Troubled Welsh regions eye English links

I wish they wouldn't publish stories like this. It will create an avalanche of WUMming from both sides of the Severn. It will cause all sorts of arguments about relegation vs ring fencing, clubs v regions, etc. And worst of all it's extremely rude to the current nations that we're already in a league with, who rightly will now want to tell us to p*ss off. People shouldn't open their mouths with these ideas unless they're concrete.

Anyway, here's the article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21977459

"Wales' rugby regions have held fresh exploratory talks with English clubs over joining the Aviva Premiership.
The move is part of a plan to end the Welsh teams' financial plight, that has seen Scarlets wing George North become the latest player to be linked with leaving Wales as Northampton chase him.
Stuart Gallacher, who represents the Scarlets, Ospreys, Blues and Dragons, confirmed the talks.
But Gallacher told The Back Page: "There are massive hurdles to climb."
Those hurdles would include winning the approval of the Welsh Rugby Union, its English counterpart the Rugby Football Union, and the International Rugby Board.
Continue reading the main story
“
Under the terms of the IRB it would be not sanctioned so therefore you have to breakaway
”
Stuart Gallacher
Regional Rugby Wales chairman
Winning over the clubs in English rugby's top flight and the second-tier Championship would also have to happen.
And the four Welsh regions are themselves tied into agreements to play in the Pro12 alongside teams from Ireland, Scotland and Italy.
Gallacher believes the regions would have to help form a breakaway organisation to establish a new cross-border competition, which would establish what he feels would be a meaningful and attractive Anglo-Welsh competition.
He said: "Whether we could ever join the English Aviva Premiership is probably a step too far. I'm not saying that I wouldn't welcome it... it's a product you can get some revenue out of.
"However, there are massive hurdles to climb before you could anywhere get the green light, 'a' from your union and 'b' from the other unions.
"Under the terms of the IRB it would be not sanctioned so therefore you have to breakaway and go and play beyond the controls of your unions, but most importantly the control of the International Rugby Board."
The former Scarlets boss added: "We have to work within our union to better the game.
"I'm giving my opinion. It's not something I would join in on, so I don't see that [an Anglo-Welsh competition] as an option."
The four Welsh regions have faced financial difficulties amid struggles to attract sufficient crowds to games.
That has led to the imposition of a £3.5m salary cap per region per season, which has been cited as a reason for some of Welsh rugby's biggest names opting to leave and play in France and England.
If he decides to join the Saints, North, 20 and with 31 Wales caps, would join France-bound centre Jamie Roberts and Dan Lydiate in exiting the Welsh regions at the end of the 2012-13 season.
Wales prop Gethin Jenkins has bucked the trend by opting to return to Cardiff Blues from Toulon ahead of the 2013-14 season.
And North's fellow Wales wing Alex Cuthbert has resisted the temptation to move at this stage of his career.
Likewise Ospreys have secured Wales fly-half Dan Biggar until the end of the 2015-2016 season.
However, Mike Phillips (Bayonne), James Hook (Perpignan), Lee Byrne (Clermont Auvergne), Aled Brew (Biarritz), Andy Powell (Sale Sharks), Luke Charteris (Perpignan), Paul James (Bath), Craig Mitchell (Exeter) and Rhys Gill (Saracens) are among Wales Test players playing outside the nation.
Gallacher believes the WRU would be rightly concerned if the talent-drain continues and contends that Wales' Test performances could suffer as a result.

Stuart Gallacher and WRU chief Roger Lewis
He added: "Under the market forces at the moment and the economy as it is in Wales, and particularly the pressure from France... we simply can't compete salary-wise.
"The major issue is the quality of what's left behind. Fortunately in Wales we are always able to develop players.
"But these players take time to come through.
"Now George [North] is a different example. He's playing for Wales at 20. George North is an iconic player.
"But if it comes a time where if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. Simple.
"And I understand this to be the case, that... the Scarlets have offered George North a new contract, the best offer they can.
"That's been turned down.
"But they know he's got a year left on his contract.
"In a year's time he'll be a free agent so they'll get nothing [if he stays next season and leaves at the end of his contract]."
Gallacher says the WRU has acknowledged they have the financial means to help stem the player exodus.
He added: "That's a big call for them and it's a call I'd make now.
"The only place in town where there is potential revenue to secure the players in Wales is with the Welsh Rugby Union. We've said that. They accept that. Whether they're going to do anything about it is a call for them."
The WRU was approached for a response but so far has declined to comment.
Watch the full interview with Stuart Gallacher on Scrum V, BBC Two Wales on Sunday from 17:25 BST."

Not sure if this has been done already. Taken from the BBC website

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21977459

Can anyone see this going ahead? I think only the regions would gain from this happening.

They'd have to start at best in the Championship or at best create a UK league (potentially with the Scots) which sits between the Jeff and the Championship.

Can't see the PRL cartel buying into it though.

Twin post merge request.

Let's be honest. Playing in the English league probably would improve the regions revenue. The fans would be far more interested and TV money would be greater.

But what would the Scots/Irish/Italians think? Could they do anything to block it? Would they want to?

A British league could be created with the Scots. But what then of the Irish. They'd surely want to join in. Then what about the two Italians? Could we have a B & I & I league? Or if we're amalgamating multiple nations into leagues, would it make more sense for the Italians to be in the French league?

I think any future changes should be agreed between all the unions. The Welsh are clearly in a fairly desperate financial situation and see a possible opportunity, but they shouldn't just try and abandon their current rabo partners and join England without any consultation with anyone else.

And another thing. Would the English be that pushed about letting the Welsh (or anyone else) join? It would probably bring a bit more money in.

If the Welsh intent to retain a franchise system, then a UK league comprising the 4 Welsh and the 2 Scottish ones plus 6 English sides (4 existing Jeff clubs and 2 Championship ones) could be feasible.

Sitting between the Jeff and the Champ, that would provide the ability for maintaining the regional franchises to stay in the league and provide a stepping stone for English clubs to the Jeff.

The benefit for the Gallo-Scots would be reduced travelling costs and promote attendance whilst in England an 8-team league would allow the separation of club and country games and negate the necessity of playoffs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21977459

This is the triplet of the same post

More from The Guardian here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2013/mar/29/wales-homegrown-winners-wandering-off

I'm not surprised to see this floated. I think it would be good for the Welsh regions to join the AP, and probably good for the AP too. How easy it would be is a different issue, but it's fairly clear that the Pro12 has benefitted the Irish Provinces but done very little for the Welsh Regions.

And of course the HC negotiations continue with the Pro12 trying to protect itself at the same time one of it's members is suffering from the status quo.

Duplicate threads merged.

Combine this with the HC debates and you have the potential for a big shift in the league structure in Europe.

Season structure is going to be huge problem

I think this would require a two division AP, with two up, two down. 12 clubs a division, with the Regions to start in the lower tier (3 of them would be promoted in the first two years I'd expect).

DaveM wrote:I think this would require a two division AP, with two up, two down. 12 clubs a division, with the Regions to start in the lower tier (3 of them would be promoted in the first two years I'd expect).

So effectively starting the welsh clubs in the Championship

i don't think the Ospreys would much like being in the 2nd tier while teams like Sale and LI are in the top teir.

I think even the dragons would get out of the championship pretty easily, much as newcastle are now.

Perhaps a 2/2 or a 3/1 split of welsh clubs into the 1st and 2nd league, but I doubt all 4 would agree to go into a second division league

wales606 wrote:

DaveM wrote:I think this would require a two division AP, with two up, two down. 12 clubs a division, with the Regions to start in the lower tier (3 of them would be promoted in the first two years I'd expect).

So effectively starting the welsh clubs in the Championship

i don't think the Ospreys would much like being in the 2nd tier while teams like Sale and LI are in the top teir.

I think even the dragons would get out of the championship pretty easily, much as newcastle are now.

Perhaps a 2/2 or a 3/1 split of welsh clubs into the 1st and 2nd league, but I doubt all 4 would agree to go into a second division league

Why shouldn't they all earn a position W606?

I don't think that the PRL would countenance it anyway.
More than any other invidious sporting cartel (apart from franchised leagues), the Jeff is as odious as any you'd find.

What would happen if a Welsh franchise came bottom of Jeff Div 2?

Putting aside the more immediate points of discussion for a moment, where would a theoretical merger with the prem leave the Welsh viewing public? Provided other formats remain as they are today and the BT exclusivity agreement extends to the accommodated regions, that would leave us with only the occasional LV= fixture on terrestrial tv if even that (and quite frankly I no longer feel the slightest inclination towards viewing such a mediocre and ill thought-out comp as the LV).

The end result by my estimation is that RRW are putting what little support the regions have left in serious jeopardy with this move. I hope with all my heart the WRU sees this for themselves and effectively blocks the initiative.

And what happens when it comes to TV money? Since it'll be a cross border competition the English clubs will demand more money based on viewing figures in Wales and England.

I'd be very happy to see the regions join the Aviva, or I'd be just as happy for the regions to run second teams and join the Aviva "A" league so they always have a home game each week.

They could then use the "A" games to promote their region around their local area.

I'd happily see us leave the Rabo for the Aviva though, in truth Welsh fans would be much happier in the Aviva, and going up to Gloucester and Bath would be quite fun for Welsh fans.

profitius wrote:And what happens when it comes to TV money? Since it'll be a cross border competition the English clubs will demand more money based on viewing figures in Wales and England.

I'm not aware of Swansea football club having less money than any other English premiership club because Wales has a smaller population.
The Welsh regions would join the Premiership rugby group and work alongside them.

Shifty wrote:I'd be very happy to see the regions join the Aviva, or I'd be just as happy for the regions to run second teams and join the Aviva "A" league so they always have a home game each week.

They could then use the "A" games to promote their region around their local area.

I'd happily see us leave the Rabo for the Aviva though, in truth Welsh fans would be much happier in the Aviva, and going up to Gloucester and Bath would be quite fun for Welsh fans.

Spatially yes, it would be a more suitable arrangement.

My question remains unanswered of how television rights would be set up. I can't see BT backing down from their exclusivity deal therefore any league merger would probably presuppose an extension of that deal to the regions and therefore terrestrial access to the domestic league would become largely non-existent in Wales. As I've explained I can only see that isolating large quantities of what little support the regions are able to muster at present. With less of a following than they have currently, if that is imaginable, I think one or more regions folding would become a very realistic danger. This is why I'm unwilling to take it for granted and rush into this proposal (in the way Gallacher seems keen on doing) without taking these factors into careful consideration at the very least.

Knowsit17 wrote:Spatially yes, it would be a more suitable arrangement.

My question remains unanswered of how television rights would be set up. I can't see BT backing down from their exclusivity deal therefore any league merger would probably presuppose an extension of that deal to the regions and therefore terrestrial access to the domestic league would become largely non-existent in Wales. As I've explained I can only see that isolating large quantities of what little support the regions are able to muster at present. With less of a following than they have currently, if that is imaginable, I think one or more regions folding would become a very realistic danger. This is why I'm unwilling to take it for granted and rush into this proposal (in the way Gallacher seems keen on doing) without taking these factors into careful consideration at the very least.

I don't see that as an issue in all honesty. The Welsh regions would become members of Premiership rugby limited. The money would be split 16 ways assuming the Welsh regions joined the 12 English teams.

The only issue I see is promotion and relegation. Basically you need to de-regionalise the Welsh regions. The Welsh teams have 4 spots and the bottom placed Welsh region goes into a play off with the top Welsh Premiership club. Obviously this means you'd have to rename the Ospreys to Swansea Ospreys, while disbanding Swansea RFC. Rebrand the Dragons to Newport Dragons. Rebrand the Scarlets to Llanelli Scarlets while disbanding Llanelli RFC. And disband Cardiff RFC from the Premiership.

Or you could alter the English Championship to have 16 teams. 6 Welsh and 8 English teams in it. And have the Bottom placed English and Welsh teams in the Aviva be relegated for the top 2 championship teams provided they meet the entry criteria for promotion.

That's assuming the regions are all allowed direct entry into the top flight, which is hardly a given as some above have indicated. They may have to proceed first through the Championship and while I can easily see one or two winning promotion first season, there's no guarantee that all four regions would find themselves in the top flight at the same time. I couldn't fathom a guess at how it would all work if it was set up, as the beeb article states it's all exploratory at this point.

The Prem system is oriented on generating revenue for the twelve top flight clubs at the detriment of terrestrial viewing. If we were to form some sort of domestic Anglo-Welsh league, I think it only makes sense to ask ourselves whether we want that model for the regional set-up. The iidea makes me uncomfortable.

And that's not even contemplating the impact it might have on the other Rabo participant unions. Would the Irish, Scottish and Italians be happy with an 8-team league? I suppose if it did happen they could revive the Borders and maybe draft in a third Italian club but that's all speculative, quite possibly difficult to sustain. Look at what happened to Aironi.

Shifty wrote:

profitius wrote:And what happens when it comes to TV money? Since it'll be a cross border competition the English clubs will demand more money based on viewing figures in Wales and England.

I'm not aware of Swansea football club having less money than any other English premiership club because Wales has a smaller population.
The Welsh regions would join the Premiership rugby group and work alongside them.

Shifty, it would be more like Celtic and Rangers wanting to join the EPL. They've been trying for years but they're not wanted by the English clubs even though they're famous clubs and would increase the profile of the league abroad. Thats just 2 teams playing in a 20 team league. You're talking about 3 or 4 Welsh teams in a 12 team league. It ain't going to happen.

What will happen is the Rabo teams will get signed up by sky and they're the masters of promotion. They'll help organise the league better and make it more attractive for spectators. Plus, less games on fre to air TV means more fans will turn up to watch it.

If we are talking about potentially good sense future concepts then it would probably be better to have the top say four English Clubs join the RP12. Bottom four RP12 teams drop down with the left over English teams to a tier below.

We could have qualification from one league to another.

That would mean that the Best 12 Teams in Britain and Ireland were playing each other constantly.

maestegmafia wrote:If we are talking about potentially good sense future concepts then it would probably be better to have the top say four English Clubs join the RP12. Bottom four RP12 teams drop down with the left over English teams to a tier below.

We could have qualification from one league to another.

That would mean that the Best 12 Teams in Britain and Ireland were playing each other constantly.

Go eff the Mother Mary.

maestegmafia wrote:If we are talking about potentially good sense future concepts then it would probably be better to have the top say four English Clubs join the RP12. Bottom four RP12 teams drop down with the left over English teams to a tier below.

We could have qualification from one league to another.

That would mean that the Best 12 Teams in Britain and Ireland were playing each other constantly.

lol

Top 6 Rabo and top 6 Aviva?

Sounds fair, there is no way Edinburgh, Connacht, and the Dragons should be anywhere near a new league!

Why should the clubs who have gone through the financial pain and risks of the last fifteen years to develop the league with promotion and relegation, then allow outsiders to ride in on their coat tails ?
I have no interest in allowing franchises like Ospreys, the bulk of which will be unavailable for large parts of the season to take tv money from potential Championship clubs.

The Celtic Unions have turned their nose up at extra money from the BT deal euro element, so instead the English clubs should set up a FA cup style competition and give other clubs exposure to AP sides.

Complete non starter. No PRL team is going to accept relegation to allow a welsh team in the top flight, the IRB won't sanction it,
At the beginning of professionalism a British isles league was mooted but the english wouldn't join.

Absolutely.

All Unions had the right at the time.

A British league could be sanctioned though. Given enough notice.

A british Isles league - needs to include the irish.

Recwatcher wrote:Why should the clubs who have gone through the financial pain and risks of the last fifteen years to develop the league with promotion and relegation, then allow outsiders to ride in on their coat tails ?
I have no interest in allowing franchises like Ospreys, the bulk of which will be unavailable for large parts of the season to take tv money from potential Championship clubs.

The Celtic Unions have turned their nose up at extra money from the BT deal euro element, so instead the English clubs should set up a FA cup style competition and give other clubs exposure to AP sides.

This supposed 'non story' is what the WRU are after, getting shot of any sort of responsibility of club rugby in Wales and focus on the Academy and control of an elite playing squad!!

The regions would join the AP, give up any rights or negotiate little benefit to them except a very small percentage of the payout, and will base the decision on how it will 'excite the nation to get behind their region' It will infact be the final nail in the coffin of the sport in Wales, as long as team Wales keeps bringing in the bumpers million pound match days 8 times a year (soon to be extended to 12 times a year if the WRU have anything to do with it) they care not a jot about the sport!!!

The BBC article seems to have Gallagher suggest it, then say it wouldn't be sanctioned so would have to be outside the unions, then say it's discounted. A very strange article that does more to rule it out than suggest it as a real possibility.

TJ wrote:A british Isles league - needs to include the irish.

A British league wouldn't TJ.

Why would any of the Unions want the Welsh regions in an English league.

The time was right almost 20 years ago when Swansea and Cardiff had the rebel season.

Its not going to happen.

The only thing remotely possible would be a European League with promotion and relegation.

Given the regional performance in the HC the Welsh would be in div 3 at the best

Meanwhile, whilst the regions enjoy their grand day out at the MS, the shenanigans behind the scenes get more convoluted.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21983053

As a Welsh rugby fan I would love to see the Welsh regions in the English league, it won't happen though because the English clubs would never agree to it.

The reason the Welsh regions get such a poor attendance is because they play in a mickey mouse league. By that I don't mean that the other teams are poor, just that few of them take it seriously. Joining the English system would make the games more meaningful and, I believe, be a huge boost to attendances.

In theory there would be the risk that a Welsh team came bottom of the championship but I think that would be a risk worth taking. As for where they would fit in, I would suggest increasing the size of both premiership and championship by 2, and placing the Ospreys in the Premiership and the other 3 welsh teams in the Championship. With more teams a two up/two down system could be considered.

Anyhow, this is all pie in the sky as the English clubs will never consider it (though I wish they would).

As I say, a UK league system could be cobbled together for mutual benefit:

English elite league (based on current positions)
1 Saracens 19 15 1 3 440 280 5 67
2 Leicester 19 13 1 5 445 282 9 63
3 Harlequins 19 12 0 7 473 399 8 56
4 Northampton 19 12 0 7 404 390 6 54
5 Gloucester 19 11 1 7 439 386 8 54
6 Bath 19 9 1 9 402 362 10 48
7 London Wasps 19 9 0 10 451 435 11 47
8 Exeter 19 9 1 9 438 377 8 46

UK league (England plus Welsh and Scottish franchises)
9 Worcester 19 5 1 13 357 425 11 33
10 London Irish 18 6 0 12 353 481 4 28
11 Sale 18 5 0 13 284 487 3 23
12 London Welsh 19 4 0 15 337 519 7 18
1 Newcastle 20 20 0 0 638 223 13 93
2 Nottingham 20 14 0 6 570 353 11 67
1 Glasgow 19 14 0 5 480 275 11 67
4 Ospreys 19 13 1 5 407 267 4 58
5 Scarlets 19 13 0 6 366 353 6 58
8 Cardiff Blues 19 7 0 12 301 413 6 34
10 Edinburgh 19 6 0 13 334 418 8 32
11 NG Dragons 19 5 0 14 299 503 3 23

greytiger wrote:Meanwhile, whilst the regions enjoy their grand day out at the MS, the shenanigans behind the scenes get more convoluted.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21983053

The WRU statement is seriously damming of the undercover shenanigans of the regions along with just about everything else.

Allty wrote:

greytiger wrote:Meanwhile, whilst the regions enjoy their grand day out at the MS, the shenanigans behind the scenes get more convoluted.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21983053

The WRU statement is seriously damming of the undercover shenanigans of the regions along with just about everything else.

Depends on if you accept the staement, hook, line and sinker.

They are giving their side of the story, but we have no context as to why things have got to this stage. WRU are in a strong position due to national team successes in 6Ns. They seem to have decided to try and use this position to force the regions where they want.

irfon17 wrote:
The reason the Welsh regions get such a poor attendance is because they play in a mickey mouse league. By that I don't mean that the other teams are poor, just that few of them take it seriously. Joining the English system would make the games more meaningful and, I believe, be a huge boost to attendances.

So its other peoples fault.

Lets be clear, the reason the regions are under attended is pure and simple, regions do not exist in Wales, there are no boundaries and noone has bought into a governing body telling us who we should have alleigances with, who we should care about, and who we should support!!!

Noone from Exeter would ever be able to start supporting a Bristol or Reading rugby team, Liverpool football fans would never follow a Manchester based regional football club, and Ponty fans were never going to follow Cardiff, Ebbw fans Newport etc...

Llanelli is a town of less than 60'000 people, yet represent 25% of the game in Wales!!!!

The WRU have created this mess, and have alienated most of the country, I am, and know hundreds of Cardiff born and breds who couldn't give a toss about the Blues in reality these days, the Welsh national team is the only professional rugby team with any history, heritage or soul in the country, and it is the only one supported as such!!!

PS

Please take everything the WRU releases with a hand full of salt, their propoganda machine has millions of miles on it but runs like new!!!

interesting that western mail rugby reporter simon thomas has tweeted that the wru we're willing to pay for george and send him to the blues. what's that all about?!!

The WRU would love to drop to 2 regions, pack them with superstars and send them into the Aviva Prem!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Lets be clear, the reason the regions are under attended is pure and simple, regions do not exist in Wales, there are no boundaries and noone has bought into a governing body telling us who we should have alleigances with, who we should care about, and who we should support!!!

Noone from Exeter would ever be able to start supporting a Bristol or Reading rugby team, Liverpool football fans would never follow a Manchester based regional football club, and Ponty fans were never going to follow Cardiff, Ebbw fans Newport etc...

Llanelli is a town of less than 60'000 people, yet represent 25% of the game in Wales!!!!

The WRU have created this mess, and have alienated most of the country, I am, and know hundreds of Cardiff born and breds who couldn't give a toss about the Blues in reality these days, the Welsh national team is the only professional rugby team with any history, heritage or soul in the country, and it is the only one supported as such!!!

I had to explain to some English colleagues why the support for regions is terrible, the best analogy I could give them was imagine if all the London based Premiership football teams merged into "team london", and then all the Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal etc supporters suddenly had to support the same team, no one would buy into it.

thebluesmancometh wrote:PS

Please take everything the WRU releases with a hand full of salt, their propoganda machine has millions of miles on it but runs like new!!!

I would far rather believe the WRU than some of the individuals who are in charge of the regional game.

It wasn't the WRU that spent millions on foreign imports.

Allty wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:PS

Please take everything the WRU releases with a hand full of salt, their propoganda machine has millions of miles on it but runs like new!!!

I would far rather believe the WRU than some of the individuals who are in charge of the regional game.

It wasn't the WRU that spent millions on foreign imports.

Cheap foreign imports! Cheap because of the constraints placed on them, if you can't afford quality you get the best you can for the price you can afford!!!

IronMike wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Lets be clear, the reason the regions are under attended is pure and simple, regions do not exist in Wales, there are no boundaries and noone has bought into a governing body telling us who we should have alleigances with, who we should care about, and who we should support!!!

Noone from Exeter would ever be able to start supporting a Bristol or Reading rugby team, Liverpool football fans would never follow a Manchester based regional football club, and Ponty fans were never going to follow Cardiff, Ebbw fans Newport etc...

Llanelli is a town of less than 60'000 people, yet represent 25% of the game in Wales!!!!

The WRU have created this mess, and have alienated most of the country, I am, and know hundreds of Cardiff born and breds who couldn't give a toss about the Blues in reality these days, the Welsh national team is the only professional rugby team with any history, heritage or soul in the country, and it is the only one supported as such!!!

I had to explain to some English colleagues why the support for regions is terrible, the best analogy I could give them was imagine if all the London based Premiership football teams merged into "team london", and then all the Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal etc supporters suddenly had to support the same team, no one would buy into it.

Thats how I tend to describe it too mate, except generally use Manchest/Liverpool. Most responses are of sheer bewilderment, like that would be the most ridiculous thing theyve heard and noone would actually be THAT stupid!!