Has SCW Lost His Edge?

"Just read this ,whatever stats say rugby is v simple you either win or lose , life is a lot better when you win ! http://bit.ly/YNEBdh "

Thus spake the once meticulous Sir Clive Woodward via Twitter. He who heralded in a new era of rugby professionalism in England and sheparded England to the nothern hemisphere's only RWC.

Many people believed he'd lost the plot by 2004, lost his crown in 2005 and lost his way thereafter. But now back in the rugby limelight seen hosting Sky Sports as the senior pundit should we expect more wisdom and the attention to detail for which he was once renowned than such a gross simplification of the game? Or is this merely a by-product of Twitter's insane character limit and the general dumbing down of society?

I don't know about losing his edge but he does appear to have lost all his vowels.

He never had it

He simply brought professional fitness training to a very good group of england players He added a bit because of that but thats all - a very overrated coach

GloriousEmpire wrote:"Just read this ,whatever stats say rugby is v simple you either win or lose , life is a lot better when you win ! http://bit.ly/YNEBdh "

Thus spake the once meticulous Sir Clive Woodward via Twitter. He who heralded in a new era of rugby professionalism in England and sheparded England to the nothern hemisphere's only RWC.

Many people believed he'd lost the plot by 2004, lost his crown in 2005 and lost his way thereafter. But now back in the rugby limelight seen hosting Sky Sports as the senior pundit should we expect more wisdom and the attention to detail for which he was once renowned than such a gross simplification of the game? Or is this merely a by-product of Twitter's insane character limit and the general dumbing down of society?

At a glance...I'd say Twitter had a big part to play in his few words. Not that I'd be interested too much in listening to many more of his words, but that's just a personal thing.

And as for wishing Twitter had a larger Character limit????? Are you mad???!!!! Are you stark raving mad???? Kim Kardashian telling you who she met for coffee, in novel form?????

Don't knock Kim Kardashian she is a fox,her backside makes me want to rip off my shirt and howl at the moon .

Anyway back to the rugby,I like Clive he seems a real genuine bloke who has the right way of telling it how it is,
as for his coaching credentials i guess he did bring a lot for all of NH rugby,
he brought a real professional attitude,
but he ain't no magician!
He had a fit efficient team with a sprinkle of world class players that played dam hard.

As for his winning is all that matters he is right isn't he? you don't play lose do you?

Also, he forgot about the times when you draw.

He is right...of course he is. Stats never won a game. You just have to look at Ireland v Scotland latest encounter to prove that one.

Forget stats and play to win. Good man, Clive.

I refuse to refer to this smug Meat trombone soloist as a Knight of the Realm. It is an insult to all those who have earned it.

As many have said my old girl could have taken that England team to the WC. Woodward was a team manager rather than a coach. Washing the kit and making sure everyone had their passports were his most telling contributions.

Every time I see his creepy slimy grin I just want to slap him.

Anyone who presides over the biggest Lions debacle and defeats in history and comes back calling it a success, is to say the least, questionable. I make no bones about having never liked the guy as I see him as sycophantic in his views, never accepting any blame and riding high on the backs of people like Hill, Johnson and Dallaglio. A person who takes another sychophantic self-driven egotist like Alastair Campbell on a Lions tour only adds to my view. As a pundit, he suggested England's bench would come and and be a lot stronger and see out the game against Wales. We all get it wrong and I can accept that and after the defeat he was trying to then jump on the Wales bandwagon.

I appreciate the views of those that love and respect him but I see him as an egostistical meglomaniac who has no boundaries or self-governance when it comes to his views and opinions. He remains a pseudo-psychologist living off the back of past glorys acheived by some of the greatest players that have ever worn the english jersey - Johnson the english leader is the man that should have been knighted

Clive Woodward was in charge of perhaps the greatest England side ever. You can argue how much credit Woodward deserves but winning the WC is a big achievement.

Since 2003 Woodward has dined on this success, dipping into various sports - riding on the gravy train. If he wants to be taken seriously he needs to come back to coaching - still so much that Woodward needs to prove in my eyes.

I think Woodward did really well in helping bring a lot of talented players that could have been irrevocably damaged from the 98 tour of hell into the best team in the world, and having the sense to implement a game plan that played to England's strengths yet knew the team's limitations. He was a fantastic motivator too. But the game evolved away from his strengths-it was just starting to in 03-and he didn't evolve enough himself to continue his success and hence he tarnished his legacy in 04 and 05. He is an arrogant person though and I lost a lot of respect for him during the 05 tour, first with selections then with his handling of some situations (the NZRU were just as bad on occasion too). The post match interview after the second Lions test smacked of petulance and arrogance and I think provided sufficient motivation for the All Blacks to finish them off soundly in Auckland.

Nice post Disney

Stay in the job/at the top for long enough and you'll get burned at some point. Can anyone name a coach who hasn't significant judgement of error?

Henry - Damaged Wales post Lions and the 01 lions tour (probably the most talented pool of players since the 70s).

SCW - Fell out of love with his RFU paymasters and his 05 lions tour wasn't his finest hour.

But lets set something straight... what SCW did in 05 was nothing what other coaches had done before... McGeechan had just as many screw ups as he had successes and like SCW with ENG he rode his luck with players talent.... if you look at his record in terms of team selection in his 4 lions series he only got the 1st test selection right once... and nothing to do with victories and losses... the team selections in 89, 93 and 09 in the first test were laughable.

I don't know one coach that isn't tainted by something... most are lucky to get out with a good record and to have created enough winning memories to last well into the future.
What we can say about SCW is that whilst he wasn't everyone's cup of tea, he brought a professionalism to ENG that few if any would have done so had they been coach at the time and the rest of the world took note and caught up.

I doubt ENG would have won the RWC with another coach.... you could probably argue that ENG would have won the RWC with all bar 1 or 2 players (Johnson and potentially Wilkinson/Hill).

So I would say that over the course of his 97-04 journey he was one of the 2-4 vital cogs in the England machine.

fa0019 wrote:
What we can say about SCW is that whilst he wasn't everyone's cup of tea, he brought a professionalism to ENG that few if any would have done so had they been coach at the time and the rest of the world took note and caught up.

I agree, and I'd also argue that the degree of professionalism he brought to England hasn't been seen since (in the England rugby team). He does strike me as an egomaniac - but then being an egomaniac and succesful are not mutually exclusive.

To his credit, while his foray into football was seemingly a waste of time, and his management of the Lions a disaster - he has also had more succes in his current role with the British Olympic lot. So credit where it's due, it isn't just his England record he is living off. He is a good man manager and good on the organisational side. I'd much rather have him in Rob Andrew's job than anyone else.

I find it interesting when it's suggested anyone could have led England to that World Cup. Over the last ten years, it's not only Woodward's reputation which has seen a good deal of downward revisionism but also that of the his players.

In the South, for instance, there are a fair few who are unprepared to credit any 2003 England backs, aside from Jason Robinson, with any talent. Wilkinson is frequently regarded as one-dimensional and Dawson no better than mediocre. Catt is dismissed as a someone who couldn't cut it in South Arica - and a Lomu doormat to boot - while Tindall is just seen as a bosher. Greenwood sometimes gets praise but you often get the sense that he isn't really remembered very clearly. The same for Cohen and Lewsey.

The back row and Johnson usually get respect but, even though the pack is credited as a key factor behind England's success, there's not a rush to include too many members of the other half of that eight in any lists of the game's greats. Vickery is now remembered as the man who gave away serial penalties to the Beast in 2009, and even a record capped forward like Leonard is seen as someone who is one of the game's nice guys rather than a top player.

Mike Catt was a very good player... and one player in particular who I looked up to as a teenager. However its not certain whether he would have got on in SA or not.

It is a viable question to say he may have never been capped.

Firstly he was from PE and played for the Eastern Province... not one of the stronger sides. He is on English origin... they do tend to struggle in an Afrikaans dominated sport as much due to the language barrier (all rugby in SA is Afrikaans) as talent etc.

Also at his peak time SA had some very good centres in Japie Mulder, Du Wet Barry, Hennie Le Roux & Robbie Fleck etc... all very good players.

The boks don't tend to like mavericks that much. Montegomery got booted out very quickly for being one and had to come back and eat humble pie before getting selected again.

In my opinion he would have been capped... but probably wouldn't have got his first until perhaps 1996-97 and probably would have been left by the side by 2001... so at best it would have been a 4 year career.

In essence just like politics, most if not all careers end in failure. They almost all stay on too long.... meaning they are a shadow of their former self/end up getting a kicking. There is nothing wrong with that... its the natural order of things. Vickery was a beast for a very long time but he got his fair share of hidings... in 99 SA tore him apart just like Beast got one on him 10 years later.

What Woodward did well (which I thought was great) was ensuring England had the best preparation possible. I'm sure I read that he paid to switch hotels somewhere on tour before, as he felt the one they had was substandard.

His buzzwords like that TCUP (thinking clearly under pressure) etc worked pretty well for them too, in the buildup to and during the 2003 World Cup.

Risca Rev wrote:What Woodward did well (which I thought was great) was ensuring England had the best preparation possible. I'm sure I read that he paid to switch hotels somewhere on tour before, as he felt the one they had was substandard.

His buzzwords like that TCUP (thinking clearly under pressure) etc worked pretty well for them too, in the buildup to and during the 2003 World Cup.

Yeah he was put in the 3* Holiday Inn in Cape Town by SARU in 1999 or 2000 (previously it was home unions who organised accomodation)... whilst the SA team stayed in a 5* hotel. Apparently he took one look walked out... its a real dive in a bad part of the CBD. Then went and booked out the Mount Nelson (traditionally the finest CT hotel) on his personal credit card... big dog! Must have been some bill... 50+ odd rooms.

Not sure how on earth he could characterise the 05 Lions as a success when they were a debacle in every way. But if anyone could it would be Mr Spin, he is the rugby equivalent of Tony Blair. Now desperately trying to make himself relevant so he can cash in on 2015, his comments during the 6 Nations were almost entirely preceded with 'When i was coach of England'....for those that weren't aware or interested in his achievements which are now history. Unfortunatley he will be doing this for the next 2 years and then one hopes he will only appear occasionally on a Question of Sport, dropping Daws to team member while he skippers the team.

Fail to agree that Wales circa 2001 had much talent at all.

2002 six nations was insanely awful for Wales.