Tuilagi

by R!skysports Mon 15 Apr 2013, 4:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

Have to say, I am a little worried about taking Tuilagi on the Lions now.

This weekend Leicester had almost all the ball, and he was totally anonymous.

If he can not impose himself on a game with 60-70% possession, and it totally outplayed by his own team mate in center - who made countless line breaks and looked dangerous - I do start to worry

by Cyril Thu 18 Apr 2013, 12:18 am

by EngInAuck Thu 18 Apr 2013, 2:55 am

maestegmafia wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Tuilagi in the Lions side will make space for others as he will attract more defenders. So when he has an off game as some say it - invariably those outside him are the ones being praised. (making the breaks and scoring the trys)

Tuilagi will disappear as he does in any game where he meets decent players in the centre. He is a winger forced into a thirteen shirt and cant handle playing as an outside centre when challenged.

Agreed ,Just like against Nz when he played against Ma'nonu and Conrad Smith. thumbsup

by majesticimperialman Thu 18 Apr 2013, 5:35 am

EngInAuck wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Tuilagi in the Lions side will make space for others as he will attract more defenders. So when he has an off game as some say it - invariably those outside him are the ones being praised. (making the breaks and scoring the trys)

Tuilagi will disappear as he does in any game where he meets decent players in the centre. He is a winger forced into a thirteen shirt and cant handle playing as an outside centre when challenged.

Agreed ,Just like against Nz when he played against Ma'nonu and Conrad Smith.

EnglandinAuck.

maestegmafia did say (Decent centres) did he not. Sorry

by maestegmafia Thu 18 Apr 2013, 6:23 am

majesticimperialman wrote:
EngInAuck wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Tuilagi in the Lions side will make space for others as he will attract more defenders. So when he has an off game as some say it - invariably those outside him are the ones being praised. (making the breaks and scoring the trys)

Tuilagi will disappear as he does in any game where he meets decent players in the centre. He is a winger forced into a thirteen shirt and cant handle playing as an outside centre when challenged.

Agreed ,Just like against Nz when he played against Ma'nonu and Conrad Smith.

EnglandinAuck.

maestegmafia did say (Decent centres) did he not.

Considering England's performances in the Six Nations were far more like their performances vs Australia and SA I would say that All Blacks victory wasn't any indication of England as a decent side. More that the Norovirus really had affected the ABs squad quite severely.

As a result in the last few years it is definitely the white elephant in the pack.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 18 Apr 2013, 7:04 am

I think we are agreed that Manu is not BOD. If that is the benchmark then heaven help all centres playing in NH and the next generation.

Manu had a good first half of the season at club and international level. Decent performances against Aus and SA were topped off by a sterling one against NZ. Standout club performances were against the Ospreys.

His form in the second half of the season has not been so good and it took time after his achilles injurt to get up to speed. Good performances such as against France & Northampton have flanked poor ones such as against Wales. There was a tactical plan to use him as a decoy against Toulon, and at the moment Manu's biggest weakness is to follow game plans rigidly. If he is to progress as a player he needs to read the game better - perhaps this will nhappen, perhaps not. The oft-quoted comparison with Nonu shows that it can. Despite getting little ball - the sumptuous take and give in the first half that committed two Toulon attackers and gave Thompstone the sort of space that a more natural finisher would have revelled in was divine.

To constantly hurl brickbats and denigrate a player without ever acknowlegding their good bits always tends to suggest there is an ulterior motive.

Is he the Messiah?

NO.

He is a very ~~naughty boy~~ good rugby player though.

by EngInAuck Thu 18 Apr 2013, 7:48 am

maestegmafia wrote:

Considering England's performances in the Six Nations were far more like their performances vs Australia and SA I would say that All Blacks victory wasn't any indication of England as a decent side. More that the Norovirus really had affected the ABs squad quite severely.

As a result in the last few years it is definitely the white elephant in the pack.

What a rubbish argument, Had The All Blacks play badly that day i would agree , but that wasn't the case. England didn't allow them to play by effectively using their Rush defence ect ect ect ect but that doesn't belong on this thread. Feel Free to start up a thread explaining your reason why England are a terrible team because: They import Thier players, they cant score tries, they are arrogant .... im sure you can think of a few more.

But back on topic , Manu is a world class centre and has proved it on numerous occasions in recent times Notably Vs Nz , France(2012) Wales(Pre RWC) , granted he was out of form towards the end of the 6N but compared to Jamie Roberts who until the England game hadn't really stood out on the International scene since 2009 He is defiantly a good choice to put on the Plane. He is a Huge Talent and has to be in the Match Day Squad at least in Oz.

by Jimpy Thu 18 Apr 2013, 8:41 am

EngInAuck wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:

Considering England's performances in the Six Nations were far more like their performances vs Australia and SA I would say that All Blacks victory wasn't any indication of England as a decent side. More that the Norovirus really had affected the ABs squad quite severely.

As a result in the last few years it is definitely the white elephant in the pack.

What a rubbish argument, Had The All Blacks play badly that day i would agree , but that wasn't the case. England didn't allow them to play by effectively using their Rush defence ect ect ect ect but that doesn't belong on this thread. Feel Free to start up a thread explaining your reason why England are a terrible team because: They import Thier players, they cant score tries, they are arrogant .... im sure you can think of a few more.

But back on topic , Manu is a world class centre and has proved it on numerous occasions in recent times Notably Vs Nz , France(2012) Wales(Pre RWC) , granted he was out of form towards the end of the 6N but compared to Jamie Roberts who until the England game hadn't really stood out on the International scene since 2009 He is defiantly a good choice to put on the Plane. He is a Huge Talent and has to be in the Match Day Squad at least in Oz.

Get used to it....

by beshocked Thu 18 Apr 2013, 8:47 am

LondonTiger of course BOD is the benchmark.

Tuilagi will never be like BOD because he's not that kind of player but he has the potential to be very good indeed. He's already shown his talent as you have said.

Tuilagi doesn't have the rugby brain of BOD or Conrad Smith but he brings other strengths.

The difficulty is finding an international player who compliments Tuilagi in the centres.

Perhaps 36 can do that job but we haven't seen that yet.

I know a lot of England fans think 36 is the messiah who will effortlessly link up with Tuilagi in an invincible centre partnership but I am yet to be convinced by 36.

In regards to the Lions I don't know who would compliment Tuilagi best.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 18 Apr 2013, 9:05 am

beshocked wrote:LondonTiger of course BOD is the benchmark.

Nah, BOD is the stretch target, what people would like to be as good as rather than the benchmark for how good you need to be to be a good player - otherwise we are consigning every other B&I centre of recent times to the scrapheap of mediocrity.

by Jimpy Thu 18 Apr 2013, 9:06 am

beshocked wrote:LondonTiger of course BOD is the benchmark.

Tuilagi will never be like BOD because he's not that kind of player but he has the potential to be very good indeed. He's already shown his talent as you have said.

Tuilagi doesn't have the rugby brain of BOD or Conrad Smith but he brings other strengths.

The difficulty is finding an international player who compliments Tuilagi in the centres.

Perhaps 36 can do that job but we haven't seen that yet.

I know a lot of England fans think 36 is the messiah who will effortlessly link up with Tuilagi in an invincible centre partnership but I am yet to be convinced by 36.

In regards to the Lions I don't know who would compliment Tuilagi best.

maestegmafia ?

by funnyExiledScot Thu 18 Apr 2013, 9:32 am

maestegmafia wrote:When Ireland or Leinster need Brian O'Driscoll they don't need to look for him, he is the guy dragging his team into the game. you can not say the same for Tuilagi.

Really?? When in the 6 Nations did that happen? I thought BOD had a really poor tournament. When Ireland needed him against Italy, their worst ever 6 Nations result, he stamped on someone and got yellow carded, and otherwise vanished. Good in the first game against Wales, thereafter pretty insignificant.

Oh, sorry, I'm criticising BOD. Cue howls of derision.

by beshocked Thu 18 Apr 2013, 10:13 am

LondonTiger wrote:
beshocked wrote:LondonTiger of course BOD is the benchmark.

Nah, BOD is the stretch target, what people would like to be as good as rather than the benchmark for how good you need to be to be a good player - otherwise we are consigning every other B&I centre of recent times to the scrapheap of mediocrity.

Benchmark is pretty subjective but comparing to the best isn't a bad one.

With England most centres are compared to Will Greenwood. Will anyone fill the shoes of him?

A lot of backrowers are compared to Richard Hill etc.

Londontiger also most players are criticised if they aren't as good as these guys like BOD,Smith,Hill,Mccaw,Wilkinson in his prime etc.

The amount of criticism for example Ronan O gara gets even though he has over 100 caps for Ireland, a GS, Munster's HC wins etc.

by lostinwales Thu 18 Apr 2013, 10:27 am

Honestly one good win against top quality opposition and they think they are world beaters.....

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 18 Apr 2013, 10:34 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:When Ireland or Leinster need Brian O'Driscoll they don't need to look for him, he is the guy dragging his team into the game. you can not say the same for Tuilagi.

Really?? When in the 6 Nations did that happen? I thought BOD had a really poor tournament. When Ireland needed him against Italy, their worst ever 6 Nations result, he stamped on someone and got yellow carded, and otherwise vanished. Good in the first game against Wales, thereafter pretty insignificant.

Oh, sorry, I'm criticising BOD. Cue howls of derision.

I'm reminded of the France game and Ireland was pressing for the line in the dying minutes. BOD was not captain, but grabbed the ball and took it to the point of where a penalty had been given. He would not concede defeat any more than he would be bowed.

Heaslip had no authority at that point as the stamp of authority had departed him.

BOD - a true and iconic leader.

Tuilagi - at this stage in his career - would be unjustly criticised by contemporaneous comparison with Drico.

by dragonbreath Thu 18 Apr 2013, 10:55 am

Jimpy wrote:
EngInAuck wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:

Considering England's performances in the Six Nations were far more like their performances vs Australia and SA I would say that All Blacks victory wasn't any indication of England as a decent side. More that the Norovirus really had affected the ABs squad quite severely.

As a result in the last few years it is definitely the white elephant in the pack.

What a rubbish argument, Had The All Blacks play badly that day i would agree , but that wasn't the case. England didn't allow them to play by effectively using their Rush defence ect ect ect ect but that doesn't belong on this thread. Feel Free to start up a thread explaining your reason why England are a terrible team because: They import Thier players, they cant score tries, they are arrogant .... im sure you can think of a few more.

But back on topic , Manu is a world class centre and has proved it on numerous occasions in recent times Notably Vs Nz , France(2012) Wales(Pre RWC) , granted he was out of form towards the end of the 6N but compared to Jamie Roberts who until the England game hadn't really stood out on the International scene since 2009 He is defiantly a good choice to put on the Plane. He is a Huge Talent and has to be in the Match Day Squad at least in Oz.

Get used to it....

Is he a good player though, or just genetically gifted. Outside of his natural physical attributes (it does run in the family) can you honestly say be brings anything else to the table. I don't really see any improvement in his all around game. Nonu has taken similar natural attributes and augmented them. Manu has not and may not have the capacity to do so. Sure he is a brute of a man but a well organised and similarily beefy opposition has been proven to render him a blunt instrument. I said before the England game that he did not bother me and he was indeed managed with some ease

by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Apr 2013, 11:08 am

dragonbreath, He's what, 22 now? For his age he's great. he will get better if he applies himself but deep down everyone knows he'll start at least 1 Lions game subject to injury. If you haven't seen any improvement in his handling and passing I don't think you've been watching very much. His offloading and quick passing have been very good in his last few games.

Think it's also worth bearing in mind he only converted from wing a few years ago.

If we view the England game where everyone was below par yes he's massively overrated. thats like me saying Carter can't tackle, pass or kick from 1 game in the Autumn though.

by beshocked Thu 18 Apr 2013, 11:09 am

dragonbreath bear in mind that Manu Tuilagi is only 21. He's still a very young man. Of course he can improve.

Manu looked like the complete package vs NZ. Good pace and power which we already know but good assists for Ashton and Barritt too showed his awareness.

Since then his form dropped for England but he's still a very good player. Not the finished article of course but he has the potential.

A lot of these young England players fall into that mould too

by Jimpy Thu 18 Apr 2013, 11:20 am

dragonbreath wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
EngInAuck wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:

Considering England's performances in the Six Nations were far more like their performances vs Australia and SA I would say that All Blacks victory wasn't any indication of England as a decent side. More that the Norovirus really had affected the ABs squad quite severely.

As a result in the last few years it is definitely the white elephant in the pack.

What a rubbish argument, Had The All Blacks play badly that day i would agree , but that wasn't the case. England didn't allow them to play by effectively using their Rush defence ect ect ect ect but that doesn't belong on this thread. Feel Free to start up a thread explaining your reason why England are a terrible team because: They import Thier players, they cant score tries, they are arrogant .... im sure you can think of a few more.

But back on topic , Manu is a world class centre and has proved it on numerous occasions in recent times Notably Vs Nz , France(2012) Wales(Pre RWC) , granted he was out of form towards the end of the 6N but compared to Jamie Roberts who until the England game hadn't really stood out on the International scene since 2009 He is defiantly a good choice to put on the Plane. He is a Huge Talent and has to be in the Match Day Squad at least in Oz.

Get used to it....

Is he a good player though, or just genetically gifted. Outside of his natural physical attributes (it does run in the family) can you honestly say be brings anything else to the table. I don't really see any improvement in his all around game. Nonu has taken similar natural attributes and augmented them. Manu has not and may not have the capacity to do so. Sure he is a brute of a man but a well organised and similarily beefy opposition has been proven to render him a blunt instrument. I said before the England game that he did not bother me and he was indeed managed with some ease

Managed with some ease?

Garbage. Wales had to chuck everything they had into the mid field to nullify him. Okay, if that's what you meant by 'with ease' then you may have a point. Its just unfortunate England could not then exploit the Welsh defence. And Tuilagi himself fumbled a try scoring take, so at that point (where he'd already crossed the Welsh tryline) who was 'managing' him from a Welsh defence perspective, cos there was nobody marking him seemingly.

Enquiring minds need to know.

by R!skysports Thu 18 Apr 2013, 12:29 pm

beshocked wrote:dragonbreath bear in mind that Manu Tuilagi is only 21. He's still a very young man. Of course he can improve.

Manu looked like the complete package vs NZ. Good pace and power which we already know but good assists for Ashton and Barritt too showed his awareness.

Since then his form dropped for England but he's still a very good player. Not the finished article of course but he has the potential.

A lot of these young England players fall into that mould too

The first part of the highlighted is the main question I tried to pose

I believe he is a good player and will cause a lot of problems to teams in his career and will work on improving, but at this time his form has dropped alarmingly and as such, should he tour on the hope it improves while there

by LordDowlais Thu 18 Apr 2013, 12:37 pm

So has this thread turned into who should partner Tuilagi for the Lions ? As if he is a certain starter for the test team. The answer everybody keeps saying is Billy Twelvetrees, so there we are this thread is all but over, and so are the Lions center issues and Englands all at the same time. God help us.

by nathan Thu 18 Apr 2013, 12:59 pm

I do wonder if people actually watch the Tigers play because some of the comments of so far off it's untrue!

by dragonbreath Thu 18 Apr 2013, 1:01 pm

Jimpy wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
EngInAuck wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:

Considering England's performances in the Six Nations were far more like their performances vs Australia and SA I would say that All Blacks victory wasn't any indication of England as a decent side. More that the Norovirus really had affected the ABs squad quite severely.

As a result in the last few years it is definitely the white elephant in the pack.

What a rubbish argument, Had The All Blacks play badly that day i would agree , but that wasn't the case. England didn't allow them to play by effectively using their Rush defence ect ect ect ect but that doesn't belong on this thread. Feel Free to start up a thread explaining your reason why England are a terrible team because: They import Thier players, they cant score tries, they are arrogant .... im sure you can think of a few more.

But back on topic , Manu is a world class centre and has proved it on numerous occasions in recent times Notably Vs Nz , France(2012) Wales(Pre RWC) , granted he was out of form towards the end of the 6N but compared to Jamie Roberts who until the England game hadn't really stood out on the International scene since 2009 He is defiantly a good choice to put on the Plane. He is a Huge Talent and has to be in the Match Day Squad at least in Oz.

Get used to it....

Is he a good player though, or just genetically gifted. Outside of his natural physical attributes (it does run in the family) can you honestly say be brings anything else to the table. I don't really see any improvement in his all around game. Nonu has taken similar natural attributes and augmented them. Manu has not and may not have the capacity to do so. Sure he is a brute of a man but a well organised and similarily beefy opposition has been proven to render him a blunt instrument. I said before the England game that he did not bother me and he was indeed managed with some ease

Managed with some ease?

Garbage. Wales had to chuck everything they had into the mid field to nullify him. Okay, if that's what you meant by 'with ease' then you may have a point. Its just unfortunate England could not then exploit the Welsh defence. And who was 'managing' him from a Welsh defence perspective, cos there was nobody marking him seemingly.

Enquiring minds need to know.

Wales had to chuck everything they had into the mid field to nullify him

Err No they didn't

Tuilagi himself fumbled a try scoring take, so at that point (where he'd already crossed the Welsh tryline)

I think you have the wrong opposition. He knocked on (great hands by the way) over the line against Ireland. He only had one potential opportunity against Wales and oh yeah his great hands dropped that as well

Other than that a point well made. Congratulations drumroll

by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Apr 2013, 1:05 pm

So comfortably contained means hoping for a knock on?

People seem to be bigging up Roberts purely on the basis he stopped Tuilagi. If he's so easy to stop I assume Roberts is still badly out of form and won't travel with the Lions?

by Triangulation Thu 18 Apr 2013, 1:08 pm

I see that this has got very juvenile.

Tuilagi is a terrific young player.

Note young. He is a work in progress.

Whether his talents are as a result of genetics , hard work or anything else is irrelevant.

He is only going to get better.

Attempts to downgrade England's performance or result agains the ABs are frankly pathetic.

p.s could they be something to do with the fact that wales have not beaten ABs since............................wait for it........................................1953?!

Yes i think attempts by welsh people to downgrade our win there says a lot more about them than anything else.

by dragonbreath Thu 18 Apr 2013, 1:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So comfortably contained means hoping for a knock on?

People seem to be bigging up Roberts purely on the basis he stopped Tuilagi. If he's so easy to stop I assume Roberts is still badly out of form and won't travel with the Lions?

It looked like Cuthbert had him lined up even had he taken the pass. He didn't so we will never know. For the rest of the game nothing. Maybe Leicester used him as a decoy against Toulon for a very good reason.

by Triangulation Thu 18 Apr 2013, 1:14 pm

beshocked wrote:dragonbreath bear in mind that Manu Tuilagi is only 21. He's still a very young man. Of course he can improve.

Manu looked like the complete package vs NZ. Good pace and power which we already know but good assists for Ashton and Barritt too showed his awareness.

Since then his form dropped for England but he's still a very good player. Not the finished article of course but he has the potential.

A lot of these young England players fall into that mould too

+1

Spot on

by lostinwales Thu 18 Apr 2013, 1:16 pm

So on one side we have a few welsh posters saying he is useless because he had some bad games, especially the last one vs Wales. And that he doesnt score with every touch of the ball

And on the other we have some people who are trying to point out that he isnt the whole package, but is only very young (21) (and has the potential to get better) and when hes used well he is devastating, having scored against every major team except SA (and, yes, Scotland). 10 tries from 19 starts is a pretty respectable return. (contrast the Welsh centers - both fine players - JD is 9 from 36 and JR is 5 from 53)

by Jimpy Thu 18 Apr 2013, 1:32 pm

dragonbreath wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
EngInAuck wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:

Considering England's performances in the Six Nations were far more like their performances vs Australia and SA I would say that All Blacks victory wasn't any indication of England as a decent side. More that the Norovirus really had affected the ABs squad quite severely.

As a result in the last few years it is definitely the white elephant in the pack.

What a rubbish argument, Had The All Blacks play badly that day i would agree , but that wasn't the case. England didn't allow them to play by effectively using their Rush defence ect ect ect ect but that doesn't belong on this thread. Feel Free to start up a thread explaining your reason why England are a terrible team because: They import Thier players, they cant score tries, they are arrogant .... im sure you can think of a few more.

But back on topic , Manu is a world class centre and has proved it on numerous occasions in recent times Notably Vs Nz , France(2012) Wales(Pre RWC) , granted he was out of form towards the end of the 6N but compared to Jamie Roberts who until the England game hadn't really stood out on the International scene since 2009 He is defiantly a good choice to put on the Plane. He is a Huge Talent and has to be in the Match Day Squad at least in Oz.

Get used to it....

Is he a good player though, or just genetically gifted. Outside of his natural physical attributes (it does run in the family) can you honestly say be brings anything else to the table. I don't really see any improvement in his all around game. Nonu has taken similar natural attributes and augmented them. Manu has not and may not have the capacity to do so. Sure he is a brute of a man but a well organised and similarily beefy opposition has been proven to render him a blunt instrument. I said before the England game that he did not bother me and he was indeed managed with some ease

Managed with some ease?

Garbage. Wales had to chuck everything they had into the mid field to nullify him. Okay, if that's what you meant by 'with ease' then you may have a point. Its just unfortunate England could not then exploit the Welsh defence. And who was 'managing' him from a Welsh defence perspective, cos there was nobody marking him seemingly.

Enquiring minds need to know.

Wales had to chuck everything they had into the mid field to nullify him

Err No they didn't

Tuilagi himself fumbled a try scoring take, so at that point (where he'd already crossed the Welsh tryline)

I think you have the wrong opposition. He knocked on (great hands by the way) over the line against Ireland. He only had one potential opportunity against Wales and oh yeah his great hands dropped that as well

Other than that a point well made. Congratulations

Er, no I don't have the wrong opposition, but then I was watching with both eyes, not through just one. Doh

by R!skysports Thu 18 Apr 2013, 1:39 pm

So this thread has become an England vs Wales bickering thread - what a surprise Tumbleweed

by Jimpy Thu 18 Apr 2013, 1:45 pm

Riskysports wrote:So this thread has become an England vs Wales bickering thread - what a surprise

Which is even sadder when its almost certain that Tuilagi will tour, probably as a first choice centre. So not only are the anti-campaign bashing themselves on the rocks of futility, they're also going to be disappointed.

by LordDowlais Thu 18 Apr 2013, 1:50 pm

When have I ever said that Tuilagi is rubbish ? All I am saying is, if we go to Australia with him and Twelvetrees we will have our rear ends shown to us. There are better centers than those two in Brtian and Ireland. thumbsup

by funnyExiledScot Thu 18 Apr 2013, 2:00 pm

Riskysports wrote:So this thread has become an England vs Wales bickering thread - what a surprise

Agreed. Pathetic.

by dragonbreath Thu 18 Apr 2013, 2:16 pm

Triangulation wrote:
beshocked wrote:dragonbreath bear in mind that Manu Tuilagi is only 21. He's still a very young man. Of course he can improve.

Manu looked like the complete package vs NZ. Good pace and power which we already know but good assists for Ashton and Barritt too showed his awareness.

Since then his form dropped for England but he's still a very good player. Not the finished article of course but he has the potential.

A lot of these young England players fall into that mould too

+1

Spot on

While there are many areas in which I agree he could improve. I think what you see is what you get. He will be same type of player at 31 or 32 (there seems to be some confusion among posters about his current age) as he is today.

The teams he plays in require no more from him, and with the media and fans telling him how great he is why would what is his motivation

by dragonbreath Thu 18 Apr 2013, 2:19 pm

Jimpy wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
EngInAuck wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:

Considering England's performances in the Six Nations were far more like their performances vs Australia and SA I would say that All Blacks victory wasn't any indication of England as a decent side. More that the Norovirus really had affected the ABs squad quite severely.

As a result in the last few years it is definitely the white elephant in the pack.

What a rubbish argument, Had The All Blacks play badly that day i would agree , but that wasn't the case. England didn't allow them to play by effectively using their Rush defence ect ect ect ect but that doesn't belong on this thread. Feel Free to start up a thread explaining your reason why England are a terrible team because: They import Thier players, they cant score tries, they are arrogant .... im sure you can think of a few more.

But back on topic , Manu is a world class centre and has proved it on numerous occasions in recent times Notably Vs Nz , France(2012) Wales(Pre RWC) , granted he was out of form towards the end of the 6N but compared to Jamie Roberts who until the England game hadn't really stood out on the International scene since 2009 He is defiantly a good choice to put on the Plane. He is a Huge Talent and has to be in the Match Day Squad at least in Oz.

Get used to it....

Is he a good player though, or just genetically gifted. Outside of his natural physical attributes (it does run in the family) can you honestly say be brings anything else to the table. I don't really see any improvement in his all around game. Nonu has taken similar natural attributes and augmented them. Manu has not and may not have the capacity to do so. Sure he is a brute of a man but a well organised and similarily beefy opposition has been proven to render him a blunt instrument. I said before the England game that he did not bother me and he was indeed managed with some ease

Managed with some ease?

Garbage. Wales had to chuck everything they had into the mid field to nullify him. Okay, if that's what you meant by 'with ease' then you may have a point. Its just unfortunate England could not then exploit the Welsh defence. And who was 'managing' him from a Welsh defence perspective, cos there was nobody marking him seemingly.

Enquiring minds need to know.

Wales had to chuck everything they had into the mid field to nullify him

Err No they didn't

Tuilagi himself fumbled a try scoring take, so at that point (where he'd already crossed the Welsh tryline)

I think you have the wrong opposition. He knocked on (great hands by the way) over the line against Ireland. He only had one potential opportunity against Wales and oh yeah his great hands dropped that as well

Other than that a point well made. Congratulations

Er, no I don't have the wrong opposition, but then I was watching with both eyes, not through just one.

I unlike others am happy to admit when I am wrong. I am still however unable to recall the passage of play to which you refer ie Tuillagi across the Welsh line and knocking on. Can you help me remember?

by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Apr 2013, 2:54 pm

dragonbreath, he wasn't over the line but it was a try if he'd caught it. I don't quite remember the Ireland chance as you do either but people make mistakes. I seem to remember a good run through to a chipped pass and the Ireland player doing very well to knock Tuilagis arm stopping him from scoring; hardly a knock on as you would like to make out ie from a mistake.

by Triangulation Thu 18 Apr 2013, 3:06 pm

dragonbreath wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
beshocked wrote:dragonbreath bear in mind that Manu Tuilagi is only 21. He's still a very young man. Of course he can improve.

Manu looked like the complete package vs NZ. Good pace and power which we already know but good assists for Ashton and Barritt too showed his awareness.

Since then his form dropped for England but he's still a very good player. Not the finished article of course but he has the potential.

A lot of these young England players fall into that mould too

+1

Spot on

While there are many areas in which I agree he could improve. I think what you see is what you get. He will be same type of player at 31 or 32 (there seems to be some confusion among posters about his current age) as he is today.The teams he plays in require no more from him, and with the media and fans telling him how great he is why would what is his motivation

How can you justifiably say this??! Players evolve all the time.

by dragonbreath Thu 18 Apr 2013, 3:25 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:dragonbreath, he wasn't over the line but it was a try if he'd caught it. I don't quite remember the Ireland chance as you do either but people make mistakes. I seem to remember a good run through to a chipped pass and the Ireland player doing very well to knock Tuilagis arm stopping him from scoring; hardly a knock on as you would like to make out ie from a mistake.

Don't be absurd he was 30 yards from the line how can you possibly say that was a try. Academic anyway he was not as the chatty chappy Jimpy would have it over the line and he dropped it anyway. Christ he could have called a taxi he was so far out.

Yes I was referring to the chip against Ireland which is what I thought Jimpy was talking about, so inaccurate was his recollection of the knock on in the Wales game.

Can't remember the refs call on the incident but there was as you say a contest for the ball which he lost. What is a good run through anyway. Surely a good run through would mean he had anticipated Youngs intention a little quicker got there first and scored. Chasing the ball and getting beaten to it is just running isn't it.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Apr 2013, 3:32 pm

dragon, based on what we've seen him do and his try scoring record from centre he would most likely have scored.

If Tuilagi had gone earlier he would have been offside so he judged it fine. Not too sure on the rules here but when he got to the ball he knocked it up into the air and as he was about to ctach it his arm was knocked by the Irishman. I assume as he'd touched it once he was judged to have had the ball hence not a penalty for a tackle without the ball? Was called as a knock on but hardly a mistake by Tuilagi. Perhaps someone here could clear it up?

by Triangulation Thu 18 Apr 2013, 3:33 pm

Triangulation wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
beshocked wrote:dragonbreath bear in mind that Manu Tuilagi is only 21. He's still a very young man. Of course he can improve.

Manu looked like the complete package vs NZ. Good pace and power which we already know but good assists for Ashton and Barritt too showed his awareness.

Since then his form dropped for England but he's still a very good player. Not the finished article of course but he has the potential.

A lot of these young England players fall into that mould too

+1

Spot on

While there are many areas in which I agree he could improve. I think what you see is what you get. He will be same type of player at 31 or 32 (there seems to be some confusion among posters about his current age) as he is today.The teams he plays in require no more from him, and with the media and fans telling him how great he is why would what is his motivation

How can you justifiably say this??! Players evolve all the time.

by RubyGuby Thu 18 Apr 2013, 3:36 pm

Triangulation wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
beshocked wrote:dragonbreath bear in mind that Manu Tuilagi is only 21. He's still a very young man. Of course he can improve.

Manu looked like the complete package vs NZ. Good pace and power which we already know but good assists for Ashton and Barritt too showed his awareness.

Since then his form dropped for England but he's still a very good player. Not the finished article of course but he has the potential.

A lot of these young Samoan players fall into that mould too

+2

Spot on

While there are many areas in which I agree he could improve. I think what you see is what you get. He will be same type of player at 31 or 32 (there seems to be some confusion among posters about his current age) as he is today.The teams he plays in require no more from him, and with the media and fans telling him how great he is why would what is his motivation

How can you justifiably say this??! Players evolve all the time.

by lostinwales Thu 18 Apr 2013, 3:36 pm

Eng -Ire- which was a great match in its way - was only notable as far as the backs were concerned for the kicking of the fly halves and the catching of the full backs and wings. Tuilagi did do a couple of things to get noticed however in the short time he was on the pitch - there was the chip over the line and one other point in open play (Cant remember now - was it an interception chance?) where he got in a position where a score was possible, however difficult.

He didnt score of course and both chances depended a lot on luck - but that he even got in a position where a try might have been a possibility was more than any other outside back managed that day.

by dragonbreath Thu 18 Apr 2013, 3:53 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:dragon, based on what we've seen him do and his try scoring record from centre he would most likely have scored.

If Tuilagi had gone earlier he would have been offside so he judged it fine. Not too sure on the rules here but when he got to the ball he knocked it up into the air and as he was about to ctach it his arm was knocked by the Irishman. I assume as he'd touched it once he was judged to have had the ball hence not a penalty for a tackle without the ball? Was called as a knock on but hardly a mistake by Tuilagi. Perhaps someone here could clear it up?

No he wouldn't have most likely scored. He was in any case already lined up by Cuthbert and would also have had to avoid being tackled by at least 3 other players, including a fullback who did not miss a single one on one tackle all tournament.

The adoration of this one trick pony is almost comical at times. I see someone else is praising him for almost being in the position to almost score picard

by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Apr 2013, 3:57 pm

Fair enough dragon no one will change your mind. I'm still hoping he lines up with BOD as I think that offers us our best chance against the Aussies.

by dragonbreath Thu 18 Apr 2013, 4:01 pm

RubyGuby wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
beshocked wrote:dragonbreath bear in mind that Manu Tuilagi is only 21. He's still a very young man. Of course he can improve.

Manu looked like the complete package vs NZ. Good pace and power which we already know but good assists for Ashton and Barritt too showed his awareness.

Since then his form dropped for England but he's still a very good player. Not the finished article of course but he has the potential.

A lot of these young Samoan players fall into that mould too

+2

Spot on

While there are many areas in which I agree he could improve. I think what you see is what you get. He will be same type of player at 31 or 32 (there seems to be some confusion among posters about his current age) as he is today.The teams he plays in require no more from him, and with the media and fans telling him how great he is why would what is his motivation

How can you justifiably say this??! Players evolve all the time.

Or disappear off the radar, and there are many examples of just that. If a better more rounded option comes through then Tuillagi will be gone. This is in fact much more common than players evolving, whatever that means exactly. Tuillagi is a basher, it is just of course an opinion but that is all I think he will ever be

by LordDowlais Thu 18 Apr 2013, 4:21 pm

dragonbreath wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
beshocked wrote:dragonbreath bear in mind that Manu Tuilagi is only 21. He's still a very young man. Of course he can improve.

Manu looked like the complete package vs NZ. Good pace and power which we already know but good assists for Ashton and Barritt too showed his awareness.

Since then his form dropped for England but he's still a very good player. Not the finished article of course but he has the potential.

A lot of these young Samoan players fall into that mould too

+2

Spot on

While there are many areas in which I agree he could improve. I think what you see is what you get. He will be same type of player at 31 or 32 (there seems to be some confusion among posters about his current age) as he is today.The teams he plays in require no more from him, and with the media and fans telling him how great he is why would what is his motivation

How can you justifiably say this??! Players evolve all the time.

Or disappear off the radar, and there are many examples of just that. If a better more rounded option comes through then Tuillagi will be gone. This is in fact much more common than players evolving, whatever that means exactly. Tuillagi is a basher, it is just of course an opinion but that is all I think he will ever be

There is already a ready made, more experianced, better version of him in Jamie Roberts, guess what the center pairings were for the last Lions tour, and gues who had player of the tour.

by Cyril Thu 18 Apr 2013, 4:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
beshocked wrote:dragonbreath bear in mind that Manu Tuilagi is only 21. He's still a very young man. Of course he can improve.

Manu looked like the complete package vs NZ. Good pace and power which we already know but good assists for Ashton and Barritt too showed his awareness.

Since then his form dropped for England but he's still a very good player. Not the finished article of course but he has the potential.

A lot of these young Samoan players fall into that mould too

+2

Spot on

While there are many areas in which I agree he could improve. I think what you see is what you get. He will be same type of player at 31 or 32 (there seems to be some confusion among posters about his current age) as he is today.The teams he plays in require no more from him, and with the media and fans telling him how great he is why would what is his motivation

How can you justifiably say this??! Players evolve all the time.

Or disappear off the radar, and there are many examples of just that. If a better more rounded option comes through then Tuillagi will be gone. This is in fact much more common than players evolving, whatever that means exactly. Tuillagi is a basher, it is just of course an opinion but that is all I think he will ever be

There is already a ready made, more experianced, better version of him in Jamie Roberts, guess what the center pairings were for the last Lions tour, and gues who had player of the tour.

Roberts hasn't been great for the best part of 4 years though. I'm not sure BOD is young enough to carry him through another tour.

by Triangulation Thu 18 Apr 2013, 4:40 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
beshocked wrote:dragonbreath bear in mind that Manu Tuilagi is only 21. He's still a very young man. Of course he can improve.

Manu looked like the complete package vs NZ. Good pace and power which we already know but good assists for Ashton and Barritt too showed his awareness.

Since then his form dropped for England but he's still a very good player. Not the finished article of course but he has the potential.

A lot of these young Samoan players fall into that mould too

+2

Spot on

While there are many areas in which I agree he could improve. I think what you see is what you get. He will be same type of player at 31 or 32 (there seems to be some confusion among posters about his current age) as he is today.The teams he plays in require no more from him, and with the media and fans telling him how great he is why would what is his motivation

How can you justifiably say this??! Players evolve all the time.

Or disappear off the radar, and there are many examples of just that. If a better more rounded option comes through then Tuillagi will be gone. This is in fact much more common than players evolving, whatever that means exactly. Tuillagi is a basher, it is just of course an opinion but that is all I think he will ever be

There is already a ready made, more experianced, better version of him in Jamie Roberts, guess what the center pairings were for the last Lions tour, and gues who had player of the tour.

Tuilagi is a basher correct. He is already a damned good one. But guess what he is more than that. Already. He can take intercepts e.g the one vs the Abs, he can pick lines e.g the try vs Wales where he did just that off a wilko pass and went over almost untouched, he can go down the wing from long range without being caught e,g the try he scored vs France in last years 6N.

So even now he is more than just a basher that you seem keen for reasons best known to yourself to want to categorise him as. WIth all of those raw materials at his disposal, the fact that he is so young and the good coaching that he will receive, he is much much more likely to evolve into a better player than he alreaddy undoubtedly is than he is to "disappear of the radar"
I can understand why you would want him to though! (which makes you very myopic) p.s this discussion is very little to do with Jamie ROberts who is an excellent player at 12.

by dragonbreath Thu 18 Apr 2013, 4:56 pm

Triangulation wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
beshocked wrote:dragonbreath bear in mind that Manu Tuilagi is only 21. He's still a very young man. Of course he can improve.

Manu looked like the complete package vs NZ. Good pace and power which we already know but good assists for Ashton and Barritt too showed his awareness.

Since then his form dropped for England but he's still a very good player. Not the finished article of course but he has the potential.

A lot of these young Samoan players fall into that mould too

+2

Spot on

While there are many areas in which I agree he could improve. I think what you see is what you get. He will be same type of player at 31 or 32 (there seems to be some confusion among posters about his current age) as he is today.The teams he plays in require no more from him, and with the media and fans telling him how great he is why would what is his motivation

How can you justifiably say this??! Players evolve all the time.

Or disappear off the radar, and there are many examples of just that. If a better more rounded option comes through then Tuillagi will be gone. This is in fact much more common than players evolving, whatever that means exactly. Tuillagi is a basher, it is just of course an opinion but that is all I think he will ever be

There is already a ready made, more experianced, better version of him in Jamie Roberts, guess what the center pairings were for the last Lions tour, and gues who had player of the tour.

Tuilagi is a basher correct. He is already a damned good one. But guess what he is more than that. Already. He can take intercepts e.g the one vs the Abs, he can pick lines e.g the try vs Wales where he did just that off a wilko pass and went over almost untouched, he can go down the wing from long range without being caught e,g the try he scored vs France in last years 6N.

So even now he is more than just a basher that you seem keen for reasons best known to yourself to want to categorise him as. WIth all of those raw materials at his disposal, the fact that he is so young and the good coaching that he will receive, he is much much more likely to evolve into a better player than he alreaddy undoubtedly is than he is to "disappear of the radar"
I can understand why you would want him to though! (which makes you very myopic) p.s this discussion is very little to do with Jamie ROberts who is an excellent player at 12.

So lets get this straight Tuillagi is great because

A. He can take intercepts e.g the one vs the Abs
Translation - He can catch a ball when thrown to him

B. He can pick lines e.g the try vs Wales where he did just that off a wilko pass and went over almost untouched.
Translation - See he can run without bashing into someone

C. he can go down the wing from long range without being caught e,g the try he scored vs France in last years 6N.
Translation - He can run quite fast

I am sorry, I can now see clearly all the stuff I was missing picard

The man is Mike Gibson on steriods and I just couldn't see it. I just feel so foolish

by R!skysports Thu 18 Apr 2013, 5:08 pm

This is getting boring, and just another boring boring England vs Wales bickering thread

Really destroying this forum

Going to lock the thread

by R!skysports Thu 18 Apr 2013, 5:08 pm

(Or can moderators lock my thread)

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