Chinese GP Thread - Contain Spoilers of Practice/Qualifying/Race results

by Fernando Wed 10 Apr 2013, 2:47 pm

Three weeks after the stifling heat and humidity of Malaysia we arrive at the Shanghai International Circuit for the tenth Chinese GP.

If there's one team that's grateful for the TV-unfriendly long break between the Malaysian and Chinese Grands Prix, it must be McLaren. They more than any other team will be hoping it stays dry on Friday in Shanghai as they have a big programme of checks and balances to get through.

Rewind to a year ago and it was Mercedes who scored their first victory in China with Nico Rosberg, and back then it looked like Ross and Norbert's team had finally joined the big three. It was a promise that went unfulfilled for the rest of the season, as they reversed backwards past Lotus and almost into the clutches of Force India and Sauber.

With Lewis Hamilton outqualifying Nico Rosberg for two races in a row this year, Mercedes now have the driver boost that Michael Schumacher couldn't give them. In the past Michael was always the F1 pin-up boy when F1 came to China, the most recognisable face in the sport. Now, there are many more drivers known and loved by the Chinese F1 fans (who touchingly have a great reverence for David Coulthard and Eddie Jordan, as the BBC are the broadcasters picked up by Chinese television. There were some great moments on the BBC forum after last year's race, and it's worth catching online if you can.)

Unlike the fast switchbacks of Sepang, Shanghai has almost no high speed corners and features predominantly low-speed ones with a smattering of medium turns. Some of Hermann Tilke's lower speed corners have an extended radius, with tightening arcs. Lotus Technical Director James Allison is well aware of the challenge this poses. "It's quite a stern test for the tyres, as you have a significant excess of torque over grip making it very easy to wreck a set of rear tyres rather quickly. It's generally quite cool in Shanghai as well - unseasonably so last year - meaning that graining will be an issue once again; particularly given the smoothness of the asphalt which is comparable to that of Melbourne."

Sounds like a Lotus kind of race, then. Last year the team tried to go through the race with one stop fewer than the pack and Kimi Raikkonen fell spectacularly off the cliff as his front tyres gave up and he dropped around eight places on a single lap. Romain Grosjean is kinder to his fronts than Kimi, so that should be a battle to watch.

Brakes are also a premium at the Shanghai circuit with the interminable back straight and the big stop into a hairpin that will also create tyre wear through inevitable flatspots. Though it's unlikely that we'll see a Toro Rosso detach its wheels under braking as elegantly as Sebastian Buemi managed (a la James Bond).

Pirelli will be bringing Medium and Soft tyres to the race and motorsport director Paul Hembery, has been keen to emphasise in his pre-race quotes that the top teams will learn how to manage the increased degradation of 2013.

"China has often produced some of the best races of the year, where strategy has been at the forefront of the action. Shanghai is less aggressive on the tyres than the last round in Malaysia but we would expect to see the majority of competitors go for three stops although some may try two."

In the past there have been showers and mixed conditions in Shanghai, but this weekend the forecast is for relatively cool conditions but dry on all three days.

With the emphasis on tyre wear there will be a familiar chorus of disapproval from some quarters, most likely Red Bull, but not Force India. Providing they can get the wheelnuts off their cars during pit-stops the Silverstone-based team should be looking at another strong race, well aware they gave up a big haul of points in Malaysia.

Felipe Massa has a great personal target to aim for. Not only is he leading Fernando Alonso in the Drivers' table, he has outqualified his team-mate four races in a row. Nobody has done that to Fernando five times in a row. Having lost out through a self-inflicted wound at Sepang, Alonso will be very keen not to drop further behind Massa and the rest of the grid in China, so it may be that we see a conservative approach from him

Two things we haven't seen so far in 2013 are the Safety Car and Bernie Ecclestone - with a lot of behind-the-scenes machinations about the commercial agreements governing F1, it's a surprise that Bernie hasn't been more visible. There are a lot of loose ends to be tied up in connection with 2013, let alone 2014 and beyond. And with two rainy weekends, it's surprising we haven't had a Safety Car either.

What we should also look out for is the length of time that a Soft compound tyre can last on fullish tanks. Because if the race does prove to be like a re-run of Melbourne there may be a few cars playing it tactically in Qualifying. We might get cars making a token run in Q3 on the harder Medium tyre - not putting much of a heat cycle through it to establish a position around rows 4 or 5, slightly above somebody who doesn't bother to come out at all in Q3.

And finally, although there have been a few news stories run - one of the better aspects of this year's Chinese GP is that it won't be overshadowed by what is happening on the following weekend, in Bahrain.

Weather Forecast: http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/1796236 ( No Rain as of 14:45 GMT)
Source:MSN.co.uk

by Fernando Wed 10 Apr 2013, 2:49 pm

Red Bull have scrapped team orders after their Sepang debacle when Vettel overtook Webber on low fuel

by Guest Wed 10 Apr 2013, 3:14 pm

Always look forward to this race ahead of most. Just somehow never fails to produce a great watch from beginning to end. Interesting to see who has 'stood still' and who has gained time over the three week break. Hoping for a good strong race from Mercedes and will be intrigued to see if McLaren have indeed become more competitive. Bring on FP1.

by liverbnz Wed 10 Apr 2013, 3:17 pm

3 weeks is too long (and I see there's another before the summer break). I'm hoping for a dry weekend so that we can see where we are at. Not one of RBs favourite tracks so this is a tough one to call. Hamilton has had a few winners here too, but I'm going to stick my neck out a little and predict a Ferrari win - with a Brazilian in the driver's seat.

by dyrewolfe Wed 10 Apr 2013, 3:45 pm

Fernando wrote:Red Bull have scrapped team orders after their Sepang debacle when Vettel overtook Webber on low fuel

So they say. I'm pretty sure they will reinstate them if a situation arises where Vettel stands to benefit. Wink

Still, after being starved of action for 2 weeks, I'm really looking forward to this. Really hoping McLaren and Mercedes have managed to make some progress.

by Fernando Wed 10 Apr 2013, 3:56 pm

For those with Twitter https://twitter.com/606v2motorsport

Shall be busy over the weekends mainly after races though

by GSC Wed 10 Apr 2013, 3:59 pm

If theres a track for Mercedes to stand up and make others take notice, its here.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Thu 11 Apr 2013, 10:59 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be3-J9XtJCw&feature=youtu.be

I will be supporting Webber for the rest of the season, purely based on this

by Fernando Thu 11 Apr 2013, 11:28 am

Sebastian Vettel says he would probably disregard team orders and pass Mark Webber again if the Malaysian Grand Prix situation was repeated, as he does not believe the Australian deserved victory.

Despite apologising to the Red Bull team for his decision to contravene its 'multi 21' hold position request and overtake Webber in a fierce late-race battle, Vettel told reporters including AUTOSPORT in China on Thursday that Webber had not assisted him in the past and was not entitled to the Sepang win.

Vettel argued that he had misunderstood the team's message, yet admitted that even if he had comprehended, his actions would likely not have changed

by Guest Thu 11 Apr 2013, 11:52 am

Listened to the press conference and not surprised at all with what was said. Ruthless Vettel has no regrets and he would repeat his actions in a heartbeat. The embarrassing apology and hand shake was farsical, which was obvious and he also stated he wasn't even disciplined which was hardly surprising, therefore this just emphasises that Vettel is running the show at that team & Horner is his lapdog. The animosity between the two is stronger than ever and its basically no holds barred which should be fascinating to watch.

by dyrewolfe Thu 11 Apr 2013, 11:58 am

Which means any apologies he offered were simply "crocodile tears".

I'd have respected him more if he'd just done what Webber did and owned up straight away, instead of trying to feed us a load of BS about "misunderstanding".

Think we're seeing Seb's true nature here...and its not a pretty sight. Can't believe he then has the nerve to complain about lack of support from Webber, if this is what Mark has had to put up with.

by Guest Fri 12 Apr 2013, 2:05 pm

Mercedes looked quick on the medium but their soft tyre was horrible, arguably worse than their rivals. I can see a haul of stops before lap 5 on sunday. Ferrari and Massa in particularly looked good on their tyre whereas Red Bull were typically sandbagging and will show their pace in Q3 no doubt. McLaren's upgrades just aren't significant enough and Perez was all over the shop today.

Should be an interesting qualifying, especially in Q3 but I would expect just one run each maybe. Can see a repeat of Australia where Sutil chose the medium tyre and then went long and held up the front-runners. Could be chaos on sunday and quite brilliant to watch.

by sportform Fri 12 Apr 2013, 3:08 pm

Fernando wrote:Red Bull have scrapped team orders after their Sepang debacle when Vettel overtook Webber on low fuel

Good news. Team orders are such a bore.

Sebastian Vettel shown in Malaysia why he is a three times World Drivers Champion and why Mark Webber has never won it. Like it or not, you have to take opportunities when they come.

On this weeks race, I am expecting a big show from both the Mercedes. Nico Rosberg won from pole last year and I expect them to go well again.

Also does anyone know what is going on with the F1 competition on here?

by Fernando Fri 12 Apr 2013, 4:32 pm

Id like to see you that that theory of ignoring your bosses orders into your work place Sportsville and see how long before your boss fires you Whistle

Also what competition? haven't heard anything from owen for a whilst i believe

by Fernando Fri 12 Apr 2013, 5:01 pm

"It was the worst tyre I've ever experienced," said Mercedes' Lewis Hamilton, who described the situation as 'hardcore'.

"There were bits flying off all over the place. It didn't last long," he added.

He is referring to the softer of the two compounds, while quick straight out of the box is being likened to the old 'qualifying' compounds of the past.

Lewis Hamilton, Mercedes AMG F1

Photo by: XPB Images
"It doesn't feel like the right tyre for this circuit," Hamilton continued. "I did a couple of laps and it disintegrated."

McLaren's Jenson Button agrees: "It's very tricky and I don't think you're going to see many quick laps in the race.

"It's extreme degradation and from a tyre that's doing a (one minute) 35 in qualifying spec and then in the race after eight laps doing 48 ... we're slower than GP2 cars."

Mark Webber, of Red Bull, said the soft tyre is "virtually impossible" to balance in terms of setting up the car.

"You slither around like you're in Formula Ford," he is quoted by Germany's Auto Motor und Sport.

Not everyone was unhappy. Lotus and Ferrari appear content with the soft tyre, and especially Brazilian Felipe Massa, whose engineer told him on the radio his pace is "not good but incredible".

"Felipe Massa certainly looked quick today," agreed Red Bull team boss Christian Horner

by Guest Fri 12 Apr 2013, 6:03 pm

Why do Pirelli change to soft tyres when the original choices were so successful? They've had some of the most entertaining races in China over recent years, therefore they decide to change and be even more aggressive in their approach. As I said, fully expect the top 10 qualifiers to be diving into the pits causing utter chaos before lap 5 on Sunday and putting the medium tyre on for the duration of the race strategy. This should allow the driver in position eleven and backwards to go long and possibly lead the race for a stint and provide difficulty for the top guys, reminiscent of what happened with Sutil in Australia. I guess it will provide uncertainty and excitement for the viewers but this amount of tyre conservation playing the dominant role in a race is just ridiculous. The first hour of every practice session is just quite frankly embarrasing and forcing people to pay to watch 'nothing' is revolting.

Watching drivers of this ability having to conserve and struggle with these tyres really is difficult for me to comprehend but I guess everyone is in the same boat.

by SteveG Fri 12 Apr 2013, 11:30 pm

Tyres tyres tyres. This is all really starting to get on my bloody wick. Q3 shootout could be on primes at this rate. A joke. steam

by GSC Fri 12 Apr 2013, 11:34 pm

Bring back refuelling.

by SteveG Sat 13 Apr 2013, 12:35 am

GSC wrote:Bring back refuelling.

+1

by mystiroakey Sat 13 Apr 2013, 8:03 am

LH - get in lad.

Great Pole!!

loving it. all about mercedes and lotus!

by dyrewolfe Sat 13 Apr 2013, 8:12 am

Oy!

Q1 and Q3 absolutely farcical. No action for 8-9 minutes in Q1 and nothing until there were about 3-4 minutes of Q1 left.

Very happy for Lewis - his first pole for his new team. Mercedes looking strong so far. Decent run by Rosberg - think a mistake on the final corner cost him a front row place.

Ferrari and Lotus also looking good, rounding out the top 6. Kimi vs Lewis off the front row...should be interesting.

Intrigued by Red Bull's strategy of putting Vettel on mediums. Do they believe their long-run pace is better than everyone elses? Also see McLaren followed suit with Button (which makes more sense as he was unlikely to be challenging for pole).

This does make me worry and it seems strange that most of the top 10 decided to start the race on soft tyres, which will degrade quickly under heavy fuel loads. Think Vettel and Button could benefit greatly after the 1st round of pit stops.

Gutted for Webber - seems he had a similar fuel problem to Vettel in Abu Dhabi last year, putting him out in Q2. Hope he can make his way through the field and at least score some points.

***RESULTS***

1. L Hamilton (Mercedes)
2. K Raikkonen (Lotus)
3. F Alonso (Ferrari)
4. N Rosberg (Mercedes)
5. F Massa (Ferrari)
6. R Grosjean (Lotus)
7. D Ricciardo (Toro Rosso)
8. J Button (McLaren)
9. S Vettel (Red Bull)
10. N Hulkenberg (Sauber)

11. P Di Resta (Force India)
12. S Perez (McLaren)
13. A Sutil (Force India)
14. M Webber (Red Bull)
15. P Maldonado (Williams)

by CaledonianCraig Sat 13 Apr 2013, 9:27 am

The way the season has started makes me believe I was totally wrong about Lewis Hamilton's move. I was stunned when he announced he was moving from the well-established and more consistent McLaren team to a Mercedes team somewhat in disarray and lacking raw speed. However, that is now looking like a very shrewd move just now as McLaren struggle whilst Mercedes have propelled themselves up to the front of the grid. I am not saying Hamilton will win the title or anything just that he looks to be in a better position to challenge for one as things stand.

As for the grid make-up - very interesting. Those occupying the front three rows are not so well-off as it first appears as they will start on the soft compound tyres which have a very short lifespan. Behind them all of the cars will be on the more durable medium tyres so expect changes at the front of the race after 5 to 10 laps as the soft tyres will need changing.

by mystiroakey Sat 13 Apr 2013, 9:28 am

As i said before . If you move to a team that has Brawn - How can it be wrong!!!!

by CaledonianCraig Sat 13 Apr 2013, 9:35 am

mystiroakey wrote:As i said before . If you move to a team that has Brawn - How can it be wrong!!!!

The thing is if Mercedes have their way (or so it seems) he won't be there much longer as they seem to be moving to try to force him out though I could be wrong. In any case Brawn was at Mercedes last year and what a disaster that was. However, you want to look at it going even on last year's form alone - McLaren to Mercedes looked like a step down. At the moment it appears I was wrong about that.

by mystiroakey Sat 13 Apr 2013, 9:36 am

F1 is all about RB...

And i am not talking about Red bull thumbsup

by mystiroakey Sat 13 Apr 2013, 9:38 am

By the way only a fool would get rid of Ross Brawn. You got any links to clarify your point?

by Guest Sat 13 Apr 2013, 10:29 am

Farsical show as expected with these tyres. Nothing surprising there.

It does not look that great for Hamilton, even though he's qualified on pole. In this situation it was not the be-all-and-end-all. If Vettel can get a clean getaway and move past Ricciardo, he will just wait and see the drivers ahead rushing into the pits in the first 5-10 laps and then gain control of the race and lead - like Sutil did in Australia. The other problem for Hamilton & Co is after their respective pit stops they will almost certainly, after 5 laps, be in heavy traffic, while Vettel and possibly Button will be on the mediums and in clean air building a gap. It's all interesting strategy and will be intriguing how it pans out. Button's radio comment of, 'excellent' - when hearing everyone in front of him was on soft's spells out their plan for tomorrow. Huge disappointment for Webber, just typical and emphasises the issues he constantly faces at Red Bull in comparison to Vettel.

Prediction - Hoping Hamilton can win for Mercedes but fear Vettel and their strategy.

by dyrewolfe Sat 13 Apr 2013, 10:34 am

mystiroakey wrote:By the way only a fool would get rid of Ross Brawn. You got any links to clarify your point?

I take it you missed the thread/chat on here when it was rumoured Wolff and Lauda were trying to get rid of Brawn?

Ross Brawn Expected to leave Mercedes after Paddy Lowe joins

Hope they've reconsidered...

by CaledonianCraig Sat 13 Apr 2013, 11:43 am

mystiroakey wrote:By the way only a fool would get rid of Ross Brawn. You got any links to clarify your point?

It has been common knowledge that Mercedes have been bringing in high profile names to the team (the latest being Paddy Lowe) so much so that Ross Brawn spent most of pre-season trying to clarify his position in the team. Such as:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jan/24/ross-brawn-mercedes-future

and

http://www.foxsports.com.au/motor-sports/formula-one/ross-brawn-tipped-to-be-on-the-outer-at-mercedes-gp-with-mclarens-appointment-of-new-tech-chief/story-e6frf3zl-1226585601859#.UWk2YbWkqvs

and

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-2266658/Lewis-Hamilton-facing-career-Mercedes-Ross-Brawn.html

and plenty more.

You can talk up Ross Brawn but remember he was there last year amidst an almighty disasterous year for Mercedes so everything he touches doesn't turn to gold. I do wish him well though.

by SteveG Sat 13 Apr 2013, 1:50 pm

Fantastic from Hamilton - tho like others on here I'm a bit concerned about him getting stuck in traffic after about 5 laps. If pole position continues to be undermined in this way then F1 is well and truly going down the wrong road. Actually expected everyone to be on primes in Q3 - especially after running the softs in Q1 and Q2.

As for the Brawn debate - have always felt he's had one hand tied behind his back due to lack of finance and bodies. Merc have always been quick out of the box but have always lost the development war. They have since decided to throw the kitchen sink at it with massive restructuring so now expect the Brawn magic to make more of an impact. Onwards and upwards hopefully.

by mystiroakey Sat 13 Apr 2013, 3:37 pm

yeah i must have missed all that talk about brawn..

But one season means nothing. Mercs problems would have been not allowing him the full reigns or not being patient enough with him. What he touches allways turns to gold..

by sportform Sat 13 Apr 2013, 4:13 pm

Fernando wrote:Id like to see you that that theory of ignoring your bosses orders into your work place Sportsville and see how long before your boss fires you.

If disobeying my bosses orders at work enhanced my chances of being the best in the world at my job I would. Other companies would be lining up to employ the worlds best.

by mystiroakey Sat 13 Apr 2013, 4:16 pm

I suppose in this vettel case its like a trader ignoring his boss with his limits or trades.. If it pays off the boss doesnt care

by AlciG Sat 13 Apr 2013, 7:57 pm

They need to fix this tyres business though... It can't be good for the sport when its maybe better not to post a qualification time instead of going for pole.

by sportform Sun 14 Apr 2013, 8:24 am

DRS is making far too easy to pass.

by mystiroakey Sun 14 Apr 2013, 8:36 am

Its all kicking off at the moment!

great race- come on LH..

by beninho Sun 14 Apr 2013, 8:54 am

the Ferrari is pretty good. shame he mucked up in malaysia.

by mystiroakey Sun 14 Apr 2013, 9:03 am

yep alonso is doing brilliantly. BUT LH is flying!

by beninho Sun 14 Apr 2013, 9:13 am

good drive by hulkenberg. Alonso seems to have the win wrapped up. hope Lewis and Kimi stay ahead of vetell.

by mystiroakey Sun 14 Apr 2013, 9:38 am

Best 5 drivers in the top 5 places...

good race- all no.1 drivers as well, all seperate teams.!!

ferrari alosno
Lotus Raikonon
merc LH
RB vettel
Maclaren Button

by mystiroakey Sun 14 Apr 2013, 9:41 am

Good win by Alonso- well done Sir!

by dyrewolfe Sun 14 Apr 2013, 9:50 am

Wow - an enthralling GP from start to finish. Plenty of overtaking and a mix of strategies to keep you guessing as to the final running order.

Driving masterclass by Alonso - fully deserved the win.

Great drives from Raikkonen and Hamilton too...tense finish for the final podium spot. Red Bull's strategy for Vettel so nearly paid off.

Decent finish for Button, making McLaren's 2-stop strategy work reasonably well.

Good points for Di Resta and Ricciardo.

Bit disappointed for Hulkenberg - he looked really quick at one point and I thought he'd finish higher.

Best race of the season so far. Hope we see a few more like this.

by Guest Sun 14 Apr 2013, 10:28 am

Best race because pirelli got the tyre decision wrong and it mixed the strategy up. You either like it that way or you don't but don't expect it every weekend. I prefer more durable tyres and the chance to showcase natural speed and ability but I won't complain. Heart in mouth at the end with Hamilton but great drive, clearly no.1 now in race n qualifying at merc, although rosberg has been unlucky with two dnf. Not surprised by vettels qualifying pace at the end, hardly surprising given his rivals tyre condition.

Great season up to now. Wonder what Alonso will be doin` at his private celebrations tonight Laugh

by CaledonianCraig Sun 14 Apr 2013, 11:25 am

We can take a few things out of that race. Fortune favoured the brave ie those willing to set a qualifying time in Q3 got their rewards in the end. Also the Ferrari is now very quick (perhaps a match for Red Bull) and although Mercedes has made great strides they are disadvantaged in that tyre preservation is key and I'd guess that is an area that Hamilton is much weaker than all of the other leading drivers. Mercedes will need to find a way around that otherwise it is a three way title fight between Vettel, Alonso and Raikkonen.

by Bull Sun 14 Apr 2013, 11:47 am

Great win for Ferrari good race too

COME ON FERRARI

by SteveG Sun 14 Apr 2013, 2:23 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:tyre preservation is key and I'd guess that is an area that Hamilton is much weaker than all of the other leading drivers

IMO it's more car than driver - Hamilton can look after his tyres as good as anyone and proved as much last season many times against the so called tyre master Button. Merc have come on leaps and bounds and can mix it over one lap but are still a bit short on race pace due to tyrewear which is to be expected considering where they were last season.

As for the race - glad the guys on the podium were those who were prepared to set a qualifying time. It was good to see opposite strategies - and agree that it kept you guessing right to the end but still think that an empty race track on a Saturday is too high a price to pay - and we won't always get the grandstand finish like today. Grid position should always be golddust.

Good drives from all in the top five, Ricciardo and Hulk.

by mystiroakey Sun 14 Apr 2013, 2:33 pm

"tyre preservation is key and I'd guess that is an area that Hamilton is much weaker than all of the other leading drivers"

i think your clutching at straws there mate. but he is probally the quickest driver out ther.. so he may have the ability to mash his tyres up more in the sense that he can push them harder

by CaledonianCraig Sun 14 Apr 2013, 5:11 pm

No I will stand by that remark. And when, exactly, did he make his tyres last longer than Jenson Button last year? It is renowned he has a reputation for shredding tyres with his aggressive driving. If you think about it why do you always seem to hear him (more than anyone else) being warned over the radio to look after his tyres? I would take the point that it may be more down to the Mercedes but he was the same at McLaren. Today at the end of the race his tyres were shot at the end and Vettel was reeling him in whilst Raikkonen was pulling away.

by GSC Sun 14 Apr 2013, 5:13 pm

Certainly not an unfair statement that preserving his tyres isn't Hamiltons forte.

by mystiroakey Sun 14 Apr 2013, 5:24 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:No I will stand by that remark. And when, exactly, did he make his tyres last longer than Jenson Button last year? It is renowned he has a reputation for shredding tyres with his aggressive driving. If you think about it why do you always seem to hear him (more than anyone else) being warned over the radio to look after his tyres? I would take the point that it may be more down to the Mercedes but he was the same at McLaren. Today at the end of the race his tyres were shot at the end and Vettel was reeling him in whilst Raikkonen was pulling away.

caledoian not being funny mate but do you know what happened in the race and qualy?

Did you watch any off it?

you do realise that vettel saved the softs till last dont you?- no one could deal with that.

You do realise that Kimi and LH's tyres were both in bad shape- however the driv er doing the pushing will have to try and go harder to overtake- thereby affecting the tyres more.

You do realise that the reason LH's tyres were almost shot was actually only due to one error, and that error was only brought about him being behind Kimi -he had to push! (he locked up- which can causes a spot on the tyre!!)

you also do realise that LH got pole and utilsed his tyres to full affect in qualy rather than in the race situation.. So was allways going to be down on others at race end!!

If you honestly think that merc are at a disadvantage over other teams because they have hamilton i can only laugh mate!- sorry they should be immensly happy to have him- and they are!

he may tyre wear- but as i said that is because of his driving style- which on the whole is faster than others.. he gives as much of a plus as he gives negative in that regard

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