Chinese GP Thread - Contain Spoilers of Practice/Qualifying/Race results

[Fernando]

First topic message reminder :



Three weeks after the stifling heat and humidity of Malaysia we arrive at the Shanghai International Circuit for the tenth Chinese GP.

If there's one team that's grateful for the TV-unfriendly long break between the Malaysian and Chinese Grands Prix, it must be McLaren. They more than any other team will be hoping it stays dry on Friday in Shanghai as they have a big programme of checks and balances to get through.

Rewind to a year ago and it was Mercedes who scored their first victory in China with Nico Rosberg, and back then it looked like Ross and Norbert's team had finally joined the big three. It was a promise that went unfulfilled for the rest of the season, as they reversed backwards past Lotus and almost into the clutches of Force India and Sauber.

With Lewis Hamilton outqualifying Nico Rosberg for two races in a row this year, Mercedes now have the driver boost that Michael Schumacher couldn't give them. In the past Michael was always the F1 pin-up boy when F1 came to China, the most recognisable face in the sport. Now, there are many more drivers known and loved by the Chinese F1 fans (who touchingly have a great reverence for David Coulthard and Eddie Jordan, as the BBC are the broadcasters picked up by Chinese television. There were some great moments on the BBC forum after last year's race, and it's worth catching online if you can.)

Unlike the fast switchbacks of Sepang, Shanghai has almost no high speed corners and features predominantly low-speed ones with a smattering of medium turns. Some of Hermann Tilke's lower speed corners have an extended radius, with tightening arcs. Lotus Technical Director James Allison is well aware of the challenge this poses. "It's quite a stern test for the tyres, as you have a significant excess of torque over grip making it very easy to wreck a set of rear tyres rather quickly. It's generally quite cool in Shanghai as well - unseasonably so last year - meaning that graining will be an issue once again; particularly given the smoothness of the asphalt which is comparable to that of Melbourne."

Sounds like a Lotus kind of race, then. Last year the team tried to go through the race with one stop fewer than the pack and Kimi Raikkonen fell spectacularly off the cliff as his front tyres gave up and he dropped around eight places on a single lap. Romain Grosjean is kinder to his fronts than Kimi, so that should be a battle to watch.

Brakes are also a premium at the Shanghai circuit with the interminable back straight and the big stop into a hairpin that will also create tyre wear through inevitable flatspots. Though it's unlikely that we'll see a Toro Rosso detach its wheels under braking as elegantly as Sebastian Buemi managed (a la James Bond).

Pirelli will be bringing Medium and Soft tyres to the race and motorsport director Paul Hembery, has been keen to emphasise in his pre-race quotes that the top teams will learn how to manage the increased degradation of 2013.

"China has often produced some of the best races of the year, where strategy has been at the forefront of the action. Shanghai is less aggressive on the tyres than the last round in Malaysia but we would expect to see the majority of competitors go for three stops although some may try two."

In the past there have been showers and mixed conditions in Shanghai, but this weekend the forecast is for relatively cool conditions but dry on all three days.

With the emphasis on tyre wear there will be a familiar chorus of disapproval from some quarters, most likely Red Bull, but not Force India. Providing they can get the wheelnuts off their cars during pit-stops the Silverstone-based team should be looking at another strong race, well aware they gave up a big haul of points in Malaysia.

Felipe Massa has a great personal target to aim for. Not only is he leading Fernando Alonso in the Drivers' table, he has outqualified his team-mate four races in a row. Nobody has done that to Fernando five times in a row. Having lost out through a self-inflicted wound at Sepang, Alonso will be very keen not to drop further behind Massa and the rest of the grid in China, so it may be that we see a conservative approach from him

Two things we haven't seen so far in 2013 are the Safety Car and Bernie Ecclestone - with a lot of behind-the-scenes machinations about the commercial agreements governing F1, it's a surprise that Bernie hasn't been more visible. There are a lot of loose ends to be tied up in connection with 2013, let alone 2014 and beyond. And with two rainy weekends, it's surprising we haven't had a Safety Car either.

What we should also look out for is the length of time that a Soft compound tyre can last on fullish tanks. Because if the race does prove to be like a re-run of Melbourne there may be a few cars playing it tactically in Qualifying. We might get cars making a token run in Q3 on the harder Medium tyre - not putting much of a heat cycle through it to establish a position around rows 4 or 5, slightly above somebody who doesn't bother to come out at all in Q3.

And finally, although there have been a few news stories run - one of the better aspects of this year's Chinese GP is that it won't be overshadowed by what is happening on the following weekend, in Bahrain.

Weather Forecast: http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/1796236 ( No Rain as of 14:45 GMT)
Source:MSN.co.uk

[mystiroakey]

when some people talk of tyre wear i imagine they have just seen days of thunder and buy into that lap that tom crusie did after being given those words of wisdom

[CaledonianCraig]

Why so ultra-defensive mystiroakey? I have watched all aspects of F1 for many many years thanks. Enough to know that tyre preservation is not Hamilton's strong point - far from it. You see that as some sort of a massive insult and see it as ne attacking Hamilton. Where did I say Mercedes aren't delighted to have him?

My point is that in this day and age tyre preservation is a crucial aspect of F1. Those that are masters of this will benefit and I just don't put Lewis in that bracket and feel that will hurt his title push if he can manage one. The Mercedes has improved a lot since last year but it is still not on the race pace of Red Bull, Ferrari and maybe Lotus. With tyre wear playing a big part it really does diminish Hamilton's chances further. And for the record I hope I am proven wrong.

[GSC]

Aye, tad ott there myst

[mystiroakey]

"but it is still not on the race pace of Red Bull, Ferrari and maybe Lotus. With tyre wear playing a big part it really does diminish Hamilton's chances further"

you have done it again. No having someone like hamilton in this car will give merc 10 times more chance!!

lewis hasnt had the quickest car for a few years- he also had a rotten pit crew last year.. When your behind you push or you fold. When you push you wear your tyres!

you cant push without wearing your tyres out

[bsando]

I was very impressed with Ricciardo's drive in China. I was beginning to get worried that perhaps he didn't have the talent and would lose his place in F1 late last season. But he totally out matched his team mate today.

BBC were firmly focussed on big teams unless there was an overtake, which they then showed a replay. But I was watching his times all race. He was much quicker than his team mate and after his final pitstop he overtook, Vergne (again I think), Grosjean and Hulkenberg to finish 7th. Bloomin good effort considering he had to change a front wing as well early on. He was very close to Massa by the end as well.

I just really hope he backs this race up in Bahrain with another good result, because his drive in China showed a lot of maturity for a 23 year old driver. I think he is a very good all round package.

Hulkenberg looked very impressive at one point, but totally drifted off at the end. Wether it was strategy or tyre management, who know's. But its the end result that counts at the end of the day and Ricciardo and Diresta both did much better.

Perez... looked very weak so far after 3 races. Did Mclaren make a huge boo boo?

[CaledonianCraig]

you have done it again. No having someone like hamilton in this car will give merc 10 times more chance!!

lewis hasnt had the quickest car for a few years- he also had a rotten pit crew last year.. When your behind you push or you fold. When you push you wear your tyres!

you cant push without wearing your tyres out

And there you go again seeing something that isn't there. I am not saying Mercedes haven't pulled off a coup getting Hamilton but my fears are he will only humanly be able to bring them similar finishes like today unless Mercedes can improve their car further. Tyre deg is everything this season and Lewis (no matter how fast he can drive that car) will suffer from tyre deg more than others. You are correct that when you push you wear out your tyres and with a driver like Lewis that is just going to magnify his degradation rate. It is an honest observation that is all.

[SteveG]

@Craig - can't go into specific races but there were definately times last season - particularly early on when Button - who was having alot of trouble with his set up often complained about his tyres going off whereas Hamilton managed them ok. So I also stand by my opinion that Hamilton CAN look after his tyres. However if you're pushing your car harder to stay with a quicker car - as Hamilton was today then of course you're gonna suffer greater tyre wear - and the reason why Kimi stayed ahead of Hami despite being on tyres that were 3 laps older.

[mystiroakey]

its a completely misleading observation is what it is..

if someone else was driving the car he may not tyre degrade them as much as lewis- but i would bet money on them not picking up as many points as lewis!!

That is the point!! and the only one..

Or are you trying to suggest a button or vettel would?

what is your point in realation to lewis exactly?

no one has more chance(bar alonso) of winning a championship in a second best car let alone a 4th or 5th best one..

I think people are completely missing the point when they discuss tyre wear!- they dont seem to get the balance and pointg- its about management of the tyres- and that includes attacking with the possibility of wearing the tyres out more if he driver can drive fast enough for it to be worth while!

RB deceided on the stratergy of not bothering with Qualy and reversing the soft tyes. but all the same it only got them 4th!! LH got 3rd!

yet your trying to make out as though lewis messed up today with his tyre wear and was lucky to beat Vettel

All i can say is if didnt push to try and pass Kimi- Vettel may well have got 2nd let alone 3rd!!!!

[CaledonianCraig]

Tyre management is key this year as it was to some degree last year - we are all in agreement on that are we not? I am of the opinion that Hamilton's driving style is tough on tyres and as Mercedes do not have the pace of the front runners he has to wring the neck of the car and tyres degrade quicker. Like I said earlier unless Mercedes can rectify that situation we have at the moment then the title race will be between Alonso, Vettel and Raikkonen. Sure Mercedes may pick up an odd win here or there if things fall their way and tyre deg is not such an issue but not enough to push either Hamilton or Rosberg into title contenders. That is my point. Care to disagree?

[mystiroakey]

you have put all the blame on hamiltons driving style.. the truth is hamiltons driving style is the only thing they have got as a plus with a less than perfect car. Thats the point..

[GSC]

Hamilton is god Craig

[mystiroakey]

nope he certainly isnt but he is a plus to the team not a negative..

[CaledonianCraig]

the truth is hamiltons driving style is the only thing they have got as a plus with a less than perfect car. Thats the point..

That may well be the case but that pace he brings comes at a price and that is tyre deg. It will insure the Merc team have a better year than last year but will leave them on the fringes of title races.

[mystiroakey]

No it doesnt come at a price- because(and you even agree) he will insure them more points and a better year.

What is this price?

[CaledonianCraig]

The price of increased tyre degradation and hence struggles to compete for race wins and the drivers title. The only way this will change is more strides made by Mercedes to increase pace and lessen tyre deg.

[mystiroakey]

so what your saying is others that degrade tyres less would pick up more points?

which drivers would do that?

[CaledonianCraig]

In the Mercedes? Not many I know but that is not my point. I am merely pointing out what will prevent him for challenging for the title.

[mystiroakey]

so what is it then his tyre wear or the car?

[GSC]

Both.

Mercedes isn't kind on its tyres but neither is Hamiltons style

[mystiroakey]

No i meant whats the problem -lewis or the car as the reason they cant challenge for the title

[GSC]

The car is usually the biggest difference maker between drivers.

[mystiroakey]

So its not hamiltons supposed tyre wear issue then?

[GSC]

It still plays a part however. Neither are mutually exclusive

[mystiroakey]

Not exclusive. How so?

[monty junior]

Very good race today, excellent performances from the top 3. What was up with Massa though? i know there's the traffic excuse but he was 40 seconds behind his teamate and his pace was similar to force indias.

[mystiroakey]

well massa has been doing pretty well in the first couple- so must be something wrong with the set up i suppose

[Fernando]

We never really saw Alonso in traffic today he was always through within a couple laps so id expect Felipe's tyres were suffering in traffic, Also who'd have thought 1 lap would of made that much of a difference for him

[monty junior]

Even in clear air though he wasn't able to catch Di Resta who was on older tyres in the third stint, Felipe is qualifying much better but he is still a country mile off of Alonso in race conditions.

[Guest]

what a pointless argument by calendonian & Mysterioakey. There was a number of times hamilton went longer than button last season and vice versa, it's all dependent upon the conditions, traffic, suitability of the car to the track etc etc etc. It was put to bed that hamilton's style was too aggressive about a year ago when he got used to the change in the regulations and the importance of tyre management, he learnt alot from button, even i must admit that. Yesterday had nothing to do with 'poor tyre conservation', it was just a lack of pace on high fuel, an issue mercedes have struggled with over recent years, even rosberg was in serious trouble first five laps. They have improved but not on a level to their rivals and that's why hamilton in my opinion is probably fighting a losing battle to alonso, kimi and Vettel in the championship.

Also if I hear someone saying, 'wow, look how fast vettel was to hamilton in the last five laps, he must have better tyre conservation'......I will go mad. I do wonder what people actually look at when watching a race and how they dont understand the difference between fresh tyres and old ones.

[dyrewolfe]

what a pointless argument by calendonian & Mysterioakey. There was a number of times hamilton went longer than button last season and vice versa, it's all dependent upon the conditions, traffic, suitability of the car to the track etc etc etc. It was put to bed that hamilton's style was too aggressive about a year ago when he got used to the change in the regulations and the importance of tyre management, he learnt alot from button, even i must admit that. Yesterday had nothing to do with 'poor tyre conservation', it was just a lack of pace on high fuel, an issue mercedes have struggled with over recent years, even rosberg was in serious trouble first five laps. They have improved but not on a level to their rivals and that's why hamilton in my opinion is probably fighting a losing battle to alonso, kimi and Vettel in the championship.

Also if I hear someone saying, 'wow, look how fast vettel was to hamilton in the last five laps, he must have better tyre conservation'......I will go mad. I do wonder what people actually look at when watching a race and how they dont understand the difference between fresh tyres and old ones.

Not to mention the basic difference in performance between medium and soft compound tyres...and the fact Vettel was on a reverse tyre strategy, saving his softs for a very short final stint.

To be honest I don't think there's much to argue over.

The Mercedes isn't the best car with regard to tyre wear. On top of that, Hamilton is known for being harder on his tyres than some drivers, due to his aggressive driving style.

That said, his performance was at least on a par with Raikkonen, whose Lotus is supposed to be easier on its tyres. They were on similar strategies too.


Back on to general car performance I think its obvious Mercedes don't have the pace to match Ferrari. Even allowing for their usual blistering starts, the way Hamilton got mugged down the straight by both Alonso and Massa, for me showed Mercedes still have a lot of work to do, if they want to try and stay with the leaders over the season.

Judging from Lewis & Kimi's races, I'd say Mercedes are at least on a par with Lotus.

For me Red Bull are something of an enigma. With the right tyres they can be devastatingly fast, but when stuck with tyre choices that don't favour them, they do struggle and are forced to take gambles.

Something tells me Pirelli could have as big a say in the title race as any of the teams.

[mystiroakey]

what a pointless argument by calendonian & Mysterioakey. There was a number of times hamilton went longer than button last season and vice versa, it's all dependent upon the conditions, traffic, suitability of the car to the track etc etc etc. It was put to bed that hamilton's style was too aggressive about a year ago when he got used to the change in the regulations and the importance of tyre management, he learnt alot from button, even i must admit that. Yesterday had nothing to do with 'poor tyre conservation', it was just a lack of pace on high fuel, an issue mercedes have struggled with over recent years, even rosberg was in serious trouble first five laps. They have improved but not on a level to their rivals and that's why hamilton in my opinion is probably fighting a losing battle to alonso, kimi and Vettel in the championship.

Also if I hear someone saying, 'wow, look how fast vettel was to hamilton in the last five laps, he must have better tyre conservation'......I will go mad. I do wonder what people actually look at when watching a race and how they dont understand the difference between fresh tyres and old ones.

it sounds as though you are agreeing with me tbh! not sure what how your post is any less pointless than mine. Considering your just aggreeing with me!!

[Guest]

Something tells me Pirelli could have as big a say in the title race as any of the teams.

That's what worries me the most dyrewolf.

@mystioakey - too be honest with you i read a few of the comments and thought, 'oh no, not another hamilton aggressive driving style argument', so I just skipped quite a bit of the conversation or debate. I apologise. If we agree then great, that's all that matters.

[CaledonianCraig]

Gee whiz what a bunch of touchy posters. I merely point out Hamilton's problem in this tyre deg area and people swoop as if I am slagging him off. Oh well....

[mystiroakey]

sorry craig i may have gone ott pal.. I just dont see it as being a problem for him specifically or a problem that can be contained and at the same time still perform at the same level..

you are right that tyre drg is an issue and something all teams have to handle wisely,

However i feel the bigger issue is that the merc isnt at the correct level to compete(immaterial of who drives). But tbh we all knew this anyway- Merc and brawns plan was allways to try and capitilise on next season

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Gee whiz what a bunch of touchy posters. I merely point out Hamilton's problem in this tyre deg area and people swoop as if I am slagging him off. Oh well....

You can't touch the messiah Craig, come on now...

[CaledonianCraig]

sorry craig i may have gone ott pal.. I just dont see it as being a problem for him specifically or a problem that can be contained and at the same time still perform at the same level..

you are right that tyre drg is an issue and something all teams have to handle wisely,

However i feel the bigger issue is that the merc isnt at the correct level to compete(immaterial of who drives). But tbh we all knew this anyway- Merc and brawns plan was allways to try and capitilise on next season

No probs. It would be great if Lewis could put in a title challenge but as things stand I cannot see it this season at least. The Merc is improved from last year but it isn't strong on tyre management and that isn't what Lewis needs. At the mo it looks like the title will be a three way fight between Alonso, Vettel and Raikkonen.

[monty junior]

Hard to blame Hamilton as the Mercedes was one of the hardest cars on its tyres last year too, he is harder than most on his but by now he's probably learnt to adapt. It's that addage as well, what would we rather see, raw speed or holding on to the tyres as long as possible. I personally preferred the old Bridgestones and would make the racing even more exciting.

[CaledonianCraig]

To be fair to Pirrelli they have done exactly what the FIA have asked of them - supply tyres with variable wear and tear and performance levels.

[GSC]

Bridgestone tyres were so dull at the end. Everybody was 1 stopping

[CaledonianCraig]

Bridgestone tyres were so dull at the end. Everybody was 1 stopping

Yes I have to fully agree there.

[kingraf]

Felipe Massa is fifth in the race so far. This is our year...

book it!

[Belgarion of Riva]

Craig, you seem to have forgotten last year where Hamilton was superb on the tyres. I remember at Hungaroring in particular when he made less stops than everyone else and his team were bricking it and he won the race with ease.

This tyre management thing is a myth that Brundle started and whilst there have been instances of Lewis taking a lot out of the tyres, to suggest he can't manage them is not accurate.

[Guest]

Why the discussion about Hamilton's tyre management? As Belgarion and I have stated, Hamilton's problems this season have been 'lack of pace' on high fuel load a issue Mercedes have always had, it has nothing to do with Hamilton having tyre management issues. Is that clear? Has Hamilton had to make more stops than other drivers this year.......NO, or has he had worse problems in tyre management during races than Rosberg, again.....No. Mercedes are vulnerable at the beginning of races, hence why he lost time & places in Australia to Raikkonen & in China to the Ferrari's. There long run pace just is not quick enough to compete with Ferrari, however, I think there closer to Lotus and to an extent Red Bull. Qualifying pace is exceptional and is what is giving Hamilton an advantage but he will always be fighting a losing battle in the races to his rivals.

I hope they can sort it out not just because I'm a Hamilton fan but just as the highest British driver competing out there currently.

[dyrewolfe]

Hard to blame Hamilton as the Mercedes was one of the hardest cars on its tyres last year too, he is harder than most on his but by now he's probably learnt to adapt. It's that addage as well, what would we rather see, raw speed or holding on to the tyres as long as possible. I personally preferred the old Bridgestones and would make the racing even more exciting.

You obviously don't remember the Bridgestone-only era very well...the majority of the races were dull and processional.


Problem is, F1 has made a rod for its own back by having so many regulations concerning the design of the cars.

Because everyone is working to pretty much the same set of specifications, with only minor twists / variations depending on their interpretation of the rules, the biggest differences come from how much money you have to spend on R&D to develop your aero package...hence the discrepancy in performance between the front and back of the grid.

With this template, the difference in performance between the the top teams became ever smaller...resulting in overtaking becoming nigh on impossible, due to the increasing amount of turbulence created by the cars' aerodynamics and compounded even further when they decided to have a single tyre manufacturer.

DRS and multi-compound tyres aren't my preferred solution, but they at least help make races more interesting as a spectator sport.

Personally, I'd like to see a couple of things happen:

1) Introduce draconian aero laws, banning all but the simplest 80s-style front and rear wings.

2) Loosen design regulations to give teams more freedom to get the best package anyway they can, with more emphasis on mechanical grip rather than aero grip.

3) I'd also allow V10 and V12 engines up to 3 litres.

4) I'd also create a "privateers" or "non-works" category for the smaller teams, with a separate championship to give those at the back of the grid more incentive (of course there would need to be strict guidelines to define these entries). Lets face it F1 is essentially a 2-tier sport already so we may as well make it official.

5) Do away with DRS, KERS and multi-compound tyres - returning to the simple "slicks", "inters" and "wets" system. Whatever they've saved elsewhere, this new tyre system must be costing a fortune!

[Guest]

I agree that it's come to the point where Pirelli have gone too aggressive and having tyres, that they've probably spent millions of pounds developing, lasting only four or five laps is ridiculous. There isn't a need for both DRS & these differing tyre compounds in F1 because, as we saw in China, overtaking is just inevitable with no skill and come to the point where drivers are asking, 'should I fight him or not to keep position?, which is embarrassing in my opinion for motorsport. The problem is, Bernie is thinking about 'money' and wanting to excite and entertain the casual motorsport fan who complained about F1. Bernie will be wanting Pirelli to be aggressive and making the races unpredictable, therefore I can't see much changing because at the end of the day, F1 is more about the show than giving the drivers or the die hard motorsport enthusiasts what they want. Also, it's been evident that Red Bull's domination of the sport has been affected this season through the unpredictable nature of the tyre and surely ending Vettel's domination of the Championship will be a key feature to keeping the sport fresh, exciting and popular.

I like Point 4, where creating a Championship within a Championship for the 'non-works' or back of the grid teams. There is a clear divide through the grid with Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Lotus & Mercedes all being in the top tier of the sport and having a financial stronghold over the rest. Having another Championship would be an incentive for them to continue in the sport because as of now, watching Caterham & Marussia etc struggle at the back is pretty woeful at the moment, financially ludicrous to continue and without a realistic, achievable goal it's just pointless.

[SteveG]

DRS and crumbly tyres - get rid. Been saying it for years now.
Agree with reduced aero - wanna see drivers drive a car fast that's not so planted - more skill
and bring back re-fuelling.

[Guest]

Just an update - Pirelli have dropped the Soft Tyre choice for the Bahrain GP and will be replaced with the Medium compound this weekend.

Basically an admittance that their soft compound is an absolute joke and that they've succumbed to the criticism from drivers and fans.

[monty junior]

dyrewolfe,I remember it perfectly well, i don't mind long stints as that's been part of F1 for years. The problem was being stuck in the dirty air of cars ahead with no hope of passing, that's been eradicated with the DRS. I would rather see car's make two stops and spend more time on track rather than rolling around for a few laps trying to make soft tyres last more than a few laps, taints qualifying performance as well.

[monty junior]

Just an update - Pirelli have dropped the Soft Tyre choice for the Bahrain GP and will be replaced with the Medium compound this weekend.

Basically an admittance that their soft compound is an absolute joke and that they've succumbed to the criticism from drivers and fans.

Thank god, what's the point in effectively running qualifying tyres in a race.

[dyrewolfe]

dyrewolfe,I remember it perfectly well, i don't mind long stints as that's been part of F1 for years. The problem was being stuck in the dirty air of cars ahead with no hope of passing, that's been eradicated with the DRS. I would rather see car's make two stops and spend more time on track rather than rolling around for a few laps trying to make soft tyres last more than a few laps, taints qualifying performance as well.

My point wasn't about the long race stints, so much as the fact that since the tyres DID last so long, drivers often ended up running behind other cars, lap after lap, unable to overtake because there wasn't enough of a performance difference...made worse by the turbulence created by aerodynamics.

What DRS/KERS and variable tyre compounds has done is provide performances boosts for overtaking, while at the same time limiting any basic performace advantage, by forcing all teams to use tyres that degrade very quickly, thus forcing them to make more pit stops.

So, in one sense they've solved the problems created by their own design rules. However, its all very artificial.

If they simply banned most aerdynamic aids and gave teams more freedom to develop cars in other ways, you would dramatically reduce the turbulence problem and there would be more likelihood of cars having enough of a performance advantage that they wouldn't need things like KERS and DRS to overtake.

You also wouldn't need to force teams to use different tyre compounds to artificially alter their strategies.

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