Is Irish tribalism getting a foothold?

Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

I don't think so, but if it did, it is because there a lot of "new" fans coming to the sport. I don't mean anything derogatory by "new" only that they would still be learning about the "joys of Rugby" and will take a little while to "mature" into "seasoned rugby fans"

Also there are now 3 strong provinces with an ever improving 4th one. Add that all together (extra numbers of fans and increased success) and it could well look like an increace in what you refer to as "tribalism"

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

Aside from Sin, DOD and maybe one or two others I see very little provincial tribalism to be honest.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

Aside from Sin, DOD and maybe one or two others I see very little provincial tribalism to be honest.

Your having a laugh Ulster & Leinster fans not tribal?
It takes two to tango!

Nah I don't think so really, I hope Munster win the H-cup now, just as much as I did 10 years ago. Hope Leinster pick up Almin, and hope Ulster win Pro 12.

If Ulster arn't going to win something, I hope Leinster,Munster or Connacht win it.

I think maybe because there isn't a stand out province at present it looks like more infighting, but its the same as normal we want our own province to win first and formost, then the others. Just at present we're competeing more against each other as all 3 make later stages of comps, so it seams that we're divided, whereas in the past only one would be left and it would appear we were all united behind it.

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

Irish people are very tribal - and always have been. Comes from having had two tribes on this island for the last 800 years - you'd think we'd be able to get on after all that time!

What you need to understand is that the most popular sport's loyalties are defined by where you are from. People get slagged off in Ireland for supporting non-Irish soccer teams because there is no connection other than choice. When Munster were riding high in Europe they acquired some fans from Leinster who are thought of with contempt by Leinster fans now. Any where else people would think that is a normal thing to happen.

Its not necessarily a bad thing - the biggest sporting attendances would be gaa matches (also based on where you are from). Blue murder takes place on the pitch (i.e., its a very tough sport), but you never have any crowd trouble, terraces etc., no segregation or anything like that.

Irish people know where to draw the line.

On the subject on the development of the GAA - when the GAA was founded back in the late 1880s, faction fighting was a bit of a problem in rural Ireland and the GAA was a response to it which has always been a fairly 'robust' sport!

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

Am I right in assuming that you feel a sort of voyeristic jealousy that you are effectively sidelined when it comes to Irish provincial rivalry and that the rugby passion it generates cannot be rivaled by any grudge match your beloved Leicester are routinely involved in?

GunsGerms wrote:

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

Am I right in assuming that you feel a sort of voyeristic jealousy that you are effectively sidelined when it comes to Irish provincial rivalry and the rugby passion it generates?

It's certainly an interesting spectator sport GG. The constant paradoxes emanating from the Old Sod have fixed a certain amount of fascination to me since ~1968.

I love Ireland and I'm interested.

But I've never penetrated the mindset.

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

Nah, sure Sin e was on the old boards too .....

greytiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

Am I right in assuming that you feel a sort of voyeristic jealousy that you are effectively sidelined when it comes to Irish provincial rivalry and the rugby passion it generates?

It's certainly an interesting spectator sport GG. The constant paradoxes emanating from the Old Sod have fixed a certain amount of fascination to me since ~1968.

I love Ireland and I'm interested.

But I've never penetrated the mindset.

I dont understand the mindset of many Irish people either.

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

I think that yes it has. Without a doubt the interprovincial bashing has greatly increased from what it was on the old BBC 606.

The reasons are twofold. One is that it is not just a Munster v Leinster thing but now Ulster are a major force. However the main reason is the lack of success for the international team in contrast with the provinces.

Up until 2010 it was fine. Munster or Leinster did well in the Heineken Cups, Ireland would always finish 2nd in the 6 Nations. We'd put it down to a ref or bad luck or the old cliche "the bounce of a ball". There was little cause for real argument.

We won the 6 Nations in 2009 and Leinster joined Munster as a recent Heineken Cup winner.

What we then saw from 2010 - 2013 has been Ireland slipping from Champions down to a low where we won just 1 game this year. In that same three years we have won two more Heineken Cups including an all Irish Final.

There are more points to debate also. ROG v Sexton wasn't a debate until 2010. With the emergence of new young players there is now more debate than ever before. The debate of foreigners at the provinces was never that important until the last 2 years or so.

It has all contributed to make a bizarre cocktail where most Irish threads now descend into utter madness.

greytiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

Am I right in assuming that you feel a sort of voyeristic jealousy that you are effectively sidelined when it comes to Irish provincial rivalry and the rugby passion it generates?

It's certainly an interesting spectator sport GG. The constant paradoxes emanating from the Old Sod have fixed a certain amount of fascination to me since ~1968.

I love Ireland and I'm interested.

But I've never penetrated the mindset.

You won't be the first. Freud reckoned that the Irish were the only people/tribe that were impossible to psychoanalyse. I believe its as a result of us learning how to deal with our big next door neighbour as we've learned to never give away anything and are very diffcult to read - except other Irish people!

I blame sections of the media. I do think that some articles such as Niall Keily's now famous tripe which told a lot of lies about Leinster supporters prior to the '09 Hcup final have served to create issues between the two sets of fans where there were no issues.

Here is a link to the article:

Anyone have a link. It seems to have been removed!!!!

and a link to his subsequent pathetic attempt at an apology in which he tries to justify his comments:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/getting-close-counts-only-in-lawn-bowling-1.769038

In my opinion its journalistic ARSEonists like this that have little understanding of rugby that have added fuel to an initially very small fire which has now spread to IMO silly proportions.

This problem with brain f'articles such as Kiely's gems are that lots of Jonny-come-latelys actually believe what they read in the paper especially quality papers such as the Irish Times.

red_stag wrote:

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

I think that yes it has. Without a doubt the interprovincial bashing has greatly increased from what it was on the old BBC 606.

The reasons are twofold. One is that it is not just a Munster v Leinster thing but now Ulster are a major force. However the main reason is the lack of success for the international team in contrast with the provinces.

Up until 2010 it was fine. Munster or Leinster did well in the Heineken Cups, Ireland would always finish 2nd in the 6 Nations. We'd put it down to a ref or bad luck or the old cliche "the bounce of a ball". There was little cause for real argument.

We won the 6 Nations in 2009 and Leinster joined Munster as a recent Heineken Cup winner.

What we then saw from 2010 - 2013 has been Ireland slipping from Champions down to a low where we won just 1 game this year. In that same three years we have won two more Heineken Cups including an all Irish Final.

There are more points to debate also. ROG v Sexton wasn't a debate until 2010. With the emergence of new young players there is now more debate than ever before. The debate of foreigners at the provinces was never that important until the last 2 years or so.

It has all contributed to make a bizarre cocktail where most Irish threads now descend into utter madness.

From the outside Staggy I'd tend to agree.

The unifying brand 'Ireland' has begun to slump (with or without injury excuses/explanations) over the past two or so years.
The Provincial grasp on the HEC is weakening.

Stag* must have missed the Humphreys v Rog stuff of the early '00s. That was fairly robust (and why Ulster supporters hate ROG. ROG has written about the abuse he gets from Ulster fans in the stands when playing for Ireland).

The change happened in the early '00s when Munster became a force in rugby and could no longer be ignored. Up to that Ulster & Leinster had it all sown up between them and they tend to identify with each other (more urban based support whereas Limerick is really a big town).

Edit: *Since he is only 24, he would not have experienced it.

Yup its definitely getting worse, the media are to blame for building the thing up. It all stems from Munster tanking Leinster in 2006 and then escelated to a new level when the ladyboyz got ther own back over the turnipheads in 09.

It's ruined the national side because the boys cant see past themselves anymore....

Thank flip for the fine upstanding citizens of Connacht and Ulster.

Sin é wrote:
Irish people are very tribal - and always have been. Comes from having had two tribes on this island for the last 800 years - you'd think we'd be able to get on after all that time!

What you need to understand is that the most popular sport's loyalties are defined by where you are from. People get slagged off in Ireland for supporting non-Irish soccer teams because there is no connection other than choice. When Munster were riding high in Europe they acquired some fans from Leinster who are thought of with contempt by Leinster fans now. Any where else people would think that is a normal thing to happen.

Its not necessarily a bad thing - the biggest sporting attendances would be gaa matches (also based on where you are from). Blue murder takes place on the pitch (i.e., its a very tough sport), but you never have any crowd trouble, terraces etc., no segregation or anything like that.

Irish people know where to draw the line.

On the subject on the development of the GAA - when the GAA was founded back in the late 1880s, faction fighting was a bit of a problem in rural Ireland and the GAA was a response to it which has always been a fairly 'robust' sport!

Two tribes in Ireland over the past 800 years? I mean have you ever read a book on Irish history? Absolute tosh. You really haven't got a clue. As for "no crowd trouble" in GAA, are you actually for real? How about when a man's ear was bitten off in Tyrone? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15775193) Or fans entering the pitch to confront and nearly assault players? (http://www.joe.ie/gaa/gaa-news/huge-96-week-ban-for-guilty-party-in-limerick-county-final-confrontation-0029616-1) Or what about when Pat Spillane was assaulted by Donegal fans? (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pat-spillane-assaulted-by-donegal-fans-after-semifinal-triumph-at-croker-26895459.html) What about Joe Kernan's condemnation of basic thuggery and assault taking place during matches? There's tough sports and then outright criminal violence. (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/joe-kernan/joe-kernan-gaa-violence-has-shamed-us-all-28707647.html) Those are just to pick up a few example. Maybe less of your GAA mythology and a bit more truth might no go amiss.

Also

Sin é wrote:Freud reckoned that the Irish were the only people/tribe that were impossible to psychoanalyse

Freud never said that, its a myth perpetrated by the film The Departed.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Irish people are very tribal - and always have been. Comes from having had two tribes on this island for the last 800 years - you'd think we'd be able to get on after all that time!

What you need to understand is that the most popular sport's loyalties are defined by where you are from. People get slagged off in Ireland for supporting non-Irish soccer teams because there is no connection other than choice. When Munster were riding high in Europe they acquired some fans from Leinster who are thought of with contempt by Leinster fans now. Any where else people would think that is a normal thing to happen.

Its not necessarily a bad thing - the biggest sporting attendances would be gaa matches (also based on where you are from). Blue murder takes place on the pitch (i.e., its a very tough sport), but you never have any crowd trouble, terraces etc., no segregation or anything like that.

Irish people know where to draw the line.

On the subject on the development of the GAA - when the GAA was founded back in the late 1880s, faction fighting was a bit of a problem in rural Ireland and the GAA was a response to it which has always been a fairly 'robust' sport!

Two tribes in Ireland over the past 800 years? I mean have you ever read a book on Irish history? Absolute tosh. You really haven't got a clue. As for "no crowd trouble" in GAA, are you actually for real? How about when a man's ear was bitten off in Tyrone? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15775193) Or fans entering the pitch to confront and nearly assault players? (http://www.joe.ie/gaa/gaa-news/huge-96-week-ban-for-guilty-party-in-limerick-county-final-confrontation-0029616-1) Or what about when Pat Spillane was assaulted by Donegal fans? (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pat-spillane-assaulted-by-donegal-fans-after-semifinal-triumph-at-croker-26895459.html) What about Joe Kernan's condemnation of basic thuggery and assault taking place during matches? There's tough sports and then outright criminal violence. (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/joe-kernan/joe-kernan-gaa-violence-has-shamed-us-all-28707647.html) Those are just to pick up a few example. Maybe less of your GAA mythology and a bit more truth might no go amiss.

Also

Sin é wrote:Freud reckoned that the Irish were the only people/tribe that were impossible to psychoanalyse

Freud never said that, its a myth perpetrated by the film The Departed.

As far as I know Freud did say it, but it was in relation to the grip the church had over people that they became very insular. But know us Irish tend to use it out of context to show that we're all mad.

Does tribalism really have ups and downs?

Or is it more to do with the personalities that support rugby. What I mean is some supporters are vociferous in their manner of defending their teams and players, to the point where it seems they have a one eyed view in any matter regarding their team, be it representation to a test team, to acts on and off field.

I know Bulls supporters that will literally degrade a player and dismiss them as useless one season and then call that same player to be selected for the Springboks a year later when they are now newly contracted to the Bulls.

I think whether you are a Leinster supporter, Munster or Ulster supporter there isn't really shades of grey in the loyalty shown to your team, unless of course you are a casual rugby supporter.

The perception one creates of oneself is rather in the manner in which you choose to support your team.

I know of very few people that will support one team for 10 years and then change their allegiance.

So I ask again, does tribalism really have ups and downs, or is it more to do with HOW we support our teams?

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Irish people are very tribal - and always have been. Comes from having had two tribes on this island for the last 800 years - you'd think we'd be able to get on after all that time!

What you need to understand is that the most popular sport's loyalties are defined by where you are from. People get slagged off in Ireland for supporting non-Irish soccer teams because there is no connection other than choice. When Munster were riding high in Europe they acquired some fans from Leinster who are thought of with contempt by Leinster fans now. Any where else people would think that is a normal thing to happen.

Its not necessarily a bad thing - the biggest sporting attendances would be gaa matches (also based on where you are from). Blue murder takes place on the pitch (i.e., its a very tough sport), but you never have any crowd trouble, terraces etc., no segregation or anything like that.

Irish people know where to draw the line.

On the subject on the development of the GAA - when the GAA was founded back in the late 1880s, faction fighting was a bit of a problem in rural Ireland and the GAA was a response to it which has always been a fairly 'robust' sport!

Two tribes in Ireland over the past 800 years? I mean have you ever read a book on Irish history? Absolute tosh. You really haven't got a clue. As for "no crowd trouble" in GAA, are you actually for real? How about when a man's ear was bitten off in Tyrone? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15775193) Or fans entering the pitch to confront and nearly assault players? (http://www.joe.ie/gaa/gaa-news/huge-96-week-ban-for-guilty-party-in-limerick-county-final-confrontation-0029616-1) Or what about when Pat Spillane was assaulted by Donegal fans? (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pat-spillane-assaulted-by-donegal-fans-after-semifinal-triumph-at-croker-26895459.html) What about Joe Kernan's condemnation of basic thuggery and assault taking place during matches? There's tough sports and then outright criminal violence. (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/joe-kernan/joe-kernan-gaa-violence-has-shamed-us-all-28707647.html) Those are just to pick up a few example. Maybe less of your GAA mythology and a bit more truth might no go amiss.

Also

Sin é wrote:Freud reckoned that the Irish were the only people/tribe that were impossible to psychoanalyse

Freud never said that, its a myth perpetrated by the film The Departed.

Interesting that any trouble there is is up your neck of the woods.

OK - the lot that came in the first 400 years integrated with the locals. The lot that came in the 1600s didn't integrate with the locals and kept to their own tribe mostly.

GAA for a popular sport has very little trouble - i.e., terraces are still mixed and very little policing needed unlike soccer in the UK. Ulster is different to the rest of the country though which is hardly surprising considering the history of violence there.

Kingshu wrote: As far as I know Freud did say it, but it was in relation to the grip the church had over people that they became very insular. But know us Irish tend to use it out of context to show that we're all mad.

Kingshu, there's not a shred of evidence to suggest he actually said this. Serious researchers, including those at the Freud Museum have been utterly unable to demonstrate that the quote came from him.

Two tribes in indeed a loada mebollix. one of the many tribes that existed on the island invited the normans in originally, in a war againste one of the others, begining the suposed 800 years thing. It was basically a Leinster v Munster thing at the time.

On the general subject of a genetic difference between the peoples of both our islands. the blood is so mixed over both islands at this point that it is basically bulsh1t.

In the west of our island it is less mixed. In the east it is more mixed. for obvious reasons.

The two factions thing is more about belief in different things (not just religon) rather than blood.

Biltong wrote:Does tribalism really have ups and downs?
I know of very few people that will support one team for 10 years and then change their allegiance.

So I ask again, does tribalism really have ups and downs, or is it more to do with HOW we support our teams?

You don't get to choose your team in Ireland, the team chooses you as its based on where you are born/from/grew up.

Since Ulsters improvements as of late, I have noticed more fans from that province on here walking around like peacocks, and who can blame them, they went from mediocrity to league leaders in short space of time and now they are enjoying it, perhaps the Munsterers and the Leinsterers on here are feeling their noses being pushed out a bit.

[quote="Sin é"][quote="Hookisms and Hyperbole"]

Sin é wrote:Interesting that any trouble there is is up your neck of the woods.

OK - the lot that came in the first 400 years integrated with the locals. The lot that came in the 1600s didn't integrate with the locals and kept to their own tribe mostly.

GAA for a popular sport has very little trouble - i.e., terraces are still mixed and very little policing needed unlike soccer in the UK. Ulster is different to the rest of the country though which is hardly surprising considering the history of violence there.

"Up in my neck of the woods"? So Limerick, where a fan ran onto the pitch to assault a player, is now in Ulster. So now you can add geography to a long list of things you know absolutely nothing about.

"Their own tribe"? That is unbelievably ignorant. Even using the word "tribe" demonstrates you inane ignorance of history, politics, and social and economic mobility since the Plantation of Ulster. On a thread about tribalism you have demonstrates your own inbred and wilful ignorance about Ulster. Maybe its the pesticides in your fruit since, you know, you told us all how us Protestants like to wash our fruit before we eat it.

LordDowlais wrote:Since Ulsters improvements as of late, I have noticed more fans from that province on here walking around like peacocks, and who can blame them, they went from mediocrity to league leaders in short space of time and now they are enjoying it, perhaps the Munsterers and the Leinsterers on here are feeling their noses being pushed out a bit.

Traditionally, Ulster were always the strongest Province - its Munster who has upset the balance of power over the last 10-15 years though.

[quote="Hookisms and Hyperbole"][quote="Sin é"]

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:Interesting that any trouble there is is up your neck of the woods.

OK - the lot that came in the first 400 years integrated with the locals. The lot that came in the 1600s didn't integrate with the locals and kept to their own tribe mostly.

GAA for a popular sport has very little trouble - i.e., terraces are still mixed and very little policing needed unlike soccer in the UK. Ulster is different to the rest of the country though which is hardly surprising considering the history of violence there.

"Up in my neck of the woods"? So Limerick, where a fan ran onto the pitch to assault a player, is now in Ulster. So now you can add geography to a long list of things you know absolutely nothing about.

"Their own tribe"? That is unbelievably ignorant. Even using the word "tribe" demonstrates you inane ignorance of history, politics, and social and economic mobility since the Plantation of Ulster. On a thread about tribalism you have demonstrates your own inbred and wilful ignorance about Ulster. Maybe its the pesticides in your fruit since, you know, you told us all how us Protestants like to wash our fruit before we eat it.

What a fine example of what I've been saying. You are accusing me of being ignorant for having a different view of Ireland (i.e., we come from different tribes and have had a different education of our history).

Only an Ulsterman could be offended by the use of the word tribe in a thread about tribalism

Ulster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 26
Munster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 22
Leinster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 20
Connacht Irish Inter-Provinical Championship Winners: 2

Overall youd have to say that it's always been fairly even between the 3 provinces.

Kingshu wrote:Ulster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 26
Munster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 22
Leinster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 20
Connacht Irish Inter-Provinical Championship Winners: 2

Overall youd have to say that it's always been fairly even between the 3 provinces.

Munster have only been dominant in the last 10-12 years or so though. Up to that it was pretty much Ulster being the powerhouse of Irish rugby. Pretty much all the great players were from Ulster - Kyle, Gibson, WJ McBride. Leinster have produced Slattery & Brian O'Driscoll in that category and Munster has produced Woody & Paul O'Connell (both fairly recent).

[quote="Sin é"][quote="Hookisms and Hyperbole"]

Sin é wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:Interesting that any trouble there is is up your neck of the woods.

OK - the lot that came in the first 400 years integrated with the locals. The lot that came in the 1600s didn't integrate with the locals and kept to their own tribe mostly.

GAA for a popular sport has very little trouble - i.e., terraces are still mixed and very little policing needed unlike soccer in the UK. Ulster is different to the rest of the country though which is hardly surprising considering the history of violence there.

"Up in my neck of the woods"? So Limerick, where a fan ran onto the pitch to assault a player, is now in Ulster. So now you can add geography to a long list of things you know absolutely nothing about.

"Their own tribe"? That is unbelievably ignorant. Even using the word "tribe" demonstrates you inane ignorance of history, politics, and social and economic mobility since the Plantation of Ulster. On a thread about tribalism you have demonstrates your own inbred and wilful ignorance about Ulster. Maybe its the pesticides in your fruit since, you know, you told us all how us Protestants like to wash our fruit before we eat it.

What a fine example of what I've been saying. You are accusing me of being ignorant for having a different view of Ireland (i.e., we come from different tribes and have had a different education of our history).

Only an Ulsterman could be offended by the use of the word tribe in a thread about tribalism

I'm not accusing you of being ignorant. You are plainly ignorant and I am stating this as outright fact, ie you have no demonstrable knowledge yet put forward your own beliefs as fact. That is pure unadulterated ignorance of basic knowledge of Irish history. It's not about having different views, its that your "view" is warped, inherently wrong and cannot be backed up by any serious analysis or scholarship. To say that there were only "two tribes" in Ireland is not about different education, its about the fact that either you had absolutely no education, that you learnt nothing in school, or that you are indoctrinated into a Four Masters style historical world view that went out of fashion in the early seventeenth century. The very fact that you equate "tribe" with "tribalism" is yet another indicator of your wilful ignorance of anything remotely near fact.

And another one bites the dust. Apparently if you find an Irish thread that doesn't descend into utter shoite you win the 606V2 Prize.

[quote="Hookisms and Hyperbole"][quote="Sin é"]

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:Interesting that any trouble there is is up your neck of the woods.

OK - the lot that came in the first 400 years integrated with the locals. The lot that came in the 1600s didn't integrate with the locals and kept to their own tribe mostly.

GAA for a popular sport has very little trouble - i.e., terraces are still mixed and very little policing needed unlike soccer in the UK. Ulster is different to the rest of the country though which is hardly surprising considering the history of violence there.

"Up in my neck of the woods"? So Limerick, where a fan ran onto the pitch to assault a player, is now in Ulster. So now you can add geography to a long list of things you know absolutely nothing about.

"Their own tribe"? That is unbelievably ignorant. Even using the word "tribe" demonstrates you inane ignorance of history, politics, and social and economic mobility since the Plantation of Ulster. On a thread about tribalism you have demonstrates your own inbred and wilful ignorance about Ulster. Maybe its the pesticides in your fruit since, you know, you told us all how us Protestants like to wash our fruit before we eat it.

What a fine example of what I've been saying. You are accusing me of being ignorant for having a different view of Ireland (i.e., we come from different tribes and have had a different education of our history).

Only an Ulsterman could be offended by the use of the word tribe in a thread about tribalism

I'm not accusing you of being ignorant. You are plainly ignorant and I am stating this as outright fact, ie you have no demonstrable knowledge yet put forward your own beliefs as fact. That is pure unadulterated ignorance of basic knowledge of Irish history. It's not about having different views, its that your "view" is warped, inherently wrong and cannot be backed up by any serious analysis or scholarship. To say that there were only "two tribes" in Ireland is not about different education, its about the fact that either you had absolutely no education, that you learnt nothing in school, or that you are indoctrinated into a Four Masters style historical world view that went out of fashion in the early seventeenth century. The very fact that you equate "tribe" with "tribalism" is yet another indicator of your wilful ignorance of anything remotely near fact.

Christ on a bike, how many times can you use the word ignorance or ignorant before you forget what you are reading about.

[quote="Hookisms and Hyperbole"][quote="Sin é"]

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:Interesting that any trouble there is is up your neck of the woods.

OK - the lot that came in the first 400 years integrated with the locals. The lot that came in the 1600s didn't integrate with the locals and kept to their own tribe mostly.

GAA for a popular sport has very little trouble - i.e., terraces are still mixed and very little policing needed unlike soccer in the UK. Ulster is different to the rest of the country though which is hardly surprising considering the history of violence there.

"Up in my neck of the woods"? So Limerick, where a fan ran onto the pitch to assault a player, is now in Ulster. So now you can add geography to a long list of things you know absolutely nothing about.

"Their own tribe"? That is unbelievably ignorant. Even using the word "tribe" demonstrates you inane ignorance of history, politics, and social and economic mobility since the Plantation of Ulster. On a thread about tribalism you have demonstrates your own inbred and wilful ignorance about Ulster. Maybe its the pesticides in your fruit since, you know, you told us all how us Protestants like to wash our fruit before we eat it.

What a fine example of what I've been saying. You are accusing me of being ignorant for having a different view of Ireland (i.e., we come from different tribes and have had a different education of our history).

Only an Ulsterman could be offended by the use of the word tribe in a thread about tribalism

I'm not accusing you of being ignorant. You are plainly ignorant and I am stating this as outright fact, ie you have no demonstrable knowledge yet put forward your own beliefs as fact.

Which is it now ?

Look, for the sake of everyone else, I'll leave this thread now.

I have to say I'm finding Hookism's posts absolutely hilarious.

Sin é wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Ulster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 26
Munster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 22
Leinster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 20
Connacht Irish Inter-Provinical Championship Winners: 2

Overall youd have to say that it's always been fairly even between the 3 provinces.

Munster have only been dominant in the last 10-12 years or so though. Up to that it was pretty much Ulster being the powerhouse of Irish rugby. Pretty much all the great players were from Ulster - Kyle, Gibson, WJ McBride. Leinster have produced Slattery & Brian O'Driscoll in that category and Munster has produced Woody & Paul O'Connell (both fairly recent).

The Irish Inter-Provincial Championships stopped with the Celtic league, so Munsters 10-12 years do not count in thier 22 wins.
Munster, Leinster and Ulster have always been about equal. Munster did dominate 2000-2008 ish, but it wasn't that they came from nowhere to do it, as traditionally they had won nearly as much as Ulster, and slighty more than Leinster. So a Munster dominance didn't really come out of the Blue.

Now if it had been Connacht that reached 4 h-cup finals and won two, that would have been a surprise, and upset Munster,Leinster and Ulster fans, with how come they can do that and we can't.

red_stag wrote:And another one bites the dust. Apparently if you find an Irish thread that doesn't descend into utter shoite you win the 606V2 Prize.

Typical Munster sarcasm...

Sin é wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Ulster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 26
Munster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 22
Leinster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 20
Connacht Irish Inter-Provinical Championship Winners: 2

Overall youd have to say that it's always been fairly even between the 3 provinces.

Munster have only been dominant in the last 10-12 years or so though. Up to that it was pretty much Ulster being the powerhouse of Irish rugby. Pretty much all the great players were from Ulster - Kyle, Gibson, WJ McBride. Leinster have produced Slattery & Brian O'Driscoll in that category and Munster has produced Woody & Paul O'Connell (both fairly recent).

I think you could add Syd Millar from Ulster and Tony O'Reilly from Leinster to that list. Both IRB hall of famers.

GunsGerms wrote:

greytiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

Am I right in assuming that you feel a sort of voyeristic jealousy that you are effectively sidelined when it comes to Irish provincial rivalry and the rugby passion it generates?

It's certainly an interesting spectator sport GG. The constant paradoxes emanating from the Old Sod have fixed a certain amount of fascination to me since ~1968.

I love Ireland and I'm interested.

But I've never penetrated the mindset.

I dont understand the mindset of many Irish people either.

Dont feel bad you're in the company of some of the greatest minds - Freud "Irish people impervious psychoanalysis"

We are a clannish bunch, and as an Island, have only been united under (indigenous rule) for a brief time back in the 11th century, but even then the reach of the Ard Ri (first among equals) was questionable.

[quote="Hookisms and Hyperbole"][quote="Sin é"]

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:Interesting that any trouble there is is up your neck of the woods.

OK - the lot that came in the first 400 years integrated with the locals. The lot that came in the 1600s didn't integrate with the locals and kept to their own tribe mostly.

GAA for a popular sport has very little trouble - i.e., terraces are still mixed and very little policing needed unlike soccer in the UK. Ulster is different to the rest of the country though which is hardly surprising considering the history of violence there.

"Up in my neck of the woods"? So Limerick, where a fan ran onto the pitch to assault a player, is now in Ulster. So now you can add geography to a long list of things you know absolutely nothing about.

"Their own tribe"? That is unbelievably ignorant. Even using the word "tribe" demonstrates you inane ignorance of history, politics, and social and economic mobility since the Plantation of Ulster. On a thread about tribalism you have demonstrates your own inbred and wilful ignorance about Ulster. Maybe its the pesticides in your fruit since, you know, you told us all how us Protestants like to wash our fruit before we eat it.

Back away from the abyss......

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Ulster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 26
Munster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 22
Leinster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 20
Connacht Irish Inter-Provinical Championship Winners: 2

Overall youd have to say that it's always been fairly even between the 3 provinces.

Munster have only been dominant in the last 10-12 years or so though. Up to that it was pretty much Ulster being the powerhouse of Irish rugby. Pretty much all the great players were from Ulster - Kyle, Gibson, WJ McBride. Leinster have produced Slattery & Brian O'Driscoll in that category and Munster has produced Woody & Paul O'Connell (both fairly recent).

I think you could add Syd Millar from Ulster and Tony O'Reilly from Leinster to that list. Both IRB hall of famers.

Is that the Tony Ward from Leinster that played in the "Alone it stands" match for Munster against the All Blacks in 1978? How very dare you!

Don't think Wardy is remotely in that company. He's not even as good as Rog.

Kings,

I dont think Munster ever really held their own though, Inter pro titles aside, the head to head versus Leinster was demonstrably in Leinster favour over time, with the past 15 of Munster success putting it n a better light on it (undone a lot since the 2009 HC S/F where i think Leinster have won 8 of the last 10 meetings ?! )

What Munster did to help create a veneer of success/ease the pain of losing was to compete pretty well with touring sides, when Int sides used to play mid week games. The famous All Blacks win in 1978 is bolstered by wins over Australia and South Africa over the years too. i am too lazy to look it up but i think Munster as a province has the best record against such teams of the 4 provinces (and a narrow loss in 2009 to the AB's followed by the win over Aus in 2011 have perpetuated that impression)

Back to Tribalism, well, yes and no. Rugby has had a sustained run of interest in the national mindset (and for the pedants out there by that particular use of the word national, read the whole island and all our divided peoples, media outlets, sporting fans, non sporting citizenship, domesticated livestock, domestic creates and general flora and fauna) With such focus, there has been an increasing demand for success on the club and international scene. As we are able to individually and collectively compete at club level, the under performance (in respect of club v country comparison, not an assertion of a "right" to Int success because of good club sides, lest i be accused of arrogance) at the Int level inevitably leads to Trbalism; many a fan has a part of them believe that if Deccie (and whomever else you care to mention) had selected an all Ulster/Leinster/Munster team (delete as appropriate) such a provincial team in green jerseys would definately have done better in any game ever that you care to mention.

Now, most of us are rational most of the time and understand that that probably wouldnt be the case and that a hybrid of the provinces is, indeed, the best ireland team available, not a rebranded provincial side.

But when a team loses, everyone will come on and prop their player for x position as the guy there was awful etc. I mean, that happens even when x player had an amazing game and we won. That is how fans work the world over. I mean, quite literally the part of the brain that is repsonsible for being a fan/tribal memeber/policitcal affiliation (by this I mean our inate societal politics of the tribe/family/community etc, not our actual electoral politics, though the two are not unrelated) is governed by the IRRATIONAL section of our mind. Basically, it makes no sense to support only one team, as that team will not always be succesful. Yet we vilify the disloyal ship jumpers etc.

But ye, C'mon Munster, let us beat those Lady Boyz and stoic Nordies! Woot.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Ulster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 26
Munster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 22
Leinster Irish Inter-Provincial Championships Winners: 20
Connacht Irish Inter-Provinical Championship Winners: 2

Overall youd have to say that it's always been fairly even between the 3 provinces.

Munster have only been dominant in the last 10-12 years or so though. Up to that it was pretty much Ulster being the powerhouse of Irish rugby. Pretty much all the great players were from Ulster - Kyle, Gibson, WJ McBride. Leinster have produced Slattery & Brian O'Driscoll in that category and Munster has produced Woody & Paul O'Connell (both fairly recent).

I think you could add Syd Millar from Ulster and Tony O'Reilly from Leinster to that list. Both IRB hall of famers.

Is that the Tony Ward from Leinster that played in the "Alone it stands" match for Munster against the All Blacks in 1978? How very dare you!

Don't think Wardy is remotely in that company. He's not even as good as Rog.

Im confused. Did I not say Tony O'Reilly? All time top try scorer for the BaBas and IRB hall of famer. No mention of Tony Ward.

I was stirring it. You didn't say Wardy and Shin A didn't say what I quoted him as either..... In fact he has sworn off this thread, so he can't even come back at me.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:I was stirring it. You didn't say Wardy and Shin A didn't say what I quoted him as either..... In fact he has sworn off this thread, so he can't even come back at me.

Dont blame him. The wolf pack are out on this thread.

A thread on The Irish?

Okay, let me begin...............................................................................

It all started (the fights, that is) when God didn't get to finish Gr Britain on the sixth day. So with a little bit of mala (plasticine), He put a smidgin of it beside Gr Britain on the seventh morning but...well, he fell asleep of course and left the Irish sea there where land should have been.
Lucifer, who was still a good angel at the time, called the new splodge Ireland.......and laughed evily for the very first time.

"The reason that England was never able to solve The Irish Question was because every time that England thought it was nearly going to get the answer the Irish changed the question".
Sellar and Yateman - 1066 And All That

On a more accurate historical basis Irish interprovincal rivalries go back to the earliest recorded history/mythology of the country, the folk legends of Cuchuallain, the Tain and so on. IRRC from my history lessons the area around the court of the Irish High King was classed a seperate province in order to provide a place where the various provincial rulers could meet in a neutral space.

Of course later developments in history influnenced the spread (or otherwise) of rugby - the adoption of rugby by the Catholic schools for the Anglo-Irish middle/upper classes in the same way as the English public schools, the stronger British influence in the north, the Celtic revial and the growth of organised GAA (and the ban on "foreign" sports), the natural desire of a newly independent country not to play the "colonists" games, the postiive of keeping a single IRFU after partition unlike other football which meant cross border games all through the troubles, the fact that rugby was primarly a middle class sport kept the more extreme political characters out of it and the fact that from time to time we have been fortunate to produce some of the best rugby players in the world.

The interprovincial rivalry is the sign of a healthy game in Ireland.

Irish Londoner wrote:
On a more accurate historical basis Irish interprovincal rivalries go back to the earliest recorded history/mythology of the country, the folk legends of Cuchuallain, the Tain and so on. IRRC from my history lessons the area around the court of the Irish High King was classed a seperate province in order to provide a place where the various provincial rulers could meet in a neutral space.

Quite true. The Provinces were known as Cúige. (or a fifth in English)Cúige Laighean (Leinster) Cúige Mumhan (Munster) for example.

The fifth one was Cúige Mhi (Middle in Irish) Anglicised as Meath. Then split into Meath and Westmeath in the middle ages. It was the Province of the High King (Ard Ri) Now part of Leinster. One of the reasons we now have 12 counties in Leinster.

So if we all light a Pascal Fire on Tara hill, Sin é will be at peace with Leinster?

It's worth a shot I suppose. Not that Meath is a very Neutral place to be these days for Leinster Dubs. It could still kick off, even after Sin é toddles off whistling Molly Malone.

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

Yes, but certainly not in a bad way. I wouldn't conflate rivalry with antagonism. As for why, I would suggest that it is attributed to Ulster and Connacht improving markedly and Ulster in particular disrupting what was for a time, very much a two horse race. Now three provinces are competing in Europe, at approximately the same level, with Connacht only slightly behind, inevitably there is more scope for supporters of each province to directly compare their team's performance. In turn, this leads to a greater and more spirited debate as regards who should get into the Ireland side.

Monkeyan wrote:

greytiger wrote:Over the past couple of years has inter-provincial rivalry increased?

It seems to on the 606v2 board compared with the BBC original.

And if so, what's the reason?

Yes, but certainly not in a bad way. I wouldn't conflate rivalry with antagonism. As for why, I would suggest that it is attributed to Ulster and Connacht improving markedly and Ulster in particular disrupting what was for a time, very much a two horse race. Now three provinces are competing in Europe, at approximately the same level, with Connacht only slightly behind, inevitably there is more scope for supporters of each province to directly compare their team's performance. In turn, this leads to a greater and more spirited debate as regards who should get into the Ireland side.

Thats the diplomatic version of events.