Who is the top Irish Province?

Currently 3 of the 4 can make a decent claim to be the current top Province

Munster
Have done the best in Europe, into H-cup semi-Finals, but 6th in the Leauge and unlikly to make play offs.

Ulster
Went out in Quarter final in H-cup, 2nd in League and should be in the play offs.

Leinster
Went out earlest in H-cup at group stage, but are into semi final of Almin, 3rd in League and should be in the play offs.

Maybe an inter pro table would help?

Ulster 20 v 19 Munster
Connacht 34 v 6 Leinster (BP)
Ulster 25 v 0 Connacht
Leinster 30 v 21 Munster
Ulster 27 v 19 Leinster
Munster 16-12 Connacht
Munster 24-10 Ulster
Leinster 17-0 Connacht
Munster 22-0 Connacht
Leinster 18-22 Ulster

Still to play
Munster V Leinster
Connacht V Ulster

Team p w l BP Points
Ulster 5 4 1 0 16
Munster 5 3 2 1 13
Leinster 5 2 3 1 9
Connacht 5 1 4 2 6


So inter-pro title is between Ulster and Munster.

Honestly I'm not sure who the top team in Ireland are, the good news is the three are among the top in Europe.

I'd prob still say Leinster are the top team but they are not as far and away the best team as last year, it's close, Ulster 2nd and Munster 3rd, but again its close.

What do you think?

Ulster, Munster, Leinster and connacht in that order ....... in my opinion of course

Leinster, Ulster, Munster and Connacht.

Leinster have had a poor season by their standards but are still in the hunt for two cups and therefore in a slightly better position than the other top two Irish teams.

Ulster are arguably better than Leinster this season but a poor showing not helped by Roman Poite v Saracens has exposed some frailties and scuppered their claims as top Irish province.

Munster have easily been the worst in the league out of the top three Irish teams and had the easiest group in the Hcup and an easy quarter. The match away to clermont will reveal a lot. They deserve a lot of credit for getting to the semis though.

Would agree with guns. Will see at the end of the season. If Leinster win anything they will remain top dogs unless munster win the HEC which with the greatest respect to 3/4 semi finalists looks like Clermonts already.

If ulster win the Rabo they might have a case. I fancy Leinster in the amlinn thou. Anyone have a sf lineup for that?

Standulstermen wrote:Would agree with guns. Will see at the end of the season. If Leinster win anything they will remain top dogs unless munster win the HEC which with the greatest respect to 3/4 semi finalists looks like Clermonts already.

If ulster win the Rabo they might have a case. I fancy Leinster in the amlinn thou. Anyone have a sf lineup for that?

Leinster v Biarritz
Perpignan v Stade

As for the OP - I'll tell ya at the end of the season

Definitely fancy Leinster for the amlin. Looks good for Connacht to then if that rule still applies

That rule does indeed apply.

Leinster v Stade final please. Contepomi and Nacewa to sign off their European careers in the same game.

Paul O'Connell is the top Irish province.

Also, I don't see how Munster's QF was 'easy'. There might have been harder ties like Clermont or Toulon away, but Quins are still a good side. It seems very begrudging to start calling that an 'easy' draw.

Mickado wrote:That rule does indeed apply.

Leinster v Stade final please. Contepomi and Nacewa to sign off their European careers in the same game.

That would be good alright. No spitting though please.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Paul O'Connell is the top Irish province.

Also, I don't see how Munster's QF was 'easy'. There might have been harder ties like Clermont or Toulon away, but Quins are still a good side. It seems very begrudging to start calling that an 'easy' draw.

It was an easy draw and yes Quins were one of the worst sides in the quarters.

Saracens and Leicester are ahead of them in the league. Toulon and Clermont are better than any English side.

Id also rather play Quins than Ulster or Montpellier.

you might be right about POC though.

Munster are the only one of the 'won it before' sides still in the HC. And it was about the only 'won it before' side that everyone expected to get kicked out earliest. I actually love that Europe's bright new sides look over their shoulder and yep; boring, ancient, dinosaur Munster are there again with them.... great stuff.

HC remains the toughest thing to do in Europe and therefore Munster have a lot of points amassed in getting to the semi-finals, paticularly given their season form as a whole. I think that behind the scenes in training they're much further along their development journey than they've been displaying in Pro12. I think next year will give us a more open assessment of just how much Penney has been doing.

Leinster had a disastrous start to the season and it hasn't imroved so much as the season goes on. Yes, the results have improved and there is much more solidity to their structures again... but they haven't been the force they were. They're in a mix of very good sides at the top of Pro12 but they don't hold their head above it this season.
But, they beat Wasps on their home turf by the biggest scoreline and the biggest margin of 20 points that Wasps endured this season - with them (Wasps) perhaps playing out of their skins to compete with the HC outgoing champs. I think Saracens, Harlequins and Northampton are the only sides to beat them at home in the AP and that was only by a few points, Northampton winning by the higest margin of 9.

So... Leinster's season probably started 'late'!!!! - but they're formidable still... they still have teeth.

Ulster, well, I can't really say what happened against Saracens because I was unable to watch it (busy!). The result shocked me in the sense that it was reported to have been pretty much a stroll for Saracens. That surprised me given Ulster's season to date and it annoyed me too. How could the HC carrot have been a stroll for Saracens? Are they really so good?
Anyway, Ulster and Glagow have been the impressive sides in Pro12 this season, Ulster being particularly consistent in the first half. But is that Ulster's highest levels they are burning at when good or is there a little being reserved in the Munster's and Leinster's tanks? How good is good when you don't know how hard sides are genuinely hitting. Munster for a fact could have played like they did against Harlequins more than they have this season - I just don't believe that game came from passion and nothing else. Plus, they're a very long term planning side. They might be at the beginning of another cycle of long thinking and holding some cards close to their chests.

I'd say Leinster...just on inherent ability still. Munster just next and then Ulster just next in that order. Nothing much in it. But Munster are still in HC though - so by right, they're top in my eyes. That's never a walk.

I don't think any of the Qfinals were easy, each team deserved to be there, and away from home in the Q-finals against anyone is never an easy task.

I think each Province (except Connacht) can put forward a reasonable arguement, why they are the top team in Ireland.

Munster to win H-cup
Ulster to win Pro 12
Leinster to win Almin

that would be good.

I think the good thing is that we can have this debate at all. The reality is that there is very little between the top 3 provinces now and you could give a fairly compelling argument as to which side is top dog.

I do genuinely believe that Ulster player for player are currently best of the 3 but I can't help feeling that our trophy cabinate desperately needs padding out ....

We still have a bit to go and need to learn how to peak for the big games and business end of the season.

rodders wrote:I think the good thing is that we can have this debate at all. The reality is that there is very little between the top 3 provinces now and you could give a fairly compelling argument as to which side is top dog.

I do genuinely believe that Ulster player for player are currently best of the 3 but I can't help feeling that our trophy cabinate desperately needs padding out ....

We still have a bit to go and need to learn how to peak for the big games and business end of the season.

Well I suppose given how amazing some Ulster fans think Jarrod Payne is I'm not surprised you think that man for man Ulster have the best players.

Ulster might have a couple more world class players such as Bowe, Ferris, Best, Muller, Piennar than Leinster or Munster but on the whole I dont think they have better player than Leinster anyway.

Let's not bicker, guys. A weekend Irish rugby needed (depite the Ulster blip - they'll hit back I'm sure)..and if things panned out Kingshu's way, I wouldn't be so unhappy. Although, I do have to say, getting the dometic competition would be a big thing for Leinster this year. That was my priority over the Amlin....until I saw them taking it so seriously!

I'm guessing you haven't watched much of Payne Guns?

rodders wrote:I'm guessing you haven't watched much of Payne Guns?

Yes I have. He is good but grossly over rated in Ulster.

The great thing for me is that is we did try to do a player for player, we would now have to include Connacht, as they have some very good players.

next season will prob be
Henshaw, O'Halloran, E. Griffin, McSharry, Carr, Parks, Marmion; Wilkinson, Harris-Wright, White, Aly Muldowney, Craig Clarke ,Muldoon, Faloon, Naoupu

The Backs are all Irish, and all young players, in the half backs Marmion looks very good.

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:I'm guessing you haven't watched much of Payne Guns?

Yes I have. He is good but grossly over rated in Ulster.

Fair enough, I believe he's the best outside back in Ireland by a country mile. That probably just reinforces your opinion though .

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:I'm guessing you haven't watched much of Payne Guns?

Yes I have. He is good but grossly over rated in Ulster.

Fair enough, I believe he's the best outside back in Ireland by a country mile. That probably just reinforces your opinion though .

Haha yes it does. From Ulster Id much rather take Bowe, Trimble or even Gilroy to Leinster. All better players IMO.

Bowe for example has scored 26 tries in 51 International matches for Ireland. That is an absolutly incredible strike rate.

Payne will never be that good.

I’d have Payne in a New York minute (ohhhhhhhohohhhhhhhhhhhhh)

He just glides along.

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:I'm guessing you haven't watched much of Payne Guns?

Yes I have. He is good but grossly over rated in Ulster.

Fair enough, I believe he's the best outside back in Ireland by a country mile. That probably just reinforces your opinion though .

He's lost a lot of pace after his injury. Looks like he is running in slow motion.
More than makes up for it with his silky skills and his rugby brain though..... A bit like oh.......BOD maybe?

Payne is clearly the best outside back in Ulster's squad and the best fullback currently playing in Ireland. Anyone with half a brain and two eyes can see that. Ireland will be lucky to have him when he becomes qualified. Hopefully we can produce some irish born players in his league.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Payne is clearly the best outside back in Ulster's squad and the best fullback currently playing in Ireland. Anyone with half a brain and two eyes can see that. Ireland will be lucky to have him when he becomes qualified. Hopefully we can produce some irish born players in his league.

Only because European Player of the year and test Lion R Kearney is having a quiet year. As anyone with the other half of that brain and any eyes knows.

Oh Yeah and Isa is A/ not playing much FB and B/ also quiet.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Payne is clearly the best outside back in Ulster's squad and the best fullback currently playing in Ireland. Anyone with half a brain and two eyes can see that. Ireland will be lucky to have him when he becomes qualified. Hopefully we can produce some irish born players in his league.

Only because European Player of the year and test Lion R Kearney is having a quiet year. As anyone with the other half of that brain and any eyes knows.

Indeed. If Kearney was the Kearney of 2012 vintage then I'd rather have him that Payne, though they are different sorts of players. Kearney at his best is a better fullback that Payne. Payne however is a better footballer. Kearney is well below his best and will be lucky to get on the Lions tour this time around which is a great shame. He is a much better fullback that Halfpenny when on form. But he aint playing up to his usual standards. Like quite a few Irish players he can have a nice wee rest in the summer while the big boys go down under.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Payne is clearly the best outside back in Ulster's squad and the best fullback currently playing in Ireland. Anyone with half a brain and two eyes can see that. Ireland will be lucky to have him when he becomes qualified. Hopefully we can produce some irish born players in his league.

Cant take you seriously when you try to claim Payne is "clearly" better than say the likes of Bowe who has one of the best strike rates in International rugby.

Q. What has Payne ever done?
A. Not a lot really.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Payne is clearly the best outside back in Ulster's squad and the best fullback currently playing in Ireland. Anyone with half a brain and two eyes can see that. Ireland will be lucky to have him when he becomes qualified. Hopefully we can produce some irish born players in his league.

Only because European Player of the year and test Lion R Kearney is having a quiet year. As anyone with the other half of that brain and any eyes knows.

Indeed. If Kearney was the Kearney of 2012 vintage then I'd rather have him that Payne, though they are different sorts of players. Kearney at his best is a better fullback that Payne. Payne however is a better footballer. Kearney is well below his best and will be lucky to get on the Lions tour this time around which is a great shame. He is a much better fullback that Halfpenny when on form. But he aint playing up to his usual standards. Like quite a few Irish players he can have a nice wee rest in the summer while the big boys go down under.

Maybe...just maybe, he's only warming up He looked pretty good at the weekend. Form may be turning just when it needs to. People forget the form you have in the Summer is the important bit as regards the Lions. It doesn't always follow that players, who had their form before or during the 6N, will automatically have it in the summer. Indeed, that's sometimes the transition point when last season's good teams get ready to be the next season's bad teams. But yes, Kearney has been very very disappointing this season so far.

Thought Varndell stood him up for one of his tries.

His head on tackling isn't the George Best at all, never really has been.

GunsGerms wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Payne is clearly the best outside back in Ulster's squad and the best fullback currently playing in Ireland. Anyone with half a brain and two eyes can see that. Ireland will be lucky to have him when he becomes qualified. Hopefully we can produce some irish born players in his league.

Cant take you seriously when you try to claim Payne is "clearly" better than say the likes of Bowe who has one of the best strike rates in International rugby.

Q. What has Payne ever done?
A. Not a lot really.

Thats like saying ROG is better than Madigan because the latter has achieved bollox all at International level.

How many tries do you think the other Irish backs would have got for NZ? - apart from O'Driscoll in his pomp, I can't think of anyone who'd have made an Allblack training squad.

Look Rodders, Payne ain't much. Even Stringer has six more tries than him at International level. He's a waster............... get rid of him. He's just extra cases in your boot.

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Payne is clearly the best outside back in Ulster's squad and the best fullback currently playing in Ireland. Anyone with half a brain and two eyes can see that. Ireland will be lucky to have him when he becomes qualified. Hopefully we can produce some irish born players in his league.

Cant take you seriously when you try to claim Payne is "clearly" better than say the likes of Bowe who has one of the best strike rates in International rugby.

Q. What has Payne ever done?
A. Not a lot really.

Thats like saying ROG is better than Madigan because the latter has achieved bollox all at International level.

How many tries do you think the other Irish backs would have got for NZ? - apart from O'Driscoll in his pomp, I can't think of anyone who'd have made an Allblack training squad.

So what you are saying is based on hypothesis Payne is clearly better than Tommy Bowe. Is that right? There is no evidence to back it up but because of Payne's aura and the fact that he is from New Zealand he must be better.

Bowe and Payne are much closer in age than ROG and Madigan so its not a particularly good analogy you have chosen.

GunsGerms wrote:
So what you are saying is based on hypothesis Payne is clearly better than Tommy Bowe. Is that right?

No I'm saying based on watching both players with my own eyes, in my opinion Payne is better. He's certainly better than Kearney which would be a better comparison given Bowe is a winger.

Is McFadden better than Nacewa because of he's scored more international tries? No he's not fit to lace Nacewa's boots but then that's just like my opinion... there's no evidence to back that up.....

Well Payne is a fullback with zero caps for Ireland. Bowe is a winger with several more caps, so that is a pretty moronic comparison if you are going to criticise other people. So by your own standards Andrew Trimble has scored 11 tries for Ireland, Rob Kearney 7. Therefore Trimble is a far better player. But hold on, Keith Earls has 12 so he must be better than both.

It has nothing to do with where he is from or his aura. It is based on what we see week in, week out. It has been recognised by fans, the press, and pundits about just how good he is. He is more important to Ulster than Bowe. He is a better footballer than Bowe. It is plainly obvious. Right now he would waltz into a green shirt they way he has waltzed through defences. But we have another season to wait and it might be a moot point by then.

Stringer I'm telling yiz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stringer.

rodders wrote:

Is McFadden better than Nacewa because of he's scored more international tries? No he's not fit to lace Nacewa's boots but then that's just like my opinion... there's no evidence to back that up.....

I think you'll find an old copy of Leinster dressing room etiquette floating around somewhere in Grafton street which actually puts it all in print.

"Nacewa's Boot Lacer: F. McFadden" Low centre of gravity says it's his perfect position.

Player for player???

If you asked me to make a team out of those three provinces this is what I would want.

Healy-Strauss-Afoa
Muller - POC
SOB-Williams-Henry
Pienaar-Madigan
Marshall-BOD
Zebo-Payne-Nacewa

6 Leinster
7 Ulster
2 Munster

NOT exactly a scientific measurement though is it!?

I'd say Leinster are in top place as they can win a double and I think it is looking good for them to do so.

I'd say Ulster would be second best based not only on this year but much of last season too.

Munster I think have been pretty poor this season but are doing really well to be the only Irish side left in the HCup and in the semi's for that matter

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Well Payne is a fullback with zero caps for Ireland. Bowe is a winger with several more caps, so that is a pretty moronic comparison if you are going to criticise other people.

it was you that said Payne was the best outside back playing at Ulster. Just pointing out he is not.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote: He is a better footballer than Bowe. It is plainly obvious. Right now he would waltz into a green shirt they way he has waltzed through defences. But we have another season to wait and it might be a moot point by then.

He might be a better footballer than Bowe but Bowe is definitly a better rugby player.

OK Pete what's with the red white and blue pal, are you trying to keep the Ulster fans onside or scare the bejeebus out of any North Korean posters?

Can't read the Ulstermen in white but I'm assuming they are there ....

I'd go with:

15 Payne
14 Bowe
13 BOD
12 Marshall
11 Zebo
10 Sexton
9 Pienaar
8 Williams
7 Henry
6 O'Brien
5 Ryan
4 O'Connell
3 Afoa
2 Best
1 Court

Bench: Healy, Straus, Botha, Muller, Henderson, Marshall, Madigan, Trimble

Bowe is a better winger. Payne is a better fullback and centre, with a better footballing and rugby brain. I know you don't like him because he was born in New Zealand and your past posts about picking players based on residency bare witness to this. But is plainly obvious Payne is a better player than Bowe. Over simplistic thinking based on strike rates alone prove absolutely nothing. if that were true Daisuke Ohata or Hirotoki Onozawa would be two of the greatest players of all time.

The evidence is plainly in front of your face every time they take the field. It needs no elaboration.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Bowe is a better winger. Payne is a better fullback and centre, with a better footballing and rugby brain. I know you don't like him because he was born in New Zealand and your past posts about picking players based on residency bare witness to this. But is plainly obvious Payne is a better player than Bowe. Over simplistic thinking based on strike rates alone prove absolutely nothing. if that were true Daisuke Ohata or Hirotoki Onozawa would be two of the greatest players of all time.

The evidence is plainly in front of your face every time they take the field. It needs no elaboration.

How have you quantified the capacity of Payne's "rugby brain" by comparison to Bowes?

Rugby Brain:

I would argue that Tommy Bowe has a better "rugby brain" because:

He has an uncanny ability to read the game.
His running lines are exceptionally good.
He timing is exceptional. He has a remarkable ability to be in the right place at the right time and to read and understand his teammates.
His decision making is first class. When he has the ball he tends to have the vision and speed of thought to do the right thing at the right time. He has the ability to offload very effectively.

"Footballing ability":

Bowe has an exceptional array of skills. He can kick, catch, pass and tackle as good as any player I can think of. I feel his well rounded array of skills can be at least partially accredited to his GAA roots.

Id say his only weakness is his pace which he more than compensates for with rugby intellegence and other skills.

When he came on for his cameo v Saracens he was Ulster's best back. Payne was fairly blunt in attack by comparison.

I don't know if Payne is better than Bowe.

I rate Payne highly and I rate Bowe highly as well, both are class.

If Payne was anything but a New Zealander he would have loads of caps to his name, international comparisions don't really stand up, otherwise we'd be talking about how great the Lithuania rugby team was when they got thier 18th consecutive victory (a record even the mighty all blacks haven't beaten).

Payne is clearly not fit, you can't just make the comparison of one game.

You don't have to fight Bowe's corner Guns, he is an exceptional player.

Payne just is a fantastic footballer though, if he could stay fit he'd be right up there with Nacewa and Howlett as one of the best overseas signings in Irish rugby. For me he is that good.

Given that he was competing with the likes of Smith and Dagg for an AB spot its no shame he hasn't been capped. The fact that his signing caused a bit of a fall out between the IRFU and NZRFU shows how highly he was rated.

rodders wrote:OK Pete what's with the red white and blue pal, are you trying to keep the Ulster fans onside or scare the bejeebus out of any North Korean posters?

Can't read the Ulstermen in white but I'm assuming they are there ....

I'd go with:

15 Payne
14 Bowe
13 BOD
12 Marshall
11 Zebo
10 Sexton
9 Pienaar
8 Williams
7 Henry
6 O'Brien
5 Ryan
4 O'Connell
3 Afoa
2 Best
1 Court

Bench: Healy, Straus, Botha, Muller, Henderson, Marshall, Madigan, Trimble

Haha well played Rodders

I went for...

Healy-Strauss-Afoa
Muller-POC
SOB-Williams-Henry
Pienaar-Madigan
Marshall-BOD
Zebo-Payne-Isa

7 Ulster (5 NIQ )
6 Leinster
2 Munster

15 Kearney
14 Bowe
13 Drico
12 Marshall
11 Howlett
10 Madigan
9 Piennar
8 Sean O'Brien
7 Henry
6 Ferris
5 Paul O'Connell
4 Muller
3 Afoa
2 Best
1 Healy

rodders wrote:OK Pete what's with the red white and blue pal, are you trying to keep the Ulster fans onside or scare the bejeebus out of any North Korean posters?

Can't read the Ulstermen in white but I'm assuming they are there ....

I'd go with:

15 Payne
14 Bowe
13 BOD
12 Marshall
11 Zebo
10 Sexton
9 Pienaar
8 Williams
7 Henry
6 O'Brien
5 Ryan
4 O'Connell
3 Afoa
2 Best
1 Court

Bench: Healy, Straus, Botha, Muller, Henderson, Marshall, Madigan, Trimble

Jaysus Rodders that's a bit outrageous. You'll be putting Paddy fecken Wallace in there next.

Marshall, Trimble, Henry and especially Williams have no place there. And Payne only because of the quietness of Kearney and Isa this year.

Currently

15 Payne
14 Bowe
13 Drico
12 Marshall
11 Zebo
10 Madigan
9 Piennar
8 Williams
7 Henry
6 Sean O'Brien
5 Paul O'Connell
4 Muller
3 Afoa
2 Best
1 Healy

Connacht could get players on the bench, Henshaw, O'Halloran, E. Griffin, McSharry would all be considered

Could Craig Clarke overtake Muller next year? Muller is very important, but he is getting older and suffering from injuries?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

rodders wrote:OK Pete what's with the red white and blue pal, are you trying to keep the Ulster fans onside or scare the bejeebus out of any North Korean posters?

Can't read the Ulstermen in white but I'm assuming they are there ....

I'd go with:

15 Payne
14 Bowe
13 BOD
12 Marshall
11 Zebo
10 Sexton
9 Pienaar
8 Williams
7 Henry
6 O'Brien
5 Ryan
4 O'Connell
3 Afoa
2 Best
1 Court

Bench: Healy, Straus, Botha, Muller, Henderson, Marshall, Madigan, Trimble

Jaysus Rodders that's a bit outrageous. You'll be putting Paddy fecken Wallace in there next.

Marshall, Trimble, Henry and especially Williams have no place there. And Payne only because of the quietness of Kearney and Isa this year.

Ah come on Jen thats the chinos talking pal!

Jeebus I put Sexton and Madigan in there ahead of Jacko to keep yous lads happy.....