Regional Rugby, NWQs, Development & The Way Forward

First topic message reminder :

Nice to see the DRAGONS continue to supply welsh players of the future,bit of a joke 4 non welsh in one swoop,its time to cut their funding as they do nothing for the welsh cause.

Well even if he relents from his original position to halfway it's still a poor deal for the regions....

Take the central contracting 'offer', relinquishing player control of the Wales squad for the exact same amount of funding (or near enough) was just a slap in the face. It wasn't an offer as the WRU offering to urine on the regions without the decency of calling it rain!!!

And then the player contracts would be at the WRU's mercy too, so North would have inevitably left the Scarlets anyway as the WRU wouldn't have covered the wage, again the offer of covering his wage was a slap to the Scarlets face by saying he would have to move to the Blues.

It seems everything the WRU has offered up until now was designed to insult and infuriate, how does that make for a fluid negotiating atmosphere?

To me the WRU are attempting to bully the regions into cutting their nose off to spite their face and then have to step in to help out on their terms further down the road!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Well even if he relents from his original position to halfway it's still a poor deal for the regions....

Take the central contracting 'offer', relinquishing player control of the Wales squad for the exact same amount of funding (or near enough) was just a slap in the face. It wasn't an offer as the WRU offering to urine on the regions without the decency of calling it rain!!!

And then the player contracts would be at the WRU's mercy too, so North would have inevitably left the Scarlets anyway as the WRU wouldn't have covered the wage, again the offer of covering his wage was a slap to the Scarlets face by saying he would have to move to the Blues.

It seems everything the WRU has offered up until now was designed to insult and infuriate, how does that make for a fluid negotiating atmosphere?

To me the WRU are attempting to bully the regions into cutting their nose off to spite their face and then have to step in to help out on their terms further down the road!!!

and it worked a treat.

Impeccable timing and guff from the mouthpiece of the WRU;

"Andy Howell: Regional self-interest sees talented Tavis Knoyle leave Welsh rugby
Rugby correspondent Andy Howell is astonished none of the Welsh regions showed any interest in signing Scarlets star Tavis Knoyle"
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/andy-howell-regional-self-interest-sees-3862552

I can't speak for the others, but why would Cardiff Blues want Tavis Knoyle when they already have Lloyd Williams as both could be called on by Wales.

None of the regions need Tavis Knoyle. Does he think we should sign every single Welsh player who would otherwise leave?

'The nine-times capped Glynneath product is from the Ospreys region but they didn’t show any interest in him despite their Samoa star Kahn Fotuali’i leaving for Northampton.

'Neither did the Blues or the Dragons so Knoyle has effectively been forced out of Welsh rugby. Surely, that can’t be good for the regional game?'


And then later on:


'You can’t help concluding the only reason he wasn’t wanted by the Scarlets or other Welsh regions is they didn’t rate him highly enough.'


Exactly, Andy. So what's the problem?

Andy Bowell is a right chod. I have been waiting for him to start his poisoned articles on Darren Edwards, like he did Paul Turner but none have been forthcoming.

I do wonder which of the three Welsh scrum halves on our books we should get rid of for Tavis Knoyle?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:'The nine-times capped Glynneath product is from the Ospreys region but they didn’t show any interest in him despite their Samoa star Kahn Fotuali’i leaving for Northampton.

'Neither did the Blues or the Dragons so Knoyle has effectively been forced out of Welsh rugby. Surely, that can’t be good for the regional game?'


And then later on:


'You can’t help concluding the only reason he wasn’t wanted by the Scarlets or other Welsh regions is they didn’t rate him highly enough.'


Exactly, Andy. So what's the problem?

The evil regions unsettling his lord and master most probably.

Astonishing isn't it.
Yesterday it was Pickering via the BBC answering a question nobody asked;
"I'm not prepared to enter into a position where we bankrupt the Union - I will not do it, it's wrong," he said.
and today it's Howell having a dig at the regions.
Pathetic.

Risca Rev wrote:Andy Bowell is a right chod. I have been waiting for him to start his poisoned articles on Darren Edwards, like he did Paul Turner but none have been forthcoming.

I do wonder which of the three Welsh scrum halves on our books we should get rid of for Tavis Knoyle?

Wayne or Jonny at a guess, neither are team wales members so must be useless.

Being serious, there are a few issues with Tav leaving the Scarlets. The first, and obvious one, is that he was injured post RWC and played next to no games last season. Then this season when he was finally fit, he played a few games, before going to hold tackle backs for team Wales in the AIs, and again in the 6Ns. So again he has played next to sod all rugby for the region. The second issue, kind of related, is that being a member of Team Wales he was definately far from value for money, given we have that we have three other decent option, who are available for more of the season, and I believe on less money. Just basic, trying to live in your means, ecconomics. The third issue, admittedly only hear-say is that there were some training ground issues with him too, which lead to a bit of a rift with him and Easters.

Seeing as the first two issues would really rear their heads no matter what region Tav went to then I can fully nderstand nobody wanting to sign a player that is not going to be value for money. However, I am suprised that he didn't return to the Ospreys, as they fought tooth and nail to try and get him to sign from Neath, and with Kahn going they needed a scrum half, and IMO Tav is a better option than Tito Tibaldi (even though Tibaldi's water boy tackle save the Ospreys from a home defeat to Zebre, thinking about that anyone else wonder if he had signed already?).

It really is such a pointless article (arguably written by a pointless article).

Andy Howell is a big fan of Tavis Knoyle and is upset that none of the regions signed him. That's all it amounts to. It's not worthy of publication.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It really is such a pointless article (arguably written by a pointless article).

Andy Howell is a big fan of Tavis Knoyle and is upset that none of the regions signed him. That's all it amounts to. It's not worthy of publication.

Aye, but it was a way of getting the words "Regional self-interest..." in the headline.

But what else does he expect? Should a region sign him even though they don't need him? Take it a step further: How would it benefit Knoyle himself to stay in Wales but never play any rugby?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:But what else does he expect? Should a region sign him even though they don't need him? Take it a step further: How would it benefit Knoyle himself to stay in Wales but never play any rugby?

Yes, his career would last longer due to less impact from games, and seeing as he would still be kicking around Team Wales, he would be earning a tidy amount for playing less games. It would be a pretty good screw IMO.

I would have preferred Knoyle to stay in Wales instead of Tebaldi coming in.

It's becoming a regular drip feed of 'regions suck' we are getting on a daily basis now.

In reality Knoyle is leaving the Scarlets because he isn't playing for them, between injuries and Wales call ups he basically commands a nice wage for a part time player.

Who in their right mind will sign up for that, Blus have a mooch in Lloyd Williams anyway, he's rubbish, AND doesn't play for them.

Ospreys Webb and that younger kid??? will be available all season.

And the Evans at Dragons are both probably superior players anyway.

Regional mindset has changed, with so much Poopie being shuvelled in their direction of late they have decided to look after themselves first and foremost, and fair play to them, Roberts was a nothing player commanding a lions wage at the blues 6 starts in 2 seasons I think it was, his wage will free up to sign 2 players who will quadriple that each!!!

In this economy Welsh internationals aren't worth keeping hold of, you never see them, they don't really care, and then you watch the guy your paying on the TV winning stuff and earning the WRU a fortune!!

Ha, well said, Bluesman!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:But what else does he expect? Should a region sign him even though they don't need him? Take it a step further: How would it benefit Knoyle himself to stay in Wales but never play any rugby?

Not sure what he expects. I reckon his objective (his brief maybe?) was to write a biased article to match an anti region, headline grabbing title. He's achieved that except the article is not only biased, it's a croc of shoite as well.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:But what else does he expect? Should a region sign him even though they don't need him? Take it a step further: How would it benefit Knoyle himself to stay in Wales but never play any rugby?

Not sure what he expects. I reckon his objective (his brief maybe?) was to write a biased article to match an anti region, headline grabbing title. He's achieved that except the article is not only biased, it's a croc of shoite as well.

Are you claiming he was given the headline and had to find a story to back it up???

Welsh regions kill rugby[u]

It was claimed yesterday that regional rugby failed to resign theire star players and allowed them to go to France and England, despite being able to afford at least 10 Wales international players each that would hardly burst their playing budget they decided to sign full squads of foreign players that won't help Wales rugby at all, and they won't even play to win grand slams.

international197 wrote:I would have preferred Knoyle to stay in Wales instead of Tebaldi coming in.

+1

Also I bet Tibaldi will get called up by Italy so the whole Knoyle will be holding tackle bags for team Wales is a non starter, the only argument you could probably have is that Knoyles wages would more than likely be higher than Tibaldi's, but I doubt there would be much in it.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:But what else does he expect? Should a region sign him even though they don't need him? Take it a step further: How would it benefit Knoyle himself to stay in Wales but never play any rugby?

Not sure what he expects. I reckon his objective (his brief maybe?) was to write a biased article to match an anti region, headline grabbing title. He's achieved that except the article is not only biased, it's a croc of shoite as well.

Are you claiming he was given the headline and had to find a story to back it up???

Maybe? It's a possibility that did cross my mind although there are others. After CCS (and the sham of regionalism), i'm conditioned to question anything and everything.

LordDowlais wrote:

international197 wrote:I would have preferred Knoyle to stay in Wales instead of Tebaldi coming in.

+1

Also I bet Tibaldi will get called up by Italy so the whole Knoyle will be holding tackle bags for team Wales is a non starter, the only argument you could probably have is that Knoyles wages would more than likely be higher than Tibaldi's, but I doubt there would be much in it.

-1

Are you an Ospreys fan today?

I am a Welsh rugby fan, I support all Welsh rugby including your beloved Cardiff Blues.

LordDowlais wrote:I am a Welsh rugby fan, I support all Welsh rugby including your beloved Cardiff Blues.

You're a typical cop out LD i'm afraid. How can you support every team in Wales FFS?
Ponty v Llanelli tomorrow at Sardis. Get your backside down there and see how it's done.

i used to be a Pontypridd season ticket holder pre regionalism, I am just far to busy with work now to give a Saturday up for a game of rugby, I will however try and finish early to get to an evening kick off game, I suppose your priorities change as you get older though.

LordDowlais wrote:i used to be a Pontypridd season ticket holder pre regionalism, I am just far to busy with work now to give a Saturday up for a game of rugby, I will however try and finish early to get to an evening kick off game, I suppose your priorities change as you get older though.

Ouch.

LordDowlais wrote:

international197 wrote:I would have preferred Knoyle to stay in Wales instead of Tebaldi coming in.

+1

Also I bet Tibaldi will get called up by Italy so the whole Knoyle will be holding tackle bags for team Wales is a non starter, the only argument you could probably have is that Knoyles wages would more than likely be higher than Tibaldi's, but I doubt there would be much in it.

Sorry, when did Italy decide they were playing a fourth international this autumn then? When did they require access to players over and above the ridiculous access the regions give Team Rog to their players? When was there an artificial premium placed on Italian players by virtue of you having to have so many in your squad? Yeah, Knoyle sounds like a hell of a buy in comparison.

thebluesmancometh wrote:It's becoming a regular drip feed of 'regions suck' we are getting on a daily basis now.

In reality Knoyle is leaving the Scarlets because he isn't playing for them, between injuries and Wales call ups he basically commands a nice wage for a part time player.

Who in their right mind will sign up for that, Blus have a mooch in Lloyd Williams anyway, he's rubbish, AND doesn't play for them.

Ospreys Webb and that younger kid??? will be available all season.

And the Evans at Dragons are both probably superior players anyway.

Regional mindset has changed, with so much Poopie being shuvelled in their direction of late they have decided to look after themselves first and foremost, and fair play to them, Roberts was a nothing player commanding a lions wage at the blues 6 starts in 2 seasons I think it was, his wage will free up to sign 2 players who will quadriple that each!!!

In this economy Welsh internationals aren't worth keeping hold of, you never see them, they don't really care, and then you watch the guy your paying on the TV winning stuff and earning the WRU a fortune!!

Spot on!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Well even if he relents from his original position to halfway it's still a poor deal for the regions....

Take the central contracting 'offer', relinquishing player control of the Wales squad for the exact same amount of funding (or near enough) was just a slap in the face. It wasn't an offer as the WRU offering to urine on the regions without the decency of calling it rain!!!

And then the player contracts would be at the WRU's mercy too, so North would have inevitably left the Scarlets anyway as the WRU wouldn't have covered the wage, again the offer of covering his wage was a slap to the Scarlets face by saying he would have to move to the Blues.

It seems everything the WRU has offered up until now was designed to insult and infuriate, how does that make for a fluid negotiating atmosphere?

To me the WRU are attempting to bully the regions into cutting their nose off to spite their face and then have to step in to help out on their terms further down the road!!!

Remind yourself that the set up in Wales is different to that in Ireland and Scotland.

The regions are independent commercial entities and therefore any agreements with the WRU are signed on an arm's length basis.

They can't be bullied into doing anything especially when you consider the wealth of individuals such as Peter Thomas, the owner of the blues.

The regions signed a five year participation agreement with the WRU back in 2008 worth £30million in which they agreed to the current arrangement regarding player release etc.

There is nothing more to say.

Scrumdown wrote:
The regions are independent commercial entities and therefore any agreements with the WRU are signed on an arm's length basis.

Clueless stuff as usual. If they're independent, why do the WRU negotiate and distribute the tv money earned by the regions just for starters like? Why does one of Roger's PIs include ensuring the health of the regional game? An absolutely barking conclusion to make.

Scrumdown wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Well even if he relents from his original position to halfway it's still a poor deal for the regions....

Take the central contracting 'offer', relinquishing player control of the Wales squad for the exact same amount of funding (or near enough) was just a slap in the face. It wasn't an offer as the WRU offering to urine on the regions without the decency of calling it rain!!!

And then the player contracts would be at the WRU's mercy too, so North would have inevitably left the Scarlets anyway as the WRU wouldn't have covered the wage, again the offer of covering his wage was a slap to the Scarlets face by saying he would have to move to the Blues.

It seems everything the WRU has offered up until now was designed to insult and infuriate, how does that make for a fluid negotiating atmosphere?

To me the WRU are attempting to bully the regions into cutting their nose off to spite their face and then have to step in to help out on their terms further down the road!!!

Remind yourself that the set up in Wales is different to that in Ireland and Scotland.

The regions are independent commercial entities and therefore any agreements with the WRU are signed on an arm's length basis.

They can't be bullied into doing anything especially when you consider the wealth of individuals such as Peter Thomas, the owner of the blues.

The regions signed a five year participation agreement with the WRU back in 2008 worth £30million in which they agreed to the current arrangement regarding player release etc.

There is nothing more to say.

I'm not sure what your point is here, are you suggesting the WRU holds no power over which region is downgraded first? Are you suggesting the WRU can't make player stipulations such as wage caps and NWQ player limits? Are you claiming Peter Thomas can do what he wants when he wants to with the Blues???

I think you may need to do a bit of reading up

thebluesmancometh wrote:

I'm not sure what your point is here, are you suggesting the WRU holds no power over which region is downgraded first? Are you suggesting the WRU can't make player stipulations such as wage caps and NWQ player limits? Are you claiming Peter Thomas can do what he wants when he wants to with the Blues???

I think you may need to do a bit of reading up

I think you need to gain more understanding of how business works in the real world.

The only reason the union holds power over the regions is because they signed the participation agreement.

The only reason the regions felt compelled to sign that agreement is because they have failed to attract new sponsors, financial backers, increase commercial income etc so they were desparate for more financial assistance from the wru, whatever the price.

They are entering negotiations with the union from a weak bargaining position because they have failed to embrace the regional concept and are poorly run businesses. Just ask any ponty, bridgend or gwent valleys rugby fans if the 'regions' deserve more wru cash directed towards them and I think you know what the answer will be.

Scrumdown wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

I'm not sure what your point is here, are you suggesting the WRU holds no power over which region is downgraded first? Are you suggesting the WRU can't make player stipulations such as wage caps and NWQ player limits? Are you claiming Peter Thomas can do what he wants when he wants to with the Blues???

I think you may need to do a bit of reading up

I think you need to gain more understanding of how business works in the real world.

The only reason the union holds power over the regions is because they signed the participation agreement.

The only reason the regions felt compelled to sign that agreement is because they have failed to attract new sponsors, financial backers, increase commercial income etc so they were desparate for more financial assistance from the wru, whatever the price.

They are entering negotiations with the union from a weak bargaining position because they have failed to embrace the regional concept and are poorly run businesses. Just ask any ponty, bridgend or gwent valleys rugby fans if the 'regions' deserve more wru cash directed towards them and I think you know what the answer will be.

So the regions are responsible for the original setup of the system?

The regions are responsible for there being no Valleys team?

The regions are responsible for the poor relationships between regions and clubs?

And the regions are the devil?



You do know how the amazingly generous WRU funding is structured don't you? You do know how the participation agreement works don't you?

thebluesmancometh wrote:

So the regions are responsible for the original setup of the system?

The regions are responsible for there being no Valleys team?

The regions are responsible for the poor relationships between regions and clubs?

And the regions are the devil?



You do know how the amazingly generous WRU funding is structured don't you? You do know how the participation agreement works don't you?

I think if you change 'regions' to 'owners of regions' my answer to all your questions would be yes.

It is also worth reminding you that the majority of professional sports teams make losses. All except northampton, Leicester and Exeter make losses in the aviva.

They rely on their owners to finance their losses, not the rfu! Also, clubs in england get £3.5million from rfu and television contracts via prl which is less than regions get of £3.75million!

Regions have set their salary cap at £3.5million whilst aviva clubs have set it at £4.5million. Saracens made losses last year of £5million but they have generous owners.

Also english international players do not play more games for their clubs than welsh internationals. Robshaw played 19 games for harlequins this year which is more than any other england international. North played 18 for scarlets.

Irish and scottish teams receive more from their unions because they are owned by the unions. It is easier for the irfu to throw money at the provinces when they have full control over how that money is spent.

Scrumdown wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

So the regions are responsible for the original setup of the system?

The regions are responsible for there being no Valleys team?

The regions are responsible for the poor relationships between regions and clubs?

And the regions are the devil?



You do know how the amazingly generous WRU funding is structured don't you? You do know how the participation agreement works don't you?

I think if you change 'regions' to 'owners of regions' my answer to all your questions would be yes.

It is also worth reminding you that the majority of professional sports teams make losses. All except northampton, Leicester and Exeter make losses in the aviva.

They rely on their owners to finance their losses, not the rfu! Also, clubs in england get £3.5million from rfu and television contracts via prl which is less than regions get of £3.75million!

Regions have set their salary cap at £3.5million whilst aviva clubs have set it at £4.5million. Saracens made losses last year of £5million but they have generous owners.

Also english international players do not play more games for their clubs than welsh internationals. Robshaw played 19 games for harlequins this year which is more than any other england international. North played 18 for scarlets.

Irish and scottish teams receive more from their unions because they are owned by the unions. It is easier for the irfu to throw money at the provinces when they have full control over how that money is spent.

Scrumdown wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

So the regions are responsible for the original setup of the system?

The regions are responsible for there being no Valleys team?

The regions are responsible for the poor relationships between regions and clubs?

And the regions are the devil?



You do know how the amazingly generous WRU funding is structured don't you? You do know how the participation agreement works don't you?

I think if you change 'regions' to 'owners of regions' my answer to all your questions would be yes.

It is also worth reminding you that the majority of professional sports teams make losses. All except northampton, Leicester and Exeter make losses in the aviva.

They rely on their owners to finance their losses, not the rfu! Also, clubs in england get £3.5million from rfu and television contracts via prl which is less than regions get of £3.75million!

Regions have set their salary cap at £3.5million whilst aviva clubs have set it at £4.5million. Saracens made losses last year of £5million but they have generous owners.

Also english international players do not play more games for their clubs than welsh internationals. Robshaw played 19 games for harlequins this year which is more than any other england international. North played 18 for scarlets.

Irish and scottish teams receive more from their unions because they are owned by the unions. It is easier for the irfu to throw money at the provinces when they have full control over how that money is spent.

Scrumdown wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Well even if he relents from his original position to halfway it's still a poor deal for the regions....

Take the central contracting 'offer', relinquishing player control of the Wales squad for the exact same amount of funding (or near enough) was just a slap in the face. It wasn't an offer as the WRU offering to urine on the regions without the decency of calling it rain!!!

And then the player contracts would be at the WRU's mercy too, so North would have inevitably left the Scarlets anyway as the WRU wouldn't have covered the wage, again the offer of covering his wage was a slap to the Scarlets face by saying he would have to move to the Blues.

It seems everything the WRU has offered up until now was designed to insult and infuriate, how does that make for a fluid negotiating atmosphere?

To me the WRU are attempting to bully the regions into cutting their nose off to spite their face and then have to step in to help out on their terms further down the road!!!

Remind yourself that the set up in Wales is different to that in Ireland and Scotland.

The regions are independent commercial entities and therefore any agreements with the WRU are signed on an arm's length basis.

They can't be bullied into doing anything especially when you consider the wealth of individuals such as Peter Thomas, the owner of the blues.

The regions signed a five year participation agreement with the WRU back in 2008 worth £30million in which they agreed to the current arrangement regarding player release etc.

There is nothing more to say.

Keep up. There is loads to say which is why the 4 and the WRU met this week.

WRU up to their usual tricks I see:

WALES'S rugby regions remain as financially challenged as ever after their hopes of more cash from the Welsh Rugby Union came to nothing.

Representatives from the Ospreys, Scarlets, Blues and Dragons met with the governing body amid speculation that attitudes had softened on the union side and there could be extra help for the professional teams.

But the get-together didn't bring any significant change in terms of increased funding.

Instead, there is believed to have been an offer for the Professional Regional Game Board to become operational but with the proviso that the independent chairman sits in a non-voting capacity


A WRU source told the Evening Post that the governing body's full board had met in advance of the get-together and voted on four options that were put to them by the union hierarchy. Their choice was then offered to the regions, who could be forgiven for seeing the outcome as underwhelming.

They now have to decide whether or not to accept the latest proposals from the union.

A positive spin would see the developments as amounting to progress of sorts, in that at least there is an opportunity for a forum to allow the two sides to talk to each other again.

But those who don't see sunbeams poking from behind every cloud might wonder how the PRGB with an independent non-voting chairman differs significantly from the old management board that used to oversee the professional game in Wales.

WRU chairman David Pickering had taken to the airwaves in advance of last Thursday's meeting, declaring in a radio interview the union were not prepared to "bankrupt" the governing body to keep leading players in Wales.

It all means that no end is in sight for the problems that have blighted the regions in recent times and contributed to the departure of the likes of Jamie Roberts, Dan Lydiate, George North and James Hook from the Welsh scene.

http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/extra-cash-regions-ponder-Welsh-Rugby-Union-offer/story-19043616-detail/story.html#axzz2TvajavMu

There is believed to have been an offer for the Professional Regional Game Board to become operational but with the proviso that the independent chairman sits in a non-voting capacity


A WRU source told the Evening Post that the governing body's full board had met in advance of the get-together and voted on four options that were put to them by the union hierarchy. Their choice was then offered to the regions, who could be forgiven for seeing the outcome as underwhelming.

This is truly crap. I bet we'll never hear what the other three options were, but they must have been terrible for the board to recommend the fourth. And now, of course, if the regions reject the offer, which they surely will, we'll have Roger declaring that the regions are against not only the executive but the full board of the WRU.

And the average daffodil-hat wearing Welsh moron on the street will lap it up...

That's the sad thing. Roger knows they will.

He was trumpeting what a huge breakthrough the PRGB was a few months ago. Now that he realises that the independent chairman might be genuinely independent, he doesn't want to know.

I believe the regions want independence from the WRU. The WRU wants control of the regions. I think that's the ongoing conflict. Because the WRU have [funding] power over the regions they believe they have a right to control them. However, they are not all-wise people and we all know that centralization of power does not work. It would be better if the regions were independent and the WRU concentrated on the national side, the age grade sides, the women's side and the sevens IMO. They want to tell the regions who they can and cannot sign, but the regions know better and therefore I'm against central contracts, against the WRU becoming too powerful and I think the regions ought to look after themselves. The WRU may help the regions with money, but once the money reaches the regions' account, I believe the WRU have no business in saying how the regions should spend it*. That's nothing to do with them and a small group of people can't look after the whole of Welsh rugby. The WRU place caps and restrictions on the regions, they determine how much the regions should pay their players, how many WQ/NWQ should be within the regions' sqauds etc. I believe this is an ominous power and the regions are fully capable of looking after themselves, and should have the freedom to decide their own salary caps and determine the number of WQ players they want themselves. There is no way that the WRU know what's best for every region. They are too big, too intrusive and they want control of the whole of Welsh rugby. If the regions stand up to the WRU, I believe the rest of Welsh rugby will follow. The WRU are afraid of letting the regions make their own decisions because they believe they are superior to the regions, and they fear that if the regions made their own decisions they would fail. The reality is the opposite, the regions know what's best for themselves, and if they made their own decisions, they would prosper. I think the WRU should mind their own business. As far as I know, the WRU borrowed a huge loan to build the Millennium Stadium about two decades ago, which was the beginning of the monopolisation of Welsh rugby. This enormous stadium of 73,000 capacity means that the small group of people who took out the loan and were responsible for building the Stadium have great power, filling a 73,000 capacity stadium several times a year gives them a lot of money and power. Not only does it give them a lot of money and a lot of power, the capacity of the Millennium Stadium means that power is taken away from the regions and clubs. In Ireland, the national stadium has a smaller capacity and their provinces enjoy larger crowds and more independence. The WRU have taken this power on board, but I believe for the sake of Welsh rugby, they ought to distribute their power and stop hoging it. They used this power to form to form the regions about a decade ago, and therefore they believe they 'own' the regions. But, the regions want to own themselves. It's as if the governing body of the WRU are kings of Welsh rugby telling everyone how everything should be. Let the regions control themselves.

*http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21983053

Stone Motif wrote:And the average daffodil-hat wearing Welsh moron on the street will lap it up...

And the ignorant regional rugby supporter swallows the tripe spoken by RRW regarding lack of funding.

Lack of funding is not a valid excuse.

The aviva premiership rugby teams in england (who are privately owned and therefore comparisons with the welsh regions are valid) each receive on average £3.5million per year via PRL for tv money and rfu player release compensation. This is less than the regions are guaranteed each season of £3.75million.

The salary cap in England has been set at £4.25million whereas the regions in Wales have set it at an uncompetitive £3.5million.

The reason Northampton could afford George North was because their management/owners have been better than the scarlets at generating income from other sources such as gate receipts, sponsorship etc. As I have previously stated funding from tv moneys and international player release is more or less the same although on average the welsh regions actually receive more.

What RRW are effectively saying is that the WRU should subsidise the scarlets for the fact that their poor management are unable to generate the level of commercial income that those running northampton have been able to do.

Anybody with a modicum of intelligence can see that this kind of arrangement is not viable in the long term and greater financial dependancy on the WRU (which RRW seem willing to accept) means more WRU influence and control to the point where you have to question what exactly is the point of having separate ownership.

Scrumdown wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:And the average daffodil-hat wearing Welsh moron on the street will lap it up...

And the ignorant regional rugby supporter swallows the tripe spoken by RRW regarding lack of funding.

Lack of funding is not a valid excuse.

The aviva premiership rugby teams in england (who are privately owned and therefore comparisons with the welsh regions are valid) each receive on average £3.5million per year via PRL for tv money and rfu player release compensation. This is less than the regions are guaranteed each season of £3.75million.

The salary cap in England has been set at £4.25million whereas the regions in Wales have set it at an uncompetitive £3.5million.

The reason Northampton could afford George North was because their management/owners have been better than the scarlets at generating income from other sources such as gate receipts, sponsorship etc. As I have previously stated funding from tv moneys and international player release is more or less the same although on average the welsh regions actually receive more.

What RRW are effectively saying is that the WRU should subsidise the scarlets for the fact that their poor management are unable to generate the level of commercial income that those running northampton have been able to do.

Anybody with a modicum of intelligence can see that this kind of arrangement is not viable in the long term and greater financial dependancy on the WRU (which RRW seem willing to accept) means more WRU influence and control to the point where you have to question what exactly is the point of having separate ownership.

So let me get this straight, the non existant regional structure forced upon an unwilling public is the reason the WRU are right and regions are all evil? The regions are making no attempts to produce a product sellable to the genral public and the alternative income streams that come with a popular product?

Pop your head around Cardiff once in a while, how do the Blues promote regional rugby when the WRU has exhausted every avenue of rugby promotion, using Ironically regional players!!!

Until the WRU decide to stop the hate campaign, stop monopolising rugby and stop the 'nazi esque' domination of power over the sport the game at regional level will continue to flounder, infact it's not just at regional level, the prem has been left to rot, even the WRU littlestars campaign is a blatant rip off of other companies, with an agressive domination of junior rugby marketing model.

Scrumdown wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:And the average daffodil-hat wearing Welsh moron on the street will lap it up...

And the ignorant regional rugby supporter swallows the tripe spoken by RRW regarding lack of funding.

Lack of funding is not a valid excuse.

The aviva premiership rugby teams in england (who are privately owned and therefore comparisons with the welsh regions are valid) each receive on average £3.5million per year via PRL for tv money and rfu player release compensation. This is less than the regions are guaranteed each season of £3.75million.

The salary cap in England has been set at £4.25million whereas the regions in Wales have set it at an uncompetitive £3.5million.

The reason Northampton could afford George North was because their management/owners have been better than the scarlets at generating income from other sources such as gate receipts, sponsorship etc. As I have previously stated funding from tv moneys and international player release is more or less the same although on average the welsh regions actually receive more.

What RRW are effectively saying is that the WRU should subsidise the scarlets for the fact that their poor management are unable to generate the level of commercial income that those running northampton have been able to do.

Anybody with a modicum of intelligence can see that this kind of arrangement is not viable in the long term and greater financial dependancy on the WRU (which RRW seem willing to accept) means more WRU influence and control to the point where you have to question what exactly is the point of having separate ownership.

Case in point, here's the moron in chief. Back to the drawing board with you Scrumdown, when you scrabble together a clue maybe you can start to represent your daffodil-behatted army of zombies.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

So let me get this straight, the non existant regional structure forced upon an unwilling public is the reason the WRU are right and regions are all evil? The regions are making no attempts to produce a product sellable to the genral public and the alternative income streams that come with a popular product?

Pop your head around Cardiff once in a while, how do the Blues promote regional rugby when the WRU has exhausted every avenue of rugby promotion, using Ironically regional players!!!

Until the WRU decide to stop the hate campaign, stop monopolising rugby and stop the 'nazi esque' domination of power over the sport the game at regional level will continue to flounder, infact it's not just at regional level, the prem has been left to rot, even the WRU littlestars campaign is a blatant rip off of other companies, with an agressive domination of junior rugby marketing model.

Once again you make all these accuations of the WRU but anyone can see that all it ever amounts to is incoherent drivel.

You can't blame regional rugby. The Cardiff blues for example have never adopted the concept of regional rugby. Peter Thomas and Cardiff rfc benefited from regional rugby because it meant that funding was split 4 ways rather than 9. They also had a larger pool of players to select from and potentially a larger supporter base. So what exactly are you on about?

The product is poor because key decisions such as coaching appointments and player recruitment are being made by individuals who are not qualified for their roles. If Warren Gatland was in charge of the blues then they wouldn't be languishing at the bottom of the pro12, attendances would be higher and sponsors would come on board. Phil Davies, Steve Tandy, Simon Easterby and Darren Edwards would not get employment as head coaches anywhere else.

Also, if lack of wru funding was the only issue then each of our regions would be performing equally abysmally. The aviva teams in england would also be stuggling as they receive on average the same amoumt of funding as the welsh regions.

It is also worth pointing out that the Ospreys, who receive an equal amount of funding to the dragons produce a far better product. So it is not all about funding.

It is about having the right people in charge who make the right decisions. The problem is that the individuals in charge at the regions are the multi millionaire owners who do not have the knowledge or the expertise to make the correct decisions regarding amongst other things coaching appointments.

The salary cap of £3.5million is already covered by tv money and wru funding. The owners are no longer funding the regions and so RRW basically want the wru to pay peter thomas to make poor decisions on behalf of the blues. It is a joke.

Regional coaches can't be that bad if Dai Young and Nigel Davies were 'bought' by English Prem clubs, akso Phik Davies was a English Prem coach at two different teams. Add to that Lyn Jones, Sean Holey, and Humphreys all working elsewhere too. Regional coaches seem to be deemed decent enough elsewhere.

Scrumdown wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

So let me get this straight, the non existant regional structure forced upon an unwilling public is the reason the WRU are right and regions are all evil? The regions are making no attempts to produce a product sellable to the genral public and the alternative income streams that come with a popular product?

Pop your head around Cardiff once in a while, how do the Blues promote regional rugby when the WRU has exhausted every avenue of rugby promotion, using Ironically regional players!!!

Until the WRU decide to stop the hate campaign, stop monopolising rugby and stop the 'nazi esque' domination of power over the sport the game at regional level will continue to flounder, infact it's not just at regional level, the prem has been left to rot, even the WRU littlestars campaign is a blatant rip off of other companies, with an agressive domination of junior rugby marketing model.

Once again you make all these accuations of the WRU but anyone can see that all it ever amounts to is incoherent drivel.

You can't blame regional rugby. The Cardiff blues for example have never adopted the concept of regional rugby. Peter Thomas and Cardiff rfc benefited from regional rugby because it meant that funding was split 4 ways rather than 9. They also had a larger pool of players to select from and potentially a larger supporter base. So what exactly are you on about?

The product is poor because key decisions such as coaching appointments and player recruitment are being made by individuals who are not qualified for their roles. If Warren Gatland was in charge of the blues then they wouldn't be languishing at the bottom of the pro12, attendances would be higher and sponsors would come on board. Phil Davies, Steve Tandy, Simon Easterby and Darren Edwards would not get employment as head coaches anywhere else.

Also, if lack of wru funding was the only issue then each of our regions would be performing equally abysmally. The aviva teams in england would also be stuggling as they receive on average the same amoumt of funding as the welsh regions.

It is also worth pointing out that the Ospreys, who receive an equal amount of funding to the dragons produce a far better product. So it is not all about funding.

It is about having the right people in charge who make the right decisions. The problem is that the individuals in charge at the regions are the multi millionaire owners who do not have the knowledge or the expertise to make the correct decisions regarding amongst other things coaching appointments and that the only region with WRU participation is not only the worst performing region but the regional going backwards at a rate of knots

The salary cap of £3.5million is already covered by tv money and wru funding. The owners are no longer funding the regions and so RRW basically want the wru to pay peter thomas to make poor decisions on behalf of the blues. It is a joke.

you legend, on inception who exactly were the larger pool of players the Blues had to select from? and where was their region to embrace the concept of?

Also with regards to 'key decisions' of coaches, who do you think appointed and is keeping Edwards in a job at the dragons?

Any which way you look at it, inception, regionalism, finance, stipulations, control the WRU doesn't have a leg to stand on!

Bluesman,

The points you make are always either irrelevant, incoherent or usually both.

You prefer to engage in petty point scoring on minor details on a subject which you clearly do not have the Accounting or legal knowledge to fully understand.

Why is it even relevant that the blues only had access to the warriors/ponty players two years into their inception?

Martyn Hazell appointed Darren Edwards. He also sacked Paul Turner. Fact.

Don't really get your no region to embrace drivel? Just another convenient excuse I'm afraid.

Scrumdown wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

So let me get this straight, the non existant regional structure forced upon an unwilling public is the reason the WRU are right and regions are all evil? The regions are making no attempts to produce a product sellable to the genral public and the alternative income streams that come with a popular product?

Pop your head around Cardiff once in a while, how do the Blues promote regional rugby when the WRU has exhausted every avenue of rugby promotion, using Ironically regional players!!!

Until the WRU decide to stop the hate campaign, stop monopolising rugby and stop the 'nazi esque' domination of power over the sport the game at regional level will continue to flounder, infact it's not just at regional level, the prem has been left to rot, even the WRU littlestars campaign is a blatant rip off of other companies, with an agressive domination of junior rugby marketing model.

You can't blame regional rugby. The Cardiff blues for example have never adopted the concept of regional rugby. Peter Thomas and Cardiff rfc benefited from regional rugby because it meant that funding was split 4 ways rather than 9. They also had a larger pool of players to select from and potentially a larger supporter base. So what exactly are you on about?

What is this larger pool of players you mention?