Who is the top Irish Province?

First topic message reminder :

Currently 3 of the 4 can make a decent claim to be the current top Province

Munster
Have done the best in Europe, into H-cup semi-Finals, but 6th in the Leauge and unlikly to make play offs.

Ulster
Went out in Quarter final in H-cup, 2nd in League and should be in the play offs.

Leinster
Went out earlest in H-cup at group stage, but are into semi final of Almin, 3rd in League and should be in the play offs.

Maybe an inter pro table would help?

Ulster 20 v 19 Munster
Connacht 34 v 6 Leinster (BP)
Ulster 25 v 0 Connacht
Leinster 30 v 21 Munster
Ulster 27 v 19 Leinster
Munster 16-12 Connacht
Munster 24-10 Ulster
Leinster 17-0 Connacht
Munster 22-0 Connacht
Leinster 18-22 Ulster

Still to play
Munster V Leinster
Connacht V Ulster

Team p w l BP Points
Ulster 5 4 1 0 16
Munster 5 3 2 1 13
Leinster 5 2 3 1 9
Connacht 5 1 4 2 6


So inter-pro title is between Ulster and Munster.

Honestly I'm not sure who the top team in Ireland are, the good news is the three are among the top in Europe.

I'd prob still say Leinster are the top team but they are not as far and away the best team as last year, it's close, Ulster 2nd and Munster 3rd, but again its close.

What do you think?

OK I take it all back then..........Not.

I've never owned a pair of chinos, a polo shirt or a pair of deck shoes in my life..... I do drink Cappuccinos though.

15. Payne
14. Bowe
13. BOD
12. Marshall
11. Zebo
10. Sexton
9. Pienaar
8. POM
7. Henry
6. SOB
5. POC
4. Muller
3. Afoa
2. Best
1. Healy

16. Strauss
17. Kilcoyne
18. Ross
19. Ryan
20. Henderson
21. Murray
22. Madigan
23.Trimble

Since 2009 Ulster have been on an upward curve.
Leinster peaked in 2011/12 and are now moving into a transition period.

I'd say Ulster and Leinster are about equal currently, maybe Leinster just ahead, but in the near future Ulster will finally regain it's place as the no.1 province.

Munster will always be Munster...

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote: OK I take it all back then..........Not.

I've never owned a pair of chinos, a polo shirt or a pair of deck shoes in my life..... I do drink Cappuccinos though.

Cappucinos?! Flip me the celtic tiger roars on in D4, I thought you's were back on nescafe original from the centra deli like the rest of us .....

rodders wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote: OK I take it all back then..........Not.

I've never owned a pair of chinos, a polo shirt or a pair of deck shoes in my life..... I do drink Cappuccinos though.

Cappucinos?! Flip me the celtic tiger roars on in D4, I thought you's were back on nescafe original from the centra deli like the rest of us .....

Bleeeech
OMG! That's loike an appauuuling picture you paint Rodders. Grim up north eh?

Me and Rodders only pretend to be like you plebs down south so you don't feel inferior. I only drink tea made from the filtered water of little slave children's tears.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Me and Rodders only pretend to be like you plebs down south so you don't feel inferior. I only drink tea made from the filtered water of little slave children's tears.

Surprised you dont make it from the bottled sweat of Payne's back post match.

GunsGerms wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Me and Rodders only pretend to be like you plebs down south so you don't feel inferior. I only drink tea made from the filtered water of little slave children's tears.

Surprised you dont make it from the bottled sweat of Payne's back post match.

Payne never breaks a sweat guns....

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Me and Rodders only pretend to be like you plebs down south so you don't feel inferior. I only drink tea made from the filtered water of little slave children's tears.

Surprised you dont make it from the bottled sweat of Payne's back post match.

Payne never breaks a sweat guns....

Good answer. Think you are back in the game Rodders.

So to subtlety change subject.

IS POC BACK?

Has had great right ups in last two games he's played, is he back, to his best, can he continue to inspire a team that has faultered in the league, to H-cup glory?

Kingshu wrote:So to subtlety change subject.

IS POC BACK?

Has had great right ups in last two games he's played, is he back, to his best, can he continue to inspire a team that has faultered in the league, to H-cup glory?

It looks like it alright. Hope he gets picked for the Lions.

GunsGerms wrote:

Kingshu wrote:So to subtlety change subject.

IS POC BACK?

Has had great right ups in last two games he's played, is he back, to his best, can he continue to inspire a team that has faultered in the league, to H-cup glory?

It looks like it alright. Hope he gets picked for the Lions.

Me too. The man's a god. But can he recover from being "surprisingly quiet" next Saturday?

Sorry, whatever composite side people are putting together with NIQ's eligable, no such side could be without Donnacha Ryan. He has been immense for Munster and Ireland this year and only one truly exceptional performance by POC yesterday would put Paulie ahead of him, THIS season, because Paulie showed his class was permanent. Such an exceptional perfromance on the big stage was great to see but Ryan has put in 15+ excellent games this season.

Ryan is alright but he will never be as good as Poc and not at the same level as Muller (yet)

Ryan is still only a pup in lock years

Mickado wrote:That rule does indeed apply.

Leinster v Stade final please. Contepomi and Nacewa to sign off their European careers in the same game.

Lovely stuff. And dont forget, Stan de Man would be there as well Michael.

Stan ate his dog. Said it was an awful waste of meat to bury it. I loved Stan.

Shhit, if thats the Final and I dont have a ticeaid...

P.S. Leinster are the best team in Europe, feic Ireland. Get a large grip lads. Besides... Yer not as purdy to watch as us.

Best to be honest about these things. I detest false-modesty.

Ulster









Geographically.

Leinster










Alphabetically

Munster









If your unit of currency is the turnip

Connacht









Only joking.

Its clearly Leinster and Ulster who are the best. Munster are a distant third possibly ahead of Connacht. Shure we haven't a hope in the semi and no doubt U and L will be blazing a trail in the other competitions. I am surprised Munster even got a look in , in the original discussion. Jebus I hope we don't ship more than 30 against Clermont

Next you'll be telling us that the "chuck it wide any old how" gameplan has nothing to do with the likely semi final in a warm South of France. The kicking snow off a rope routine won't work here

I would say its still Leinster. They'd have been in the QF's only they were in the same group as Clermont and I'd say could have done a bit of damage with a full squad in the Heino.

And my chinos look far better than any Leinsterman's!

Glas a du wrote:Next you'll be telling us that the "chuck it wide any old how" gameplan has nothing to do with the likely semi final in a warm South of France. The kicking snow off a rope routine won't work here

All I will say is 'stick it up the jumper and leather the ball' Munster v The Fancy Dans of Toulouse semi final circa 2000..

I knew it!

I'd say Leinster ahead of Ulster by a whisker with Munster a fair bit behind. I was as pleased as anyone to see Munster have a good win against Quins but realistically it would take them to be performing well over the course of the season to be rated highly.

I don't think many would have argued Edinburgh were dining amongst Europes elite when they made the semis last year. But they were dire in the league all season, scraped through a Heineken Cup group with some mixed performances and then pulled out a massive game to beat Toulouse. How is that any different?

This is probably not going to make me popular with Munster fans. But seriously- you don't become a good team overnight, nor a bad team. It seems Ulster could still learn a lot from Munster in their pomp about how to turn up for the big European games but over the course of the season the league table doesn't lie.

Notch wrote:I'd say Leinster ahead of Ulster by a whisker with Munster a fair bit behind. I was as pleased as anyone to see Munster have a good win against Quins but realistically it would take them to be performing well over the course of the season to be rated highly.

I don't think many would have argued Edinburgh were dining amongst Europes elite when they made the semis last year. But they were dire in the league all season, scraped through a Heineken Cup group with some mixed performances and then pulled out a massive game to beat Toulouse. How is that any different?

This is probably not going to make me popular with Munster fans. But seriously- you don't become a good team overnight, nor a bad team. It seems Ulster could still learn a lot from Munster in their pomp about how to turn up for the big European games but over the course of the season the league table doesn't lie.

I hear what you say. Performing consistently should rate for something. But claiming Munster, with the people they have behind the scenes, and the people they have still playing and who know how to do HC better than most, should in any way be compared to Edinburgh is, even from last year............ well, it's a touch insulting really.
No, you shouldn't be judged on your past and if Munster slip off the radar big time over the next few years, then they'll be in Edinburgh's realm. But that's not this year.

Munster aren't nearly as dire this year as Edinburgh were last year in Pro12, Munster still have players who know how to win big things, Munster didn't win against Harlequins on passion and hope. That was real Munster lurking behind the stubborn year of trying to perfect/learn Penney's way. The learning and losing will continue I assume in Pro12..but they have serious talent churning under the 'Penney experiment'...

Is this a joke?

The top team in Ireland is the same as the top team in Europe. Leinster. One injury induced poor half a season doesn't change that.

In fact even with the injuries, how many teams other than Clermont could have knocked us out of the HC?

Once we win the double that'll be 6 major trophies in 6 years. I think the Ulster and Munster fans should show a little respect where its due and stop deluding themselves.

And the Amlin is the new Heino anyway.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Is this a joke?

The top team in Ireland is the same as the top team in Europe. Leinster. One injury induced poor half a season doesn't change that.

In fact even with the injuries, how many teams other than Clermont could have knocked us out of the HC?

Once we win the double that'll be 6 major trophies in 6 years. I think the Ulster and Munster fans should show a little respect where its due and stop deluding themselves.

And the Amlin is the new Heino anyway.

I don't know if your being serious, but Ulster doing the double over Leinster this year, being higher in the League, going further in Europe, could be taken as Ulster passing them?
Munster in H-cup semi final, think you get more ranking points for that than for winning the Almin, so that would count as more.

I still count Leinster as the top team, (they would have made it further in Europe from any other group) but it is less clear that they are the best team in Ireland.

Leinster may just about still be the top team but enjoy it while it lasts because next year I see Leinster being the 3rd team with the amount of players leaving and retiring (and possibly the coach)

I believe Munster are 2 years ahead of Leinster in the redevelopment of the team. Munster have brought through a new front row killer and sherry will be top class. D Ryan in second row. Tommy o donnell and Pom showed on Sunday what they are capable of. In the backs Murray zebo jones and JJ are all coming on nicely. Oh and Conway looks class

BlueMuff wrote:Leinster may just about still be the top team but enjoy it while it lasts because next year I see Leinster being the 3rd team with the amount of players leaving and retiring (and possibly the coach)

I believe Munster are 2 years ahead of Leinster in the redevelopment of the team. Munster have brought through a new front row killer and sherry will be top class. D Ryan in second row. Tommy o donnell and Pom showed on Sunday what they are capable of. In the backs Murray zebo jones and JJ are all coming on nicely. Oh and Conway looks class

How can you say Jones is coming along nicely!? He has looked appalling all year.

I kinda agree with what you are saying in terms or redevelopment, the only thing is we have thought ahead, planned for this where as Munster have not.
You talk about Killer and Sherry. We have Healy and Strauss, both better players.
You talk about Ryan. He is 29 so in fairness is peaking just at the right time, one of the best Irish players last year.
TOD and POM. Need I talk about Leinster's backrow resources?
Murray, Zebo, Jones and Conway. Well Luke McGrath could turn in to something, that is still a wait and see scenario. We have the best 10 in Ireland at the moment who is only 24. We have guys like Fitzgerald and Kearney Jr who with some consistent game time could turn in to big big players.

I really do believe that you guys stuck your head in the ground on this one. Everyone could see what was going to happen although we thought it would be a year or two further away (injuries to Wallace, Fla etc). Leinster are smarter coaches/businessmen in all fairness. We have seen what happened to you and have taken measures to stop it happening. Now granted we are going to be seriously light in the back 5 but overall we look ok.

BlueMuff wrote:Leinster may just about still be the top team but enjoy it while it lasts because next year I see Leinster being the 3rd team with the amount of players leaving and retiring (and possibly the coach)

I believe Munster are 2 years ahead of Leinster in the redevelopment of the team. Munster have brought through a new front row killer and sherry will be top class. D Ryan in second row. Tommy o donnell and Pom showed on Sunday what they are capable of. In the backs Murray zebo jones and JJ are all coming on nicely. Oh and Conway looks class

You might be right. Not sure about the re-development point as the Leinster team seems to be continously evolving and they use more rotation than most. However, they are going to lose quite a few players soon enough.

Leinster are clearly the top Irish province and I say that as a Munster fan. They've the best all round game and squad.

I think its fair to say that the top 3 provinces have never been as close as they are now. After a few years Munster look like they're turning a corner and Ulster have gone from strength to strength. Connacht are catching up too, slowly.

Through all the blagging, joking and hyping - that post hit the reality spot.

Ulster are better than ever this season. And I mean consistently. A few hard lessons in the HC will make them a harder team to beat in the Cup next year. The PRO12 title is theirs for the taking this year. If they still believe in themselves after their HC delusion this year. A lot of young talent, some overrated at international level tbh, has come through. Talent good enough to win a HC one day soon. Huge progress if they take it all on board and use it positively.

Munster are rebuilding a lot quicker than even I expected. They left it late, but... they are still better than the best team in England. Even in transition. Doesnt say a lot about the Jeff really. They should not attempt to try and play open rugby. It goes against their very soul. It is what is holding them back in fact. POM, TOD, DR, POC, et al, are true Munster players. They won that game on Sunday. Sexy does not work down there. It never did and it never will. Munster should stay Munster and I do believe Penney has realised this at last. POC showed him the way. Leave the sexy stuff to de Ladyboys and bate shoite out of them again, at regular intervals. Like the aul days.

Leinster had a grand plan way back. It has nowt to do with the coach or the players of the day. It is to do with the Leinster Way. Ulster & Munster are now trying to use it as a template for long-term success. Expect and engender excellence from the kids up. Build a System and a style of playing, in which players can easily slot in to. They are rugbys Ajax of the 70's. And even with the best 10 in the NH leaving, the best centre on the Planet winding down,Shaggy gone, Rocky been and left, I could go onandon, but, with their full squad, they are still the best club side Europe has ever seen.

Connacht have turned a corner. Better players are coming through their academy. And this time, they want to stay. Some provincial swaps, like Carr, wont leave again so easily. Better NIQ players are being signed on the back of it.

All true and it all augurs well when Joe leaves us and takes Ireland to the Promised Land. The ability to actually ¨play rugby and get to the SF's of the next RWC.

A for the man they call Profitus.

We can play good rugby (in the old days,we did have some sexy flashes remember who showed how to beat Toulouse in style first). O'Gara isn't the guy to play it, and it will take a bit of time, but it can be done.

You really believe that T?

Zebo, Jones and JJ will be wasted at Munster. A few nice cameos, but its all against the natural grain of Munsters in-built ethos.Ye just showed the Champions of England that you are Irelands proud verison of Tigers & Sarries. And what is wrong with that?

But, you need still them to fully utilise the power of your pack to the max. They would shine more in another team tbh.

Not wumming mo chara. Its what I think I know.

DOD wrote:Its clearly Leinster and Ulster who are the best. Munster are a distant third possibly ahead of Connacht. Shure we haven't a hope in the semi and no doubt U and L will be blazing a trail in the other competitions. I am surprised Munster even got a look in , in the original discussion. Jebus I hope we don't ship more than 30 against Clermont

Nice break Decco?

You were roysh btw, that Madigan is a stick. He will never amount to anything.

Kingshu wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Is this a joke?

The top team in Ireland is the same as the top team in Europe. Leinster. One injury induced poor half a season doesn't change that.

In fact even with the injuries, how many teams other than Clermont could have knocked us out of the HC?

Once we win the double that'll be 6 major trophies in 6 years. I think the Ulster and Munster fans should show a little respect where its due and stop deluding themselves.

And the Amlin is the new Heino anyway.

I don't know if your being serious, but Ulster doing the double over Leinster this year, being higher in the League, going further in Europe, could be taken as Ulster passing them?
Munster in H-cup semi final, think you get more ranking points for that than for winning the Almin, so that would count as more.

I still count Leinster as the top team, (they would have made it further in Europe from any other group) but it is less clear that they are the best team in Ireland.

Kings, man, I love you dearly an all but... does not the best team, on a higher-plain, make Munster the best team in Ireland right now?

Maybe not.

Fact is, this year, up till now, Munster are. Untll the SF in the South of France.

Then, we take over.

Ulster fans, have a wee bit to go, to fully understand their teams limitations at the highest level.

Harsh but true.

I half agree about Munster Gibbo. They have to keep that Munster doggedness and use their traditional strengths. But into next season I think they can find a balance between the power and ferocity of the weekend and unleashing Zebo, Jones, JJ etc. at the right moment.

The trick is to beat the bejaysus out of the opposition with a bludgeon, while remaining aware enough and ambitious enough to pick the correct moment to slice them apart.

Munster can bludgeon and Penny is there to work on the second part. It was always gonna take more than one season.

Do you think we should award the old Inter Pro trophy for the winner of the mini table between the Provinces?

Currently

Team p w l BP Points
Ulster 5 4 1 0 16
Munster 5 3 2 1 13
Leinster 5 2 3 1 9
Connacht 5 1 4 2 6

Looks like its Ulster or Munsters this year.

To be honest while the Inter-Pro trouphy wouldn't rank very highly it would be something nice to win.

Too much cageyness and Leinster love on this thread. We all respect their fantastic achievments over the past few seasons but a few people are deluding themselves over a scrappy win over a poor Wasps side in a mickey mouse comp.

Leinster are leaking tries all over the shop. The resolve and hunger that held out against Clermont last year is gone. A lot of key players -Cullen, Nacewa, BOD, D'arcy, Jennings, Ross, Reddan are all getting on - Sexton and Nacewa are offski as has Thorn already and Heaslip, Kearney and even O'Brien aren't the players they were. Madigan is the most overhyped player since .... McFadden.

Schmidt knows the craic. Every dog has it's day. Theres a long auld road ahead and he's keeping his options open.

Munster have been through the same rebuilding process and are bit by bit emerging out the other side and laying the ghosts of 2008 to bed but aren't just there yet. Consistancy is an issue and they pretty much throw the white flag out against any team with a powerful pack.

Ulster is where its at now. A quality squad coming in to its prime, learning season on season - hungry to win silveware and getting closer every year. The league table doesn't lie ......

rodders wrote:Too much cageyness and Leinster love on this thread. We all respect their fantastic achievments over the past few seasons but a few people are deluding themselves over a scrappy win over a poor Wasps side in a mickey mouse comp.

Leinster are leaking tries all over the shop. The resolve and hunger that held out against Clermont last year is gone. A lot of key players -Cullen, Nacewa, BOD, D'arcy, Jennings, Ross, Reddan are all getting on - Sexton and Nacewa are offski as has Thorn already and Heaslip, Kearney and even O'Brien aren't the players they were. Madigan is the most overhyped player since .... McFadden.

Schmidt knows the craic. Every dog has it's day. Theres a long auld road ahead and he's keeping his options open.

Munster have been through the same rebuilding process and are bit by bit emerging out the other side and laying the ghosts of 2008 to bed but aren't just there yet. Consistancy is an issue and they pretty much throw the white flag out against any team with a powerful pack.

Ulster is where its at now. A quality squad coming in to its prime, learning season on season - hungry to win silveware and getting closer every year. The league table doesn't lie ......

We had more than a day

You did Mick, you had 4 good years of being the undisputed Irish provincial kings but the wheel has turned imo.

I actually said it last season, that you guys had peaked, but got slated for it.

There were always too many old guys there to stay on top, just like Munster in 2008.

Theres no shame in it, its just the natural order.

We’ll see Rods…

I actually believe that Leinster, even when rebuilding wil have the strenght in dept to stay strong.

We've seen Ulster rise and fall between 1st and 3rd strongest province, Munster the same.

However I believe Leinster will always be 1st or 2nd strongest, they will always be that bit more consistant than Ulster or Munster and won't dip to the same level.

Kingshu wrote:I actually believe that Leinster, even when rebuilding wil have the strenght in dept to stay strong.

We've seen Ulster rise and fall between 1st and 3rd strongest province, Munster the same.

However I believe Leinster will always be 1st or 2nd strongest, they will always be that bit more consistant than Ulster or Munster and won't dip to the same level.

Based on what Kinghsu? A bigger player base? More money?

1st, 2nd strongest is a subjective thing and depends on what yardstick you use. The Heino is not a good way to judge as it us a KO competition and much depends on the draw. The Rabo placing is maybe more a reflection of depth rather than quality of the 1st 22.

Therefore you have to look at performances and the teams subjectively. To me there is no doubt that this season alone Ulster are marginally ahead of the other 2 but there is very little in it.

They key point for me is that Ulster are definintely improving and leinster are definitely going backwards. The jury is out on Munster....their backline is improving but I think their pack and halfbacks are getting worse....in my opinion of course.

Of course its subjective,

However it is a mix of player base and finances.

Leinster to me will be a less dominate Man Utd, they will always be there or thereabouts a consistant force each year. Whereas Ulster and Munster and a bit like Arsenal and Chelsea and can take it in turns to challange them, beat them, better them, but can drop off as well.

Its just how I figure it will go.

Let's see how you feel when we tear the gee outa yah in the Rabo Final.

Theres many Leinster fans just recycling the same tied old lines that Munster fans trotted out four or five years ago about all these young players coming through, they aren't really in decline, and they had a deep squad full of players able to step into the breach. It didn't happen, and Leinster will find themselves in a similar position. I fear Leinster will have just as pronounced a dip as Munster did. It seems sacrilege in Leinster eyes to criticise Leo Cullen, but he's done. His all round game has deteriorate markedly and the fact that he is probably still the best second row Leinster has is a pretty poor reflection on the squad in that position. The front line backrow is top class, but below it the young talented squad players like Ruddock or Ryan are not challenging for positions. Boss and Reddan are perfectly adequate scrum halfs, but at 33 are on a downward slope and that has been shown in their form this season. Sexton is away, Madigan is untested at Heinkein Cup level but at least has demonstrated in the last few games that he may live up to the hype. If BOD does not stay then the centres look very average, and bar Rob Kearney whose form has been mixed and patch due to injury, the back three is very average. I noted in a previous post that I do not rate Dave Kearney to which a couple of Leinster fans rolled their eyes. Compare him to Zebo and Gilroy. No competition there really. Of course Ulster and Munster have their problems in their squads as well, but their trajectory is on the rise while Leinster's is on the wane. No point in burying heads in the sand about it, but I don't see where the young replacements are going to come from. No one has any idea how Luke McGrath is going to turn out. He looked decent in the U-20s, but how many players who have excelled their turn into real quality players. Look again at Andrew Conway, Zebo and Gilroy. Conway was the best at underage level and look at where they are now in their respective provinces.

Also, if Schmidt leaves, and potentially brings his backroom staff with him to the Irish setup where does that leave Leinster? What happens if they bring in a coach with a completely different coaching and playing philosophy ala Penny at Munster?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Let's see how you feel when we tear the gee outa yah in the Rabo Final.

I'll feel happy for yous Jen. We all love an underdog

But lads, this is all just predictions. We’re still in the hunt for 3 cups, lets take a look at things at the end of the season and see who’s on the wane.

Is winning the Amlin and Rabo (which is still a possibility) better than winning the HC? Maybe not, but it’s still not bad. Ulster have played better this season than last season, and Leinster have played worse this season than last, but when it comes down to it, whichever team has the silverware in the cabinet at the end of May will be the team with the better season.

Wanting Leinster to be on the decline won't make it so.