Floyd Mayweather the best ever?

by mark_england Tue 16 Apr 2013, 11:43 pm

I think history will remember him more fondly than he's actually viewed now, basically we'll realise how good he was when he isn't fighting anymore.

I personally think he's the best fighter ever. At the end of the day, Boxing goes down to not getting hit yourself, and hitting the other opponent. Floyd is the master of this; very accurate with his shots, and doesn't get hit himself. That's perfection is it not?

Castillo x2, Corrales, Gatti, Judah, De La Hoya, Hatton, Marquez, Mosley, Cotto. Probably the most impressive names on his record, few hall of famers in there, as well as some hard, tough fighters. Castillo gave him a tough fight in the first, but I'd still say Floyd won, DLH started off well, but I actually thought Floyd won that pretty comfortably, the crowd screaming when Oscar's shots weren't even landing blinkered some people's views. The rest of them on that list, all decent fighters, Floyd just completely outclassed and was on a different level. What other fighter has OUTCLASSED that many good fighters?

Having said this, after beating Guerrero I think he needs one, maybe even 2 more fights to really cement his legacy. Even if it is against a slightly shot Pacquiao, and then against Saul Alvarez. Beat them two, definitely the greatest ever in my opinion.

by Strongback Tue 16 Apr 2013, 11:46 pm

Whose alt are you?

by hazharrison Wed 17 Apr 2013, 1:34 am

I agree.

by azania Wed 17 Apr 2013, 7:17 am

by Rowley Wed 17 Apr 2013, 7:31 am

mark_england wrote:

Castillo x2, Corrales, Gatti, Judah, De La Hoya, Hatton, Marquez, Mosley, Cotto. Probably the most impressive names on his record, few hall of famers in there,

Can I be a little pedantic at this point and point out there are actually few if any hall of famers in there as in order to be inducted to the hall of fame you have to be retired five years and so most on the list are not yet eligible.

by joeyjojo618 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 7:48 am

Rowley wrote:
mark_england wrote:

Castillo x2, Corrales, Gatti, Judah, De La Hoya, Hatton, Marquez, Mosley, Cotto. Probably the most impressive names on his record, few hall of famers in there,

Can I be a little pedantic at this point and point out there are actually few if any hall of famers in there as in order to be inducted to the hall of fame you have to be retired five years and so most on the list are not yet eligible.

Thats the only complaint you are going to make regarding the original post Jeff? I've been waiting for one of our historically knowledgeable posters to go ape Poopie.

by hogey Wed 17 Apr 2013, 8:15 am

No Floyd is a great fighter, but there has been many great fighters and i would put quite a few above him.

by azania Wed 17 Apr 2013, 8:25 am

Rowley you pedant.

by milkyboy Wed 17 Apr 2013, 8:55 am

Thinking of starting a thread entitled. 'Floyd mayweather, not an all time great'. Just to freshen up the debate. 3 on the topic's not nearly enough to do the great man justice

by Rowley Wed 17 Apr 2013, 9:10 am

azania wrote:Rowley you pedant.

You're all just jealous because you did not think to point it out. Everyone loves the chance to be a pedantic tool every so often.

by TopHat24/7 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 9:19 am

Definitely a great but not the 'best ever' by a long shot (i.e. I'd have him 10-15, probs around 12).

Needed Pac on his CV to be top 10 and lay a genuine claim to 'best ever'.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 9:56 am

Look If longevity is enough for Louis to get in the top 10/20.

Then Floyd's geater longevity. unbeaten record and three at the time current P4Pers on his record surely is enough to debate whether he is or not!!

I don't understand how people are so dismissive..

It really is disgraceful..........

by Strongback Wed 17 Apr 2013, 10:03 am

Louis fought everybody and is longest reigning champ in the toughest decision there is to do it.

Louis is Top 10 on just about every historian and professional body ATG list. You're propaganda ain't going to work around here anymore kid. Your Tony Blair/Alaistar Campbell man love has seriously effected your judgement

by TopHat24/7 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 10:04 am

Is Louis top 10? Didn't think anyone ever really had him that high.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 10:05 am

Louis fought everybody and nobody...............

Mayweather fought 3 current P4pers and has been at the top longer....

end of.

by TopHat24/7 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 10:05 am

Whoops, turns out I was wrong Doh

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 10:08 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:Whoops, turns out I was wrong

Taken as read..

by TopHat24/7 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 10:10 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Louis fought everybody and nobody...............

Mayweather fought 3 current P4pers and has been at the top longer....

end of.

Louis beat Primo and Baer in '35 and lost to Charles in '50. So that's 15 yrs. Floyd has '98 to '13, so also 15 yrs - but a career prolonged by hardly ever fighting for the last 5 years or so.

So I don't see as that favours Floyd.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 10:11 am

Louis wasn't the man in 50 kiddo.............

As I don't count Ali-Holmes..............towards Ali's longevity.

by Strongback Wed 17 Apr 2013, 10:13 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Louis fought everybody and nobody...............

Mayweather fought 3 current P4pers and has been at the top longer....

end of.

Floyd didn't fight everybody. Floyd fought guys he knew he could beat. If the P4P lists were based on who made the most money Floyd would be up there but in the real word he ain't.

by TopHat24/7 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 10:14 am

And Floyd wasn't 'the man' in 2008 because he was retired and didn't fight for almost 2 yrs.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 10:15 am

Louis won the title in 37 and retired in 48...........Never thought Tories could add up..

Floyd Knew he could beat those guys I'll agree with you on that..

by TopHat24/7 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 10:19 am

So we can cut off Floyd's career at 2008 as well then since that when he retired? So we have 11 yrs vs 10 yrs. Still not in Floyd's favour.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 10:20 am

We'll cut it off then yes as he's number 1 P4P now and most of the time since!! Rolling Eyes

Was Louis the best after 48??............

by TopHat24/7 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 10:27 am

Nope.

Did he ever avoid fighting his biggest threat and only real challenger to greatness? (genuinely don't know the answer to this question)

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 10:31 am

Three top 10 P4Pers..............

Be honest you guys don't like him so you use Manny to mark him down.......

Skill....Longevity..Standing....Achievement ..Record and Fighters beat = legacy!!

He has them all..................

by TopHat24/7 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 10:43 am

Therefore I'll just do a Viccy and simply say (as per Strongy above) countless experts and surveys have him higher therefore they must be right..... Whistle

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 10:46 am

Jack Dempsey marked down is he??? Laugh

Give it up Kiddo.

by TopHat24/7 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 11:00 am

FFS gonna have to stop clicking edit instead of quote!! mad

by **owen10ozzy** Wed 17 Apr 2013, 11:09 am

I think that the OP is right in the sense that he will be remembered more fondly once he has gone.

I've never been his biggest but can appreciate him in terms of his pure skill and talent. The guy is an exceptional defensive fighter whose counter punching ability is second to none. Whilst not the most entertaining to watch, he will leave this sport with all of his senses in tact and barely a scratch on him. Surely the dream of anyone entering this dangerous sport...he also has the added bonus of having a rather large pot of cash as well.

He showed the world how to get to Ricky Hatton with the incredible counter left, showed a fantastic ability to adapt during his fight with Oscar De La Hoya and put on boxing clinics against the likes of Judah, Gatti & Marquez.

In the past 10 years he is one of only a few boxers who have been able to put what has essentially been a dying sport into the mainstream everytime he fights....something which I think is often overlooked.

However...Best Ever...I think that is a step too far.

The problem is that even with the list of names on his record he has never had that career defining fight...that one huge name on his record that puts an exclamation mark on a fighters career. Now I'm not talking about an all out war with someone where he needs to show heart or guts because lets face facts...if you have the skills to avoid that happening then why should it be held against you when it doesn't?

He never though faced someone who was right at the top of their game and when he did it was often at a weight more suited to him.

Gatti - Had lost 6 & been stopped twice before Mayweather got to him. His best years were most certainly behind him, though the performance was clinical.

Zab Judah - 3 previous losses and in his fight against Tszyu showed the mental frailties which stopped him from being amongst the very elite.

Ricky Hatton - Wasn't at Hatton's favoured weight and while he had never been beaten I don't think anyone could argue against the point he was just never as good as a Welterweight. I think that Mayweather could have really proved something had he gone down and beat him (which I think he would have). And I don't buy the argument that he couldn't have.

Juan Marquez - Much like the above point and Marquez had been hanging around a weight division lower than Mayweather whilst the American was campaigning at even lower weights.

Shane Mosely - A little past his best and this was one fight which certainly could have come a couple of years prior. But a very good display from Mayweather where he did show his recovery skills after being wobbled earlier.

Of his last 8 fights I would actually only rank 1 in his Top 3. For me Oscar, Castillo 2 and Corrales are his best victories.

He has a stellar record of that their is no question...but for me there are just far to many little marks against many of his opponents. As I said he could have fought Hatton at Light Welterweight but chose not too....he could of got to Mosley earlier than he did and then there is the Cotto argument and why he didn't want to face him at Welterweight.

Add to the fact he never fought the consensus P4P 1/2 of his era and i'm afraid I think it would be too much of a travesty to the other greats to put him above them.

He could go some way to building on his resume and really stamping his name in his next 2/3 fights (Guerrero not included as for this is another mismatch)....I don't hold not fighting Martinez against him as I think Martinez is just too big and one weight division to many. I could imagine him picking him if he looks aged in his next fight however...which I would then be reluctant to give him credit for.

For me he has to be looking at Saul Alvarez, Timothy Bradley, Danny Garcia (if he remains unbeaten) and at a stretch Amir Khan (only if he can avenge his two losses prior to a fight)..

Whilst obviously Bradley would make for a negative fight he is young, unbeaten and hungry...similar story to Garcia, who whilst considered limited is generally regarded as the best light welterweight and could well unify the division in the next 12 months. The biggest exclamation mark he could put on his resume is Saul Alvarez (should he overcome Trout) and only if it is at middleweight.

In summary....Mayweather is a fantastic fighter who will be looked back upon more fondly when gone...but he will still have his critics and has to many question marks with regards to his fight selection and the people he didn't face.

His negative nature in the ring will put him alongside the likes of Pernell Whittaker who while highly regarded are often lower down in these types of list because of their more negative nature and defensive style.

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Wed 17 Apr 2013, 11:28 am

Wheres D4 when you need him!?

by Strongback Wed 17 Apr 2013, 11:50 am

owen10ozzy wrote:I think that the OP is right in the sense that he will be remembered more fondly once he has gone.

I've never been his biggest but can appreciate him in terms of his pure skill and talent. The guy is an exceptional defensive fighter whose counter punching ability is second to none. Whilst not the most entertaining to watch, he will leave this sport with all of his senses in tact and barely a scratch on him. Surely the dream of anyone entering this dangerous sport...he also has the added bonus of having a rather large pot of cash as well.

He showed the world how to get to Ricky Hatton with the incredible counter left, showed a fantastic ability to adapt during his fight with Oscar De La Hoya and put on boxing clinics against the likes of Judah, Gatti & Marquez.

In the past 10 years he is one of only a few boxers who have been able to put what has essentially been a dying sport into the mainstream everytime he fights....something which I think is often overlooked.

However...Best Ever...I think that is a step too far.

The problem is that even with the list of names on his record he has never had that career defining fight...that one huge name on his record that puts an exclamation mark on a fighters career. Now I'm not talking about an all out war with someone where he needs to show heart or guts because lets face facts...if you have the skills to avoid that happening then why should it be held against you when it doesn't?

He never though faced someone who was right at the top of their game and when he did it was often at a weight more suited to him.

Gatti - Had lost 6 & been stopped twice before Mayweather got to him. His best years were most certainly behind him, though the performance was clinical.

Zab Judah - 3 previous losses and in his fight against Tszyu showed the mental frailties which stopped him from being amongst the very elite.

Ricky Hatton - Wasn't at Hatton's favoured weight and while he had never been beaten I don't think anyone could argue against the point he was just never as good as a Welterweight. I think that Mayweather could have really proved something had he gone down and beat him (which I think he would have). And I don't buy the argument that he couldn't have.

Juan Marquez - Much like the above point and Marquez had been hanging around a weight division lower than Mayweather whilst the American was campaigning at even lower weights.

Shane Mosely - A little past his best and this was one fight which certainly could have come a couple of years prior. But a very good display from Mayweather where he did show his recovery skills after being wobbled earlier.

Of his last 8 fights I would actually only rank 1 in his Top 3. For me Oscar, Castillo 2 and Corrales are his best victories.

He has a stellar record of that their is no question...but for me there are just far to many little marks against many of his opponents. As I said he could have fought Hatton at Light Welterweight but chose not too....he could of got to Mosley earlier than he did and then there is the Cotto argument and why he didn't want to face him at Welterweight.

Add to the fact he never fought the consensus P4P 1/2 of his era and i'm afraid I think it would be too much of a travesty to the other greats to put him above them.

He could go some way to building on his resume and really stamping his name in his next 2/3 fights (Guerrero not included as for this is another mismatch)....I don't hold not fighting Martinez against him as I think Martinez is just too big and one weight division to many. I could imagine him picking him if he looks aged in his next fight however...which I would then be reluctant to give him credit for.

For me he has to be looking at Saul Alvarez, Timothy Bradley, Danny Garcia (if he remains unbeaten) and at a stretch Amir Khan (only if he can avenge his two losses prior to a fight)..

Whilst obviously Bradley would make for a negative fight he is young, unbeaten and hungry...similar story to Garcia, who whilst considered limited is generally regarded as the best light welterweight and could well unify the division in the next 12 months. The biggest exclamation mark he could put on his resume is Saul Alvarez (should he overcome Trout) and only if it is at middleweight.

In summary....Mayweather is a fantastic fighter who will be looked back upon more fondly when gone...but he will still have his critics and has to many question marks with regards to his fight selection and the people he didn't face.

His negative nature in the ring will put him alongside the likes of Pernell Whittaker who while highly regarded are often lower down in these types of list because of their more negative nature and defensive style.

Well put together post there Owen whether people agree with your points or not.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 12:10 pm

I don't think people undrstand how hard it is to go 13 years unbeaten against good If not always great fighters....

Lewis, Tyson, Louis, Ali, Robbo....couldn't do it!!

Was Turpin great??

by TopHat24/7 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 12:12 pm

SRR fought 200 times!! Of course he lost at some point!

by Strongback Wed 17 Apr 2013, 12:14 pm

Sugar was on a jolly around Europe out partying every night. He won the rematch. Turpin was all wrong for him.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 12:15 pm

He still lost to ordinary fighters...Floyd hasn't..

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 12:17 pm

Lost to Lamotta and Turpin..........struggled with Turpin twice...

He still trained for these guys............Sorry but don't put Turpin down by saying he was out partying!!

he went 15 rounds!!! You can't do that unless your fit..

Pathetic..

by Strongback Wed 17 Apr 2013, 12:19 pm

It wasn't important to be unbeaten then. It shouldn't be now, in fact cherry picking to keep his '0' intact has hurt Floyd's legacy.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 12:20 pm

Well it wasn't important to be outboxed back then.........

Silly Floyd If he'd have had his butt handed to him....He'd definitely be Top 10....

by TopHat24/7 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 12:23 pm

No, if he'd faced and beaten (as many, incl me, backed) Manny he'd 100% be top 10.

by Strongback Wed 17 Apr 2013, 12:24 pm

Why not, without checking I'm pretty sure every guy in the Top 20 ATG's was beaten.

You sound like Frank Warren.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 12:27 pm

You change the argument all the time..

So defeats are acceptable for Robbo your overall no 1...........fighting nobodies is acceptable for Louis your heavy number 1!!

Mayweather has greater longevity....Never lost and beaten better fighters than Louis did!!

You Sir are a JOKE!!

by WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs Wed 17 Apr 2013, 12:32 pm

Can't see how he's the greatest of all time. Probably will go down between 11-20 of all time and may fall into some people's top 10 especially if he goes on to beat Canelo/Trout winner but I doubt he will fight one of them

Still doesn't have a lot of great wins to his name and will always go down in my estimation. I'm a huge fan of his, he's a real talent, and I'd probably pick him to beat all of the fights he avoided for easier fights (except Williams who would be a stylistic nightmare) like Cotto, Marg and most importantly pacquiao in the 2006-2009 era of welters

15 (or 10) years at the top is hard, but its made easier when you fight once a year against sub-par opposition

Floyd could end up top 5 fighters at both superfeather weight and Lightweight though as that was were his most impressive and beat the 2 best fighters in Corrales and Castillo

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 12:33 pm

I don't mind If he's rated 11-15...........I just want the same arguments to be applied for all fighters..........

by **owen10ozzy** Wed 17 Apr 2013, 12:40 pm

Truss....without wanting to turn this into a thread about someone else...does that

'I don't think people undrstand how hard it is to go 13 years unbeaten against good If not always great fighters....'

Also apply to the likes of Calzaghe again...where would you place him?!

I agree with you that his longevity is very impressive...but then when you have only fought 13 times in the last 10 years...not so much. In fact that's a measly excuse of a record. He has averaged 1.3 fights per year! For an all time great that is an appalling record....thats actually lower than DAVID HAYE! Who gets slaughtered for barely fighting!

When you think how much more he could have improved his record I would say his longevity actually hampers him...because it was wasted longevity.

by **88Chris05** Wed 17 Apr 2013, 1:14 pm

Well, I'd give way to absolutely nobody when it comes to my admiration of Mayweather as a boxer in the purest form. Sensational talent, one of the best anyone could ever have seen regardless of how long they've been watching the sport and, of course, his record is easily enough to make him a proper all-time great.

At the risk of upsetting Az and Truss, though, it really is an insult to some of the other greats from eras gone by to proclaim that a man who never took on his greatest and most demanded challenge is the greatest of all time. You can find whatever reasons for it you want, but if you take all of the names who are in or around contention for a top ten, fifteen or even twenty pound for pound spot, Floyd is basically the only name to have that kind of black mark hanging over him.

People point out Robinson-Burley, but that's really stretching things for me. Those two basically never even boxed in the same division while Burley was still active, and Burley wasn't the best financial option for Ray at the time, either. While many would have liked to have sene it, it was never considered THE fight which had to happen in its time and it's more with the passing of time that the fight has become known as one of boxing's big 'what if?' stories.

On the other hand, not only were Floyd and Manny in the same weight class, it was also the fight which would have likely smashed all box office records to pieces and was without question the single fight every boxing fan wanted between 2009 and 2011, to the point where the supposed 'negotiations' for the fight and the mud slinging back and forth by all involved dominated the boxing media, completely overtaking the magazines, broadcasts, forums etc.

Unforgivable that it never happened, really. And while plenty have their own theories and will get their knickers in a twist over me saying this, I'll be blunt - in my opinion, Mayweather simply didn't want the fight when it made the most sense. Nobody will ever be able to prove it either way, of course, but I find it amazing how brave and willing Floyd suddenly became in light of Manny's struggle against Marquez in late 2011 and then his 'defeat' to Bradley in summer 2012.

Anyway, I've no axe to grind with Mayweather, but he does deserve an absolute kicking for passing that one up and while his record is fantastic it doesn't read impressively enough to make him a serious candidate to be the greatest of the lot. Nevertheless, he's (marginally) behind only Whitaker for me in the past twenty-five years and is right on the cusp of my top dozen pound for pounders ever.

Truly great fighter, but not the greatest.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 17 Apr 2013, 1:30 pm

Calzaghe didn't fight the same top fighters...........

However I still think he's the best super midd of alltime...Bonafide great.

by huw Wed 17 Apr 2013, 1:57 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I don't mind If he's rated 11-15...........I just want the same arguments to be applied for all fighters..........

How can they be though Truss?

Times have changed and Floyd was never going to have around 200 fights in his career, fighting 2-3 times per month.

There just isn't a way you can compare these guys based upon records alone as there are too many variables to do so.

Floyd is a great fighter who should be in or around everyones top ten but I would struggle to find any way of placing in the top five.

by sittingringside Wed 17 Apr 2013, 2:27 pm

How many fighters that are top ten all time in their weight class has Floyd beaten? Is the number 0?

by mark_england Wed 17 Apr 2013, 3:06 pm

owen10ozzy wrote:I think that the OP is right in the sense that he will be remembered more fondly once he has gone.

I've never been his biggest but can appreciate him in terms of his pure skill and talent. The guy is an exceptional defensive fighter whose counter punching ability is second to none. Whilst not the most entertaining to watch, he will leave this sport with all of his senses in tact and barely a scratch on him. Surely the dream of anyone entering this dangerous sport...he also has the added bonus of having a rather large pot of cash as well.

He showed the world how to get to Ricky Hatton with the incredible counter left, showed a fantastic ability to adapt during his fight with Oscar De La Hoya and put on boxing clinics against the likes of Judah, Gatti & Marquez.

In the past 10 years he is one of only a few boxers who have been able to put what has essentially been a dying sport into the mainstream everytime he fights....something which I think is often overlooked.

However...Best Ever...I think that is a step too far.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Well thought out, well structured post, and great debate.

The problem is that even with the list of names on his record he has never had that career defining fight...that one huge name on his record that puts an exclamation mark on a fighters career. Now I'm not talking about an all out war with someone where he needs to show heart or guts because lets face facts...if you have the skills to avoid that happening then why should it be held against you when it doesn't?

He never though faced someone who was right at the top of their game and when he did it was often at a weight more suited to him.

Gatti - Had lost 6 & been stopped twice before Mayweather got to him. His best years were most certainly behind him, though the performance was clinical.

Zab Judah - 3 previous losses and in his fight against Tszyu showed the mental frailties which stopped him from being amongst the very elite.

Ricky Hatton - Wasn't at Hatton's favoured weight and while he had never been beaten I don't think anyone could argue against the point he was just never as good as a Welterweight. I think that Mayweather could have really proved something had he gone down and beat him (which I think he would have). And I don't buy the argument that he couldn't have.

Juan Marquez - Much like the above point and Marquez had been hanging around a weight division lower than Mayweather whilst the American was campaigning at even lower weights.

Shane Mosely - A little past his best and this was one fight which certainly could have come a couple of years prior. But a very good display from Mayweather where he did show his recovery skills after being wobbled earlier.

Of his last 8 fights I would actually only rank 1 in his Top 3. For me Oscar, Castillo 2 and Corrales are his best victories.

He has a stellar record of that their is no question...but for me there are just far to many little marks against many of his opponents. As I said he could have fought Hatton at Light Welterweight but chose not too....he could of got to Mosley earlier than he did and then there is the Cotto argument and why he didn't want to face him at Welterweight.

Add to the fact he never fought the consensus P4P 1/2 of his era and i'm afraid I think it would be too much of a travesty to the other greats to put him above them.

He could go some way to building on his resume and really stamping his name in his next 2/3 fights (Guerrero not included as for this is another mismatch)....I don't hold not fighting Martinez against him as I think Martinez is just too big and one weight division to many. I could imagine him picking him if he looks aged in his next fight however...which I would then be reluctant to give him credit for.

For me he has to be looking at Saul Alvarez, Timothy Bradley, Danny Garcia (if he remains unbeaten) and at a stretch Amir Khan (only if he can avenge his two losses prior to a fight)..

Whilst obviously Bradley would make for a negative fight he is young, unbeaten and hungry...similar story to Garcia, who whilst considered limited is generally regarded as the best light welterweight and could well unify the division in the next 12 months. The biggest exclamation mark he could put on his resume is Saul Alvarez (should he overcome Trout) and only if it is at middleweight.

In summary....Mayweather is a fantastic fighter who will be looked back upon more fondly when gone...but he will still have his critics and has to many question marks with regards to his fight selection and the people he didn't face.

His negative nature in the ring will put him alongside the likes of Pernell Whittaker who while highly regarded are often lower down in these types of list because of their more negative nature and defensive style.

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