a Centre. Shane scored 58 as a Wing.
O'Driscoll has 5 drop goals. Shane none.
O'Drisoll 245 points. Shane 290.

Six Nations:
O'Driscoll 60 starts. Shane 40
O'Driscoll 133 points. Shane 110
O'Driscoll 26 tries. Shane 22
O'Driscoll 41 wins. Shane 24 wins

WC
O'Driscoll 16 starts. Shane 11
O'Driscoll 41 points. Shane 50
O'Driscoll 7 tries. Shane 10
O'Driscoll 10 wins. Shane 4

O'Driscoll highest try scorer in 6N history so far. Highest try scoring Centre. Shane who scored highly as a wing, isn't the highest scoring wing.

I think it's safe to say that as a Centre for Ireland, O'Driscoll has delivered for us.
I think it could be argued too that he's been more influencial for Ireland's successes than Shane has for Wales, given that O'Driscoll is also renowned as a furious tackler and sturdy defender.

Secretfly,

In his early 20's BOD would strike fear into the opposition every time he touched the ball and you could argue that he was the best 13 in the world but we haven't seen that level of performance from him since he was in his mid twenties. He is now 33 and has been living off his reputation for about 6 years especially at international level.

Even at 34, shane williams was easily the best player in the welsh backline and could turn a game in a blink of an eye as he did with that try in his final game against Australia.