Troubled Welsh regions eye English links

First topic message reminder :

I wish they wouldn't publish stories like this. It will create an avalanche of WUMming from both sides of the Severn. It will cause all sorts of arguments about relegation vs ring fencing, clubs v regions, etc. And worst of all it's extremely rude to the current nations that we're already in a league with, who rightly will now want to tell us to p*ss off. People shouldn't open their mouths with these ideas unless they're concrete.

Anyway, here's the article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21977459

Allty wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:PS

Please take everything the WRU releases with a hand full of salt, their propoganda machine has millions of miles on it but runs like new!!!

I would far rather believe the WRU than some of the individuals who are in charge of the regional game.

It wasn't the WRU that spent millions on foreign imports.

The WRU own 50% of the Dragons after Ebbw Vale pulled out their share in the first year (around 2004), so any squad signings would have to pass through them too surely? They have therefore known about all of the foreign dross that has been signed in Gwent.

The PRL would not agree to four teams dropping into the Championship to accomodate the Regions into a twelve team league.

A sixteen team league is unworkable unless the LV is dropped (and that isn't a 1st team competition anyway), and league games are played throughout the international windows.

Starting an increased 16 team league a month earlier will lead to more player fatigue, and probably more injuries. It leads me to think that this idea is a non starter.

The 'rebel season' was 98/99 when the English clubs withdrew from the HC.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Allty wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:PS

Please take everything the WRU releases with a hand full of salt, their propoganda machine has millions of miles on it but runs like new!!!

I would far rather believe the WRU than some of the individuals who are in charge of the regional game.

It wasn't the WRU that spent millions on foreign imports.

Cheap foreign imports! Cheap because of the constraints placed on them, if you can't afford quality you get the best you can for the price you can afford!!!

Justin Marshall etc were far from cheap.

Over 10 years millions have been wasted with little return.

It is extaordinary that the Regions haven't done better in the HC, bar a s/f for the Blues (and lost on a penalty shoot out).

Post the 2008 slam I thought the Ospreys and Blues would be HC champions sooner rather than later. Now it looks like much later.

The WRU need to much more imo, having creating the Regions in the first place.

What are Welsh attendances like? I thought I saw that the Ospreys have sold more season tickets this seaosn than ever before.

A lot of English fans would like to see no league games during international windows. That would mean 1 of 3 realistic possibilities. Make the season longer (which I think is just too much rugby IMHO) or reduce the size of the AP down first from 12 to say 10 or bin off completely the LV cup. Personally I'm in favour of 2 & 3.

There would have to be a league created between the AP and the Championship. This would provide an entry level into the structure for the Welsh teams (possibly the Scots & Irish teamstoo). Let's face it... the English teams are never going to agree to give up their AP spotswillingly.

Institute a policy of 2 up & 2 down for a couple of seasons and everything should balance out.

The former Pro12 teams are going to have to live with the possibility of demotion from the top table and that promotion to it must be earned.

profitius wrote:What are Welsh attendances like? I thought I saw that the Ospreys have sold more season tickets this seaosn than ever before.

Shifted rather "sold" plus loads of free shirts.
£99 season tickets on offer for next year which is a bargain.

Allty wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Allty wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:PS

Please take everything the WRU releases with a hand full of salt, their propoganda machine has millions of miles on it but runs like new!!!

I would far rather believe the WRU than some of the individuals who are in charge of the regional game.

It wasn't the WRU that spent millions on foreign imports.

Cheap foreign imports! Cheap because of the constraints placed on them, if you can't afford quality you get the best you can for the price you can afford!!!

Justin Marshall etc were far from cheap.

Over 10 years millions have been wasted with little return.

'appenin Wodge. You're a crafty, lying sod aye. Stop posting garbage on message boards and start taking some responsibility. It's not all about how many sparkly cowboy hats get shifted you know.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

profitius wrote:What are Welsh attendances like? I thought I saw that the Ospreys have sold more season tickets this seaosn than ever before.

Shifted rather "sold" plus loads of free shirts.
£99 season tickets on offer for next year which is a bargain.

More people will create a better atmosphere and in turn encourage others to come. Its good long term planning.

I think that the regions should be scrapped, then set up a two tier "Celtic/Italian" league with the 14 top Welsh teams, as well as the current Irish, Scottish and Italian teams. Add into that the Borders and Caledonia Reds,and two more Italian teams and there'd be 26 teams in total. They could keep the current Pro12 in which the top four Welsh teams could compete as well as the existing teams and the division below wouldn't need any breaks for European competition so could have 14 teams. If Sky got involved that would introduce more money and if the WRU started centrally contracting international and u20 players then it could be affordable. This would probably provide a glass ceiling however this could be avoided by the WRU providing licenses based on performance, finances and stadia. For example if a team came last repeatedly in the celtic league then they could be replaced by another if the WRU thought the other team had potential to do better.

I think the current Aviva and Rabo12 set-ups, sitting alongside the Heineken Cup, are pretty good, and I wouldn't personally change a thing.

The Welsh regions mismanaged their finances, and it seems their solution, rather than to impose austerity measures to balance the books, is to dump out of the Rabo12 and try and get their hands on SKY money currently on offer in England.

Presumably there will have to be something in this for the Aviva teams, which I'm currently struggling to see. There's also the issue of relegation. Do the Dragons really want to be a Championship or third tier side within two seasons? I presume the Welsh expect all the money to be paid upfront so that (a) it can disappear down a black hole to service their debts and (b) to allow them to mis-spend more money on imported players/ hiking the salaries of their Welsh stars to give them a chance of being competitive and qualifying for Europe, or do they expect to compete in the Aviva and yet still qualify automatically for Europe?

Teams should spend what they earn. No salary cap per se, just pure and simple "you earn it, you spend it". The only cap should be a cap on debt, breach of which results in points deducted and management accountability.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think the current Aviva and Rabo12 set-ups, sitting alongside the Heineken Cup, are pretty good, and I wouldn't personally change a thing.

The Welsh regions mismanaged their finances, and it seems their solution, rather than to impose austerity measures to balance the books, is to dump out of the Rabo12 and try and get their hands on SKY money currently on offer in England.

Presumably there will have to be something in this for the Aviva teams, which I'm currently struggling to see. There's also the issue of relegation. Do the Dragons really want to be a Championship or third tier side within two seasons? I presume the Welsh expect all the money to be paid upfront so that (a) it can disappear down a black hole to service their debts and (b) to allow them to mis-spend more money on imported players/ hiking the salaries of their Welsh stars to give them a chance of being competitive and qualifying for Europe, or do they expect to compete in the Aviva and yet still qualify automatically for Europe?

Teams should spend what they earn. No salary cap per se, just pure and simple "you earn it, you spend it". The only cap should be a cap on debt, breach of which results in points deducted and management accountability.

In a free market I'd agree (forgetting for a moment that there have been a few recent hiccups on the way).
Let the free-marketeers have their way. I'm sure that everyone including the accountants and HMRC will be happy.

The important flip side of course is "you don't earn it, you don't spend it".....

The problem with the Welsh regions is the lack of supporter buy-in. Simply playing in a different competition won't change the grassroot fan's allegiance or more importantly where they spend their money.

The Great Aukster wrote:The problem with the Welsh regions is the lack of supporter buy-in. Simply playing in a different competition won't change the grassroot fan's allegiance or more importantly where they spend their money.

I don't think it's about generating revenue the old fashioned way (i.e. engaging the local communities to support your team). This is about a far easier and quicker fix: must get hands on SKY TV money and play against sides with more travelling fans....

This way the Welsh regions won't need to re-think strategy and seek to rebalance their books within their existing parameters, they can simply leach off the English league. Hopefully the Irish teams, with their far greater numbers of supporters, don't try the same thing. It's pretty clear who would bring more to the table....

It's a shame, because I perceive the Rabo12 to be improving year or year. It's taken time to build up the league so as to give it some meaning, always an uphill battle with a new league, but I think we're getting there slowly. Unfortunately not quickly enough for those Welsh regions that overspent and are now faced with losing their best players.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:The problem with the Welsh regions is the lack of supporter buy-in. Simply playing in a different competition won't change the grassroot fan's allegiance or more importantly where they spend their money.

I don't think it's about generating revenue the old fashioned way (i.e. engaging the local communities to support your team). This is about a far easier and quicker fix: must get hands on SKY TV money and play against sides with more travelling fans....

This way the Welsh regions won't need to re-think strategy and seek to rebalance their books within their existing parameters, they can simply leach off the English league. Hopefully the Irish teams, with their far greater numbers of supporters, don't try the same thing. It's pretty clear who would bring more to the table....

It's a shame, because I perceive the Rabo12 to be improving year or year. It's taken time to build up the league so as to give it some meaning, always an uphill battle with a new league, but I think we're getting there slowly. Unfortunately not quickly enough for those Welsh regions that overspent and are now faced with losing their best players.

It could be that the Welsh don't like the fact that the top three aren't from Wales and as a result rather than accepting that it is their own fault, they think there must be something wrong with the system much like the English in the HC. If you look at individual signings Leinster, Ulster and Glasgow make sensible signings, players like Strauss and Maitland weren't yet capped and promising players like Matawalu who can't be too expensive but is very good in comparison to the likes of Jerry Collins who must have cost a fortune and was past his best and useless. They made stupid decisions such as thinking big name signings would draw in fans which is partially true but wins and local players who connect with supporters are more important.

That maybe so, but it doesn't explain away the fact that the Ospreys have actually been quite a successful Rabo12 side, and may well win it this year.

I agree, the root cause of the problem is mismanagement. Clearly not soley a Welsh problem, the SRU patented incompetence many moons ago, but the notion that the solution is to jump ship to a more profitable league is missing the fundamental point. No club, franchise, region or any other form of rugby playing entity can make money if it can't get fans through the turnstiles and generate supporter interest in its matches. Everything flows from that.

funnyExiledScot wrote:
It's a shame, because I perceive the Rabo12 to be improving year or year. It's taken time to build up the league so as to give it some meaning, always an uphill battle with a new league, but I think we're getting there slowly. Unfortunately not quickly enough for those Welsh regions that overspent and are now faced with losing their best players.

Indeed. Its a young league and growing at a fair pace. Wales wouldn't have won as many 6 nation titles without the Rabo league and Italy are already showing the benefits of being in it.

There seems to be a game going on in Wales between the WRU and the regions. They both want power. It looks to me like the WRU want to see the regions fail so they can take control of them. They were happy to see people pump money into the regions in the early days so understandably the regions' owners are not happy.

Whilst there appear to be lots of benefits for the Welsh regions, I don't really see what they would bring to the English table to benefit the Jeff clubs. The top end teams don't need them and the bottom end teams won't wan't them - I can't imagine LI, Sale, Newcastle. Worcester, etc. signing up to competing against possbily wealthier Welsh clubs.

123456789 wrote:I think that the regions should be scrapped, then set up a two tier "Celtic/Italian" league with the 14 top Welsh teams, as well as the current Irish, Scottish and Italian teams. Add into that the Borders and Caledonia Reds,and two more Italian teams and there'd be 26 teams in total. They could keep the current Pro12 in which the top four Welsh teams could compete as well as the existing teams and the division below wouldn't need any breaks for European competition so could have 14 teams. If Sky got involved that would introduce more money and if the WRU started centrally contracting international and u20 players then it could be affordable. This would probably provide a glass ceiling however this could be avoided by the WRU providing licenses based on performance, finances and stadia. For example if a team came last repeatedly in the celtic league then they could be replaced by another if the WRU thought the other team had potential to do better.

I wouldn't mind something like that. Have the 12 top teams in a league and below that have conferences like they do in super rugby. I could think of a few Irish clubs like Cork Con etc who would have the potential to succeed.

1. The constant talks about Welsh rugby being in crisis make me laugh until I yog. Just won the 6N, 3 slams in the past decade, U20s and U18s are in excellent fettle, the 7s side is having their best ever season on the circuit and the Spreys are very much in the running for the Rabo. What crisis is this, exactly?

If you mean that French and English clubs are poaching their players, how else are you supposed to free up franchise slots for talented young players?

2. Agree with FES - it's a graceless short term fix by the WRU and I cannot see why the Jeff clubs would go for it. I'm not against a reshuffle if it works for everyone but one of the reasons that Italian interest in the game has increased exponentially is the relatively high profile of the Rabo over there - especially given Treviso's good results. We all live in a small world and ALL unions need to be protected.

Irish Londoner wrote:Whilst there appear to be lots of benefits for the Welsh regions, I don't really see what they would bring to the English table to benefit the Jeff clubs. The top end teams don't need them and the bottom end teams won't wan't them - I can't imagine LI, Sale, Newcastle. Worcester, etc. signing up to competing against possbily wealthier Welsh clubs.

Duckworth at Worcester appears to have come forward with some encouraging words for the Welsh regions, but my view on this is that he thinks by having the Welsh sides join an expanded Aviva, it'll do away with relegation and crystallise Worcester in the top flight. I could well be wrong, but that's the main benefit I see for a side like Worcester.

I think it would be a disaster for the Aviva. I think the Aviva is a fantastic tournament, only enhanced by relegation and new sides coming forward. The Welsh sides won't be increasing the fanbase for the Aviva particularly (certainly not as much as an Anglo/Irish tournament), and I don't see their inclusion increasing the appeal (and therefore the amount they'd agree to pay) for Sky or ESPN.

The Welsh should stay in the Rabo12 and help to make it into an even better tournament than it currently already is. If the regions can't attract fans, then they'll simply have to accept that they can't afford to fork out for top class players (unless some rich owner is going to pay out of his own pocket). That's just reality.

George Carlin wrote:1. The constant talks about Welsh rugby being in crisis make me laugh until I yog. Just won the 6N, 3 slams in the past decade, U20s and U18s are in excellent fettle, the 7s side is having their best ever season on the circuit and the Spreys are very much in the running for the Rabo. What crisis is this, exactly?

If you mean that French and English clubs are poaching their players, how else are you supposed to free up franchise slots for talented young players?

2. Agree with FES - it's a graceless short term fix by the WRU and I cannot see why the Jeff clubs would go for it. I'm not against a reshuffle if it works for everyone but one of the reasons that Italian interest in the game has increased exponentially is the relatively high profile of the Rabo over there - especially given Treviso's good results. We all live in a small world and ALL unions need to be protected.

Its the regions who talk about joining the English not the WRU. It was Stuart Gallagher of the RRW who released the headline. It is in a way what has kicked off all the rumbles in the jungle, its just a headline grabber not a reality.

maestegmafia wrote:

George Carlin wrote:1. The constant talks about Welsh rugby being in crisis make me laugh until I yog. Just won the 6N, 3 slams in the past decade, U20s and U18s are in excellent fettle, the 7s side is having their best ever season on the circuit and the Spreys are very much in the running for the Rabo. What crisis is this, exactly?

If you mean that French and English clubs are poaching their players, how else are you supposed to free up franchise slots for talented young players?

2. Agree with FES - it's a graceless short term fix by the WRU and I cannot see why the Jeff clubs would go for it. I'm not against a reshuffle if it works for everyone but one of the reasons that Italian interest in the game has increased exponentially is the relatively high profile of the Rabo over there - especially given Treviso's good results. We all live in a small world and ALL unions need to be protected.

Its the regions who talk about joining the English not the WRU. It was Stuart Gallagher of the RRW who released the headline. It is in a way what has kicked off all the rumbles in the jungle, its just a headline grabber not a reality.

When The Scarlets shocked Northampton on Saturday 19 November 2011, the scoreboard said "Northampton 23 - 28 Llanelli".
and I loved it.

Irish Londoner wrote:Whilst there appear to be lots of benefits for the Welsh regions, I don't really see what they would bring to the English table to benefit the Jeff clubs. The top end teams don't need them and the bottom end teams won't wan't them - I can't imagine LI, Sale, Newcastle. Worcester, etc. signing up to competing against possbily wealthier Welsh clubs.

Money. English - Welsh games are box office. BT would pay for it, as would supporters through the gate.

2-tier AP with 12 teams in each and promotion and relegation between the two divisions (2 up, 2 down). Imagine how interesting next year's second tier would be with the Welsh Regions, Bedford, Bristol, Leeds and Nottingham all chasing two promotion spots. And as the Welsh sides gain promotion it would add more and kore spice to the top tier of the AP - imagine Ospreys and Leicester in the final of the AP play-offs.

Top 8 of the top tier play in an Anglo/Welsh-French competition, the rest of the top flight and the top 4 of the bottom flight in an Amlin replacement featuring clubs from all over Europe.

To make it even more interesting rebrand the Regions LLanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport.

It's very unlikely, but it would do wonders for Welsh club rugby and would actually be good for the English clubs too.

DaveM wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Whilst there appear to be lots of benefits for the Welsh regions, I don't really see what they would bring to the English table to benefit the Jeff clubs. The top end teams don't need them and the bottom end teams won't wan't them - I can't imagine LI, Sale, Newcastle. Worcester, etc. signing up to competing against possbily wealthier Welsh clubs.

Money. English - Welsh games are box office. BT would pay for it, as would supporters through the gate.

2-tier AP with 12 teams in each and promotion and relegation between the two divisions (2 up, 2 down). Imagine how interesting next year's second tier would be with the Welsh Regions, Bedford, Bristol, Leeds and Nottingham all chasing two promotion spots. And as the Welsh sides gain promotion it would add more and kore spice to the top tier of the AP - imagine Ospreys and Leicester in the final of the AP play-offs.

Top 8 of the top tier play in an Anglo/Welsh-French competition, the rest of the top flight and the top 4 of the bottom flight in an Amlin replacement featuring clubs from all over Europe.

To make it even more interesting rebrand the Regions LLanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport.

It's very unlikely, but it would do wonders for Welsh club rugby and would actually be good for the English clubs too.

So Irish and Scottish and Italians dropped from the Top Euro Competition that includes the French?

Wow... that was quick and clean. Painless. The PRL should hire you as negotiator.

The Irish, Scottish and Italian sides should do whatever is in their best interests. I think the proposal above works well for the English and the Welsh, and would suit the French. What everyone did would be up to them.

I'm watching Casino at the moment. Dave, you sound like Joe Pesci.

"We take care of our business. Your business is your business unless it interferes with my business"

What'd be in our best interests is to keep the Anglo/Welsh French Competition one that involves Irish, Scottish and Italian sides - an Anglo/Irish/French/Welsh/Scottish/Italian Competition if you like ..and nope, not an Amlin style show for the undersides. The main event where the main money will be - that's what we'd do 'in our best interests'. Would that suit your interests?

DaveM wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Whilst there appear to be lots of benefits for the Welsh regions, I don't really see what they would bring to the English table to benefit the Jeff clubs. The top end teams don't need them and the bottom end teams won't wan't them - I can't imagine LI, Sale, Newcastle. Worcester, etc. signing up to competing against possbily wealthier Welsh clubs.

Money. English - Welsh games are box office. BT would pay for it, as would supporters through the gate.

2-tier AP with 12 teams in each and promotion and relegation between the two divisions (2 up, 2 down). Imagine how interesting next year's second tier would be with the Welsh Regions, Bedford, Bristol, Leeds and Nottingham all chasing two promotion spots. And as the Welsh sides gain promotion it would add more and kore spice to the top tier of the AP - imagine Ospreys and Leicester in the final of the AP play-offs.

Top 8 of the top tier play in an Anglo/Welsh-French competition, the rest of the top flight and the top 4 of the bottom flight in an Amlin replacement featuring clubs from all over Europe.

To make it even more interesting rebrand the Regions LLanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport.

It's very unlikely, but it would do wonders for Welsh club rugby and would actually be good for the English clubs too.

It doesn't matter how much money the Welsh can bring to the table. If the Welsh don't bring enough money which is likely, then forget about it. Just say BT doubled what they are offering the English teams if the Welsh came on board. The English would claim the vast majority of that money claiming there are many more English viewers. Just like they're trying to do in the HEC negotiations.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

George Carlin wrote:1. The constant talks about Welsh rugby being in crisis make me laugh until I yog. Just won the 6N, 3 slams in the past decade, U20s and U18s are in excellent fettle, the 7s side is having their best ever season on the circuit and the Spreys are very much in the running for the Rabo. What crisis is this, exactly?

If you mean that French and English clubs are poaching their players, how else are you supposed to free up franchise slots for talented young players?

2. Agree with FES - it's a graceless short term fix by the WRU and I cannot see why the Jeff clubs would go for it. I'm not against a reshuffle if it works for everyone but one of the reasons that Italian interest in the game has increased exponentially is the relatively high profile of the Rabo over there - especially given Treviso's good results. We all live in a small world and ALL unions need to be protected.

Its the regions who talk about joining the English not the WRU. It was Stuart Gallagher of the RRW who released the headline. It is in a way what has kicked off all the rumbles in the jungle, its just a headline grabber not a reality.

When The Scarlets shocked Northampton on Saturday 19 November 2011, the scoreboard said "Northampton 23 - 28 Llanelli".


and I loved it.

To be fair the Scarlets seem to include points scored/appearances etc from pre regionalisation, so its not exactly as if they have grasped the new identity with both hands is it?

profitius wrote:It doesn't matter how much money the Welsh can bring to the table. If the Welsh don't bring enough money which is likely, then forget about it. Just say BT doubled what they are offering the English teams if the Welsh came on board. The English would claim the vast majority of that money claiming there are many more English viewers. Just like they're trying to do in the HEC negotiations.

Well we don't know exactly what is being suggested for the split of money for the European competitions. Lot's of supposition, guess work and extrapolation but the only actual information says all the money will go into a central pot. Nothing about how the put would be split (that I've seen)

Now they could follow the model of the PRO12 where each union sells their TV rights and keeps the money for themselves. Or we could see an expanded PRL concept where the money is generally split evenly.

However if any such thing was to happen a requirement would be for the Regions to control their own TV rights, which won't happen.

This is all just a way for the Regions to try and put pressure on the WRU. But it's pointless because the only way a Anglo-Welsh competition would be formed without WRU agreement would be to form outside the IRB umbrella (i.e. not Rugby Union anymore). I don't believe for a second the PRL would even consider this just for including the Welsh.

Remember folks that this has only been mentioned in passing by one bloke involved with the regions, and he then dismissed it as probably not something that he can see happening anyway. He said there'd been exploratory talks, but I bet these regional guys meet with English counterparts all the time to discuss transfers and the like. Exploratory talks probably means 'discussed in passing' over coffee last time we met.

They probably just want to be included in the BT European deal

The BT Pied Piper...dancing a merry tune across Europe wiff Loadsa Money!!!!

Aye - while in the opposite corner we have Sky playing at an Ebeneezer Scrooge/Little Jack Horner amalgam. Paying a pittance but still eating the whole damn pie

There are a few comments, that the pro 12 is a mickey mouse/poopie league.

I have to disagree,

It gets slated for players being rested, but would this change in the Jeff?

as beshocked said on another thread

"Bear in mind that Brown,Barritt,Stevens,Hargreaves and Brits were all missing vs Wasps because they were resting."

The Pro 12 contains some of the best teams in Europe, that are on a par with any of the top teams in Europe.

If it is a Micky mouse league, how come th eregions don't dominate it? if everyone else i sresting players and not taking it seriuos then the regions would all be at top of the table?

Some Welsh fans never bought into it, or the regions, personally I believe that if a region won the H-cup they would change thier minds, and it would all be great.

I believe the RRW were wrong to say they were looking at joining the Jeff, even if it was just to strong arm the WRU. The FIR, SRU, IRFU cannot have been impressed, Esp when we need to stick together over Europe and other things to survive.

I never worried that the Provinces may leave the others to join the English, whereas the regions do worry me, and we know that if the Jeff had a choice of adding in the Provinces or the regions, who brings more to the party.

WRU and regions do need to get thier house in order, and promote a strong competation together with the other Unions.

Thing is an Anglo Welsh league makes complete logistical sense. The Welsh regions are very close to a key rugby area in England. Easy for supporters to get to away games, easier for opposition supporters get to your home games. Furthest away is still a lot closer than any of the Scottish sides. Strong historical rivalry with the country in general and a lot of the team individually. Generally it would be a good thing for both sides if developed from scratch with all of both sides on board...

...but that's not the case. It's not going to happen, it's certainly not going to happen without the WRU being fully behind it. I haven't read/heard the full interview but the actual quotes in the article read like confused ramblings, either due to lack of context or just general cowpat.

LondonTiger wrote:Aye - while in the opposite corner we have Sky playing at an Ebeneezer Scrooge/Little Jack Horner amalgam. Paying a pittance but still eating the whole damn pie

Under a Latvian rock: "Anyone there, loadsa money here??? Int'rested??"
Under a Serbian rock "Here kitty, kitty. Loadsa Money in a saucer if you want it?"

"We're in'trested! We're intr'ested," shouts the more familiar dwarves of Ireland, Scotland, Italy and Wales

"Yeah," mutters the Piper, "But yous want to be involved in the competition too. The money is on the table to buy yous out of it, if yis get my meaning. You can have the money but you have to sign away the deeds to the Cup first"

Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales throw the Piper a Hungarian rock. "Keep looking then"

Would a Anglo-Welsh league get slated for not having any history?

If the regions were the teams to join would they really get any more support?
OK they would attract a few thousand more traveling fans, but as Jeremy Guscott says;

"I think both are missing the crux of the matter and that's 'how do the regions get more supporters watching?' If the regions got gates like Irish counterparts Munster, Ulster and Leinster on a regular basis, they would be in a great position. "

Joining the English and leaving the Scots Italians and Irish, will only add a few 1000 to gates, is it really worth it.

And to be honest success in Europe is the only way to increase attendances. Ulster attendance dropped slighty when games were shown on BBC2NI, I suspect attendances will only increase slightly if regional games were not on Free to air. Ulsters attendances have mostly been sell outs this year, and it doesn't surprise me this comes after reaching a H-cup final, and supporters having a team that is amost the best in Europe and can Rival Leinster and Munster. I suspect if a region reached the H-cup final and beat a few English teams along the way, that there would be a massive jump in attandance and that region would average over 10,000 a game.

It's a horrible place to be agreeing with Jeremy Guscott, but he's absolutely right.

I really don't see any benefit to the Aviva by restructuring to allow the Welsh sides to participate, and it would tear apart the Rabo12 (not that the Welsh regions care).

The Irish clubs have more fans and have been considerably more successful than the Welsh clubs, so if there is to be a restructuring, it would make far more sense for the English clubs, who have the trump card in terms of TV cash, to invite Munster, Leinster and Ulster (I leave out Connacht deliberately) to join them rather than the Welsh regions.

I just can't see an upside for the Aviva sides, or any reason for any broadcaster to pay more money to see London Welsh play the Dragons.

The Welsh regions should not seek a quick fix here, they need to get the supporter numbers up, balance their books and become sustainable. Then they'll be in a position to make rugby-based decisions rather than chasing the closest quick buck. I suspect a number of Welsh internationals will either need to accept lower pay, or move to France and England as a result. So be it. That's the outcome of big clubs in France and England generating revenue through marketing etc. and developing their leagues into attractive products for TV rights.

Rather than throwing in the towel and joining them, we should compete and try to emulate them. The Rabo12 is getting better and better. Stick with it.

Assuming that this is not going to happen, we are now back at the fundamental question of how to make Welsh elite level club rugby work - the regions have clearly reached their attendance level but what are the other options?

Going back to a club based league - e.g. demerging Ospreys or Dragons to have a 10 team Welsh League will spread the talent and money too thinly, RGC in the North and the proposed Valleys region are at best long term prospects and more realistically unlikely to ever happen, so where to ?

Is the long term answer for everybodies sake a full on two or even threee division British Isles league?

I'd personally keep everything, including the HC and Amlin, exactly as they are, and stop messing about with the structure.

The reason it isn't working with the Welsh regions is that they spent too much money. The only way you fix that is by generating more revenue, or spending less, but either way balancing the books. Yes, it's all very boring and you can't stuff your squad full of ex-All Blacks and world class players, but if your average gates are a few thousand and most folk in your country don't give a stuff, then that's what happens. We have the same issue in Scotland. If the Welsh or Scots don't want professional rugby played in their country, then continue not to go and support your professional rugby teams.

The welsh are arguing over a top down structure that is simply not sustainable in the face of french and english bottom up structures.
NZ which have had central contracts are already looking at other options such as selling stakes in franchises and putting AIG on the AB shirt, because one organisation paying for everything will not work long term.

The welsh have sacrificed a historic domestic structure to chase a HC cup as if that is the pinnacle - it isn't - if you have sacrificed/diluted your grassroots.

BTW lack of potential HC winners hasn't hurt the welsh national side.

If there is a sabbatical from the HC, that might be a good thing for Unions to take stock on their domestic structures, to identify what is important.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'd personally keep everything, including the HC and Amlin, exactly as they are, and stop messing about with the structure.

The reason it isn't working with the Welsh regions is that they spent too much money. The only way you fix that is by generating more revenue, or spending less, but either way balancing the books. Yes, it's all very boring and you can't stuff your squad full of ex-All Blacks and world class players, but if your average gates are a few thousand and most folk in your country don't give a stuff, then that's what happens. We have the same issue in Scotland. If the Welsh or Scots don't want professional rugby played in their country, then continue not to go and support your professional rugby teams.

The problem with your proposal is that the league suffers. If Wales can't afford to keep welsh internationals or buy decent overseas players, then as you say we should allow them to leave. That's what the markets dictates, and that's business. However, at least your team gets a bit of a game against the Welsh at the moment (sorry, can't remember if you're Glasgow or Edinburgh?). If the regions just trot out the remaining dregs then of course it will be good for your team's and fan's egos trashing us, but lets be honest the league will suffer. The Irish posters on this site have in the past declared that we need ALL nations in the league to be strong, for the sake of the league and the sake of each other's development. Simply letting the Welsh regions fall to their knees and put out below par teams full of semi-pros and kids is not good for Wales or for the other nations, unless all you want is easy wins. Actually, it would probably be OK for Wales as the players would be elsewhere. But, do you really want to be facing weak opposition x 4 week in week out?

If the regions did break away to join the Jeff, without the WRU consenting to it, what would happen?

Would the WRU look at creating the four provincial sides (it orginally wanted), all of which would be under the control of the Welsh Rugby Union with the existing clubs acting as feeder clubs providing their best players to the provinces, and enter these in the Pro 12?

The regions play in England, but the Welsh prem teams feed into the new provincial sides rather than regional sides, WRU centrally contract the best Welsh players, and stop funding th ebreak away regions.

I believe if this were to happen, the Provinces would struggle to attract fans, and would require a lot of WRU support, but if it was these teams that were getting into Europe and started doing well there, and had th etop Welsh talent would supports start watching the Provinces instead of the regions, and if the WRU stopped giving the regions any funding, they would struggle in the English prem. Supporters would have a choice of watching poor regions struggling against Engliah teams, or Provinces pushing to be among th etop in Europe?

Why is it that Regions seem to think they hold the Public Popularity card when it comes to a face-off between themselves and the WRU.

The whole issue is the Lack of Public Support for the Regions. The whole issue is that their seasonal support amongst the Welsh public is small. The whole issue is that when it comes to Public Identification with a Rugby concept in Wales, the WRU seem to win that battle hands down.

The WRU do the Wales International bit - that's the bit that has Welsh players jumping out of their skins to be part of, that's the bit that has Welsh players playing with a drive and intensity they rarely bring to their Regions; that's the bit that has the Millennium full of rabid, cheering, singing, shouting, highly emotionally involved followers, that's the bit that's playing the winning brand of rugby, that's the bit bringing in the money.

So...in a Welsh popularity battle, who in truth will win it? Who would have public opinion on their side with their thoughts on how rugby in Wales could get even better, even bigger?

Griff wrote:The problem with your proposal is that the league suffers. If Wales can't afford to keep welsh internationals or buy decent overseas players, then as you say we should allow them to leave. That's what the markets dictates, and that's business. However, at least your team gets a bit of a game against the Welsh at the moment (sorry, can't remember if you're Glasgow or Edinburgh?). If the regions just trot out the remaining dregs then of course it will be good for your team's and fan's egos trashing us, but lets be honest the league will suffer. The Irish posters on this site have in the past declared that we need ALL nations in the league to be strong, for the sake of the league and the sake of each other's development. Simply letting the Welsh regions fall to their knees and put out below par teams full of semi-pros and kids is not good for Wales or for the other nations, unless all you want is easy wins. Actually, it would probably be OK for Wales as the players would be elsewhere. But, do you really want to be facing weak opposition x 4 week in week out?

I don't think this is entirely correct. Whilst I entirely agree that I don't want the Welsh teams to simply be whipping boys, I don't think that's what would transpire. That's certainly not the case with the Irish and Scottish teams, and Treviso seem to be improving year on year.

Asking sides not to go on spending rampages and blowing their budgets is not the same as saying they should just hire semi-pro and amateur players. Running a rugby club is a complex business, you have to balance the finances and ensure you get value for money from your signings, whilst at the same time making sure the result on the pitch are heading in the right direction. The Welsh regions have failed spectacularly in getting value from players, and international success combined with unsustainable wages in France have resulted in the best Welsh players looking to leave. The mistake would be to try and compete with these silly wages. Let them go, you can't. You can't now, and you still won't be able to even if for some daft reason the Aviva lets the unsupported Welsh regions join. The English clubs were smart to try and stop their clubs from racking up debts in a wage war with France, very smart. There was initially a big exodus to France for the money, but it's no longer the case now. In fact there's hardly a single player in Lancaster's squad playing in France, despite the higher wages on offer.

While I think Anglo-welsh games would be popular (especiallyin the SW of England), I do think that any sort of AW league should/could have been sorted out prior to regionalisation.

As it is now, the PL has evolved a lot, and would consider itself a real 'product', as would the regions. I just don't see how they could currently fit together, or frankly why either side would really want to.

For me there was a time for an AW league (or maybe a premiership and champsionship), with then 1 English and one Welsh club being relegated and replaced from what is now Nat league 1 and the welsh equivalent 3rd tier.

But the regions mean that isnt really workable, the focus should surely be to try and improve the regions through the Pro12/ whatever Euro cup emerges?

Bathman_in_London wrote:While I think Anglo-welsh games would be popular (especiallyin the SW of England), I do think that any sort of AW league should/could have been sorted out prior to regionalisation.

As it is now, the PL has evolved a lot, and would consider itself a real 'product', as would the regions. I just don't see how they could currently fit together, or frankly why either side would really want to.

For me there was a time for an AW league (or maybe a premiership and champsionship), with then 1 English and one Welsh club being relegated and replaced from what is now Nat league 1 and the welsh equivalent 3rd tier.

But the regions mean that isnt really workable, the focus should surely be to try and improve the regions through the Pro12/ whatever Euro cup emerges?

I agree completely here. It seems impossible to me to join the two as they're not the same things - it's apples and oranges. How do you join clubs with regions, ring fenced teams with teams in a relegation enabled league, teams with different 'masters' and rules on their relationships with them (PRL vs that thing that is yet to meet in Wales) - how do you knit that lot together? The answer for me is simple: you don't! The Pro12 is the right fit for me - apples and apples if you will. It's regions and provinces in it together (OK I know that Edin and Glas are not really regions but they represent the whole of Scotland for the purpose of rugby), heavily union involved teams with others in that situation, all ringfenced for their protection, like with like.

So, the answer is to stay. However, in 10 years we've got little to show for actually growing the game in Wales. Therefore, it may have gone as far as it can in terms of interest and crowd numbers. If that is the case then we may continue to struggle for the foreseeable future to hold onto decent players. From a league point of view, as I said earlier, the other nations will then have to entertain poorer standard teams which is not good for their development either. An example of this is George North, apparently now announced as signing for Northampton. So, instead of facing George North next season the Scarlets opposition will have some youngster to contend with instead - probably not the best HC preparation, or not as good as it could have been. And that trend is set to continue. So, it may actually be a bad thing for the Irish, Scots and Italians that the welsh DO stay! Great for their league positions mind!

If the regions did leave the Pro 12 for the Jeff, would some Jeff clubs that feel they are being pushed out join Pro 12?

London Irish, London Welsh, Maybe Newcastle?

Personally I think the regions are saying about joining jeff, to get at the WRU, and the Jeff are mentioning looking into it to devide the Celtic Unions over Europe. Nothing will come of it except the IRFU, SRU and FIR will distrust the Welsh regions, and add pressure on WRU to get its house in order as we need to work together, for Pro 12 and Europe.

Ps If the regions did leave the Pro 12 for the Jeff and alinged themselves with them over Europe. I don't think I would ever forgive them.