The Losing Edge.

It's another Monday morning after another dismal 6N from Scotland after another false dawn and I'm on the forum seeing another "Kick Scotland out of the 6N" thread and I'm again asking myself if we rugby fans have the right to place ourselves on such a high pedestal of good natured fans? Some of the comments I have seen on here are really unkind, kicking people whilst they are down and on the ground is really low, anyway I digress.

I'm not sure if I saw another Scotland dark horses thread but certainly after another positive Autumn series there was cause for optimism for Scotland before the 6N kicked off this year. However another 7 weeks down the line I'm again commenting on another "Where did it all go wrong" Scotland thread.

I'm pretty gutted to be honest. All the other nations that post on here have all had something to cheer about in their adult lives as far as the sport of rugby is concerned. Scotland however just seem to have a Losing Edge that can't seem to be shaken off.

Why is that the case? I don't really want to go into the details of what went wrong and how it can be improved we already have a thread for that and to be honest I don't really like what I'm reading as grim acceptance takes hold.

However Scottish rugby is in jeopardy if this losing edge trend continues. You can't pick what country you support.

I’m a rugby fan through and through, but I spent 80 quid to go an watch Scotland on Saturday and I really find myself losing faith in the game that defines me as a person. It is so utterly deflating.

I look at the draw for next years six nations and to be honest I’m fearing another white wash already. We have England first up followed by Wales in Cardiff and then Italy in Rome. I’m calling it now. Another wooden spoon is on the cards before any squad is selected.

I keep hearing the pundits telling me the 6N tournament is all about “momentum” if that is the case why do we never get Italy first at Murrayfield? How is the schedule determined?

Let’s be honest that is the game we are most likely to win and it would be nice to get a bit of “momentum” from the start. In the last few years our openers have been either against England at Twickenham Ireland in Dublin or France in Paris.

There was a genuine feeling of optimism and hope for Scotland this year, a new coach, a Glasgow team doing well in the pro12 and starting to make their mark in Europe. A crop of players who really seem to be international class (no Hugo Southwells or Graeme Morrisons) and once again we are back to square one.

I have no real idea of what this post is intending to do, I guess I’m just fed up of always supporting a lost cause.

One thing is for sure, I'll be a lot more like RiskySports in the future. I'll be in the camp of "We are pish at rugby" until it is proven otherwise.

Hi RR, I feel for you, I really do, I remeber watching Wales play South Africa in Pretoria during our dark days, they put over 90 points on us that day, we could not win a 5N for toffee, and as soon as we had anyone decent they were signed by rugby league sides.

But, first things first, Glasgow doing well is quite the red herring, you hve some quality players in that side but the best one's are not Scottish, they are Fijian and South African, the same with Edinburgh that side is filled with South Africans, you only have TWO pro sides, they should be full of Scottish players, but they are not.

Secondly, the Autumn series was a myth, you lost to a second string All Blacks side, and if that happened in Wales there would have been uproar, also you shipped 30 points against an average Argentina side, allbeit you thrashed the mighty Tonga, but on the back of all that you were all calling for three wins in the 6N, this was never going to happen, and if you look back at the optimism threads from December you will see me actually saying the same thing on them.

The thing is, Scotland do have some very good players, but they do not have enough depth, and the longer you fill your only two pro sides with NSQ players then Scotland on an international level will continue to struggle. There is no reason why Scotland should not have at least four pro teams, we have them in Wales and we are even making a cause for a fifth side, and we only have half the population that you have.

As an Ireland fan I grew up vicariously enjoying the victories of Scotland when they had the Hastings brothers, David Sole, John Jeffry, Finlay Calder etc etc. Hard men who never took a backward step.

For Ireland all we had was Simon Geoghegan - and he rarely got the ball.

Professionalism (the provinces system worked well) and a good coaches (Gatland and especially EOS), together with a better than normal crop of players managed to turn our fortunes around. Success has bred further success, as interest in the game has grown.

Unfortunately for Scotland I don't see how they are going to break the cycle. Failure also breeds failure and disenchantment.

It's not the Scottish players or the revolving door of coaches.  It's the SRU and merely two Professional sides.

Not enough.

Rectify that and the road to recovery begins.  But Scottish rugby fans have to be the vocal ones now and demand things change.  Not in the team, not another coach, not other assistant coaches.  Real SRU led change to bring about a bigger selection of players to choose from.

Even in terms of a training set up - it's so difficult to train to the skill levels required when you only have two sides to pick training squads from.  The real importance of more sides is the quality of training the actual Internationals are exposed to.

LordDowlais wrote:Hi RR, I feel for you, I really do, I remeber watching Wales play South Africa in Pretoria during our dark days, they put over 90 points on us that day, we could not win a 5N for toffee, and as soon as we had anyone decent they were signed by rugby league sides.

But, first things first, Glasgow doing well is quite the red herring, you hve some quality players in that side but the best one's are not Scottish, they are Fijian and South African, the same with Edinburgh that side is filled with South Africans, you only have TWO pro sides, they should be full of Scottish players, but they are not.

Secondly, the Autumn series was a myth, you lost to a second string All Blacks side, and if that happened in Wales there would have been uproar, also you shipped 30 points against an average Argentina side, allbeit you thrashed the mighty Tonga, but on the back of all that you were all calling for three wins in the 6N, this was never going to happen, and if you look back at the optimism threads from December you will see me actually saying the same thing on them.

The thing is, Scotland do have some very good players, but they do not have enough depth, and the longer you fill your only two pro sides with NSQ players then Scotland on an international level will continue to struggle. There is no reason why Scotland should not have at least four pro teams, we have them in Wales and we are even making a cause for a fifth side, and we only have half the population that you have.

population is almost entirely irrelevant. whats relevant is numbers of players. in wales rugby is played at every school ? in scotland probably less than 20pc. thats the key problem. minority sport.

alive555 wrote:thats the key problem. minority sport..

Well there you are then, you have just answered your own countrymans question, tell him. But I do not know what difference it being a minority sport it makes, there is only football above that in Scotland, and lets be honest, you do not pull up any trees in that sport anymore either. There should be more than enough in Scotland to have more than 2 Pro rugby sides, there is probably enough in Edinburgh and Glasgow alone.

LordDowlais wrote:

alive555 wrote:thats the key problem. minority sport..

Well there you are then, you have just answered your own countrymans question, tell him. But I do not know what difference it being a minority sport it makes, there is only football above that in Scotland, and lets be honest, you do not pull up any trees in that sport anymore either. There should be more than enough in Scotland to have more than 2 Pro rugby sides, there is probably enough in Edinburgh and Glasgow alone.

There is very little I would agree with you on Dowlais, but this is 100% accurate.

As a fifer I have a default interest in Edinburgh rugby. The Caledonia Reds were however the pro team for my "district".

To see a third pro team in Aberdeen/Inverness IMO should be the SRU's top priority, especially since our U20s have had a very good U20 6N but nowhere to go to develop their skills.

LordDowlais wrote:

alive555 wrote:thats the key problem. minority sport..

Well there you are then, you have just answered your own countrymans question, tell him. But I do not know what difference it being a minority sport it makes, there is only football above that in Scotland, and lets be honest, you do not pull up any trees in that sport anymore either. There should be more than enough in Scotland to have more than 2 Pro rugby sides, there is probably enough in Edinburgh and Glasgow alone.

in 2011 wales has 22k senior male players vs scotlands 11k .

wales has similar numbers to ireland, so we dont have nearly enough players at grassroot level

alive555 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

alive555 wrote:thats the key problem. minority sport..

Well there you are then, you have just answered your own countrymans question, tell him. But I do not know what difference it being a minority sport it makes, there is only football above that in Scotland, and lets be honest, you do not pull up any trees in that sport anymore either. There should be more than enough in Scotland to have more than 2 Pro rugby sides, there is probably enough in Edinburgh and Glasgow alone.

in 2011 wales has 22k senior male players vs scotlands 11k .

wales has similar numbers to ireland, so we dont have nearly enough players at grassroot level

And you will not ever have much more either, unless they have somewhere to go, you have two pro sides, and if they only allowed Scottish players in those sides it would not be enough, but not only do you have only two sides, those two sides are being padded out with NSQ players or non Scottish players looking to get SQ on residency, if this was happening in Wales their would be mutiny.

Scotland rugby has been in decline ever since devolution

just saying!!!

Scotland don't seem to have a solid foundation or structure in my opinion.

Is it a coincidence that the top 3 in the 6 nations also have the best coaches?

Organisation has been the key.

Look at the French - they have quality players but they are headless chickens because of their coach.

Vern Cotter has done a poor job so far. He doesn't have the established squads of Ireland and Wales, the strength of depth of England or the large playing pool of France but he has a squad that should be familiar with each other.


I think the Scottish hopes rest on Cotter building up confidence slowly and sticking with a gameplan.

Absolutely nonsencical to leave out Kelly Brown.

LordDowlais wrote:

alive555 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

alive555 wrote:thats the key problem. minority sport..

Well there you are then, you have just answered your own countrymans question, tell him. But I do not know what difference it being a minority sport it makes, there is only football above that in Scotland, and lets be honest, you do not pull up any trees in that sport anymore either. There should be more than enough in Scotland to have more than 2 Pro rugby sides, there is probably enough in Edinburgh and Glasgow alone.

in 2011 wales has 22k senior male players vs scotlands 11k .

wales has similar numbers to ireland, so we dont have nearly enough players at grassroot level

And you will not ever have much more either, unless they have somewhere to go, you have two pro sides, and if they only allowed Scottish players in those sides it would not be enough, but not only do you have only two sides, those two sides are being padded out with NSQ players or non Scottish players looking to get SQ on residency, if this was happening in Wales their would be mutiny.

of course , that's why u need a double edged strategy , increasing players at state schools and another pro team, within 2-3 years max.

I would love to see a third and fourth scottish pro team.

But how would it be funded? Didnt the Borders go under because it was financially unsustainable?

You could look to create a "Team Scotland" entity, a cash cow to fund your domestic teams, but you need a successful side to do that and full stadiums for 4 internationals each autumn and the commercial revenue that comes with success from that.

Bit of a chicken and egg scenario

GavinDragon wrote:You could look to create a "Team Scotland" entity, a cash cow to fund your domestic teams, but you need a successful side to do that and full stadiums for 4 internationals each autumn and the commercial revenue that comes with success from that.

Totally agree, people mock us here in Wales for having a fourth AI, but the money generated from that single game goes a long way to funding dual contracts and trickling down through Welsh rugby, the first thing Scotland need in my opinion is a quick reduction on NSQ players and residency players in their two pro teams, give people who play rugby in Scotland something to aim for, then when there are more players coming through then the argument for a third region will start picking up speed, there is no reason why this should not work in Scotland and Italy, Wales are a small country, but we have four regions, possibly a fifth when North Wales gets up to speed, we cannot keep having a 6N where Scotland, a supposedly tier one rugby nation is in danger of falling out of the top ten and getting beat every game, I want the Scotland of old back, when we used to go to Murrifield and worry about the result, now teams go there expecting to win, Scotland and Italy have more to offer than they currently are offering.

LordDowlais wrote:

Totally agree, people mock us here in Wales for having a fourth AI,

The Welsh mock themselves for having it, Lord. The complaints always mostly come from the Welsh themselves who feel it mucks up their Pro12 and ERCC/HEC ambitions. They see it as a distraction and an excuse by an uncaring WRU to make more money. That's what I've mostly listened to. I don't think anyone else has enough interest to 'mock' the extra game.

I was reading the Tom English article on the BBC about Scotland (click here) and he mentioned Simon Geoghegan saying they'd be better playing Zimbabwe every year than playing in the Six Nations, which I didn't know about. But I know being an Ireland fan in the nineties was equally bleak, given my dad and brother telling me all about it. I was lucky to get into rugby just as the corner was being turned for Ireland.

The difference between now and then is the IRFU actually taking professionalism seriously and putting good structures in place. It seems hard to see what could enable the SRU to do the same, but I do feel strongly you need to change a lot of things behind the scenes regarding the organisation and without that even a good coach like Vern Cotter can only do so much. Obviously the omission of Brown and Barclay is on him (or on Scott Johnson, who would be one of the organisational impedances you need to remove) but apart from that the players aren't really there, the pathways aren't there to develop them, the numbers aren't there at grassroots.

You will feel the benefit of Glasgows success in coming years, I'm sure of it, but the four nations ahead of you in this hemisphere all have multiple sides of that quality.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Totally agree, people mock us here in Wales for having a fourth AI,

The Welsh mock themselves for having it, Lord.  The complaints always mostly come from the Welsh themselves who feel it mucks up their Pro12 and ERCC/HEC ambitions.  They see it as a distraction and an excuse by an uncaring WRU to make more money.  That's what I've mostly listened to.  I don't think anyone else has enough interest to 'mock' the extra game.

Well the 'trickle down' of dual contracts has only just begun. Before then the perception was that that money wasn't trickling down at all.

Notch wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Totally agree, people mock us here in Wales for having a fourth AI,

The Welsh mock themselves for having it, Lord.  The complaints always mostly come from the Welsh themselves who feel it mucks up their Pro12 and ERCC/HEC ambitions.  They see it as a distraction and an excuse by an uncaring WRU to make more money.  That's what I've mostly listened to.  I don't think anyone else has enough interest to 'mock' the extra game.

Well the 'trickle down' of dual contracts has only just begun. Before then the perception was that that money wasn't trickling down at all.

Slightly more complicated than that again. You have different types of rugby fans in wales. Team Wales only (pink cowboy hat brigade), regional die hards, disenfranchised valleys fans, local club fans, all vying for their piece of the pie who struggle to see the big picture

But anyway this is not about Wales - I really hope Scotland can turn it around

I don't think Scotland played that bad really. They came pretty close in a couple of games. Is it down to fitness? or is it that other teams play for the full eighty minutes?

When I was at the game at the week I have to say if I was scottish I'd be wondering;
- who is the true pack leader?
- does Laidlaw have the respect of the pack to be captain?
- Is the future in Finn Russell? His mistakes are excused as exhuberance and a kid having a go, but I have to say from watching him live I really wonder if he will his decision making improve as he matures or if the off-the-cuff stuff from him is a sign that he'll remain an erratic player. Early days I know, but he doesn't strike me as a sexton/ford type of character for the future.
- Hamilton over the course of a game does more damage to his own team through penalties and lack of execution than he disrupts an opposition. He also eats up any credits that a referee might be holding for a team.
- The Scottish centres look class. That has to be the future. Hogg entering the line off both these guys has to be the priority going forward.
- Two professional squads feeding the national side can't work long term, or even medium term. You need to always have 2 test quality players playing week in week out for each position. You also need another option that will do a job if required. And you have to build in contingency for injury. Impossible for two clubs to cover all this.
- As a place to go, the stadium is class, the banter on the day was amazing, the pomp and ceremony was superb, 'flower of scotland' raises the hairs on you back as it's belted out with everyone in the stadium standing 8 feet tall roaring to the rafters. Also they kept serving till the team was receiving the trophy and food and everything was still open at that stage as well. It must have made an absolute fortune. Where does that money go?

I've seen a few negative comments about Cotter and perhaps he should have pulled in a few of the more experienced players like Brown and Barclay to blend with the youngsters. However, it doesn't look like just coaching and selection issues to me. Perhaps a fundamental grassroots problem and approach in the professional era. The SRU should take accountability and look to themselves for a turn around plan?